Would be interesting to see where the contributor got this information from, and if it's official/reliable: i.e. from the dev team, or from mining the game files.
If it is, then a lot of theorycrafting can start from this one piece of information.
The world is not beautiful; therefore, it is.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I didn't do much for theorycrafting last week, but it would be super easy to calculate since it shows your modified cool down time
100% -
Mod
---- x 100 = actual % increase. Compare that to your recovery %* in character screen
Base
* Think its half your recovery = 'cooldown reduction %' , if 100% reduction = half CD time
Could remove all recovery gear and test numbers again to see if its the same.
Of course all the DPS/HPS benefits from Recovery rely on the fight being long enough to get a 2nd cast in
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sendrienMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
On the contrary, damage and healing both suffer from diminishing returns. Even if you achieve 100% critical chance, you have only increased your healing and damage by the critical multiplier.
However, as your cooldown reduction approaches 100%, your healing/minute approaches infinity. Therefore, the only stat that gets more effective at higher levels is recharge rate.
Here's a simple example to demonstrate:
Let's assume a skill that heals for 500 has a recharge time of 20 seconds.
At 0% cooldown reduction, the skill can be used every 20 seconds, or 60/20 = 3 times per minute. Healing/minute = 1500
At 10% cooldown reduction, the skill can be used every 0.9*20 = 18 seconds, or 60/18 = 3.333 times per minute. HPM = 1667
At 25% cooldown reduction, the skill can be used every 0.75*20 = 15 seconds or 60/15 = 4 times per minute. HPM = 2000
At 50% cooldown reduction, the skill can be used every 0.5*20 = 10 seconds, or 60/10 = 6 times per minute. HPM = 3000
At 75% cooldown reduction, the skill can be used every 0.25*20 = 5 seconds, or 60/5 = 12 times per minute. HPM = 6000
At 99% cooldown reduction, the skill can be used every 0.01*20 = 0.2 seconds, or 60/0.2 = 300 times per minute. HPM = 150,000
..
When combined with Power and Critical Chance as secondary stat focuses on equipment, cooldown reduction becomes extremely potent. And while no one should expect to reach 99% CDR, it proves the point that your gains increase, not diminish, the higher this stat is.
This reveals a misunderstanding of "Cryptic Math." In Cryptic games, numbers like damage, healing, and casting time are multiplied or divided by 1.00 + percentage. In other words, a 25% reduction in recharge rate means the original time is now divided by 1.25 for a result of 80% not 75%. A %100 reduction reduces the original number by 2 (1+1). You can never reduce the recharge time to 0.
Soothing Light should be mentioned as a healing skill, at least through level 25 it's by far the strongest single target heal.
I think the whole build should revolve around Divinity Channeling. The bonuses are too much to ignore.
To me the Cleric is better named Divine Caster.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
It is a good lower level skill. Once you get the hang of dipping into Divinity mode just to buff once spell then flip back to recharge a bit or use encounters for dps, you may think otherwise.
Took me many levels to start playing that style, but would never do anything else now
This reveals a misunderstanding of "Cryptic Math." In Cryptic games, numbers like damage, healing, and casting time are multiplied or divided by 1.00 + percentage. In other words, a 25% reduction in recharge rate means the original time is now divided by 1.25 for a result of 80% not 75%. A %100 reduction reduces the original number by 2 (1+1). You can never reduce the recharge time to 0.
All your calculations are off.
Indeed, that is cooldown reduction. I posted earlier that 0.83333 is the factor between Recovery % and CD reduction % as well. So not 1:1 there either ><
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foundermeo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited March 2013
hmm game hasnt been released yet and already people are "meta"
i was thinking of trying out the cleric this weekend i tried the control wizzard last weekend and i'm a bit split. control wizards getting buffed but cleric looks cool
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] I AM A SEXY SHOELESS GOD OF WAR!!!
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prunetracyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I'm on board with the high recharge idea, but I'm not so sure about the Minimum Wisdom part. What are you putting points into when you level up? CHA and INT?
