I have to say as a prolific MMO player and beta-tester nothing annoys me more then half *** pansy reasons for doing quests. Want an example of what I mean, play SWTOR long enough and eventually you run into the penultimate pansy. A Jedi-Master who is incapable of killing a bear in the woods. He's not busy, just lazy and/or incompetent.
In Neverwinter I (I got to 20 this weekend, just starting on the Blackdagger content) have yet to run into a single quest where there wasn't a good reason as to why the quest giver couldn't do what he was asking you to do. Sometimes it was a little old lady, sometimes it was a Guard protecting a mage who was unbinding the undead. Even the standard Kill/Collect quests had good reasons other then that the quest giver hungered for scalps the gory sick *******.
I noticed this as well. It shows attention to detail.
Loved it.
Thank you, sir, for typing what I was too lazy to do. As it stands right now the game will not get a single dollar from me. There is ABSOLUTELY no customization. You are locked in a path chosen by someone and that is it. You level up, get predetermined skills, predetermined armor, predetermined weapon... Done.
Feels like playing a typical linear shooter which requires you to press E to initiate a cut scene after shooting some "bad" guys...
What would i enjoy? Passive skills (feats) and skill modifiers similar to path of exile [TONS of of skills and skill modifiers to choose from], skill selection similar to guild wars [use more than one predetermined weapon/skills], gear selection similar to eve online [wanna use lasers on gallente ships? go nuts!].
ofc we do not live in a perfect world (lol at the website URL) but for the love of the gods, we beg for more customization options!
Neverwinter is almost entirely unlike 4E in terms of mechanics.
The classes are most certainly not split in the way Neverwinter does it. Neverwinter just took some example level 1 builds, and turned them into classes.
Neverwinter does seem to capture some of the spirit of 4E tactical combat, but doesn't come close in terms of build options.
Agreed, there can be no question that this game does not use D&D mechanics. There have been efforts to place a D&D-like veneer over the UI, but at the core this is still the Cryptic engine.
The problem is, this game carries the Dungeons and Dragons logo, and the name 'Neverwinter'. There have been many D&D games over the decades, and every single one, without exception, has used some version of the D&D rules. The ones set in Neverwinter are particularly well-known, and fans of those games will have very definite expectations that Neverwinter Online will continue in this tradition, and use D&D mechanics.
Furthermore, when 4E was released it was quite common to see comments along the lines of it playing more like an MMO than an RPG. In fact, the general consensus was that the 4e Ruleset would port to a computer game very well, with very little need for modification. So players of the tabletop game with no experience of the previous computer games will also expect this game to use 4E mechanics.
Neither group is going to be fooled by the UI. Both know the D&D mechanics too well.
These two groups will collectively form a significant portion of the potential market for this game. Indeed, both the word 'Neverwinter' and the Dungeons and Dragons logo are being deliberately used as drawcards, capitalising on the popularity of the IP. But these drawcards carry with them expectations based on the long history of games in this IP.
These fans will be expecting this game to use the 4E mechanics. Some will get over the discovery that it doesn't, and enjoy the game for what it is. Some will not, and are going to write angry posts on blogs and diverse forums about it generating negative word of mouth for the game.
If PEW/Cryptic has done anything to manage these expectations, I have not seen it so far. Nowhere have I seen a specific disclaimer that the game is not using D&D mechanics.
Is this a fun game? Looks like it so far. But I would suggest that PWE/Cryptic might want to start making it crystal clear on the main page of this site that they are not using 4E mechanics, so the backlash can be brought forward, managed, and hopefully defused before launch day.
First up, for those who read my OP, I'm sorry, I shouldn't haven't posted whilst irritated... hopefully my edited post is less flammable.
I'm willing to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt when it comes to them being genuine about receiving feedback. I believe they want to create a fun, enjoyable, fast paced, free to play game. Those of us who like it, will reward them by paying for extras. Those who don't wont, and their feedback will help Cryptic in determining what people are willing/not willing to pay for.
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razorlanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited March 2013
My initial reaction was one of annoyance. Some of you might remember some of the really old Forgotten Realms PC games. Even in those old games, there were several slightly different camera choices available, although admittedly they were all variations on top-down or third person. It bothers me to no end that there are customizable controls for zoom which do nothing at all unless you are in the vanity camera mode. It seems like a huge step backward. Once I got past that issue and managed to get into the game, it seemed alright, except that with the aforementioned camera angle, quite a few areas, especially in the city of Neverwinter, seemed much too cluttered. It made it difficult to really appreciate much of what I was seeing. I was also disappointed that most of the city seemed to consist more of clutter and less of explorable areas than I had expected. There also seemed to be a distinct lack of side quests, for the most part, in the first several areas through level 20ish. As several others here mentioned, there also needs to be more customization available for our characters. We have a limited number of abilities given to us, and even some of those, we are unable to use when they might be helpful due to a similarly limited number of hotkey slots available. For example, a rogue has difficulties fitting in the abilities that increase your stealth skill because it would mean having to remove from your lineup an ability that actually has damage involved, like one of the AoEs or ranged abilities. So, in addition to having more choices available, it would also be helpful to get a few more hotkey slots to put them in, so we have more choice as to when we want to use something and what we have slotted for groups or PvP. This game has promise, but it needs some tweaks to make it really shine.
