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The GWF as a Mobile Defender - "Who Needs a Shield when my Sword is Bigger than Me!"
sendrien
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 0 Arc User
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The world is not beautiful; therefore, it is.
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Roar is also a problem. The interrupt is great, the moving all mobs is awful. Rogues will hate you, hell they will hate you for constantly re-positioning in the first place, this just adds too it.
Lets be real though, the class can be a good defender, but cryptic is clearly trying to define it as a striker as well, if not primarily.
Roar is only a problem if you use it on a rogue's target. Another way to use this power is to push mobs NOT being attacked by the rogue away from the fight. This creates safety for the rogue while building your own Determination bar.
In high level dungeons, good rogues are constantly repositioning regardless of the tank. You simply cannot afford to sit in every red circle and expect to come out alive. Unless the GWF is trying to kite a train of mobs half way across the map, the rogue will not be hampered by the mobility of the tank.
As to rogues, roar, and mobility. It has nothing to do with if rogues can still perform their jobs, it is a matter of convenience. If given the choice between a GF and GWF, all classes will prefer the GF. No need to complicate fights with movement if it isn't needed.
You will never be a preferred main tank. If you want to play the role of off tank, it would just be better to go conqueror and build determination through attacks while shifting through any strong mob attacks.
There is absolutely no doubt that this build will never be a preferred main tank. That is simply because most individuals are averse to change, and it is simply easier to stick with a familiar method. The mobile defender is not meant for these people.
This build is likely to gain much more purchase with groups that emphasize coordination and teamwork, and are constantly trying to push the envelope in terms of speed and efficiency. Neverwinter is at its core an Action MMO. As with the Cleric class, there is a lot of resistance to the idea that the healer shouldn't simply be a healbot, but just because it defies expectations does not mean that the class is necessarily useless or underpowered.
In the same way, people trapped in the WoW mentality of MMOs won't come to appreciate the advantages of mobile tanking. Certainly there is nothing wrong with that. However, I'm certain other groups who approach Neverwinter with an open mind will find the GWF as a tank much more liberating and versatile than anyone could have anticipated.
Reaping Strike is a spectacularly good ability, but most (like zingarbage) can't appreciate it because the thought of intentionally taking damage is seemingly counter-intuitive. But as a Defender you're going to get hit, there's simply no way to avoid it, and having an ability that actively boosts both your offensive and defensive power when getting hit perfectly complements the role.
It's true that given the choice between a full-tank GF and a full-tank GWF, the GF is going to be the "better" tank. However that in no way means the GWF is less viable or sub-optimal. Different mechanics, different tactics, that's all.
@Rogues will hate you: Rogues are bar-none the most mobile class. Between dodge rolls and teleports a good Rogue will never have a problem keeping up with an enemy, even if that enemy is being kited forever. Proof positive, BW3 Clerics were kite-tanking every encounter, and I rarely saw Rogues having issues killing whatever they wanted to kill. Add in their CC abilities like Dazing Strike -- and/or a Control Wizard -- and Rogues will have no problem shutting down their target and eliminating it while the GWF mobile-tanks the rest.
No group is going to value you more for the mere fact you are different than the other tank. They will just see you as second best.
You disagree with people complaining about the GWF as being second best as a striker, whether true or not, and then expect the class to be good because it is second best as a defender?
Nor should anyone expect any group to value them simply for diversity. But performance has an annoying way of speaking for itself.
I must admit, I'm very confused here by this question. I have never mentioned GWF as being a second best Striker. My whole premise was that the GWF is misunderstood as a Striker when in fact it is a Defender.
I don't expect the class to be good, I know it is.
Again, I have no doubt it can perform the role of defender. However, it does so as second best and no group is going to choose you over an equally skilled GF.
With as screwed up as threat was during the only BWE that the GWF was available, how did you mange to keep threat? I saw GF that had a good head start lose threat instantly to clerics, I'm curious how you managed to keep it.
Not counting the VERY bugged Cleric threat of course. It IS a known bug after all.
And I think your strategy will pay rich dividends once you find people to run with who are less concerned with convention/tradition and more concerned with what you actually bring to the team. If you find any good strategies, please share with us on this thread!
With all the variety of groups and playing styles out there, and with the meta game changing so frequently, I would say it's premature to jump to conclusions about preferences of tanking style.
No, we will continue despite the naysayers.
It is not premature to jump to conclusions. Groups will always prefer less movement to more movement. You get higher dps that way for one thing and you positional dps don't like it. Ranged dps as well such as a cleric that has strong aoe but with a delayed cast. Nothing like missing the group due to movement.
