I leveled my control wizard to 50. Here's a few issues that I see with the class:
Control: Control Wizards aren't the best control class. Trickster Rouges are much more effective at CC with one ability than a Control Wizard with several.
DPS: Control Wizards aren't top dog here either. Rouges do more single target DPS, Great Weapon Fighters do more AoE. Control Wizard mechanics are also more complex. Unfortunately, the reward for mastering those mechanics is that you get closer to the effectiveness of the other classes, not surpass them (assuming comparable player skill).
I found the fact that the rogue shadow ability was such a good cc compared to anything the CW has to be one of the greatest mysteries of the game. Its hard to see how something like that can get through all the way to a final beta version. By the time my shadow was used up I had usually killed all the mobs because i also hit really hard. It's like a 10 sec aoe confuse, just totally weird that the CW cc is so much weaker. All the more so when combined with the other points you mention.
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wheelercubMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 15Arc User
edited March 2013
I decided to try a Control Wizard last night at the last minute and before level 10, I felt weak and very underpowered as I learned how to play the class. I was constantly worried about the number of potions I had remaining, and my "control" skills felt lacking. However, after I reached level 10, the game completely changed due to Spell Mastery (Tab) skill. My physical health felt low, but suddenly all my "weak" skills had the option to become overpowered and deadly just by moving them to the Tab slot. So I moved the Chill Strike (I think that's the name) into my Spell Mastery Tab slot and it made this ~11s skill explode in a decent sized AOE, damaging all nearby enemies, and freezing the main target for a second or two. Thanks to it's extremely fast cooldown, this became my main interrupt in big fights, mixed with Ray of Frost, Pushback, and that skill that levitates enemies for a few seconds (which became my emergency skill). When I got my rotation down, I was able to solo group fights of 5 or more enemies with no problem as long as only 2 of them were really tough and the rest were trash mobs. In fights where I pulled 3 or more tough enemies, I had a little trouble and had to either run or be saved by players passing by. However when it came to fighting super tough bosses, I could easily solo them by keeping them stunned, levitated, pushed back, or frozen. Plus I had my teleport, which I almost never needed to use. I was around level 12 at this point, and I honestly felt extremely powerful all the way thru level 16, soloing all the dungeons and content in the Tower District w/o a companion (except the Skirmishes & Cloak Tower of course). By level 14, I was receiving treasure for level 17-19 characters, which I assume is an indication of the intended level of the player needed to do the end content in the Tower District? When I hit 16, right before the beta ended, I chose a Cleric companion to help with some healing, but then the beta ended. I've used the Cleric with my Trickster Rogue, so I imagine she'll pull some aggro off me when healing, while I stun, freeze, and levitate my way to success.
So if there's any advice I can give to new Wizards, it's that you should experiment with your Spell Mastery spell and change it depending on the type of fight or group you're in. For example, the levitate ability lasted a bit longer and pulled other enemies toward it. The Chilling Wind spell (or whatever it's called), had a much larger radius and applied chill effects to all nearby enemies. The Pushback spell now pushed back groups of enemies standing in front of me instead of just one. It was really fun experimenting with different combinations of skills and spell mastery. Oh and for those curious, my Wizard was a Halfling with a 16 INT, 16 WIS, and 13 CHA. I think the other stats might have been 10 STR, 10 CON, and 14 DEX. So the race certainly wasn't a factor in my success.
The overall experience was a reminder of how much weaker traditional D&D Wizards are supposed to be compared to the other classes. Weak health, no armor, but massive amounts of control and damage. Which then reminded me of the original WOW beta when the Mage class was equally weak, but dished out TONS of damage. Unfortunately Blizzard changed that right before release due to whiny lazy players who want everything handed to them. Blizzard raised the HP, lowered the damage, and the "nuker" became just another neutered class that was able to take on a heavy melee warrior w/o any need to get out of the way or worry of dying when standing toe to toe. Which is essentially a Warrior with spells. Very sad and I hope that doesn't happen to Neverwinter.