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ivsakenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
The one and only gripe I have with this game is the limited classes. Every other part of the game I was impressed with. My only advice is to make your number 1 priority to get more classes out, and to work on the skill system.
I am very disappointed with number of skills and skill slots available in the game. If we ignore dodging, left and right mouse buttons (which should not be considered skills [they are auto attacks]) we are left with 4 skills (well 3 and a half). I would like to see more.
I actually like the idea of having less action bars and more skills. Than the choices matter more and every character will be more unique. It will also open up more builds instead of one cookie cutter build that does it all. I much prefer the guild wars/secret world approach to action bars and skills than the world of warcraft approach with 40+ skills on the action bar. In the end, you only use about 5 TOPS in most MMOs.
Overall I enjoyed the beta. I didn't invest that much time because I'd rather experience the content when the game goes live. However I do have some pointers.
The achievement system was a let down, the ui was hard to navigate and could use some more graphics, the achievements themselves could also improve, take a look at pw's core connect or the world of warcraft implemention(Just don't have them rewarding anything but cosmetic/vanity stuff).
I'd also like that the stat rolls(the dices at the character creation) matter more, Imo in the end having +1 or +2 constitution didn't change that much.
I'd also see some more deity choices(evil ones), and make them count. For now they don't do much, at least they could do something, cosmetic or whatever.
The combat system was good though, I liked that you couldn't run around and hit everything while running, gave the attacks more weight and it wasn't that hard to dodge attacks with the shift movement system. The world looked great but kinda instanced, but that's fine, nothing game breaking.
Now I just want to see the profession system, I hope it's actually useful to some point (more like star wars galaxies than world of warcraft).
I have to agree with a lot of people complaining about the game. Im arround neverwinter forums for almost 2 years now and during that time a lot of people warn about good skills, feats, weapons, etc implementention... guess we were all ignored....
Its a shame because the combat is RLY GOOD and the enviroment too but i think thats all.... No character costumization at all, no weapon/armor choice, no decent feat (just a skill tree), skills are a big joke, deities dont do nothing, no background bonus, and i can go on all night saying what bad about the game.... the only thing the game have to do with D&D is the IP.. nothing more!
Dnt get me wrong, i played on beta and i will definly play when the game launch but cryptic have a lot of work to do.
This game have a lot of potential but theres alot of things that must be changed.
Guild wars did it very well. at any given time you would have from 8 (gw1) to 25 (gw2) skills. here you have... what... 3-4?
And yeah i dont like wow's approach either, i think everyone is trying to move away from having a billion of bars covering your screen.
Secondly, I do not understand what you mean by "Than the choices matter more and every character will be more unique."
Skill tree (if it can be called a tree[trees have branches]) is so linear it is painful. it is a straight line going downwards with a "new" skill being unlocked every level. Therefore the only difference between two level 20 wizards/rogues/tanks/etc is the different combination of 4 skills they use. It is sad.
Guild wars did it very well. at any given time you would have from 8 (gw1) to 25 (gw2) skills. here you have... what... 3-4?
And yeah i dont like wow's approach either, i think everyone is trying to move away from having a billion of bars covering your screen.
Secondly, I do not understand what you mean by "Than the choices matter more and every character will be more unique."
Skill tree (if it can be called a tree[trees have branches]) is so linear it is painful. it is a straight line going downwards with a "new" skill being unlocked every level. Therefore the only difference between two level 20 wizards/rogues/tanks/etc is the different combination of 4 skills they use. It is sad.
1. From what I understood you get more abilities later when you pick your paragon tree? is that incorrect? They could also release more skills later, who knows. But I do hope we will have 3x the number of skills that we can use, at least.
2. What I mean is that if you have less action bars, and more skills to choose between, you'll see characters that are more unique. For example, instead of having one character with the same skill sets we could have 5-8 different builds that are similar good, but with different skill sets. It would just open up more choices.
But like I said, I didn't play that far, I just hope we see at least 3x the number of skills that we have action bars.
I have to agree with a lot of people complaining about the game. Im arround neverwinter forums for almost 2 years now and during that time a lot of people warn about good skills, feats, weapons, etc implementention... guess we were all ignored....
Its a shame because the combat is RLY GOOD and the enviroment too but i think thats all.... No character costumization at all, no weapon/armor choice, no decent feat (just a skill tree), skills are a big joke, deities dont do nothing, no background bonus, and i can go on all night saying what bad about the game.... the only thing the game have to do with D&D is the IP.. nothing more!
Dnt get me wrong, i played on beta and i will definly play when the game launch but cryptic have a lot of work to do.
This game have a lot of potential but theres alot of things that must be changed.
