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Scale of 1-10, how happy are you with the class/leveling system?
morvian3520
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 4 Arc User
I personally have to say I'm not happy with it very much at all. I see it as a very basic and frankly disappointing system.
This game was billed as a DnD experience, it certainly isn't that.
It was billed as a sort of successor to NWN and NWN2. It's not that either.
I would rather see Cryptic take their time and fix this thing than watch them release it in anything close to its current state. I don't think the game as it is will hold players for long. I know that Cryptic can make a good game. They made City of Heroes. Then they started releasing things too early and giving them no support. Oh, and stopped listening to or communicating with players.
I say take out the PvP, move back towards 4e DnD. PvP is generally the smallest section of MMO players. MMOs are held to be low skill games anyway, and most PvPers prefer MOBA style games or are playing the MMO while awaiting the new shiny FPS. The loyal customers that spend money in MMOs are roleplayers and PvE players. It just so happens that they are also the people that played NWN and NWN2. Why not appeal to them?
This game was billed as a DnD experience, it certainly isn't that.
It was billed as a sort of successor to NWN and NWN2. It's not that either.
I would rather see Cryptic take their time and fix this thing than watch them release it in anything close to its current state. I don't think the game as it is will hold players for long. I know that Cryptic can make a good game. They made City of Heroes. Then they started releasing things too early and giving them no support. Oh, and stopped listening to or communicating with players.
I say take out the PvP, move back towards 4e DnD. PvP is generally the smallest section of MMO players. MMOs are held to be low skill games anyway, and most PvPers prefer MOBA style games or are playing the MMO while awaiting the new shiny FPS. The loyal customers that spend money in MMOs are roleplayers and PvE players. It just so happens that they are also the people that played NWN and NWN2. Why not appeal to them?
Post edited by morvian3520 on
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That's not what this is; it's an MMORPG.
With so many people, the game changes from being a small cooperative experience, into a competative society in which inevitably (and with no fear of death due to respawning) people are going to want to fight against eachother. An MMO without PVP is impotent, castrated; how else to determine who is the best at a class? It drives competition and encourages play. It's removal would be denying a significant audience, and a means of promotion for the game (people watch PVP videos, characters become internet famous- nobody watches PVE except for world firsts).
You can't have the full range of character customisation, multiclassing due to this; everything needs to be tightly controlled in order to best present fair and balanced gameplay (and the most polished result for each class).
Furthermore, lots of people keep complaining about how few classes and races there are at the moment- I would ask are people not aware of how long it takes to do things when making a game? Everything needs to be developed, created, tested. It's just unreasonable the expectations that are going around; for there to be like 40 classes and races, the ability to make your own, multiclassing etc. and all before launch :S
So far along in the development cycle, it would be financial suicide for them to start over, so that's not going to happen.
Anyways, I voted 8/10 (out of the 3 options out of ten that were positive- you must really hate this game ;D)
Only thing I would want for more of would be: puzzles, environmental challenges (like climbing or jumping), interactive environments, different routes through a dungeon (based upon stealth for example, sneaking inside and opening a lever to let rest of party through), dangerous traps that you actually have to be wary of, secrets. Stuff like that, which would move away from linear dungeon grinding.
I love almost everything about this game. The only thing I don't love is the ludicrously restrictive leveling system. There's no meaningful customization at all. Everyone loves WoW so much and keeps using it as an example, so I'll do the same. Every class there has 2-3 good leveling paths to choose from. Neverwinter classes seem to be stuck leveling along a single path, with no room for the player to make any important decisions about how to build the character. Balance is one thing, but making everyone identical is something else.
Case in point: Control Wizard. Beyond the rather unexciting fact that this is a wizard that for some reason only uses ice and force spells (which, again, the player has no choice over), you level up gaining these abilities in an alternating manner. Why not have an ice tree of spells, a force tree, and some other tree? Why must I struggle to use two separate mechanics that don't have synergy with each other? More importantly, why can't I pick spells? Why isn't it my choice to use sleep or web instead of ice? The other classes are similar. The original 4e Player's Handbook has a number of powers at each level for the player to choose from. Granted, some don't translate well to a game. But having only one power that you are stuck with each time you get a power is just wrong.
