as long as you dont use anything that heals, theres no aggro.
does anybody see the problem with the first sentance? clerics heal! any healing we do turns us into the hottest peice of *** on the field.
its not fun running around in circles waiting for the rest of the group to deal with the horde following you. and there was a guardian fighter in my group and a great weapon. we need hella less aggro, and most of my healing was via vampire-like healing.
Unfortunately, the assumption that healing is the driving factor with the Cleric aggro issue is false. (for me) I tried several experiments with my low level (1-16) cleric and my high level (30-40) cleric. I found that no buffing, no spell casting, literally, no action taken would still draw significant aggro at all levels. If you are a cleric and are within the "area of detection" of the mobs, you will be attacked. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with "healing aggro", just that there is a bigger issue that is probably AI in nature. As a player, you can adjust tactics and feats to mitigate healing aggro, but you can do nothing to fix the aggressive "cleric killing" AI of the mobs. To me, this is the driving reason I went back to my control wizard on Sunday. I wanted to enjoy the game for a while...
armor stats do not affect heals, the weapon however does. My clerics heals increased when I equipped a new weapon near the level cap because it adds directly to your heals.
Power stat is what does not effect it currently which is a bug.
Oh Atari how I miss you!
0
pineappleghostMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited March 2013
I wonder if the AI is targeting the character with the highest Charisma since that character would be the "leader." Just a silly idea based off some GMs that like to attack the "party leader" in 4e.
0
rtrnofdmaxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited March 2013
So here is my personal experience from this weekend (my only weekend):
Cloak Tower (3-4 runs): Very minor aggro issues. No problems pulling bosses.
Tower Siege (1 run): This run was pretty flawless, but we had a 28 GWF and a 30 GF. An add here or there, but nothing too bad.
Jarret Grim (solo questing): I was truly disappointed by this fight. He hits hard but is very avoidable. However my disappointment stems from not being able to keep my Man-At-Arms companion up. He kept aggro very well, but I just couldn't heal him. I finished the fight without him, but what is the point of being full heal specced if you can't heal his balls off.
"something" Crypts (2 runs): The first run went well as I was the lowest level and we had two GF. Second run was pure run for your life terror. I was the highest level character and the end boss was on me the whole fight, as well as what seemed to be every add.
I think the issue lies with one power: Astral Seal. My gripe is two-fold. First I think it's too powerful. Tossing this around onto each enemy in a fight will almost guarantee that your whole party ends the fight full. That cheapens the worth of already weak encounter heals. I gave up early trying to hit my allies with Healing Word in combat and instead looked for whatever enemy they were hitting so I could apply Astral Seal. Voila! Rogue heals up to full in seconds. Secondly, I don't think the healing it delivers should apply to the Cleric's aggro. Throw it on a mob and watch all the green pips fly in the air. It is no wonder you grab aggro as this power is a force multiplier that converts part of your allies DPS into aggro for you. I know it is applying aggro to the cleric because it procs the "Cleanse" feat.
Besides whatever fine tuning the devs are doing to the aggro tables, I would like to see Astral Seal reduced in efficacy so that it is just a maintenance heal, eliminate the healing aggro from Astral Seal (essentially making it sourceless), and greatly buff the healing output of the encounter powers.
0
pineappleghostMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
So here is my personal experience from this weekend (my only weekend):
Cloak Tower (3-4 runs): Very minor aggro issues. No problems pulling bosses.
Tower Siege (1 run): This run was pretty flawless, but we had a 28 GWF and a 30 GF. An add here or there, but nothing too bad.
Jarret Grim (solo questing): I was truly disappointed by this fight. He hits hard but is very avoidable. However my disappointment stems from not being able to keep my Man-At-Arms companion up. He kept aggro very well, but I just couldn't heal him. I finished the fight without him, but what is the point of being full heal specced if you can't heal his balls off.
"something" Crypts (2 runs): The first run went well as I was the lowest level and we had two GF. Second run was pure run for your life terror. I was the highest level character and the end boss was on me the whole fight, as well as what seemed to be every add.