About no armor choices. I've seen a lot of topics about that but for the first 20 levels (that I played) I had a couple of different armor types to choose between.. Did anyone actually explore?? there where hidden puzzles and bosses throughout the zones that rewarded armors. I remember finding a neat looking plated/cloth armor for the trickster rogue with enchantment sockets, nothing like that was available from the quest rewards or drops, it was totally different from what I could have at that level.
I believe when he said that there is no armor/weapon customization he was talking about option to use heavy/light/mage armor or wielding single/dual dagers or dual swords... a bow?
after all what stops you from picking up a sword? if the sword is painted red does that mean it can not be used?
*need bachelors degree in engineering to use a computer. otherwise it will not turn on*
I believe when he said that there is no armor/weapon customization he was talking about option to use heavy/light/mage armor or wielding single/dual dagers or dual swords... a bow?
after all what stops you from picking up a sword? if the sword is painted red does that mean it can not be used?
*need bachelors degree in engineering to use a computer. otherwise it will not turn on*
Every game needs a suspension of disbelief. Do you really think a fighter couldn't wear a wizard's robes if he wanted to? Or that a Wizard couldn't struggle into the leathers of a rogue? They are game mechanics. Every game has them. This game has weapon restrictions and I don't really have a problem with it. I really don't need twenty different weapon types to make my character feel 'unique'. He is unique. He's mine, after all.
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mogwaiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Welcome all to modern MMO's where they let you play the raw game until you care about your character(s) THEN start adding content where when it doesn't function properly it will come off as the users faults for demanding the rush of said content.
At that stage your faced with 2 basic options, either deal with it & roll with the punches or move on.
I can easily see several clear distinctions of players coming together for this MMO. Soon these forums will be filled with all sorts of hate
Please try to keep in mind that Cryptic, PWE, (who are still newly ~merged), are trying to work together to offer something different for all our tastes no matter how many times each of us has sat at the table. Somewhere in the back of my head i can hear "Ya can't make everyone happy"
wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
This is actually an awesome response. Sounds like he liked what he saw, but the launch characters didn't appeal to him. It sounds like, down the road, as Cryptic releases more options, he may be interested in playing.
well, thats perfect.
"new blood" will be crucial to the games longevity.
in today's market, (well, any-days market really,) it would be unrealistic to hold an MMO's release off till ALL the content they ever wanted to develop was in the game.
You pollish quality content and release what you have. The sales from that will hopefully fund new development, and the cycle continues till there are no funds coming in, then close the servers down, and move on.
hopefully that doesn't happen for a long long time, which of course depends on how much cash is flowing in the direction of the parent company.
anyway, I think that the OP is a great 'future customer'. I'd like to see a Druid eventually, however, I'm also gonna be happy to play a Cleric. So the caught me in their opening net. They will get a bunch of us with what they are going to offer. The game is fun, I just hope that those of us that play, will pony up enough cash, to fund more content, that will hopefully bring in people like the OP. who doesn't see anything that interests him right now.
Thanks,
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Most MMO's content and depth are quite sparse for year 1, even year 2 sometimes. Even the most famous around...
This is a CB still. I do feel they are a month away from OB, but who knows when it will be launched.
I do think they are making a huge mistake by using templates instead of classes. Much easier to create templates off a good solidly constructed class. (and who wants 3 fighters etc etc anyways?)
Obviously they are too far committed to scrap this approach completely and rebuild. Although they do have the rule books that are 'made' for a PC game.
Why overthink this ?!? Use the books, WoTC resources and port the actual D&D game. Live up to your title. Isn't all the balancing, feats, power, HP, scaling etc already done for you?
Just whip up some SFX & animations, seems like most of the artwork is completed already.
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papi032Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Sometimes i drift away in a daydream and imagine i was rich. I would make a mmo that would kill the market and no other mmo would be released coz everyone would be playing mine... It is easier than it sounds, and money gets you places. You have piles and piles of mmo games around.. Take the best piece of every one of them and jam it into one mmo, THE mmo...
Now to jump on the paranoid side a bit. I think they are actually able to do this but simply don't want to.. Imagine if you will, a mmo game that has it all, there would be no need for others to be made meaning no money for a lot of folks. Instead, they make a game just for the heck of it, earn some money, when it fails move on, make another one etc.
On topic, i'm going to give this a shot, it has potential.. After all, what do i have to lose? If it doesn't turn out to be what i need from a game, the search continues for another one
.... I think they are actually able to do this but simply don't want to.. Imagine if you will, a mmo game that has it all, there would be no need for others to be made meaning no money for a lot of folks. Instead, they make a game just for the heck of it, earn some money, when it fails move on, make another one etc....
As Craig has pointed out - it used to work but it does not works anymore. This is because of too many MMOs. Check his presentation at europe PAX where he explained it.
Now to succeed, you need an MMO which runs for a long time. So you make quality MMO and build a loyal community.
I found the atmosphere and combat very engaging. However, it would be nice to make my character a bit more unique. Perhaps a subclass type of approach.