I'll grant that CHA has advantages over WIS, but I'm not sure I'd take INT over WIS. 1% recharge vs. 1% damage + 1.33% healing + 1% control bonus/resist seems like a poor trade. I think taking a 16/16/12/10/10/10 with CHA as primary is what I'm going to do, adding to CHA + WIS every 10 levels.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
One should certainly not completely ignore Wis. With tons of recovery and crit, scaling up your base damage would see higher returns.
I think you can get away with 15 and not nerf your CHA/INT
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stormhammyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
hmm game hasnt been released yet and already people are "meta"
i was thinking of trying out the cleric this weekend i tried the control wizzard last weekend and i'm a bit split. control wizards getting buffed but cleric looks cool
People will theory craft even with the smallest bit of information. ('-')
darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me.
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows./Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope.
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
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voqarMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
How exactly are people experts on classes already for a game that's not even out yet and that few have played extensively?
I am amuse.
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stormhammyMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 3Arc User
How exactly are people experts on classes already for a game that's not even out yet and that few have played extensively?
I am amuse.
There be your answer.
darthpanda16: Firefox crashed on me.
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows./Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope.
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
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pineappleghostMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited March 2013
We actually do have access to burst healing. Our two biggest heals are Astral Shield (Channel Divinity) and Forgemaster's Flame (Channel Divinity). For a majority of the game Forgemaster's Flame has been the only healing skill on my skill bar.
LoL, well we may all need to stat for tanky dps with only the occasional heal, if this aggro thing isn't worked out.
Not necessarily. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but after running the game with a non-pick up group (I was the only one that wasn't a long time friend of their's) I noticed that's there's an obvious difference between good Guardian Fighters and bad ones. I barely got mobbed when I had Guardian Fighter from the non-pick up group.
But it is much to hard for the general populace. Or maybe once the good PvE skills for threat holding and a PvE build is defined it'll get easier. It may not just be us Clerics. Part of the problem may be on them.
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chelvieMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
So I took the Tiefling character build listed on page one for the stats and specced it more towards the human build also listed on page 1 and I had an absolute blast. I had upwards of around 1600 Recovery with horrible gear at around level 45 and I rarely had to wait on cooldowns. I want to say that last I checked Astral Burst was at 8.7s cooldown.
It was great staying so busy! Prophecy of Doom really added to it with all the action point generation I was getting. It was no problem at all constantly throwing out dailies for the temp hit points (divine armor).
Also though, I was playing with a dedicated group of friends so we had the basics covered for group synergy. A GF, GWF, TR, myself as the cleric, and a PUG for the last spot (most often or not another TR). I feel if we had the 5th as a CW we would have just been unstoppable. It was an absolute blast. I recommend the Minimum Wisdom builds!
Not necessarily. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but after running the game with a non-pick up group (I was the only one that wasn't a long time friend of their's) I noticed that's there's an obvious difference between good Guardian Fighters and bad ones. I barely got mobbed when I had Guardian Fighter from the non-pick up group.
There is a huge difference in the experience. After my first pug GF... I do not think I will ever willingly repeat the situation unless they are buffed significantly to make up for skill. That is as sad comment... but... it is what it is.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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wolfsong84Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So I took the Tiefling character build listed on page one for the stats and specced it more towards the human build also listed on page 1 and I had an absolute blast. I had upwards of around 1600 Recovery with horrible gear at around level 45 and I rarely had to wait on cooldowns. I want to say that last I checked Astral Burst was at 8.7s cooldown.
It was great staying so busy! Prophecy of Doom really added to it with all the action point generation I was getting. It was no problem at all constantly throwing out dailies for the temp hit points (divine armor).
Also though, I was playing with a dedicated group of friends so we had the basics covered for group synergy. A GF, GWF, TR, myself as the cleric, and a PUG for the last spot (most often or not another TR). I feel if we had the 5th as a CW we would have just been unstoppable. It was an absolute blast. I recommend the Minimum Wisdom builds!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Did you or your group find itself needing more heals in BW3, or did you find the healing power of your cleric sufficient for the needs of your group?