I think the issue lies with one power: Astral Seal. My gripe is two-fold. First I think it's too powerful. Tossing this around onto each enemy in a fight will almost guarantee that your whole party ends the fight full. That cheapens the worth of already weak encounter heals. I gave up early trying to hit my allies with Healing Word in combat and instead looked for whatever enemy they were hitting so I could apply Astral Seal. Voila! Rogue heals up to full in seconds. Secondly, I don't think the healing it delivers should apply to the Cleric's aggro. Throw it on a mob and watch all the green pips fly in the air. It is no wonder you grab aggro as this power is a force multiplier that converts part of your allies DPS into aggro for you. I know it is applying aggro to the cleric because it procs the "Cleanse" feat.
Besides whatever fine tuning the devs are doing to the aggro tables, I would like to see Astral Seal reduced in efficacy so that it is just a maintenance heal, eliminate the healing aggro from Astral Seal (essentially making it sourceless), and greatly buff the healing output of the encounter powers.
Very skewed view due to your low levels. Even Astral Seal falls off as you get higher level. It falls from our strongest heal all the way to our fourth strongest. In order, Forgemaster's Flames is our strongest heal (Channel Divinity), then Astral Shield (Channel Divinity), then Soothing Light (Channel Divinity), then Astral Seal. Don't you think it's fighting that our strongest heals should be in our powered up mode? I do. That means you have to split your bar between skills that build Divinity fast and strong heals. That means you can't take all the heals otherwise you'll be Divinity starved.
0
rtrnofdmaxMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
edited March 2013
Well of course my view is skewed, it's my view.
As for the power of heals, if you are keeping up with 4E, Healing Word should be our strongest heal. Followed by Forgemaster's Flame as those are both powers that require you to spend a healing surge. Astral Shield and Soothing Light don't really map over so I can't speak to those. But Astral Shield is the high level spell of any of these, so perhaps it should be as effective as Healing Word. Astral Seal should always be a weak maintenance heal that lowers your overall healing burden, but can't keep someone up on its own.
[–]Cryptic_LordAzrael 3 points 2 minutes ago
Still tinkering with the aggro system. There was a time when Clerics could never pull aggro, and it made things a bit less hectic for them than we'd like. In the beta event they were pulling way way too much aggro though, that will certainly be fixed.
Regarding Cleric self heals, they will likely remain fairly minor for the Cleric. This is to help balance the fact that Clerics don't need to use as many health potions as other classes. Before the self heal reduction, Clerics would pretty much always have more gold than all other classes.
It was also creating situations where Clerics would just self heal tank through encounters.
So as unfortunate as the reduction is, it does make you a more concerned with taking damage in combat, which hopefully leads to a more satisfying experience at the end of the day.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
wolfsong84Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Well of course my view is skewed, it's my view.
lol, love it
0
frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
From the Ask Me Anything with Cryptic:
[–]Cryptic_LordAzrael 3 points 2 minutes ago
Still tinkering with the aggro system. There was a time when Clerics could never pull aggro, and it made things a bit less hectic for them than we'd like. In the beta event they were pulling way way too much aggro though, that will certainly be fixed.
Regarding Cleric self heals, they will likely remain fairly minor for the Cleric. This is to help balance the fact that Clerics don't need to use as many health potions as other classes. Before the self heal reduction, Clerics would pretty much always have more gold than all other classes.
It was also creating situations where Clerics would just self heal tank through encounters. So as unfortunate as the reduction is, it does make you a more concerned with taking damage in combat, which hopefully leads to a more satisfying experience at the end of the day.
or as we have seen, "sorry, u can't use heals, just switch to dps and let everyone in your group suck pots while u play a scaled down damage dealer. Leave the heals to cleric companions and pots"
Roger that Cryptic. we gotcha.
0
l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I was averaging 600/tick with 2 HoTs up at L34. I am dps spec'd recovery/crit/AP build.
Really want to dump Healing Word though, as I need more than Daunting, Forge, Brand for dps. Would still leave me with ~430/tick as long as I stay within 15'
Healing word is most likely staying though Without it I have to drink 1-2 pots between large pulls .. which I think is the intent they had. I did roll that way, but noticed my stacks going down pretty fast. Was unsustainable for a complete build choice.
So they have not accomplished anything except making us pot like hell on bosses. Those pit lord things in Helm's Hold map can't even break through my self healing lol. (as long as I avoid the one 3.5k hit)
Once you get Astral Shield, and potentially a ton of excellent healing feats in Divinity paragon path .... you would be double the healer that I am.
People are whining far too much about our healing. Yes our new 'feature' has a bug that was admitted in the AMA. Removes heal bonuses or something too.