The overall experience was a reminder of how much weaker traditional D&D Wizards are supposed to be compared to the other classes. Weak health, no armor, but massive amounts of control and damage. Which then reminded me of the original WOW beta when the Mage class was equally weak, but dished out TONS of damage. Unfortunately Blizzard changed that right before release due to whiny lazy players who want everything handed to them. Blizzard raised the HP, lowered the damage, and the "nuker" became just another neutered class that was able to take on a heavy melee warrior w/o any need to get out of the way or worry of dying when standing toe to toe. Which is essentially a Warrior with spells. Very sad and I hope that doesn't happen to Neverwinter.
Very well said. I have very much enjoyed the class so far and I enjoy that it seems the most difficult class to play at the moment. PLEASE KEEP IT THIS WAY! I dont want every scrub playing wizards, leave the wizards for the skilled players please. I was able to clear content and dominate almost every situation with my set-up. SO MUCH FUN to play!
I solo played a CW to 34. Never had any troubles. I used the Man At Arms companion and using Chill Strike on tab and very nearly one-shotted 3-4 mobs at a time. Had a great time! Can't wait to see what they are like post 40
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vangiang24Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
CW is weak in PVE. CW is the best class in PVP. That's it. If you aren't facerolling with CW in PVP, you are doing wrong.
Used ray of enfeeblement (tabbed) SO strong, chill strike, sudden storm and the choking skill (forget what its called), and just about blasted through everything. Switched to the lvl 50 skill (forget what its called) at 50, took a while to get used to it. Found starting the fight with it was the best option, stand by it to get some arcane stacks, push it into a group knocking 2 down, blows up for 2k aoe(non crit) and then just a simple clean up. I never found shield or repel to be all the useful. Its all about smart casting and not spamming your skills.
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darktalon81Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 32Arc User
edited March 2013
just my 2 cents and experiences leveling a control wizard to 42.
NOT weak. never died questing and even when getting into very bad situations. only died once in dungeons. Almost always placed #1 or 2 in damage.
In regards to control, I slotted chill strike in TAB, RoE in Q, entangling grasp in E and Slow time in R. If you play the cooldowns carefully I could nearly perma control single mobs and decently control groups. Dailies were either Magnetic field or Singularity in 1 and always Ice Dagger in 2. (if you time combat advantage and crit that thing is DEVESTATING.)
There is a degree of skill and timing involved absolutely but so far my experiences are very fun and highlight just how strong this class is.
Honestly, the CW is too strong if anything. You can CC lock any boss you like as long as you don't waste your CC when they are immune. They are not 100% immune and you get one CC off and they are locked near permanently. Bosses are not even a challenge for CW. I would say bump up the single target damage a little bit and nerf the cooldown of the force choke thing at least. The choke duration seemed to be doubled from BW2 to BW3 and this made complete CC lock possible.
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derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
Honestly, the CW is too strong if anything. You can CC lock any boss you like as long as you don't waste your CC when they are immune. They are not 100% immune and you get one CC off and they are locked near permanently. Bosses are not even a challenge for CW. I would say bump up the single target damage a little bit and nerf the cooldown of the force choke thing at least. The choke duration seemed to be doubled from BW2 to BW3 and this made complete CC lock possible.
Yeah, the mini-bosses that can be CCed are just a cakewalk. However, there are some more "real" bosses that are completely immune to any CC (repel, entanglement, chill strike, etc).
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
Yeah, the mini-bosses that can be CCed are just a cakewalk. However, there are some more "real" bosses that are completely immune to any CC (repel, entanglement, chill strike, etc).
..and that's when you have the adds on lockdown. I almost never DPSed the boss, just got the adds out of the equation. Increased the survivability of the cleric by 10x, and the groups I instanced with kept saying "all this content is sooooo easy!". Earned a lot of friends off of this.
However, apparently one of my new friends re-did the instance with a CW that didn't do that. Kept asking me to sub in, because they were having some trouble with adds, apparently...
