I don't see a problem at all with the whole gwf thing if theres a gf in the group . none actually. a gwf of any build is fine and helpful. that is not the problem. here is the problem.( this will be far worse for rogues) If you have a team that HAS a gwf for DPS which they are. then a group will NOT want another gwf. and if that second gwf is build for wannabe tanking he will probably get laughed at. the loot in this game is class specific. meaning not many groups of friends will want multi of one class in their group ( IF it can be helped. ) so any gwf wannabe tank will be considered ......last. that is the truth of it.
0
zingarbageMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I love it when people absolutely know how others will play ...just because that's how you build your groups doesn't mean that's the only way to do it . or the most effective way to do it . if you cant see the benefits of have 2 different styled tank / off tank classes working together to cover different situations that may arise during and encounter then that's your prerogative. it doesn't mean that im wrong . "every mmo created" lol closed minded people , im sure that's how you like to run your group in every mmo you have played , but not the only way to play in "every mmo created" . im not saying your way is wrong . Im just saying there are other ways of thinking that are just as prominent .
I understand there are other ways of thinking, ways which will work. I was responding to your statement, "its not like groups are going to say you cant come we already have a gf or vice versa."
This will most definitely happen. Groups will exclude based on your class and feat setup. This does not mean you will not find groups that will accept you.
As GWF Tanks become more popular thanks to their better ability to track enemy movement they will become a completely acceptable tank option, just as Monks and Death Knights became in WoW.
That tunnel vision the GF gets? The GWF doesn't get it, thanks to the increased movement and active manipulation of aggro. A GWF's motions mean she has to keep an eye out for the other adds and groups in a given area, and that sort of situational awareness will transfer, well, into avoiding the tank n' spank mindset.
-Rachel-
Great Weapon Fighter tanks? Who are you kidding? Cleric tanks. They draw -all- the aggro.
As GWF Tanks become more popular thanks to their better ability to track enemy movement they will become a completely acceptable tank option, just as Monks and Death Knights became in WoW.
That tunnel vision the GF gets? The GWF doesn't get it, thanks to the increased movement and active manipulation of aggro. A GWF's motions mean she has to keep an eye out for the other adds and groups in a given area, and that sort of situational awareness will transfer, well, into avoiding the tank n' spank mindset.
-Rachel-
**** just when I thought the post was done and all silly comments were said..
the GWF does NOT have the threat or agro control in ANY way. no your dreaming. it is not there.
The Gf has much more that means MUCH more active manipulation of all agro.
The GWF does not have some special magical ability to have some extra " an eye out for adds in ANYway"
The GWF has ZERO more situational awareness.
The GWF can NOT hold agro and kite mobs like your dreaming about. they do NOT have the skills or threat to do it. mobs will break off and be running at the casters and or just turn on the rogue. it will be a cluster^%$# AS it was in beta3 tested and proven.
What dreamland are you people in to think a GWF can be main tank and hold agro post 30th level. when the game just starts to pick up an get harder?... ok I will throw in the towel of this debate. you can not squeeze water out of a rock. and 2+2 does not =5
**** just when I thought the post was done and all silly comments were said..
the GWF does NOT have the threat or agro control in ANY way. no your dreaming. it is not there.
The Gf has much more that means MUCH more active manipulation of all agro.
The GWF does not have some special magical ability to have some extra " an eye out for adds in ANYway"
The GWF has ZERO more situational awareness.
The GWF can NOT hold agro and kite mobs like your dreaming about. they do NOT have the skills or threat to do it. mobs will break off and be running at the casters and or just turn on the rogue. it will be a cluster^%$# AS it was in beta3 tested and proven.
What dreamland are you people in to think a GWF can be main tank and hold agro post 30th level. when the game just starts to pick up an get harder?... ok I will throw in the towel of this debate. you can not squeeze water out of a rock. and 2+2 does not =5
Wow... just let it go. If we want to tank as GWFs, that is our choice, we will play OUR way. You don't need to group with us. Given your unwillingness to try new tactics and group makeups, I don't think you would be fun to group with any ways.
0
nemesis788450Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
**** just when I thought the post was done and all silly comments were said..
the GWF does NOT have the threat or agro control in ANY way. no your dreaming. it is not there.
The Gf has much more that means MUCH more active manipulation of all agro.
I would agree if you had said "a bit more". But not much more.
