Yeah its 3% of your defense not 3% damage reduction, on my cleric it was about 0.75% Damage reduction.
Defense is a bit of an oddball stat in all MMOs. Without getting math wizard on everyone defense tends to become more valuable the more you stack it, ie 53% defense is alot better than 50% defense, 13% defense is only a bit better than 10% defense. That's why in general the defense stat has heavy diminishing returns/hard cap in all MMOs.
So to make the short of it, 3% defense is going to largely be worthless to a Cleric (let's pretend they are tanks) whereas 3% defense to a GF is a big deal.
Dwarf is the Tank race for sure. The problem is I hate playing dwarves /duck. So Ill be rolling Human.
Ducking won't do much against dwarf-defenders - they'll hit ya low anyway.
Personally, I'm going with a Tiefling - some friends and I are planning on grouping up through pretty much the whole game, and I've been designated as the rogue, and I just can't say no to 6% extra damage below 50% health when my job will be to drop bosses ASAP - that 6% isn't much against trash mobs, but against bosses, who are below 50% for quite a while? Yep, I can see it being of use.
I just hope they add a few more horn options.
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
Personally, I'm going with a Tiefling ... I just hope they add a few more horn options.
I'm considering to go with Tiefling for my Cleric, but it's .. difficult. Human is very obviously the better choice, but on the flip side, I need to like the character, and humans are so generic. Reminds me of back in 2005 when I played Night Elf priest in WoW when it was the worst choice, with dwarf being the best ... but you couldn't have paid me to play a dwarf!
With the GWF it is easier. Tiefling is a great choice here, quite possibly better than human even. But with the Cleric .. oh well. Anyone care to convince me that a Tiefling DC is just fine?
It's the tail. I can't play a feral cat in this game, so I at least want a tail!
leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I'll probably be a halfling. Those 10% CC resist are awesome.
Humans don't call my attention, I love the +2 in two ability from other races.
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therealkyriellMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I devlop character concepts and play them, regardless of any bonuses acquired. RPing characters with actual weaknesses is fun, and the archetypal dwarf warrior is just as fun as a human warrior (some would say more fun) despite not being "as good stat-wise".
Back in the day of pencil and paper D&D, we played concepts, not numbers, and we sneered down our noses at those "munchkins" who spent hours tweaking their characters for maximum efficiency.
Its no fun to RP the hopelessly romantic half-elven paladin with a vow of celibacy that cripples his faith in a party with a walking god who can destroy every enemy on the field with a blink of his eyes.
I will probably play a human or a half-elf... for concept. I want to play an Aasimar Cleric, but the Aasimar, nor the cleric type I would play, are not available yet.
Back in the day of pencil and paper D&D, we played concepts, not numbers, and we sneered down our noses at those "munchkins" who spent hours tweaking their characters for maximum efficiency.
The "problem" is that Neverwinter is also a MMO, not just a RPG. It has competitive aspects in both PvP and PvE (damage score boards, etc.). A good player with a sub-optimal race choice will do better than a poor player with a perfect race pick, but everything else being the same, the race can make the difference. As mentioned, back in WoW when it was new, I went with the race I wanted for my priest, instead of the best option. As a result, I had to bench myself for some encounters (because I had no Fear Ward, which was required for some raid bosses).
But I don't see anything like this here and the differences in efficiency seem more marginal. I agree that the experience matters more than the numbers, which is why I consider the Tiefling for the Devout Cleric (I also like the contrast from a RP perspective). If I dislike my character or constantly wish I had chosen something that visually or story-wise appeals more, I will eventually lose interest in the game. I imagine it's the same for most people who are not complete munchkins. (This isn't an e-sport where optimal efficiency is required.)
DnD veterans will throw up their arms, but this is why I prefer systems where races do not come with pre-defined bonuses and the player can customize their character in all aspects. But my PnP background is Paranoia and the German DSA system (The Dark Eye, I believe it is called in English), and my exposure to DnD was only in the 2E days and then through computer games (BG1/2, PS:T, ToEE, NWN1/2, etc.).
leissesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
I never got problems at creating my characters in PnP. I can create a good background for nearly any character that I want to play.