If you find a group that wants to put up with a GWF tank, than great, that is what playing with friends is all about and a GWF can perform the role. Just not as well as GF.
It's clear that you hold very strongly to your belief that the GWF is nothing but an inferior version of the Guardian Fighter. With respect, if your mind is made up, then I applaud the tenacity of your opinion.
Even if they are recalcitrant or hesitant towards this way of thinking I aim to prove them wrong. As for suggestions regarding the GWF I found that taking points into Defiance along with the Daily Slam (or Spinning Strike but not both.) to help with aggro if you feel you need more.
Defiance: Slam and Spinning Strike generate 5/10/15/20/25% additional threat and your Defense is increased by 5/10/15/20/25% additional threat and your Defense is increased by 5/10/15/20/25% while they are active.
Also if more sustain is needed to keep yourself topped off Unstoppable Recovery in the Tier 1 part of the Instigator Paragon Tree feats helps out a bit. Although it felt like the numbers were off last time I tried.
Unstoppable Recovery: Activating Unstoppable now grants you 1/2/3/4/5% of your maximum Hit Points.
To assume makes an *** of you and me. xD
What you fail to recognize is the mitigation potential of keeping the enemies displaced/moving.
A GF stands and fights in the same spot, never moving unless absolutely necessary and keeping the battlefield tidy and controlled. This has obvious benefits that you espouse as ideal, and which experience through other MMO's such as WoW have proven to be effective. However, all the while the GF is standing and fighting, he's taking damage. Even with Block, he will take damage, and a lot of it, because just as the players get to lay into static targets, the enemies get to lay into a static target.
When the tank is mobile, like the OP is suggesting his build would do, the mobs have to chase their target around, and all that time spent moving is time not spent dealing damage. Add in CC and displacement, like the Cleric's Sunburst knockback and other similar abilities, and the mobs will be scattered and ineffective. All the while the Clerics and Wizards are blasting them away with ranged attacks, and the Rogues are isolating and eliminating high-priority targets. In the end, it's entirely reasonable to think a skilled GWF tank can mitigate far more damage than an equally skilled GF.
Different strokes for different folks. ;D
@voidwatcherx: love the sig! Have you ever read The Chronicles of Malus Darkblade? (Warhammer Fantasy) http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer/Malus-Darkblade
I cannot say that I have. I came across this image on pure coincidence and I liked the imagery. But I have considered picking it up either as a physical copy or just buying it for the Kindle.
Sometimes it's scary when people make sense. Too bad people seem to be looking for a WoW reskin instead of a D&D based game where the only limits are set by your imagination.
Worded so much more clearly than I could have done myself, thank you!
In an action MMO such as NW, I (personally) cannot imagine that sitting in one spot eating damage from every source is a positive thing. For one, the cleric is not going to be particularly pleased with having to spend all his healing resources on one teammate. And secondly, it's going to cost many more potions in the long run.
But everyone has a right to pursue whatever style they feel married to!
I didn't respond to his post because basic common sense understands kiting and avoiding damage is mitigation and I though you clearly explained that idea in your original post, so there was no need to refute anything or keep rehasing the same thing we already discussed.
However, it does need to be clarified, the GF has a shield to mitigate as you compared it too sprint. They also have effective interrupts. As to the cleric, they should be spending any non-aoe heals on the tank regardless of who is tanking. You value skilled dps and if they are getting damaged, let them use a pot.
- hard to maintain threat
- opening yourself to mechanics that avoid mitigation
At least what I've seen in other games. You try being mobile, turn the wrong direction and the mechanics hit you as if you were hit from the back, where dodge and such don't exist. I don't see it as being very viable, but I don't mind it so long as it doesn't effect my damage oriented GWF play style. I'm all for making this class good at both the damage role, and the tanking role, just not good at both roles at the same time cause that'd be overpowered.
Old "Blood and Sand: Unchained" quest
Played more than 100 000 times!
> TRY IT NOW!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ecy4o6JqLc
The Guardian Fighter is a brilliant example of passive damage mitigation. A rock in a stormy sea, the GF stands strong against the tides of battle that wash over him, impassive and stout. With shield and heavy armor, as well as relative damage mitigation in the form of passive resistance bonuses, his primary role is to stand still and take damage while gathering threat or aggro and utilizing self-healing or damage-resistance increasing cooldown abilities. Another great example would be a World of Warcraft Protection specced Warrior or Paladin. It becomes slightly more active through the use of an on-demand cooldown which effectively puts the Fighter into a defensive stance to mitigate damage. This stance can be entered an infinite number of times so long as you have duration remaining, and duration of course recovers when it is not in use.