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yogurtaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 18Arc User
edited March 2013
I find this discussion about not having ability to create unique characters very amusing.
Reality check: There are no unique characters in MMOs. Why? Too many people, paired with min-max mentality supported by min-max websites.
It seems that OP and others desire something that TESO is announcing: every armor and every weapon is available to every class. We'll see how that works out, but don't expect to be tanking on your wizard character if it's proven that tanky guardian character can do it easier and better.
Other games such as GW2 offer more customization choice? Maybe. But unless you want to play super-casual, you will be using cookie cutter builds and weapon choices.
My point being. It seems that NWO already povides you with cookie cutter builds per class and saves you from browsing min-max sites to be competitive. It's not to everybody's liking, but it's a valid design decision.
I recommend visiting the class build forums. People are already coming up with creative ways to make their characters stand out. A friend of mine made a rogue tank.
Even in the earliest adventures I found a myriad of off-the-beaten path rewards for the diligent explorer, but Cryptic's focus has obviously been to give us a compelling combat system with which to build our own adventures around via the Foundry.
I submit that if you can't find a way to make your character unique, this isn't a problem with the class design, but with your inability to creatively adapt to a new system. I for one have had a lot of fun theorycrafting alternate builds for my characters.
However I've come to realize that the majority of these threads are barely worth responding to, because most of them are simply people who have come here expecting something they are more familiar with. The DnD crowd is by and large a group of older players familiar with old systems, and you know what they say about old dogs learning new tricks.
I wont read the rest of this thread. But I agree so much. While I am levying some critisism against cryptic for a few design-choices. It is hard to feel any empathy for someone who works so heuristically in their judgements.
I think the unique character comments/desires may be able to be addressed with different appearances. If gear had a wider choice of looks maybe people would be content with that. I just want to see some pants on Wizards, and not all of them to have that exact same two finger salute at all times. Maybe a different run animation for them as well. I think a lot might be visual uniqueness.
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lightspeed2k10Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
I finally figured out what was bothering me about this game. I was expecting an MMORPG based on D&D but thats not what they gave us. D&D is all about customization, character AND class wise. Mages use the spells they find/buy/train, clerics pray for the spells they use. Fighters and rogues choose their weapons, every class has a range of weapons and armor types available which makes each character unique.
Instead we get more of an FPS online, you can choose to be sergeant/captain whatever in like an online community of starcraft 3 but any character you choose already has all the options dictated and you have very little to say about what you can do
This is actually an awesome response. Sounds like he liked what he saw, but the launch characters didn't appeal to him. It sounds like, down the road, as Cryptic releases more options, he may be interested in playing.
anyway, I think that the OP is a great 'future customer'. I'd like to see a Druid eventually, however, I'm also gonna be happy to play a Cleric. So the caught me in their opening net. They will get a bunch of us with what they are going to offer. The game is fun, I just hope that those of us that play, will pony up enough cash, to fund more content, that will hopefully bring in people like the OP. who doesn't see anything that interests him right now.
This is what I was saying. There's two people in this whole thread that clearly don't get that, and I already blasted one of them. The other I think I'll let slide because I want to save my righteous indignation for rare occasions as opposed to it becoming the go-to standard.
To elaborate, I think they are off to a great start. But it's missing certain things that, FOR ME, are deal breakers. Cleric is practically painful for me because it's a "SO CLOSE and yet so far..." type situation. But, they could implement Warlord, Warlock, Barbarian, Monk, and Sorcerer somewhere down the road, and I'll give it another look to see if I can get something that, again, feels like 'my character.'
And y'know, the 'game telling me how to play thing'-every game does that to a certain extent. We have to consider willing suspension of disbelief when talking about this idea. I think the game 'tells you' how to play just a little too much, and it disengaged me from the immersion experience in those two hours. It's a reasonable criticism, I think. It's also the kind of thing that, when they have something that makes me go "OOOh, I GOTTA play that!", I'm going to roll my eyes at the rubber baby bumpers and just get on with it.
I've played 3e and 4e for DnD, and both prior NWN games. As a few crafty folks have pointed out, this game carries expectations from those backgrounds. I'm NOT one of those 3e or 2e guys that says everything that's not 'my edition of DnD' is wrong. But there are some things I want to see. Defining the minimum line is tricky, but a good indicator would be that I bought Life on Champions Online. I'm invested in this company, and I like their products. That also means that I'm going to say 'Hey, this could be better / not suck / should be erased from existence' when I think it's appropriate.
I like the start here. I don't think the starting offering as thus far presented is for me, and that 'feels' like a reasonable position.
Next CWB, I think I'll play the Rogue. It's boring and one trick ponyish, but of the remaining "classes", it's closest to how I actually play tabletop. Again, really want to see Warlord, Warlock (Star Pact!), Barbarian, Sorcerer, and Monk. The 'traditional DnD' crowd will be really wanting to see Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Monk, and Sorcerer. I'm ok with there being no spoony bards, though. ;p Unless they're hirelings. Hireling bards that sing about how great you are are the perfect RPing accessory.