Once I had no idea of what to make for a game I was joining just for a few sessions at a group level 10 (D&D3.5) and instead of choosing my class I rolled dice twice to get randomly the classes and levels of each. In the end I played a female Paladin 6/Mage 4 and wrote more story for my character than the whole group did to theirs. That girl got a great personality and gave me few but good moments (3 sessions only).
I'm torn between a High elf and a tiefling for my CW
Shiznit only 29 hours to make that decision:)
I had the same problem. I decided to make both. A tiefling DPS focused wizard and an elf CC focused wizard. Different stats, different class abilities, different powers, different feats, different paragon paths and different gear focus. Should be fun. The best of both worlds!
---
On the cleric side, I'm going half-elf. At first because I wanted WIS, but since then I changed my mind on wisdom but I like the look of a half-elf cleric. And humans are borringgggg as all hell.
Drow for rogue because I haven't seen 100% what the bonuses are and the ones I heard lend well to my rogue build. And I just have to have a drow :P. A drow wizard would be awesome too, but 3 wizards is a bit much.
I actually like half-orcs and halflings so I'd use those races if I ever played GWF or GF.
Orc TR
Tiefling DC / CW
Human GWF (defense lends to power)
Dwarf GF
imo
I would say half-elven DC, but the rest I agree with. Also I think there is a very viable halfling TR build.
In all it's not going to matter because the bonuses are so small that player skill and rng will shadow those differences. Humans overall aren't as great as they seem.
I rarely pick a race for my class because of the perks it brings, but rather how it fits the character.
If you pick a race you don't really wanna play because its racials are a "little bit" better then the race you really wanted, then enjoy your misery I'm gonna play a TR, and I'm either gonna go drow, Orc or halfling. I'll def know once I hit char creation and get to mess around alittle with the char customization :]
I'll probably be a halfling. Those 10% CC resist are awesome.
I'll be going halfling GF, CON/DEX. 3% deflect is good and the dex bonus adds more. 10% CC is huge too, CW is brutal against us in PVP and there is a lot of CC going on in PvP in general.
Humans get those 3 extra Heroic perks, so wouldn't that make human the best race? Get to lvl cap, reset all your Heroic points and spent those 3 extras on the high lvl perks?
Wouldn't those 3 extra Heroic points end up being better than +2 to stats or something else that other races might offer? Those 3 extra Heroic points would make quite the difference later on in the game.
I wanted to play something else, but in the end, those 3 heroic points are just too good not to go for it. Any thoughts on this?
I <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> halfling as trickster rogue just because they fit the part I Don't worry about stats at lvl
1 end game equip is all that matters.
Blue, green, grey, white, or black; smooth, ruffled, or mountainous; that ocean is not silent.
H. P. Lovecraft
I <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> halfling as trickster rogue just because they fit the part I Don't worry about stats at lvl
1 end game equip is all that matters.
Everyone told me "Race doesn't matter just play what u want!" when I made my Orc Hunter in WoW too. Then I got to max level got a lil bit of gear and out damaged everyone in my guild 99% of the time because I was the only orc hunter and "Blood Fury" and "Command" orc racials were amazing. That said I think for TR either Half Orc or Tiefling will be the best choice for pure damage output. Possibly Drow but as far as I know nobody knows for sure what their racials are yet except maybe alpha testers but they can't say :P
Moral of the story: People that say "Race doesn't matter!" are casual players not interested in min/max. Nothing wrong with that but if you want to min/max it usually does matter.
Humans get those 3 extra Heroic perks, so wouldn't that make human the best race? Get to lvl cap, reset all your Heroic points and spent those 3 extras on the high lvl perks?
Wouldn't those 3 extra Heroic points end up being better than +2 to stats or something else that other races might offer? Those 3 extra Heroic points would make quite the difference later on in the game.
I wanted to play something else, but in the end, those 3 heroic points are just too good not to go for it. Any thoughts on this?