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rangorvixMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 19Arc User
edited March 2013
Been a interesting read this thread as it develops, I had very little time to play Beta, and dont think I spent enough time on the Wizard, but I enjoyed it. I did worry about my control durations, but more in the mindset of aoe stunning in 5mans (being a good controller), rather than concerns while leveling. I am coming down on the side that the class is fine the way it is, it sounds like it requires time/skill to play right and thats pretty awesome tbh. Just hope I dont suck at it:p
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derresshMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 1Arc User
..and that's when you have the adds on lockdown. I almost never DPSed the boss, just got the adds out of the equation. Increased the survivability of the cleric by 10x, and the groups I instanced with kept saying "all this content is sooooo easy!". Earned a lot of friends off of this.
However, apparently one of my new friends re-did the instance with a CW that didn't do that. Kept asking me to sub in, because they were having some trouble with adds, apparently...
Oh, I know this already. Ran through most of the content with a trickster rogue "tanking", so I learned really quickly that I needed to keep adds off of her. Was just stating that for the person I quoted.
Also, I didn't try it during the beta weekend, unfortunately, but throwing in Ray of Enfeeblement on your Spell Mastery slot might be a good idea to keep on bosses. Anyone try doing this and can tell me how much faster it made the boss, if at all? Or did it detract too much from doing actual CC?
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dollahzMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I had the same sentiment until I got to higher levels and starting gaining access to the feats and higher level skills. Control Wizard brings unmatched control to a dungeon fight. He allows the rest of your party to steam roll the rest of the content. I would suggest you hold judgement until you get to higher levels.
Not only the game but the discutions about the game sound more and more like wow....
It's a guild wars mechanics with wow tech trees and the "CC wizard" aka "ice wizard" is from my experience kinda weak early, maybe stronger hi lvls ?!?
We even got tank,dps and healer discutions...**** this game was promising so **** much D&D freedom and has given so many restrictions
:-<
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
Oh, I know this already. Ran through most of the content with a trickster rogue "tanking", so I learned really quickly that I needed to keep adds off of her. Was just stating that for the person I quoted.
Also, I didn't try it during the beta weekend, unfortunately, but throwing in Ray of Enfeeblement on your Spell Mastery slot might be a good idea to keep on bosses. Anyone try doing this and can tell me how much faster it made the boss, if at all? Or did it detract too much from doing actual CC?
RoE won't win any awards, but it was a decent debuffer. It had good damage when slotted tab, and the debuff component worked pretty well for quest bosses. I never tried it on 5-man; the "corralling" role seemed to work better for the group, so I just stuck with it.
This Beta I used RoE as a part of my build the whole time. Previous Beta I had Chill build. This time I went Arcane.
At Will: Magic Missle and Ray of Frost (then lightning At Will after Paragon)
Encounter: RoE, Steal Time, Entangling Force
Spell Mastery: Ice Blast? (I would occasionally put RoE in Mastery but it seemed to work well enough alone)
I felt powerful the whole time. Even after the initial shock of Helm's Hold wore off I just kept on laying the Mage Fu down.
RoE is great. I don't know if they changed something from the last patch but it made mobs melt like butter in a 5 man. There are two reasons I didn't run with it Mastered much. First, the cooldown is fairly long so even with two charges after I used the initial two I felt like I was basically using one charge at a time if I keep it in rotation. Second, Ice Blast Mastered is money. (in a five man a little less awesome...but still so sweet.)
Steal Time was the best Arcane Mastery and AP builder(with Talents), for me, in the game. The Mastery buff wasn't long enough for me to use it as my Mastered Spell but the Stun + Builder effects were so great.
I can't say for post level 35 content but Control Wizard was perfect for me this Beta.
We've made some changes to the Control Wizard which should help balance out their powers and survivability. Thanks for all of your feedback!
I get that you can't tell us specifics, but could you tell us if they were a buff or a nerf?
Considering it was in a thread titled like this one, I'm assuming it's a buff (which is fine by me, CW felt fine as it was during BW3), but you know what they say about assuming...
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sendrienMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
We've made some changes to the Control Wizard which should help balance out their powers and survivability. Thanks for all of your feedback!