There is a threat bug too, as some folk's testing can clearly show. Its not like its 1:1 damage/heal for threat. 1pt can overtake threat at 50% lol
0
shphgrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have a theory. I find it odd that this happened the second they added a debuff to the cleric. What if the debuff had the unforeseen effect of generating constant aggro. I mean its a debuff that is applied at all times so maybe.
I don't think they did this on purpose but as it seemed the healing debuff already had a bg where it nerfed the self healing even more then they wanted it to. like -75% as opposed to -50% it just goes to say maybe the debuff is bugged further causing the cleric to generate more aggro as they are the source of a debuff with a high percentage even if its on their-self..
its not just the debuff the aoe heals and the burst heal both drew the arggo too.
see my theory is that they dropped all threat built by damage and didn't drop it from healing.
so no matter what damage a party does, the heals instantly pull off them.
they simply need to make healing do 1% arggo at all times like it is now and add the 5% arggo to the highest damage dealer in the party that way its not the healer that draws the arggo all the time and they can throw out heals but if they start to do damage more than anyone else they draw that arggo with the heal/damage combo.
Oh Atari how I miss you!
0
pineappleghostMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
Clerics have received a global adjustment to their aggro, hopefully bringing them more in line with what's intended for their gameplay style. Thanks for all of your feedback!
Clerics have received a global adjustment to their aggro, hopefully bringing them more in line with what's intended for their gameplay style. Thanks for all of your feedback!
Better open up this servers so we can check to make sure it is working correctly.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
savadiousMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Clerics have received a global adjustment to their aggro, hopefully bringing them more in line with what's intended for their gameplay style. Thanks for all of your feedback!
this is good to hear but with way clerics heal it doing damage dont think healing needs agro to cleric why cant it be person getting healed gets the agro would fix tank agro issues at the same time.
Glad to see this has been posted, I only play healer classes in MMORPGs, I was reading everyone’s posts, and everyone is saying the same thing I was thinking about Cleric aggro being too high!
Over my BW3 experience only one tank was able to hold agro off me, and this is not a fare comparison, because that tank has been my tank for over seven years of playing together through various MMOs. We know each other’s play styles and he even admitted it was hard to do, because I didn’t hold back with him (like I held back with all the others ), and being an seasoned raider I did not and will not spec into reduced threat without a secondary bonus. (Reduced threat by 2/4/6% AND Improved HOTs by 1/2/3% *hint hint*)
Suggestion (as long as this won’t result in a lawsuit): As a joke, if a Cleric pulls aggro by more than 50% of the mobs on the encounter, the music stops and the Benny Hill sound track starts! I saw it mentioned in a previous post, but I’ve been thinking the same thing on every run I was on.
Keep listening, thanks Cryptic!
0
nastyvixenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 28Arc User
edited April 2013
It was a bug. known and said by dozens of posts here and in other threads. cryptic said they knew and it is already fixed and done. gone. that was over a week ago. wtf are you puppies still talking about it for? IT is done and fixed. No more cleric agro. good lord.
0
teapotguruMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 16Arc User
It was a bug. known and said by dozens of posts here and in other threads. cryptic said they knew and it is already fixed and done. gone. that was over a week ago. wtf are you puppies still talking about it for? IT is done and fixed. No more cleric agro. good lord.
[you saw nothing...]
This is so frustrating, as I love tanking and my friend has always played healer in previous MMOs. As a concerned tank, I've been keeping a close eye on the cleric forums after BW3. I want to see this fixed by BW4 as well as some fine tuning on guardian fighters as well.
Otherwise, guess I'm rolling a cleric ranged tank! :cool:
Brb, downloading Benny Hill soundtracks...
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited April 2013
Psst. Alpha is under an NDA.
Let's not get you or your friend in trouble by discussing leaked information
In any case all of this, the entirity of the thread, can always be adjusted if needed.
Even if it's still night right for BW4 it can be adjusted further.
Not right at Open Beta? State your mind and get it changed!
This is so frustrating, as I love tanking and my friend has always played healer in previous MMOs. As a concerned tank, I've been keeping a close eye on the cleric forums after BW3. I want to see this fixed by BW4.......