This isn't too far afield of how humans performed in D&D, both 3.5 and 4th. Their bonuses and versatility make them a great option mechanically, no matter what they do. It is what keeps humans from being overshadowed by other races, that typically have more going on for them in terms of being different and more mysterious.
it makes it so you can spend 8 on the last teir (of course you can spend the extra 3 anywhere, 9% max hp etc)
Greater weapon fighter 3% crit 15% better crits (6 points 2 extra)
Control wizard 5% more damage and gain 3% more stats for your entire team.
Cleric points are everywhere gain 9% more dine power, 3% crit, you really have to look, this class might be the only maybe.
rogue 15% more stats from str, stealth lasts 12% longer, at wills deal 9% more damage. one of those 3 choices.
guardian fighter your attacker deals 3% less damage, defense and ac are 15% more effective, duration of your cc's by 15% another can go everywhere you need to go.
I have a hard time picking anything other than human.
This means that humans are not THAT important to clerics? I wanted to roll a HE, but after many readings I was inclined to pick a human because people always say how important the extra feats are.
That's pretty much correct, there are very few combinations of race/class better than human/whatever. Of note, though, the Half-Orc makes great TR.
But it really depends on how you want to spend your feat points. For instance, I found the three extra feat points largely fluff for a GF. The base amount for other races was enough to get everything I wanted, so I opted for a Tiefling a.) because I wanted a tiefling and b.) because the extra 5% damage to targets -50% health is a pretty big DPS boost that can't be obtained with those 3 feat points anywhere
Min/maxers will probably go human for just about everything, which I guess is okay because even in FR humans are supposed to be the most prevalent species, but since in many cases the three feat points are largely superfluous or make such a small difference that can be overcome with good gear/gameplay, the decision for a race remains largely cosmetic.
Still, I wouldn't mind some minor changes for racial bonuses adjust for balance, such as human extra feat points being reduced to 2, and the +1% gold find for Half-Elves is laughably terrible.
Ran, the same logic applies to GWF? Is it worth dropping humans for tieflings for more damage?
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lexthegreatMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Ran, the same logic applies to GWF? Is it worth dropping humans for tieflings for more damage?
Really your best bet is to check the wiki and see what feats you would be interested in.
The Human is a very solid choice for a lot of the current classes, and I would go as far as saying they are "the best choice" for some of them. Those 3 extra feats can really turn into something amazing, and often overshadow the minor stat increases/abilities of other races.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited April 2013
All I can really tell you, is to go here http://ricardo.ishibashi.com.br/neverwinter/ and plan out your feats. After doing that, decide if your character would benefit more from 3 feat points, or from a bonus offered by a different race. In some cases, you simply have enough feats already, and a more direct bonus to a stat or ability is more effective. In others, 3 feats helps to round out the build.
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cihuacoatlMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited April 2013
For GF, I have been looking at Human very closing and comparing it to the other 2 best pick options Dwarf and Halfling
What I did was I went through as spent my 20 points into my Heroic Feats...
Then looked at what was remaining and tried to pick the best 3 places to put my points after this...
I can say without a doubt Human doesn't even come close for GF... these were my best options
Strength Focus - 15% to effective Str (as human your effective Str will be at most 6%) 15% of 6% is ~.85% - (less than 1 str for 3 points) Best case scenario you might invest 11 points into Str and end up with 2% in the end. Still better off as a different race...
Power Attack - 6% more damage to your Encounter/At-Will attacks (While this has value I cannot see this being better for a Tank than what either Halfling or Dwarf get)... and if your going damage GF then your better off going Orc.
Pin Down - 15% increase to Prone duration... I am not sure on this one... How much time does this really add?
Yes there are other Feats however all the 'good ones' that people listed above like 9% more health... your going to pick up with your base 20 and will have no value added. I have a hard time seeing were 3 Feats can hardly equal +2 to Dex or Str
Now perhaps I am under estimating the value of 3% more defense... verse resists to knock/repel & resist DOT or 3% deflect\10% CC
Thoughts... I honestly thing Dwarf and Halfling are much better options for GF placing Human in 3rd place
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
whatever happened to just creating a race/class combo you would enjoy embodying?