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jonsi81Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited March 2013
I usually ain't disappointed in supporting a game as u can maby see by my Hero of the North pack but when everyone is talking about they using 4e something something d&d rules and stuff and testing out this beta has put me very far off of being happy supporting this game. In the first place there is no mention of 4e something in faq or any of the pages except when go look into the forums.
They say d&d rules... and should follow that to the letter not just 1 part otherwise they should say d&d 4e on every page that calls for it.
This game has no character its just the same as wow or those new mmo games that just don't have any life in them. Though alot was missing for UO or EQ1 they had something no other game has had since.
Like difficulty, characters , spells and so on.
What i look for in these games is something i read about in the books these games are based on and many of those books are based on d&d pure and simple not just 1 feature from d&d i want all of it u can put so i can only use 6 spells(ability) for 1 hour but i can choose from my book of spells(ability) for that hour.
If u can max level max gain everything in 1 week then that content is pretty small.
The foundry does interest me but if the rouge only has four ability too choose from then that rogue isn't very special same thing can be said about the other classes and i know there are more too choose from it was a mark on how few ability's there really are.
sorry my bad english or wording
General settings.
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lightspeed2k10Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is what I was saying. There's two people in this whole thread that clearly don't get that, and I already blasted one of them. The other I think I'll let slide because I want to save my righteous indignation for rare occasions as opposed to it becoming the go-to standard.
To elaborate, I think they are off to a great start. But it's missing certain things that, FOR ME, are deal breakers. Cleric is practically painful for me because it's a "SO CLOSE and yet so far..." type situation. But, they could implement Warlord, Warlock, Barbarian, Monk, and Sorcerer somewhere down the road, and I'll give it another look to see if I can get something that, again, feels like 'my character.'
And y'know, the 'game telling me how to play thing'-every game does that to a certain extent. We have to consider willing suspension of disbelief when talking about this idea. I think the game 'tells you' how to play just a little too much, and it disengaged me from the immersion experience in those two hours. It's a reasonable criticism, I think. It's also the kind of thing that, when they have something that makes me go "OOOh, I GOTTA play that!", I'm going to roll my eyes at the rubber baby bumpers and just get on with it.
I've played 3e and 4e for DnD, and both prior NWN games. As a few crafty folks have pointed out, this game carries expectations from those backgrounds. I'm NOT one of those 3e or 2e guys that says everything that's not 'my edition of DnD' is wrong. But there are some things I want to see. Defining the minimum line is tricky, but a good indicator would be that I bought Life on Champions Online. I'm invested in this company, and I like their products. That also means that I'm going to say 'Hey, this could be better / not suck / should be erased from existence' when I think it's appropriate.
I like the start here. I don't think the starting offering as thus far presented is for me, and that 'feels' like a reasonable position.
Next CWB, I think I'll play the Rogue. It's boring and one trick ponyish, but of the remaining "classes", it's closest to how I actually play tabletop. Again, really want to see Warlord, Warlock (Star Pact!), Barbarian, Sorcerer, and Monk. The 'traditional DnD' crowd will be really wanting to see Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Monk, and Sorcerer. I'm ok with there being no spoony bards, though. ;p Unless they're hirelings. Hireling bards that sing about how great you are are the perfect RPing accessory.
I understand what you're saying but I think you belittle the point. Cryptic doesn't tell you how to play a little, you are locked in to the point of this being a FPS with grouping and community. I love Clerics, but you tell me I have to use this armor and not that, I can't choose a mace or weapon type, my spells are locked....I mean a cleric using magic missile? Then I have this one hideous holy symbol to use. My mage can't find and use spells and I have to use the same spells over and over just supposedly more powerful versions. Even WOW is more D&D like then this game. This is more like Duke nuke'm with multiplayer online.
GS: Since this is an official Dungeons & Dragons product, can you explain how the tabletop game's systems will come into play in the game? Will it use a modified version of D&D rules, or will it use rules from the most recent edition of the tabletop game (4th Edition), and if so, in what aspects of the game: combat, saving throws/difficulty classes…?
Jack Emmert: We're working hand in hand with Wizards of the Coast to translate 4th Edition into our game.
As far as translating the mechanics, there are, of course, the time-honored D&D attributes (strength, dexterity, etc.). One of the best things about 4th Edition is that poor little charisma is useful (that's a shout-out to any old gamers like me). You'll also find D&D's character classes, at least the fundamental ones, in the game.
I understand what you're saying but I think you belittle the point. Cryptic doesn't tell you how to play a little, you are locked in to the point of this being a FPS with grouping and community. I love Clerics, but you tell me I have to use this armor and not that, I can't choose a mace or weapon type, my spells are locked....I mean a cleric using magic missile? Then I have this one hideous holy symbol to use. My mage can't find and use spells and I have to use the same spells over and over just supposedly more powerful versions. Even WOW is more D&D like then this game. This is more like Duke nuke'm with multiplayer online.