The GWF does not have some special magical ability to have some extra " an eye out for adds in ANYway"
While this is true it all comes down to the respective player.
The GWF has ZERO more situational awareness.
Same response as the one previous.
The GWF can NOT hold agro and kite mobs like your dreaming about. they do NOT have the skills or threat to do it. mobs will break off and be running at the casters and or just turn on the rogue. it will be a cluster^%$# AS it was in beta3 tested and proven.
Yes they can, please refer, once again to the Sentinel feats. Also, where was this "tested and proven"? We all know the Clerics aggro is a bit wonky and it is being worked on. Not even a GF could hold aggro against that beast of a threat puller.
What dreamland are you people in to think a GWF can be main tank and hold agro post 30th level. when the game just starts to pick up an get harder?
Not a dreamland, but enough experience to know it can be done. Like it or not, it can be done. Period. End of story.
... ok I will throw in the towel of this debate. you can not squeeze water out of a rock. and 2+2 does not =5
Alrighty then! Goodbye to you! I will remember your handle so you won't have to group with GWF tanks such as myself then!
;;;;;;;;;;;;; Have looked. Have played the GWF. Friend played GWF to 38th in full wannabe tank build. which is survival.. NOT tanking.
I would agree if you had said "a bit more". But not much more.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Opinion as mine was on this. I consider 2-3 times more. a lot. if you concider those little skill bonuses to threat comparable to the GF large list as "a bit more" then... ok great lol
While this is true it all comes down to the respective player.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;Yep
Same response as the one previous.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;yep
Yes they can, please refer, once again to the Sentinel feats. Also, where was this "tested and proven"? We all know the Clerics aggro is a bit wonky and it is being worked on. Not even a GF could hold aggro against that beast of a threat puller.
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;never said a word on the cleric agro bug. and yes tested means tested! the GWF as a tank held agro far less then the GF. this is at 30+ levels it was not even close ! You sir need to get your guesswork in check.
Not a dreamland, but enough experience to know it can be done. Like it or not, it can be done. Period. End of story.
;;;;;;;what can be done? if you mean can a GWF taunt and hold agro close to a GF. then No wrong it can not be done end of story.
can a gwf get all the better survival and disrupt skills and last longer in a battle and hold a small amount of tanking if a GF is not there.... sure ok they can.. you got me lol.
Alrighty then! Goodbye to you! I will remember your handle so you won't have to group with GWF tanks such as myself then!
I sure hope so. my teams do tend to play their class and their position on a group. only time a GWF 'tank' will be on my team is if I do not have a gwf dps already. oh and the gwf 'tank' better know his place not to step on the GF leading the fights. Good day to you tho.
I sure hope so. my teams do tend to play their class and their position on a group. only time a GWF 'tank' will be on my team is if I do not have a gwf dps already. oh and the gwf 'tank' better know his place not to step on the GF leading the fights. Good day to you tho.
Something tells me you are not gonna enjoy this game very much for very long, and will go back to standing in cities and waiting in queues.
Something tells me you are not gonna enjoy this game very much for very long, and will go back to standing in cities and waiting in queues.
Then your ignorance as in other posts you have made shines again. Im loving the game. Myself and my RL friends and guild all ready all set. Do I need to sugarcoat peoples BS? no. If I see someone try to put their guessing ignorance into a fact an trick or lie or mislead people then I do so enjoy pointing out the mistakes. Its the unhappy people that complain that will be gone. I will remain smileing as normal.
Then your ignorance as in other posts you have made shines again. Im loving the game. Myself and my RL friends and guild all ready all set. Do I need to sugarcoat peoples BS? no. If I see someone try to put their guessing ignorance into a fact an trick or lie or mislead people then I do so enjoy pointing out the mistakes. Its the unhappy people that complain that will be gone. I will remain smileing as normal.
Something tells me you are not gonna enjoy this game very much for very long, and will go back to standing in cities and waiting in queues.
I do admit im confused by what you could mean "standing in citys and waiting in queues" tho... hmm this game will be a lot of people standing in citys and also a lot of waiting in ques. but alas it don't matter lol.
0
lurkersxMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
Not really seeing why all the arguing between which tank is better. They are two different styles but both were able to tank all the content we had in the beta just fine. One may require more skill than another but that hasn't really been determined with the limited play. Most the end dungeon bosses seemed to not be tanked and targeted skills at random players for them to avoid, the adds seemed to be the biggest threat if people were avoiding the bosses red circles or cone. There is the block that a GF has... if anyone played one you would notice that block meter gets taken down in one hit if you try to tank n spank in the red circle.. mobility is a fact of life in an action mmo.