The Great Weapon Fighter, on the other hand, is an active damage mitigation character archetype. Using Movement, Crowd Control, and area of effect damage to protect herself and gather aggro or threat. Using Knockdown and Knockback the GWF pushes enemies out of position, forcing them to come back in order to fight. During those moments where the enemy is out of melee-reach with the GWF they cannot hurt her. Meanwhile thanks to the GWF's greater reach, she can still land a blow on foes as they try to close again. Should foes at moderate range, pushed back by the roar, try to engage at range, Come to Me interrupts their action, wasting the enemy's time spent activating that ability, and drags them in close for more attacks. During the forced movement section the enemy again cannot attack in a form of absolute mitigation. A WoW styled example of an active mitigation character would be the Monk, though only barely.
While players of set-piece fantasy who prefer movement-low combat, like WoW players, will prefer to stick with the Trinity of Heals/Tank/DPS they will find their style woefully under supported within NW on two counts. Firstly, that Clerics are not meant to be pure "Healers". And secondly that their Myopia is a hindrance.
In WoW and other set-piece combat games which rely heavily on auto-attack features or action bars with cooldowns, tanks and melee focused characters have a problem with Tunnel Vision. This occurs when all, or a majority, of enemies are within melee range of the character, and his attention focuses on them and their positioning for the purposes of PBAoE or Cone effects. This focus tends to cause them to miss incoming issues in some cases, such as adds or lost aggro that occurs when they're looking at the wrong part of the crowd they're fighting. To offset this problem most games give tanks absolute aggro control in the form of Targeted Taunt abilities.
This tendency to focus on enemies in melee is also what frustrates PvP play so desperately from a Developer standpoint. Due to the Tunnel Vision melee characters tend to form you have to account for the time between a player realizing they're taking damage from a ranged attack, registering the direction it is coming from, turning and moving towards that direction, and locating their attacker. All the while being attacked and damaged by the person fighting them from a position of relative safety. This is part of why many games with ranged characters either reduce the damage the character deals on it's baseline (City of Heroes) or causing ranged attackers to rely on interruptable or long cast time effects (WoW). They also sometimes mitigate the closing duration by giving the melee attacker through forced movement effects like Death Grip or Charge.
Neverwinter doesn't have a lot of absolute aggro management. And enemies tend to move around quite a lot, rather than standing in front of the GF waiting to be hit. Adds come from multiple directions, often at the same time and targeting different party members, and the game is much more aggressively action oriented. You can play the set-piece style of combat, but you wind up with a lot of trouble at the high end, when the healing capabilities start to run dry in comparison to incoming damage on a stationary target.
In short: The game is based on a different dynamic, both in flow and in expectations. Entering it with the idea of the static battle with movement phases isn't BAD but it will cause you problems you don't have in set piece combat games like WoW that you'll have to mitigate. Entering into it with the idea of dynamic combat, on the other hand, wherein players leverage their movement abilities to control the flow of combat in an aggressively action-oriented manner will find the game incredibly enjoyable.
-Rachel-
Ummm..no. Groups will absolutely say you can not come if they have a GF tank. This has been the case in every MMO created.
This is not completely true. Once upon a time back when MMO's used to be called MMORPG's. Back before WoW. People used to group for fun. The min/maxer mind-set came later when much more competitive raiding was implemented.
Edit: Sorry went a bit off topic.
- Drizzt Do'Urden
― R.A. Salvatore
This... The was a game called Everquest... It is still in existence, although only a shadow of it's former glory. In Everquest, you could go Adventuring (yea you adventured in Everquest, not waiting in towns for a queue to pop) with practically any group makeup and be successful. No "Tank" Class in your group? No biggie, we'll pull carefully and devise plans to defeat our enemies. wait... your gear isn't quite where it should be? No problem, our mage will summon some gear that you can use temporarily for our adventures while our enchanter will augment your abilities to increased levels... Unfortunately such a world no longer exists... but this is easily what Neverwinter can become!
Stop looking for the next WoW. Instead, play YOUR way and find way to adapt with like minded players. I really don't want to need any class in a party to be successful. I have ran many successful D&D campaigns with no tank or healer, be that is because in the D&D universe, anything really is possible.