The way this is phrased sounds like a nerf being spun to sound positive.
It's a pity, because Control Wizard only started feeling like a playable class in BW3.
The world is not beautiful; therefore, it is.
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dollahzMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Control Wizard was a bit too strong in dungeon play anyways. You could literally CC all the trash indefinitely. In BW3 the 52 and 40s dungeon was a cake walk. Combine this with the powerful HP potions. My team of randoms steamrolled through each dungeon content. I just hope the Alpha testers are giving them proper feedback. Control Wizard could easily build Daily and 6 stacks of ice made it very easy to keep mobs clusters and AOE them down.
Crowd Control has always been a controversial element of a game. It is very hard to balance and make it fun to use. I hoping for a more innovative approach to balancing it, but seems like we will get the same RNG chance to go into effect and mobs being immune. I would much preferred very few CC but more powerful effect then the current implementation.
I really hope they do another beta before release or its gonna be hit and miss come release day. The Control Wizard is far from weak or underpowered. The class just takes a lot of levels before he really shines. Some of these issues are being addressed already with the making shield available at level 20 announced a while back. I'm defiantly waiting to see the next interaction of Control Wizard as many others are as well. I have my own gripes about the various aspects but that's for another thread at another time.
It is way differente if you nerf or buff a character or adjust the power curve along the levels. I played till 30 and it was fine, just fine. On early levels CW was still sometimes problematic.
personally id be happ with being able to teleprot more than most others or having it recharge much quicker than other classes. that imho would fix our survivability.
PVE I don't feel weak, but magic missile feels like magic whif in pvp. I pretty much think they beat the **** out of the CW for BWE4. Not impressed going to have to play a rogue like everyone else it seems. GWF is horrible.
Comments
I found the fact that the rogue shadow ability was such a good cc compared to anything the CW has to be one of the greatest mysteries of the game. Its hard to see how something like that can get through all the way to a final beta version. By the time my shadow was used up I had usually killed all the mobs because i also hit really hard. It's like a 10 sec aoe confuse, just totally weird that the CW cc is so much weaker. All the more so when combined with the other points you mention.
So if there's any advice I can give to new Wizards, it's that you should experiment with your Spell Mastery spell and change it depending on the type of fight or group you're in. For example, the levitate ability lasted a bit longer and pulled other enemies toward it. The Chilling Wind spell (or whatever it's called), had a much larger radius and applied chill effects to all nearby enemies. The Pushback spell now pushed back groups of enemies standing in front of me instead of just one. It was really fun experimenting with different combinations of skills and spell mastery. Oh and for those curious, my Wizard was a Halfling with a 16 INT, 16 WIS, and 13 CHA. I think the other stats might have been 10 STR, 10 CON, and 14 DEX. So the race certainly wasn't a factor in my success.
The overall experience was a reminder of how much weaker traditional D&D Wizards are supposed to be compared to the other classes. Weak health, no armor, but massive amounts of control and damage. Which then reminded me of the original WOW beta when the Mage class was equally weak, but dished out TONS of damage. Unfortunately Blizzard changed that right before release due to whiny lazy players who want everything handed to them. Blizzard raised the HP, lowered the damage, and the "nuker" became just another neutered class that was able to take on a heavy melee warrior w/o any need to get out of the way or worry of dying when standing toe to toe. Which is essentially a Warrior with spells. Very sad and I hope that doesn't happen to Neverwinter.
Very well said. I have very much enjoyed the class so far and I enjoy that it seems the most difficult class to play at the moment. PLEASE KEEP IT THIS WAY! I dont want every scrub playing wizards, leave the wizards for the skilled players please. I was able to clear content and dominate almost every situation with my set-up. SO MUCH FUN to play!
NOT weak. never died questing and even when getting into very bad situations. only died once in dungeons. Almost always placed #1 or 2 in damage.
In regards to control, I slotted chill strike in TAB, RoE in Q, entangling grasp in E and Slow time in R. If you play the cooldowns carefully I could nearly perma control single mobs and decently control groups. Dailies were either Magnetic field or Singularity in 1 and always Ice Dagger in 2. (if you time combat advantage and crit that thing is DEVESTATING.)