Actually, I agree that WoW is more DnD like than this. This is an action game (which I appreciate), but at the same time, I wanted there to be a few simple choices early in the game that would bring a lot more flavor to the characters. As you say, you are completely locked into your progression path save for some mechanical tweaks you make in the other screens. This all 'game telling you how to play' type stuff. I can get past a lot of the initial turn off with there *just* being something I really want to play... which, going back to my original post that started these six pages, they did all the boring 'safe' choices. None of their starting choices for character excite me.
To put it another way... If I had a white box with big black letters on it that read 'Stock DnD Adventuring Party,' Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Ranger ARE what would be in it. Those characters are iconicly engrained into DnD, and it's good that they are here. And they've even gone further than that by making the Tough Fighter, the Healer Cleric, the Lock/Traps Rogue, and presumably the Arrow Blitz Ranger. They missed out on the Burn it All Wizard, but 4 out of 5 ain't bad, and moreover, gives us design space for Dragonblood Sorcerers and Scourge Warlocks.
...but see... they didn't do any of the fun/interesting/exotic stuff either.
What Neverwinter is presently is an extremely purified, hyper filtered, distilled version of 4e DnD mixed with an action game. This is cool, but it might be TOO distilled and too clean. Life has messy variety in it, and that's what makes it interesting.
Still. A few new classes actually representing the character archetypes I'm actually a fan of could go a long way to fixing several of my criticisms and diminishing others. I look at a game for fun, and part of fun for me is getting to play 'my character' (re: a character that is and does things that I think are cool) in a deep, well thought out setting. The setting is there. The characters in the story seem like they're there as well. But the player characters, well... they aren't the droids I'm looking for.
Comments
I noticed this as well. It shows attention to detail.
Loved it.
Thank you, sir, for typing what I was too lazy to do. As it stands right now the game will not get a single dollar from me. There is ABSOLUTELY no customization. You are locked in a path chosen by someone and that is it. You level up, get predetermined skills, predetermined armor, predetermined weapon... Done.
Feels like playing a typical linear shooter which requires you to press E to initiate a cut scene after shooting some "bad" guys...
What would i enjoy? Passive skills (feats) and skill modifiers similar to path of exile [TONS of of skills and skill modifiers to choose from], skill selection similar to guild wars [use more than one predetermined weapon/skills], gear selection similar to eve online [wanna use lasers on gallente ships? go nuts!].
ofc we do not live in a perfect world (lol at the website URL) but for the love of the gods, we beg for more customization options!
Agreed, there can be no question that this game does not use D&D mechanics. There have been efforts to place a D&D-like veneer over the UI, but at the core this is still the Cryptic engine.
The problem is, this game carries the Dungeons and Dragons logo, and the name 'Neverwinter'. There have been many D&D games over the decades, and every single one, without exception, has used some version of the D&D rules. The ones set in Neverwinter are particularly well-known, and fans of those games will have very definite expectations that Neverwinter Online will continue in this tradition, and use D&D mechanics.
Furthermore, when 4E was released it was quite common to see comments along the lines of it playing more like an MMO than an RPG. In fact, the general consensus was that the 4e Ruleset would port to a computer game very well, with very little need for modification. So players of the tabletop game with no experience of the previous computer games will also expect this game to use 4E mechanics.
Neither group is going to be fooled by the UI. Both know the D&D mechanics too well.
These two groups will collectively form a significant portion of the potential market for this game. Indeed, both the word 'Neverwinter' and the Dungeons and Dragons logo are being deliberately used as drawcards, capitalising on the popularity of the IP. But these drawcards carry with them expectations based on the long history of games in this IP.
These fans will be expecting this game to use the 4E mechanics. Some will get over the discovery that it doesn't, and enjoy the game for what it is. Some will not, and are going to write angry posts on blogs and diverse forums about it generating negative word of mouth for the game.
If PEW/Cryptic has done anything to manage these expectations, I have not seen it so far. Nowhere have I seen a specific disclaimer that the game is not using D&D mechanics.
Is this a fun game? Looks like it so far. But I would suggest that PWE/Cryptic might want to start making it crystal clear on the main page of this site that they are not using 4E mechanics, so the backlash can be brought forward, managed, and hopefully defused before launch day.
>Everyone winds up using the same cookie cutter spec that minmaxderp.com tells them to
I'm willing to give Cryptic the benefit of the doubt when it comes to them being genuine about receiving feedback. I believe they want to create a fun, enjoyable, fast paced, free to play game. Those of us who like it, will reward them by paying for extras. Those who don't wont, and their feedback will help Cryptic in determining what people are willing/not willing to pay for.
I actually like the idea of having less action bars and more skills. Than the choices matter more and every character will be more unique. It will also open up more builds instead of one cookie cutter build that does it all. I much prefer the guild wars/secret world approach to action bars and skills than the world of warcraft approach with 40+ skills on the action bar. In the end, you only use about 5 TOPS in most MMOs.