I'm obviously not a min/maxer; just want to enjoy some story and adventuring, and when it comes to pvp, I'll still have fun sloggin' through whatever situations are slung my way.
whatever happened to just creating a race/class combo you would enjoy embodying?
I'm obviously not a min/maxer; just want to enjoy some story and adventuring, and when it comes to pvp, I'll still have fun sloggin' through whatever situations are slung my way.
This echoes my personal feel as well.
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iamviperswhipMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 14
edited April 2013
It's not as marked of a difference in this game as say in DDO, so just play what you want to RP, at most you might be 2% different, and if you play with people who care about that, well, that's up to you.
Comments
3% less damage taken, always, and 3 more talent points. spend them on toughness for 9% more hp!
Defense is a bit of an oddball stat in all MMOs. Without getting math wizard on everyone defense tends to become more valuable the more you stack it, ie 53% defense is alot better than 50% defense, 13% defense is only a bit better than 10% defense. That's why in general the defense stat has heavy diminishing returns/hard cap in all MMOs.
So to make the short of it, 3% defense is going to largely be worthless to a Cleric (let's pretend they are tanks) whereas 3% defense to a GF is a big deal.
Ducking won't do much against dwarf-defenders - they'll hit ya low anyway.
Personally, I'm going with a Tiefling - some friends and I are planning on grouping up through pretty much the whole game, and I've been designated as the rogue, and I just can't say no to 6% extra damage below 50% health when my job will be to drop bosses ASAP - that 6% isn't much against trash mobs, but against bosses, who are below 50% for quite a while? Yep, I can see it being of use.
I just hope they add a few more horn options.
its 3% defense, not 3% damage reduction on my cleric it resulted in a 0.75% damage reduction at level 50~
I'm considering to go with Tiefling for my Cleric, but it's .. difficult. Human is very obviously the better choice, but on the flip side, I need to like the character, and humans are so generic. Reminds me of back in 2005 when I played Night Elf priest in WoW when it was the worst choice, with dwarf being the best ... but you couldn't have paid me to play a dwarf!
With the GWF it is easier. Tiefling is a great choice here, quite possibly better than human even. But with the Cleric .. oh well. Anyone care to convince me that a Tiefling DC is just fine?
It's the tail. I can't play a feral cat in this game, so I at least want a tail!
Humans don't call my attention, I love the +2 in two ability from other races.
Back in the day of pencil and paper D&D, we played concepts, not numbers, and we sneered down our noses at those "munchkins" who spent hours tweaking their characters for maximum efficiency.
Its no fun to RP the hopelessly romantic half-elven paladin with a vow of celibacy that cripples his faith in a party with a walking god who can destroy every enemy on the field with a blink of his eyes.
I will probably play a human or a half-elf... for concept. I want to play an Aasimar Cleric, but the Aasimar, nor the cleric type I would play, are not available yet.
Shiznit only 29 hours to make that decision:)
The "problem" is that Neverwinter is also a MMO, not just a RPG. It has competitive aspects in both PvP and PvE (damage score boards, etc.). A good player with a sub-optimal race choice will do better than a poor player with a perfect race pick, but everything else being the same, the race can make the difference. As mentioned, back in WoW when it was new, I went with the race I wanted for my priest, instead of the best option. As a result, I had to bench myself for some encounters (because I had no Fear Ward, which was required for some raid bosses).
But I don't see anything like this here and the differences in efficiency seem more marginal. I agree that the experience matters more than the numbers, which is why I consider the Tiefling for the Devout Cleric (I also like the contrast from a RP perspective). If I dislike my character or constantly wish I had chosen something that visually or story-wise appeals more, I will eventually lose interest in the game. I imagine it's the same for most people who are not complete munchkins. (This isn't an e-sport where optimal efficiency is required.)
DnD veterans will throw up their arms, but this is why I prefer systems where races do not come with pre-defined bonuses and the player can customize their character in all aspects. But my PnP background is Paranoia and the German DSA system (The Dark Eye, I believe it is called in English), and my exposure to DnD was only in the 2E days and then through computer games (BG1/2, PS:T, ToEE, NWN1/2, etc.).