Last edited by ambisinisterr; Today at 07:22 PM. Reason: Alpha? What Alpha?
hmmmmmm I'm taking it that the cleric is not fixed LOL
looking more and more like 3 worthwhile classes available to play at launch. maybe 4 if they get the GWF fixed. Something tells me it's going to be lopsided in favor of the trickster rogue. I hope they get the cleric fixed. More reason we need a ton of feedback from Beta 4 if we are going to resolve the cleric issues. Apparently the alpha players don't play clerics.
Cleric and rogue will be the top played classes of the 5. I wont even bother pointing out why and all the facts to this . If you have not read or researched or seen any polls not only here but other websites and mag sites... well. sucks to be you.
0
frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2013
ahhh must have problems comprehending the post through google translate. Fail is Fail.
Comments
Unfortunately, the assumption that healing is the driving factor with the Cleric aggro issue is false. (for me) I tried several experiments with my low level (1-16) cleric and my high level (30-40) cleric. I found that no buffing, no spell casting, literally, no action taken would still draw significant aggro at all levels. If you are a cleric and are within the "area of detection" of the mobs, you will be attacked. I'm not saying there isn't a problem with "healing aggro", just that there is a bigger issue that is probably AI in nature. As a player, you can adjust tactics and feats to mitigate healing aggro, but you can do nothing to fix the aggressive "cleric killing" AI of the mobs. To me, this is the driving reason I went back to my control wizard on Sunday. I wanted to enjoy the game for a while...
Power stat is what does not effect it currently which is a bug.
Cloak Tower (3-4 runs): Very minor aggro issues. No problems pulling bosses.
Tower Siege (1 run): This run was pretty flawless, but we had a 28 GWF and a 30 GF. An add here or there, but nothing too bad.
Jarret Grim (solo questing): I was truly disappointed by this fight. He hits hard but is very avoidable. However my disappointment stems from not being able to keep my Man-At-Arms companion up. He kept aggro very well, but I just couldn't heal him. I finished the fight without him, but what is the point of being full heal specced if you can't heal his balls off.
"something" Crypts (2 runs): The first run went well as I was the lowest level and we had two GF. Second run was pure run for your life terror. I was the highest level character and the end boss was on me the whole fight, as well as what seemed to be every add.
I think the issue lies with one power: Astral Seal. My gripe is two-fold. First I think it's too powerful. Tossing this around onto each enemy in a fight will almost guarantee that your whole party ends the fight full. That cheapens the worth of already weak encounter heals. I gave up early trying to hit my allies with Healing Word in combat and instead looked for whatever enemy they were hitting so I could apply Astral Seal. Voila! Rogue heals up to full in seconds. Secondly, I don't think the healing it delivers should apply to the Cleric's aggro. Throw it on a mob and watch all the green pips fly in the air. It is no wonder you grab aggro as this power is a force multiplier that converts part of your allies DPS into aggro for you. I know it is applying aggro to the cleric because it procs the "Cleanse" feat.
Besides whatever fine tuning the devs are doing to the aggro tables, I would like to see Astral Seal reduced in efficacy so that it is just a maintenance heal, eliminate the healing aggro from Astral Seal (essentially making it sourceless), and greatly buff the healing output of the encounter powers.
Very skewed view due to your low levels. Even Astral Seal falls off as you get higher level. It falls from our strongest heal all the way to our fourth strongest. In order, Forgemaster's Flames is our strongest heal (Channel Divinity), then Astral Shield (Channel Divinity), then Soothing Light (Channel Divinity), then Astral Seal. Don't you think it's fighting that our strongest heals should be in our powered up mode? I do. That means you have to split your bar between skills that build Divinity fast and strong heals. That means you can't take all the heals otherwise you'll be Divinity starved.
As for the power of heals, if you are keeping up with 4E, Healing Word should be our strongest heal. Followed by Forgemaster's Flame as those are both powers that require you to spend a healing surge. Astral Shield and Soothing Light don't really map over so I can't speak to those. But Astral Shield is the high level spell of any of these, so perhaps it should be as effective as Healing Word. Astral Seal should always be a weak maintenance heal that lowers your overall healing burden, but can't keep someone up on its own.
[–]Cryptic_LordAzrael 3 points 2 minutes ago
Still tinkering with the aggro system. There was a time when Clerics could never pull aggro, and it made things a bit less hectic for them than we'd like. In the beta event they were pulling way way too much aggro though, that will certainly be fixed.