There is a degree of skill and timing involved absolutely but so far my experiences are very fun and highlight just how strong this class is.
Yeah, the mini-bosses that can be CCed are just a cakewalk. However, there are some more "real" bosses that are completely immune to any CC (repel, entanglement, chill strike, etc).
..and that's when you have the adds on lockdown. I almost never DPSed the boss, just got the adds out of the equation. Increased the survivability of the cleric by 10x, and the groups I instanced with kept saying "all this content is sooooo easy!". Earned a lot of friends off of this.
However, apparently one of my new friends re-did the instance with a CW that didn't do that. Kept asking me to sub in, because they were having some trouble with adds, apparently...
Oh, I know this already. Ran through most of the content with a trickster rogue "tanking", so I learned really quickly that I needed to keep adds off of her. Was just stating that for the person I quoted.
Also, I didn't try it during the beta weekend, unfortunately, but throwing in Ray of Enfeeblement on your Spell Mastery slot might be a good idea to keep on bosses. Anyone try doing this and can tell me how much faster it made the boss, if at all? Or did it detract too much from doing actual CC?
It's a guild wars mechanics with wow tech trees and the "CC wizard" aka "ice wizard" is from my experience kinda weak early, maybe stronger hi lvls ?!?
We even got tank,dps and healer discutions...**** this game was promising so **** much D&D freedom and has given so many restrictions
:-<
RoE won't win any awards, but it was a decent debuffer. It had good damage when slotted tab, and the debuff component worked pretty well for quest bosses. I never tried it on 5-man; the "corralling" role seemed to work better for the group, so I just stuck with it.
At Will: Magic Missle and Ray of Frost (then lightning At Will after Paragon)
Encounter: RoE, Steal Time, Entangling Force
Spell Mastery: Ice Blast? (I would occasionally put RoE in Mastery but it seemed to work well enough alone)
I felt powerful the whole time. Even after the initial shock of Helm's Hold wore off I just kept on laying the Mage Fu down.
RoE is great. I don't know if they changed something from the last patch but it made mobs melt like butter in a 5 man. There are two reasons I didn't run with it Mastered much. First, the cooldown is fairly long so even with two charges after I used the initial two I felt like I was basically using one charge at a time if I keep it in rotation. Second, Ice Blast Mastered is money. (in a five man a little less awesome...but still so sweet.)
Steal Time was the best Arcane Mastery and AP builder(with Talents), for me, in the game. The Mastery buff wasn't long enough for me to use it as my Mastered Spell but the Stun + Builder effects were so great.
I can't say for post level 35 content but Control Wizard was perfect for me this Beta.
We've made some changes to the Control Wizard which should help balance out their powers and survivability. Thanks for all of your feedback!
What a tease. Tell us the changes bro!
I get that you can't tell us specifics, but could you tell us if they were a buff or a nerf?
Considering it was in a thread titled like this one, I'm assuming it's a buff (which is fine by me, CW felt fine as it was during BW3), but you know what they say about assuming...
The way this is phrased sounds like a nerf being spun to sound positive.
It's a pity, because Control Wizard only started feeling like a playable class in BW3.
Crowd Control has always been a controversial element of a game. It is very hard to balance and make it fun to use. I hoping for a more innovative approach to balancing it, but seems like we will get the same RNG chance to go into effect and mobs being immune. I would much preferred very few CC but more powerful effect then the current implementation.
I really hope they do another beta before release or its gonna be hit and miss come release day. The Control Wizard is far from weak or underpowered. The class just takes a lot of levels before he really shines. Some of these issues are being addressed already with the making shield available at level 20 announced a while back. I'm defiantly waiting to see the next interaction of Control Wizard as many others are as well. I have my own gripes about the various aspects but that's for another thread at another time.
"Are you saying we shouldn't hope?"
"I'm saying we should remove the carrot and walk forward with our eyes open!”