The achievement system was a let down, the ui was hard to navigate and could use some more graphics, the achievements themselves could also improve, take a look at pw's core connect or the world of warcraft implemention(Just don't have them rewarding anything but cosmetic/vanity stuff).
I'd also like that the stat rolls(the dices at the character creation) matter more, Imo in the end having +1 or +2 constitution didn't change that much.
I'd also see some more deity choices(evil ones), and make them count. For now they don't do much, at least they could do something, cosmetic or whatever.
The combat system was good though, I liked that you couldn't run around and hit everything while running, gave the attacks more weight and it wasn't that hard to dodge attacks with the shift movement system. The world looked great but kinda instanced, but that's fine, nothing game breaking.
Now I just want to see the profession system, I hope it's actually useful to some point (more like star wars galaxies than world of warcraft).
Its a shame because the combat is RLY GOOD and the enviroment too but i think thats all.... No character costumization at all, no weapon/armor choice, no decent feat (just a skill tree), skills are a big joke, deities dont do nothing, no background bonus, and i can go on all night saying what bad about the game.... the only thing the game have to do with D&D is the IP.. nothing more!
Dnt get me wrong, i played on beta and i will definly play when the game launch but cryptic have a lot of work to do.
This game have a lot of potential but theres alot of things that must be changed.
Guild wars did it very well. at any given time you would have from 8 (gw1) to 25 (gw2) skills. here you have... what... 3-4?
And yeah i dont like wow's approach either, i think everyone is trying to move away from having a billion of bars covering your screen.
Secondly, I do not understand what you mean by "Than the choices matter more and every character will be more unique."
Skill tree (if it can be called a tree[trees have branches]) is so linear it is painful. it is a straight line going downwards with a "new" skill being unlocked every level. Therefore the only difference between two level 20 wizards/rogues/tanks/etc is the different combination of 4 skills they use. It is sad.
1. From what I understood you get more abilities later when you pick your paragon tree? is that incorrect? They could also release more skills later, who knows. But I do hope we will have 3x the number of skills that we can use, at least.
2. What I mean is that if you have less action bars, and more skills to choose between, you'll see characters that are more unique. For example, instead of having one character with the same skill sets we could have 5-8 different builds that are similar good, but with different skill sets. It would just open up more choices.
But like I said, I didn't play that far, I just hope we see at least 3x the number of skills that we have action bars.
About no armor choices. I've seen a lot of topics about that but for the first 20 levels (that I played) I had a couple of different armor types to choose between.. Did anyone actually explore?? there where hidden puzzles and bosses throughout the zones that rewarded armors. I remember finding a neat looking plated/cloth armor for the trickster rogue with enchantment sockets, nothing like that was available from the quest rewards or drops, it was totally different from what I could have at that level.
I believe when he said that there is no armor/weapon customization he was talking about option to use heavy/light/mage armor or wielding single/dual dagers or dual swords... a bow?
after all what stops you from picking up a sword? if the sword is painted red does that mean it can not be used?
*need bachelors degree in engineering to use a computer. otherwise it will not turn on*
Every game needs a suspension of disbelief. Do you really think a fighter couldn't wear a wizard's robes if he wanted to? Or that a Wizard couldn't struggle into the leathers of a rogue? They are game mechanics. Every game has them. This game has weapon restrictions and I don't really have a problem with it. I really don't need twenty different weapon types to make my character feel 'unique'. He is unique. He's mine, after all.
At that stage your faced with 2 basic options, either deal with it & roll with the punches or move on.
I can easily see several clear distinctions of players coming together for this MMO. Soon these forums will be filled with all sorts of hate
Please try to keep in mind that Cryptic, PWE, (who are still newly ~merged), are trying to work together to offer something different for all our tastes no matter how many times each of us has sat at the table. Somewhere in the back of my head i can hear "Ya can't make everyone happy"
discussing & often complaining about the imaginary.
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well, thats perfect.
"new blood" will be crucial to the games longevity.
in today's market, (well, any-days market really,) it would be unrealistic to hold an MMO's release off till ALL the content they ever wanted to develop was in the game.
You pollish quality content and release what you have. The sales from that will hopefully fund new development, and the cycle continues till there are no funds coming in, then close the servers down, and move on.
hopefully that doesn't happen for a long long time, which of course depends on how much cash is flowing in the direction of the parent company.
anyway, I think that the OP is a great 'future customer'. I'd like to see a Druid eventually, however, I'm also gonna be happy to play a Cleric. So the caught me in their opening net. They will get a bunch of us with what they are going to offer. The game is fun, I just hope that those of us that play, will pony up enough cash, to fund more content, that will hopefully bring in people like the OP. who doesn't see anything that interests him right now.
zWolf / Wesgar
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This is a CB still. I do feel they are a month away from OB, but who knows when it will be launched.
I do think they are making a huge mistake by using templates instead of classes. Much easier to create templates off a good solidly constructed class. (and who wants 3 fighters etc etc anyways?)
Obviously they are too far committed to scrap this approach completely and rebuild. Although they do have the rule books that are 'made' for a PC game.