In many of the fights a GF grabbing the boss and a GWF grabbing all the adds it spawned would be beneficial but both could do either role, the aoe radius of a GWF makes them great for adds though...
This has turned from a GWF can tank / build thread to a argument about which class is better... both have advantages and disadvantages, how these work in end game dungeons we don't know yet.
0
kelrethiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited April 2013
Something occurs to me as I read the arguments on this thread.
Before the discovery of flight, some humans argued passionately that it was impossible, and other humans argued that it was very possible.
However impassioned the argument, though, it became irrelevant when two brothers took to the air for the first time.
Just to throw my two cents in. Judging by the argument interjected into this thread, for no apparent reason, it seems the "traditional" or "true" tank fans are going to be sorely disappointed as the GWF's original intent is realized in game by Sendrien and Voidwatcher. I truly hope to have the honor of fighting beside a skilled GWF, and we can show the hood fellow that you guys are more than just dreamers.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
When life turns it's back on you, sneak attack it for extra damage!
last couple posts Well said ! I also very much look forward to fighting with many skilled GWF. I will never on the other hand agree that a gwf can taunt and hold argo like the GF. which was my only point to begin with when people posted iot was as good as a main tank as the gf,. Anyhow was fun thread to partake in .
I see them as being meant to be a team complimenting each other . not in competition for a group slot
^^^This.
The devs designed the current classes to synergize with one another. An ideal group has 2 tanks; the GF takes the biggest baddest mothaf***er in the room while the GWF takes all the minions.
Both classes can handle tanking for a group solo, both can be built for heavy dps, it's all in how you choose to play.
I sure hope so. my teams do tend to play their class and their position on a group. only time a GWF 'tank' will be on my team is if I do not have a gwf dps already. oh and the gwf 'tank' better know his place not to step on the GF leading the fights. Good day to you tho.
I won't be on yer team either way. Never have I said the GWF will equal the GF in "tankiness" but I did say with the right amount of know how and skill, a GWF can pull off main tanking if no GF is available. There is no guesswork on my part, I am part of the alpha testers but sadly I cannot reveal much info regarding that.
But once again, I am NOT trying to compete with the GF. Never, not ever. What I will do, is main tank if no GF is around and I will get it done. Will it be difficult? Hell yes! Will I shy way from it? Not a bloody chance.
Just to throw my two cents in. Judging by the argument interjected into this thread, for no apparent reason, it seems the "traditional" or "true" tank fans are going to be sorely disappointed as the GWF's original intent is realized in game by Sendrien and Voidwatcher. I truly hope to have the honor of fighting beside a skilled GWF, and we can show the hood fellow that you guys are more than just dreamers.
My sincerest thanks good sir! I will aspire to improve myself and practice daily on how to get this done to the best of it's capabilities!
GWF will make a good offtank/add holder..but it is NOT a primary tank..You can't block, you will likely put your entire group in jeopardy of AoE damage while trying to run around, and you will not likely hold aggro on a primary target...I like your idea but I do not realistically see it as "I'm just as good as a GF at tanking" because fact is..you won't be..You are a durable DPS when built anyway but Sentinel, you are an offtank (at best tbh) as one..Most of the people here saying they will hold threat have only played low level content..I do not see it being likely at all that they will hold a primary target's threat end game..I'm sorry to say bud
I won't be on yer team either way. Never have I said the GWF will equal the GF in "tankiness" but I did say with the right amount of know how and skill, a GWF can pull off main tanking if no GF is available. There is no guesswork on my part, I am part of the alpha testers but sadly I cannot reveal much info regarding that.
But once again, I am NOT trying to compete with the GF. Never, not ever. What I will do, is main tank if no GF is around and I will get it done. Will it be difficult? Hell yes! Will I shy way from it? Not a bloody chance.
My sincerest thanks good sir! I will aspire to improve myself and practice daily on how to get this done to the best of it's capabilities!
This guy has the right concept..Not as good as a GF in tankiness/threat, but can suffice if none is available and/or an offtank.
0
nastyvixenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 28Arc User
OK, just getting this out there while I catch up with posts.