Regarding Cleric self heals, they will likely remain fairly minor for the Cleric. This is to help balance the fact that Clerics don't need to use as many health potions as other classes. Before the self heal reduction, Clerics would pretty much always have more gold than all other classes.
It was also creating situations where Clerics would just self heal tank through encounters.
So as unfortunate as the reduction is, it does make you a more concerned with taking damage in combat, which hopefully leads to a more satisfying experience at the end of the day.
or as we have seen, "sorry, u can't use heals, just switch to dps and let everyone in your group suck pots while u play a scaled down damage dealer. Leave the heals to cleric companions and pots"
Roger that Cryptic. we gotcha.
Really want to dump Healing Word though, as I need more than Daunting, Forge, Brand for dps. Would still leave me with ~430/tick as long as I stay within 15'
Healing word is most likely staying though
So they have not accomplished anything except making us pot like hell on bosses. Those pit lord things in Helm's Hold map can't even break through my self healing lol. (as long as I avoid the one 3.5k hit)
Once you get Astral Shield, and potentially a ton of excellent healing feats in Divinity paragon path .... you would be double the healer that I am.
People are whining far too much about our healing. Yes our new 'feature' has a bug that was admitted in the AMA. Removes heal bonuses or something too.
There is a threat bug too, as some folk's testing can clearly show. Its not like its 1:1 damage/heal for threat. 1pt can overtake threat at 50% lol
I don't think they did this on purpose but as it seemed the healing debuff already had a bg where it nerfed the self healing even more then they wanted it to. like -75% as opposed to -50% it just goes to say maybe the debuff is bugged further causing the cleric to generate more aggro as they are the source of a debuff with a high percentage even if its on their-self..
see my theory is that they dropped all threat built by damage and didn't drop it from healing.
so no matter what damage a party does, the heals instantly pull off them.
they simply need to make healing do 1% arggo at all times like it is now and add the 5% arggo to the highest damage dealer in the party that way its not the healer that draws the arggo all the time and they can throw out heals but if they start to do damage more than anyone else they draw that arggo with the heal/damage combo.
Been in that group! That and the group with four Control Wizards were the easiest dungeons. Hey maybe this is a Guardian Fighter problem...
Yup. And I don't see any point to make any kind of fighter anymore. I mean, why? Who would benefit from having a fighter? Nobody.
Clerics have received a global adjustment to their aggro, hopefully bringing them more in line with what's intended for their gameplay style. Thanks for all of your feedback!
Better open up this servers so we can check to make sure it is working correctly.
I am Savadious, and I approve of this post !
this is good to hear but with way clerics heal it doing damage dont think healing needs agro to cleric why cant it be person getting healed gets the agro would fix tank agro issues at the same time.
Over my BW3 experience only one tank was able to hold agro off me, and this is not a fare comparison, because that tank has been my tank for over seven years of playing together through various MMOs. We know each other’s play styles and he even admitted it was hard to do, because I didn’t hold back with him (like I held back with all the others
Suggestion (as long as this won’t result in a lawsuit): As a joke, if a Cleric pulls aggro by more than 50% of the mobs on the encounter, the music stops and the Benny Hill sound track starts!
Keep listening, thanks Cryptic!
[you saw nothing...]
This is so frustrating, as I love tanking and my friend has always played healer in previous MMOs. As a concerned tank, I've been keeping a close eye on the cleric forums after BW3. I want to see this fixed by BW4 as well as some fine tuning on guardian fighters as well.
Otherwise, guess I'm rolling a cleric ranged tank! :cool:
Brb, downloading Benny Hill soundtracks...
Let's not get you or your friend in trouble by discussing leaked information
In any case all of this, the entirity of the thread, can always be adjusted if needed.
Even if it's still night right for BW4 it can be adjusted further.
Not right at Open Beta? State your mind and get it changed!
Last edited by ambisinisterr; Today at 07:22 PM. Reason: Alpha? What Alpha?
hmmmmmm I'm taking it that the cleric is not fixed LOL
looking more and more like 3 worthwhile classes available to play at launch. maybe 4 if they get the GWF fixed. Something tells me it's going to be lopsided in favor of the trickster rogue. I hope they get the cleric fixed. More reason we need a ton of feedback from Beta 4 if we are going to resolve the cleric issues. Apparently the alpha players don't play clerics.