The world is not beautiful; therefore, it is.
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chelvieMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
With my cleric companion and another out it helped. There was still Oh **** moments of course. As a maintenance healer I just accepted that I wouldn't be able to keep everyone topped off.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Not necessarily. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but after running the game with a non-pick up group (I was the only one that wasn't a long time friend of their's) I noticed that's there's an obvious difference between good Guardian Fighters and bad ones. I barely got mobbed when I had Guardian Fighter from the non-pick up group.
But it is much to hard for the general populace. Or maybe once the good PvE skills for threat holding and a PvE build is defined it'll get easier. It may not just be us Clerics. Part of the problem may be on them.
Indeed. I had huge variances in instance play with parties. That all has to come down to tank, perhaps a second cleric, and dps assisting with the adds (and your safety)
Sure things were bugged with heal threat, was pretty easy to test with tossing a HW on a passerby and getting bumrushed a minute later from half way across the map.
Some people it seems could not play at all last weekend, or so the story is. I just try and help to see where things went wrong, see why their weekend was completely different from mine. The two bugs are a non-issue, since they will not be in the next build. Seems that is a fool's errand though.
I rerolled a Tiefling with Recovery prime, secondary crit then AP once I got the feat for Ar Pen. Has a great time and was able to cycle through my abilities very quickly. Not 15c CD but 11s. Makes all the difference. Gives you 100% Forge uptime too
Definitely the best scaling stat. Still ended up with 18 Wis though (with campfire buff), after taking all creation/leveling points in Int/Cha.
Never hurts to have that 8% dmg / 10% + heals either
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mewbreyMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 517Bounty Hunter
edited March 2013
Kinda odd how the main "cleric" stat is intended to be wisdom, yet due to such lower healing numbers it scaling is too poor for it to be of any real use for raw healing output compare to cool down reduction that is on a different stat. Perhaps they should change the main recommended stat from wisdom to charisma?
From what we are seeing, it is no small gap between the difference of wisdom and charisma too...
However a "PUG" (P.U.G) be an acronym for Pick Up Group. It also be interchangeable with the term "pub" which be an abbreviation for "public".
Merry Christmas!!! :D:D
***
@topic:
So should the devs tweak the stats to make Wisdom (which is supposed to be the stat every Cleric maxes) more powerful? I imagine it wouldn't be difficult for them to change the scaling by launch. Or does everyone prefer that an Intelligent Cleric is still a viable (even optimal) build?
Also, if anyone has a link to information on what each stat affects, I'd love to see it. I made my Cleric 16 STR 18 WIS 12 CHA for roleplay reasons, but I don't know how that affected my character's mechanical capabilities.
Comments
Would be interesting to see where the contributor got this information from, and if it's official/reliable: i.e. from the dev team, or from mining the game files.
If it is, then a lot of theorycrafting can start from this one piece of information.
100% -
Mod
---- x 100 = actual % increase. Compare that to your recovery %* in character screen
Base
* Think its half your recovery = 'cooldown reduction %' , if 100% reduction = half CD time
Could remove all recovery gear and test numbers again to see if its the same.
Of course all the DPS/HPS benefits from Recovery rely on the fight being long enough to get a 2nd cast in
Well, enemies you can one-shot are not worth theorycrafting over.
Definitely rerolling a Tiefling this weekend. Hope to get him up to same level quickly!
This reveals a misunderstanding of "Cryptic Math." In Cryptic games, numbers like damage, healing, and casting time are multiplied or divided by 1.00 + percentage. In other words, a 25% reduction in recharge rate means the original time is now divided by 1.25 for a result of 80% not 75%. A %100 reduction reduces the original number by 2 (1+1). You can never reduce the recharge time to 0.
All your calculations are off.
Seven Against Thay: An RP-Focused Guild for all Races and Classes
Given the limited scaling of power, I think that is a great decision.
I think the whole build should revolve around Divinity Channeling. The bonuses are too much to ignore.
To me the Cleric is better named Divine Caster.