Your build is fine for tanking, the GWF can be a tank and they should be able to do so just fine. People need to get it out of their heads that the game is equal to WoW.
However, your build and all those powers and talents strike me as much more PvP oriented.
Also as an FYI on Avalanche of Steel, when you jump you drop aggro. All mobs will scatter and go IMMEDIATELY to the healer for about 3 seconds, this makes it a HORRIBLE tanking power to use. You're better off picking either spin to win or well, ANY of the other dailies to use.
0
bejita231Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited April 2013
GWF is a dpser first, offtank second
I would recommened that you all disregard certain terms such as "striker" or "defender" as none of those terms from the pen and paper book have any barring on a 2013 modernized MMO game, GWF is a dpser......not a defender, their primary goal is to dps with slight offtanking capability nothing more, you will never, EVER, get brought to a group to "defend", you will be expected to cleave dps groups of mobs and kite when focused same exact thing as a rogue would do, GF is the only tank class in the game
You must mean Ronin. void only repeated in the end what ronin been saying all along.
Suppose so... *shrug* Kudos to the realists, any/all of em People who claim it's going to be competitive vs. the GF don't seem to take everything into account tbh. *hugs Vixen*
0
teapotguruMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 16Arc User
Something occurs to me as I read the arguments on this thread.
Before the discovery of flight, some humans argued passionately that it was impossible, and other humans argued that it was very possible.
However impassioned the argument, though, it became irrelevant when two brothers took to the air for the first time.
^ Love this...
I'm a big tank enthusiast, and a keen observer of pull and fight mechanics. I have definitely noticed a number of fights or phases that would benefit or require an off tank. I think it's safe to say that this is Cryptic's intent, but whether the off tank will become a "crucial" role remains to be seen.
As is though, with the GWF only having the Swordmaster Paragon path, I get the feeling the class is only shelved in the off tank category for now. Fingers crossed come open beta that all classes get at least 2 paragon paths : ) as it is my intent to level every tanking class that is released. At this stage, the GF feels more natural for me - but who knows...the tanking paragon path for GWF could be amazing.
OK, all caught up with this little cart of midden that hit the windmill like Don Quixote on a bender. So let's cover a few things shall we?
Paragon Paths - So far we only have a single PP for GWF and I think every single other class. Other paths will be coming and may even be live for BW4. The Swordmaster path to my mind is a good general utility and DPS path with a few hints of PvP. Given that one of the specific trees for the GWF concentrates heavily upon tanking and aggro gain, I'd say that one of the Paragon Paths will put emphasis on tanking. Until this path is opened up to us we won't know about building a GWF for end game heroic/legendary/invincible/gold/admantine/whatever level content.
Next is that the pro-tanking camp has talked a lot about mobility and specifically the retention of aggro while mobile.
Stop. Please, just stop.
Yes NW is an action MMO, however the game designers made a very conscious decision that you stop moving when you attack as melee. You make a full on commitment to the attack that will hold you there as long as you're attacking unless you hit your escape key to get out.
What this does mean though is that as mentioned earlier the GWF is an active mitigation tank. You'll gain large amounts of passive resistance through proper use of unstoppable and any attacks built around building up that meter as fast as possible. Also as was noted there are many talent choices you can make that grant increased resistance based on using various abilities as well.
Does this mean that you'll not be using your abilities to reposition mobs and escape damage?
NO! Of course not, that would be insanely stupid. Rather it's that instead of just kiting about auto-attacking, GWFs get the hell out of the way for any big red circles or sweeping attacks by lieutenant class baddies. Which is far different than the GF who can sit through and block them.
Which brings up the next point about GF's though that someone said. "When you block through a red-circle your shield is immediately busted!"
You've built your GF wrong for tanking.
Not saying that you'll never have your guard broken, but that it doesn't happen that quickly and you can sit through most red-circles just fine with your shield up. Just stop using jab and start using your shield bash and other tools to keep your guard charged up.
As for how the GWF should/could handle it. Well, as mentioned mobility. With frontal cones rush through your foe with your charge then attack them from behind while they are committed to the attack. For AoE just keep going until you're clear. In both cases though what you rather have to watch out for isn't so much boss damage but minion damage - this is the case with the GF as well. If your foes are gaining combat advantage on you you're eaten alive - sometimes literally when fighting zombies. The benefits the GWF has in fighting large packs comes from how the lowest current damage area is 5' wide and 15' long and most of our other attacks occur in a 250-degree+ cone. So there's not much that gets by and the GWF can wipe out a large pack of foes faster than most everyone.