I understand the appeal of PvP, but what good is beating someone if you didn't even get to pick your build? It's difficult for me to see value in my character if it's actually the developers' character that I got to name and play as.
That being said, right from the character creation screen I was disappointed. Out of every class they basically picked ONE build and everyone who chooses that class gets that same build. There's practically no selection whatsoever. =\
Let the horizons run white, and shadows turn light.
Honestly I like the combat, I think the system works well for at least the Rogue an the abilities I have so far. I say expand on the abilites an let us have more of a choice on our feats n abilites an the model will work.
Considering on future expansions this game could have 20 plus core classes an 12 or more races. Then add in Paragon and Epic destinies paths. No other MMO has this much. So let us make sure the devs understand what we want is the core classes and races an then we can build upon there. Let us build our defenders, controlers, strikers and leaders as we have played it on the table top. Just get the mechanics n code the abilities correctly an let us build what we have played on paper an now get to transfer over to this.
Yes. This. A thousand times, this. You have just been handed a cookie cutter character, like in Diablo or something. WHICH IS A GREAT GAME.... but it's not DnD. And this is. And it's DnD players who will be playing this game, because it's the world we know. If they cannot or do not want to deliver the DnD experience, they will lose almost the entirety of their player base.
You make a basic mistake here. Your assuming that Neverwinter is attempting to emulate 3.0 or 3.5 rules. Neverwinter is built on a slight variant of the AD&D 4.0 rules.
The biggest variants being the time frame powers recharge in and that we have a more limited selection of active powers at one time. Though we do get a decent selection of powers to choose from.
DDO is based around the 3.5 rules and does a decent job of emulating those rules. And Neverwinter Nights is built around the 4.0 rule set. That is the fundamental mistake you are making here.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
O really? Well lets look at the wizard shall we? Level 1 AT LEVEL 1! there are 5 at will powers. In the game there is 1. AT LEVEL 1! there are 5 Encounter powers, in the game there is 0. You get 1 choice at level 3.... ONE CHOICE. AT LEVEL 1 you get 3 daily powers that do damage and one that crowd controls, in the game you get none until level 4. Then yet again you get *gasp* 1 choice. Don't even mention the book, if they were following 4e we wouldn't see things like "trickster rogue" which is a guideline for a possible class. Not a rulebook/setup for how to build it in a video game.
Let me give you a count regarding the CW Comparing to the book, the 60 levels in game are supposed to represent 20 levels in the book yes?
SpellStorm Paragon level 20 mage 4e
22 Encounter powers that deal damage
13 Encounter Powers that crowd control (12 that do both)
38... 38 Daily powers. 38...
5 at wills at level 1 and 4 class features at level 1 (non-combat)
In the game at level 60 a Wizard has
4 at wills
11 Encounter powers
and 5 daily powers.
You want to talk 4.0 rule set? lets go, I'll throw every class ability from Cleric to Wizard at you. AND thats only the first of 3 players handbooks.
Neverwinter (NOT neverwinter nights) does a bad job of simulating the book into a game.
What they did was take the book as a reference guide and make a game off it... I just wish they did a little more plagiarism and a little less innovation on something that was good. If they copied the book as a rule set and tried to closely mirror it, while also adapting it to a game I feel like I wouldn't have played a Wizard that feels like a corpse dragger in the later levels.
Thank you for that.... I actually broke a smile at your post. Nothing has annoyed me more than the, "You are thinking 3.5 not 4e argument." The fanboi's need to face facts. Cryptic dropped the ball and has developed a game with MASSIVE core flaws.
Slight variant of 4E, really? lol
Btw this isn't NWN. Seems to me you are making even bigger fundamental mistakes.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
And the new GWF is **** weak...that is suppose to tank? I got all the aggro and the GWF was not abble to do a thing. The GF either even if he spammed taunt like hell...Way to go PW.