Took me many levels to start playing that style, but would never do anything else now
Indeed, that is cooldown reduction. I posted earlier that 0.83333 is the factor between Recovery % and CD reduction % as well. So not 1:1 there either ><
i was thinking of trying out the cleric this weekend i tried the control wizzard last weekend and i'm a bit split. control wizards getting buffed but cleric looks cool
I'll grant that CHA has advantages over WIS, but I'm not sure I'd take INT over WIS. 1% recharge vs. 1% damage + 1.33% healing + 1% control bonus/resist seems like a poor trade. I think taking a 16/16/12/10/10/10 with CHA as primary is what I'm going to do, adding to CHA + WIS every 10 levels.
I think you can get away with 15 and not nerf your CHA/INT
People will theory craft even with the smallest bit of information. ('-')
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows./Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope.
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
I am amuse.
There be your answer.
Hawk:Do this. closing thread
frankieraye: I'll see if we can replace the woman with a stick figure and the tiger fangs with marshmallows./Issues like these need to get escalated quickly to minimize the damage.
Kantorek: Yeah.. you should try it. It's awesome.
Sihndra: Nope- not currently possible under any circumstances. Sorry.
LokisDottir: I mean...not haunting the forums, nope nope.
Konariraiden: You don't know what you are up against. You will lose.
^ best heal ever !
Not necessarily. I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade, but after running the game with a non-pick up group (I was the only one that wasn't a long time friend of their's) I noticed that's there's an obvious difference between good Guardian Fighters and bad ones. I barely got mobbed when I had Guardian Fighter from the non-pick up group.
But it is much to hard for the general populace. Or maybe once the good PvE skills for threat holding and a PvE build is defined it'll get easier. It may not just be us Clerics. Part of the problem may be on them.
It was great staying so busy! Prophecy of Doom really added to it with all the action point generation I was getting. It was no problem at all constantly throwing out dailies for the temp hit points (divine armor).
Also though, I was playing with a dedicated group of friends so we had the basics covered for group synergy. A GF, GWF, TR, myself as the cleric, and a PUG for the last spot (most often or not another TR). I feel if we had the 5th as a CW we would have just been unstoppable. It was an absolute blast. I recommend the Minimum Wisdom builds!
There is a huge difference in the experience. After my first pug GF... I do not think I will ever willingly repeat the situation unless they are buffed significantly to make up for skill. That is as sad comment... but... it is what it is.
Not the smushy faced dog.
It be Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pug
However a "PUG" (P.U.G) be an acronym for Pick Up Group. It also be interchangeable with the term "pub" which be an abbreviation for "public".
Glad you enjoyed it!
Did you or your group find itself needing more heals in BW3, or did you find the healing power of your cleric sufficient for the needs of your group?
Indeed. I had huge variances in instance play with parties. That all has to come down to tank, perhaps a second cleric, and dps assisting with the adds (and your safety)
Sure things were bugged with heal threat, was pretty easy to test with tossing a HW on a passerby and getting bumrushed a minute later from half way across the map.
Some people it seems could not play at all last weekend, or so the story is. I just try and help to see where things went wrong, see why their weekend was completely different from mine. The two bugs are a non-issue, since they will not be in the next build. Seems that is a fool's errand though.
I rerolled a Tiefling with Recovery prime, secondary crit then AP once I got the feat for Ar Pen. Has a great time and was able to cycle through my abilities very quickly. Not 15c CD but 11s. Makes all the difference. Gives you 100% Forge uptime too
Never hurts to have that 8% dmg / 10% + heals either
From what we are seeing, it is no small gap between the difference of wisdom and charisma too...
Merry Christmas!!!
***
@topic:
So should the devs tweak the stats to make Wisdom (which is supposed to be the stat every Cleric maxes) more powerful? I imagine it wouldn't be difficult for them to change the scaling by launch. Or does everyone prefer that an Intelligent Cleric is still a viable (even optimal) build?
Also, if anyone has a link to information on what each stat affects, I'd love to see it. I made my Cleric 16 STR 18 WIS 12 CHA for roleplay reasons, but I don't know how that affected my character's mechanical capabilities.