So where do things stand RIGHT NOW?
Well, as of BW3 the GF is being slotted heavily as the main tank, the GWF has been put in a position of strong melee with excellent AoE, Cleric is heals, Control Wizard is control with some good nuking if built right and Trickster is disturbingly powerful single target DPS.
Some of this will change, do remember that we're dealing with an unfinished product here. So here are my expectations:
1) At least one more, if not two more Paragon Paths for each class. For the most part these will be split into Utility (tank, heals, buffs), DPS and PvP.
2) That this IS NOT A COMPETITIVE GAME, no really it isn't. Stop it with all this "Yeah, well any group that can get a GF to tank won't need a GWF and will never take one with them!" horse-pucky. It's a huge line of BS. Fact is if I'm good enough at dodging, pick the right ability load-out and don't run out of potions I could tank with anything in this game. It's just easier to do when you have a class that makes it easier.
3) The one really huge factor I've seen in everyone's impression of how a class plays is talent and power choice. Now for the most part people aren't going "well I took 3 of X and 5 of Y then loaded out with these at-wills and those encounters ..." but when someone is going "Well my GWF wasn't doing much damage." Then you find out they were trying to use Reaping all the time and never put Sure Strike on their bar, well you tend to go "hmmm." Or "Well my GWF dies all the time" and then you find out they took Roar thinking they'd just keep things knocked back but pulled the charge off their bar to make room for it and keep getting hit by red-cones/circles/rectangles/etc. I've seen the same thing with the Control Wizard where someone talks about doing a lot of damage and it's because they took a lot of single-target heavy hitters and the guy complaining about squishiness and lack of damage is just spamming AoEs and sitting there expecting all their foes to be stuck there in a steal time and not just slowed.
And in closing I'd just like to remind everyone that it is beta. How about we let some of these arguments pass?
You must mean Ronin. void only repeated in the end what ronin been saying all along.
I repeated nothing that he said. You must be getting things mixed up somewhere in there. I still aim to be main tanking if the possibility is there. But I am fully aware that I can never compete with a GF. That was never what this thread was about as the OP stated. But somehow seem to skew the entire post into a GWFvsGF which is never what it was intended as.
Comments
I understand there are other ways of thinking, ways which will work. I was responding to your statement, "its not like groups are going to say you cant come we already have a gf or vice versa."
This will most definitely happen. Groups will exclude based on your class and feat setup. This does not mean you will not find groups that will accept you.
That tunnel vision the GF gets? The GWF doesn't get it, thanks to the increased movement and active manipulation of aggro. A GWF's motions mean she has to keep an eye out for the other adds and groups in a given area, and that sort of situational awareness will transfer, well, into avoiding the tank n' spank mindset.
-Rachel-
**** just when I thought the post was done and all silly comments were said..
the GWF does NOT have the threat or agro control in ANY way. no your dreaming. it is not there.
The Gf has much more that means MUCH more active manipulation of all agro.
The GWF does not have some special magical ability to have some extra " an eye out for adds in ANYway"
The GWF has ZERO more situational awareness.
The GWF can NOT hold agro and kite mobs like your dreaming about. they do NOT have the skills or threat to do it. mobs will break off and be running at the casters and or just turn on the rogue. it will be a cluster^%$# AS it was in beta3 tested and proven.
What dreamland are you people in to think a GWF can be main tank and hold agro post 30th level. when the game just starts to pick up an get harder?... ok I will throw in the towel of this debate. you can not squeeze water out of a rock. and 2+2 does not =5
Wow... just let it go. If we want to tank as GWFs, that is our choice, we will play OUR way. You don't need to group with us. Given your unwillingness to try new tactics and group makeups, I don't think you would be fun to group with any ways.
Yes the GWF does indeed. If you could be bothered to look at the Sentinel feats on the link supplied below you will find that they can:
http://nwowiki.co/index.php?title=Great_Weapon_Fighter
I would agree if you had said "a bit more". But not much more.
While this is true it all comes down to the respective player. Same response as the one previous. Yes they can, please refer, once again to the Sentinel feats. Also, where was this "tested and proven"? We all know the Clerics aggro is a bit wonky and it is being worked on. Not even a GF could hold aggro against that beast of a threat puller. Not a dreamland, but enough experience to know it can be done. Like it or not, it can be done. Period. End of story. Alrighty then! Goodbye to you! I will remember your handle so you won't have to group with GWF tanks such as myself then!