Once I had no idea of what to make for a game I was joining just for a few sessions at a group level 10 (D&D3.5) and instead of choosing my class I rolled dice twice to get randomly the classes and levels of each. In the end I played a female Paladin 6/Mage 4 and wrote more story for my character than the whole group did to theirs. That girl got a great personality and gave me few but good moments (3 sessions only).
---
On the cleric side, I'm going half-elf. At first because I wanted WIS, but since then I changed my mind on wisdom but I like the look of a half-elf cleric. And humans are borringgggg as all hell.
Drow for rogue because I haven't seen 100% what the bonuses are and the ones I heard lend well to my rogue build. And I just have to have a drow :P. A drow wizard would be awesome too, but 3 wizards is a bit much.
I actually like half-orcs and halflings so I'd use those races if I ever played GWF or GF.
Decubis: Dwarf Guardian Fighter: lvl 60
Demic: Human Devoted Cleric: lvl 60
Server: Beholder Guild: The Unnamed
Hear hear!
I would say half-elven DC, but the rest I agree with. Also I think there is a very viable halfling TR build.
In all it's not going to matter because the bonuses are so small that player skill and rng will shadow those differences. Humans overall aren't as great as they seem.
If you pick a race you don't really wanna play because its racials are a "little bit" better then the race you really wanted, then enjoy your misery
I'll be going halfling GF, CON/DEX. 3% deflect is good and the dex bonus adds more. 10% CC is huge too, CW is brutal against us in PVP and there is a lot of CC going on in PvP in general.
I <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> halfling as trickster rogue just because they fit the part I Don't worry about stats at lvl
1 end game equip is all that matters.
H. P. Lovecraft
Moral of the story: People that say "Race doesn't matter!" are casual players not interested in min/max. Nothing wrong with that but if you want to min/max it usually does matter.
This isn't too far afield of how humans performed in D&D, both 3.5 and 4th. Their bonuses and versatility make them a great option mechanically, no matter what they do. It is what keeps humans from being overshadowed by other races, that typically have more going on for them in terms of being different and more mysterious.
This means that humans are not THAT important to clerics? I wanted to roll a HE, but after many readings I was inclined to pick a human because people always say how important the extra feats are.
Ran, the same logic applies to GWF? Is it worth dropping humans for tieflings for more damage?
Really your best bet is to check the wiki and see what feats you would be interested in.
The Human is a very solid choice for a lot of the current classes, and I would go as far as saying they are "the best choice" for some of them. Those 3 extra feats can really turn into something amazing, and often overshadow the minor stat increases/abilities of other races.
What I did was I went through as spent my 20 points into my Heroic Feats...
Then looked at what was remaining and tried to pick the best 3 places to put my points after this...
I can say without a doubt Human doesn't even come close for GF... these were my best options
Strength Focus - 15% to effective Str (as human your effective Str will be at most 6%) 15% of 6% is ~.85% - (less than 1 str for 3 points) Best case scenario you might invest 11 points into Str and end up with 2% in the end. Still better off as a different race...
Power Attack - 6% more damage to your Encounter/At-Will attacks (While this has value I cannot see this being better for a Tank than what either Halfling or Dwarf get)... and if your going damage GF then your better off going Orc.
Pin Down - 15% increase to Prone duration... I am not sure on this one... How much time does this really add?
Yes there are other Feats however all the 'good ones' that people listed above like 9% more health... your going to pick up with your base 20 and will have no value added. I have a hard time seeing were 3 Feats can hardly equal +2 to Dex or Str
Now perhaps I am under estimating the value of 3% more defense... verse resists to knock/repel & resist DOT or 3% deflect\10% CC
Thoughts... I honestly thing Dwarf and Halfling are much better options for GF placing Human in 3rd place
I'm obviously not a min/maxer; just want to enjoy some story and adventuring, and when it comes to pvp, I'll still have fun sloggin' through whatever situations are slung my way.
This echoes my personal feel as well.
--Part 1: Spells and Coin (NW-DHM3XQVQK)
--Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
--Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)
-One Shots
--The Wizard of Eldeur (NW-DRKQNE4S7)