GWF is meant for dps. Striker. But yeah he sucks. His dodge is a sprint and it is awful. His powers are ungodly slow... and who was the brain child that make the right mouse button power attack a charge... oh yeah that works well when you are rooted and have a mob around you.... ingenius.
If this game played like NWN or NWN 2, I wouldn't be playing it. I want an action game that has D&D lore, and that's exactly what I"m getting.
The game isn't going to magically change to NWN3 because a few people come and whine on the forums every couple days, hate to break it to you. This game is an acton-game, with D&D lore, loosely based on the 4e system. It is also an MMO. Deal with it.
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It's simple enough for newbies to understand, and complex enough to really make your character unique if you choose.
HOWEVER, as it stands, most of the things that make each character unique aren't implemented yet. I really look forward to these things as they will up the customization even more.
Number of classes: Is going to be quite a few. If you check auction house under the ones you can search, there are about 10 of them. That's a pretty decent helping of classes. There are also classes listed on gear drops, that aren't in the auction house search...which would suggest even more.
Class customization-
Feat Points: These may seem like your standard run of the mill points in other games, but they aren't. You aren't limited to using only one tree. You can put 5 points in one line, 10 in another line and 5 in the last and STILL be able to put points into ANY of the paragon choices at the end.
Paragon Trees: This isn't in game yet. However it looks to be a way to really customize your character. This choice gives you a variety of at-will, encounter, and class powers for each tree. Right now, the mage option available is lighting. This means someone will be able to replace the chill effect, and some of the other things down the line, effectively turning from a ice mage, into a lighting one. Sucks that it's not in game yet, but it's a nice system.
Leveling: I haven't found any issue with the leveling system, you are given points to put into things, just like you would if you were really playing. Experience would give you more to work with. I run about 1-2 levels behind my quests, which I'm fine with, as it keeps the content challenging and fun to play.
My only problem with the class/level system: I wish we were allowed attribute points at least every 5 levels. When your equipment gives you 100's of points, it feels as though the couple of points you get to add every 10 levels doesn't have much over-all effect or personalization.
Yep, pretty much sums it up for me too... except for Tera, that had me going for a few months, till the upgrade fail after fail of the armors with no hint of progression got me so frustrated I logged off and went back to mmo hunting..... Many things in this game are bugging me. I guess mainly cause I see the potential is there but 3 betas later, I havn't seem any of the improvements I was hoping for. Except for the annoying stance of the CW, but still not being able to move while casting at will spells has me not feeling the....action...
So so wanted to see a change in the indentifying of items as well. was hoping for more skills, one for lore skill to be able to have the skill to identify a lot of the items like in NWN.
I really want to hear from the devs about what they have planned for changes and improvements. Not have to wait for open beta or release to come about to confirm that this isnt the game for me I thought it was going to be.
Fighter classes are defender in D&D 4e, even the GWF. Unless this game goes out of its way to defines them differently? GWFs are suppose to be a pseudo tank/DPS class with aggro mechanics.
It's that big of a difference.
I'm not familiar with how GWF was but, after trying every class up to 15 I have to saw that GWF felt like he was wearing newspaper for armor. Even tricksters and wizards have an easier time leveling solo.
I even almost... gasp... died, as GWF. Not funny. Not funny at all.
It dosen't matter what system im playing, you can make it fun. For me, this game captures that feel of being an adventurer. Of being in a group, fighting against evil. Thats what i look for in D&D, then i look at the system. So who cares if its a carbon copy of the tabletop game.
Once you get used to them, they're not that bad. Their 'dodge' mechanic is a bit unusual and you have to do a lot of positioning. They're fun once you get the hang of it though.
Oh... and psst. You might die from time to time. It's okay. It happens.
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--Part 2: A Blind Eye (NW-DI3QTHZGJ)
--Part 3: Dodo's Dinner (NW-DHPA8O253)
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--The Wizard of Eldeur (NW-DRKQNE4S7)
Sure, but doing that is the player's responsibility. Making the game work well is the developer's responsibility, and so players are venting a bit of frustration that they don't feel the developers delivered the best combat interface for them to tell their own stories with. nobody's saying you can't enjoy the game for what it is, just that some of us wish that it was better than that.