I sure hope so. my teams do tend to play their class and their position on a group. only time a GWF 'tank' will be on my team is if I do not have a gwf dps already. oh and the gwf 'tank' better know his place not to step on the GF leading the fights. Good day to you tho.
Something tells me you are not gonna enjoy this game very much for very long, and will go back to standing in cities and waiting in queues.
Then your ignorance as in other posts you have made shines again. Im loving the game. Myself and my RL friends and guild all ready all set. Do I need to sugarcoat peoples BS? no. If I see someone try to put their guessing ignorance into a fact an trick or lie or mislead people then I do so enjoy pointing out the mistakes. Its the unhappy people that complain that will be gone. I will remain smileing as normal.
M'kay. Have fun.
I do admit im confused by what you could mean "standing in citys and waiting in queues" tho... hmm this game will be a lot of people standing in citys and also a lot of waiting in ques. but alas it don't matter lol.
In many of the fights a GF grabbing the boss and a GWF grabbing all the adds it spawned would be beneficial but both could do either role, the aoe radius of a GWF makes them great for adds though...
This has turned from a GWF can tank / build thread to a argument about which class is better... both have advantages and disadvantages, how these work in end game dungeons we don't know yet.
Before the discovery of flight, some humans argued passionately that it was impossible, and other humans argued that it was very possible.
However impassioned the argument, though, it became irrelevant when two brothers took to the air for the first time.
Well said.
I like your writing style, very verbose without being dry or droning. It was fun reading your post.
^^^This.
The devs designed the current classes to synergize with one another. An ideal group has 2 tanks; the GF takes the biggest baddest mothaf***er in the room while the GWF takes all the minions.
Both classes can handle tanking for a group solo, both can be built for heavy dps, it's all in how you choose to play.
I won't be on yer team either way. Never have I said the GWF will equal the GF in "tankiness" but I did say with the right amount of know how and skill, a GWF can pull off main tanking if no GF is available. There is no guesswork on my part, I am part of the alpha testers but sadly I cannot reveal much info regarding that.
But once again, I am NOT trying to compete with the GF. Never, not ever. What I will do, is main tank if no GF is around and I will get it done. Will it be difficult? Hell yes! Will I shy way from it? Not a bloody chance.
My sincerest thanks good sir! I will aspire to improve myself and practice daily on how to get this done to the best of it's capabilities!
This guy has the right concept..Not as good as a GF in tankiness/threat, but can suffice if none is available and/or an offtank.
You must mean Ronin. void only repeated in the end what ronin been saying all along.
-Rachel-
Your build is fine for tanking, the GWF can be a tank and they should be able to do so just fine. People need to get it out of their heads that the game is equal to WoW.
However, your build and all those powers and talents strike me as much more PvP oriented.
Also as an FYI on Avalanche of Steel, when you jump you drop aggro. All mobs will scatter and go IMMEDIATELY to the healer for about 3 seconds, this makes it a HORRIBLE tanking power to use. You're better off picking either spin to win or well, ANY of the other dailies to use.
I would recommened that you all disregard certain terms such as "striker" or "defender" as none of those terms from the pen and paper book have any barring on a 2013 modernized MMO game, GWF is a dpser......not a defender, their primary goal is to dps with slight offtanking capability nothing more, you will never, EVER, get brought to a group to "defend", you will be expected to cleave dps groups of mobs and kite when focused same exact thing as a rogue would do, GF is the only tank class in the game
Suppose so... *shrug* Kudos to the realists, any/all of em
^ Love this...
I'm a big tank enthusiast, and a keen observer of pull and fight mechanics. I have definitely noticed a number of fights or phases that would benefit or require an off tank. I think it's safe to say that this is Cryptic's intent, but whether the off tank will become a "crucial" role remains to be seen.
As is though, with the GWF only having the Swordmaster Paragon path, I get the feeling the class is only shelved in the off tank category for now. Fingers crossed come open beta that all classes get at least 2 paragon paths : ) as it is my intent to level every tanking class that is released. At this stage, the GF feels more natural for me - but who knows...the tanking paragon path for GWF could be amazing.
Then there's the Paladin..... :cool:
Paragon Paths - So far we only have a single PP for GWF and I think every single other class. Other paths will be coming and may even be live for BW4. The Swordmaster path to my mind is a good general utility and DPS path with a few hints of PvP. Given that one of the specific trees for the GWF concentrates heavily upon tanking and aggro gain, I'd say that one of the Paragon Paths will put emphasis on tanking. Until this path is opened up to us we won't know about building a GWF for end game heroic/legendary/invincible/gold/admantine/whatever level content.
Next is that the pro-tanking camp has talked a lot about mobility and specifically the retention of aggro while mobile.
Stop. Please, just stop.
Yes NW is an action MMO, however the game designers made a very conscious decision that you stop moving when you attack as melee. You make a full on commitment to the attack that will hold you there as long as you're attacking unless you hit your escape key to get out.
What this does mean though is that as mentioned earlier the GWF is an active mitigation tank. You'll gain large amounts of passive resistance through proper use of unstoppable and any attacks built around building up that meter as fast as possible. Also as was noted there are many talent choices you can make that grant increased resistance based on using various abilities as well.
Does this mean that you'll not be using your abilities to reposition mobs and escape damage?
NO! Of course not, that would be insanely stupid. Rather it's that instead of just kiting about auto-attacking, GWFs get the hell out of the way for any big red circles or sweeping attacks by lieutenant class baddies. Which is far different than the GF who can sit through and block them.
Which brings up the next point about GF's though that someone said. "When you block through a red-circle your shield is immediately busted!"
You've built your GF wrong for tanking.
Not saying that you'll never have your guard broken, but that it doesn't happen that quickly and you can sit through most red-circles just fine with your shield up. Just stop using jab and start using your shield bash and other tools to keep your guard charged up.
As for how the GWF should/could handle it. Well, as mentioned mobility. With frontal cones rush through your foe with your charge then attack them from behind while they are committed to the attack. For AoE just keep going until you're clear. In both cases though what you rather have to watch out for isn't so much boss damage but minion damage - this is the case with the GF as well. If your foes are gaining combat advantage on you you're eaten alive - sometimes literally when fighting zombies. The benefits the GWF has in fighting large packs comes from how the lowest current damage area is 5' wide and 15' long and most of our other attacks occur in a 250-degree+ cone. So there's not much that gets by and the GWF can wipe out a large pack of foes faster than most everyone.
So where do things stand RIGHT NOW?
Well, as of BW3 the GF is being slotted heavily as the main tank, the GWF has been put in a position of strong melee with excellent AoE, Cleric is heals, Control Wizard is control with some good nuking if built right and Trickster is disturbingly powerful single target DPS.
Some of this will change, do remember that we're dealing with an unfinished product here. So here are my expectations:
1) At least one more, if not two more Paragon Paths for each class. For the most part these will be split into Utility (tank, heals, buffs), DPS and PvP.
2) That this IS NOT A COMPETITIVE GAME, no really it isn't. Stop it with all this "Yeah, well any group that can get a GF to tank won't need a GWF and will never take one with them!" horse-pucky. It's a huge line of BS. Fact is if I'm good enough at dodging, pick the right ability load-out and don't run out of potions I could tank with anything in this game. It's just easier to do when you have a class that makes it easier.
3) The one really huge factor I've seen in everyone's impression of how a class plays is talent and power choice. Now for the most part people aren't going "well I took 3 of X and 5 of Y then loaded out with these at-wills and those encounters ..." but when someone is going "Well my GWF wasn't doing much damage." Then you find out they were trying to use Reaping all the time and never put Sure Strike on their bar, well you tend to go "hmmm." Or "Well my GWF dies all the time" and then you find out they took Roar thinking they'd just keep things knocked back but pulled the charge off their bar to make room for it and keep getting hit by red-cones/circles/rectangles/etc. I've seen the same thing with the Control Wizard where someone talks about doing a lot of damage and it's because they took a lot of single-target heavy hitters and the guy complaining about squishiness and lack of damage is just spamming AoEs and sitting there expecting all their foes to be stuck there in a steal time and not just slowed.
And in closing I'd just like to remind everyone that it is beta. How about we let some of these arguments pass?
I repeated nothing that he said. You must be getting things mixed up somewhere in there. I still aim to be main tanking if the possibility is there. But I am fully aware that I can never compete with a GF. That was never what this thread was about as the OP stated. But somehow seem to skew the entire post into a GWFvsGF which is never what it was intended as.