Why overthink this ?!? Use the books, WoTC resources and port the actual D&D game. Live up to your title. Isn't all the balancing, feats, power, HP, scaling etc already done for you?
Just whip up some SFX & animations, seems like most of the artwork is completed already.
Now to jump on the paranoid side a bit. I think they are actually able to do this but simply don't want to.. Imagine if you will, a mmo game that has it all, there would be no need for others to be made meaning no money for a lot of folks. Instead, they make a game just for the heck of it, earn some money, when it fails move on, make another one etc.
On topic, i'm going to give this a shot, it has potential.. After all, what do i have to lose? If it doesn't turn out to be what i need from a game, the search continues for another one
As Craig has pointed out - it used to work but it does not works anymore. This is because of too many MMOs. Check his presentation at europe PAX where he explained it.
Now to succeed, you need an MMO which runs for a long time. So you make quality MMO and build a loyal community.
Reality check: There are no unique characters in MMOs. Why? Too many people, paired with min-max mentality supported by min-max websites.
It seems that OP and others desire something that TESO is announcing: every armor and every weapon is available to every class. We'll see how that works out, but don't expect to be tanking on your wizard character if it's proven that tanky guardian character can do it easier and better.
Other games such as GW2 offer more customization choice? Maybe. But unless you want to play super-casual, you will be using cookie cutter builds and weapon choices.
My point being. It seems that NWO already povides you with cookie cutter builds per class and saves you from browsing min-max sites to be competitive. It's not to everybody's liking, but it's a valid design decision.
Sorry for long post.
I wont read the rest of this thread. But I agree so much. While I am levying some critisism against cryptic for a few design-choices. It is hard to feel any empathy for someone who works so heuristically in their judgements.
Instead we get more of an FPS online, you can choose to be sergeant/captain whatever in like an online community of starcraft 3 but any character you choose already has all the options dictated and you have very little to say about what you can do
This is what I was saying. There's two people in this whole thread that clearly don't get that, and I already blasted one of them. The other I think I'll let slide because I want to save my righteous indignation for rare occasions as opposed to it becoming the go-to standard.
To elaborate, I think they are off to a great start. But it's missing certain things that, FOR ME, are deal breakers. Cleric is practically painful for me because it's a "SO CLOSE and yet so far..." type situation. But, they could implement Warlord, Warlock, Barbarian, Monk, and Sorcerer somewhere down the road, and I'll give it another look to see if I can get something that, again, feels like 'my character.'
And y'know, the 'game telling me how to play thing'-every game does that to a certain extent. We have to consider willing suspension of disbelief when talking about this idea. I think the game 'tells you' how to play just a little too much, and it disengaged me from the immersion experience in those two hours. It's a reasonable criticism, I think. It's also the kind of thing that, when they have something that makes me go "OOOh, I GOTTA play that!", I'm going to roll my eyes at the rubber baby bumpers and just get on with it.
I've played 3e and 4e for DnD, and both prior NWN games. As a few crafty folks have pointed out, this game carries expectations from those backgrounds. I'm NOT one of those 3e or 2e guys that says everything that's not 'my edition of DnD' is wrong. But there are some things I want to see. Defining the minimum line is tricky, but a good indicator would be that I bought Life on Champions Online. I'm invested in this company, and I like their products. That also means that I'm going to say 'Hey, this could be better / not suck / should be erased from existence' when I think it's appropriate.
I like the start here. I don't think the starting offering as thus far presented is for me, and that 'feels' like a reasonable position.
Next CWB, I think I'll play the Rogue. It's boring and one trick ponyish, but of the remaining "classes", it's closest to how I actually play tabletop. Again, really want to see Warlord, Warlock (Star Pact!), Barbarian, Sorcerer, and Monk. The 'traditional DnD' crowd will be really wanting to see Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Paladin, Monk, and Sorcerer. I'm ok with there being no spoony bards, though. ;p Unless they're hirelings. Hireling bards that sing about how great you are are the perfect RPing accessory.
They say d&d rules... and should follow that to the letter not just 1 part otherwise they should say d&d 4e on every page that calls for it.
This game has no character its just the same as wow or those new mmo games that just don't have any life in them. Though alot was missing for UO or EQ1 they had something no other game has had since.
Like difficulty, characters , spells and so on.
What i look for in these games is something i read about in the books these games are based on and many of those books are based on d&d pure and simple not just 1 feature from d&d i want all of it u can put so i can only use 6 spells(ability) for 1 hour but i can choose from my book of spells(ability) for that hour.
If u can max level max gain everything in 1 week then that content is pretty small.
The foundry does interest me but if the rouge only has four ability too choose from then that rogue isn't very special same thing can be said about the other classes and i know there are more too choose from it was a mark on how few ability's there really are.
sorry my bad english or wording
I understand what you're saying but I think you belittle the point. Cryptic doesn't tell you how to play a little, you are locked in to the point of this being a FPS with grouping and community. I love Clerics, but you tell me I have to use this armor and not that, I can't choose a mace or weapon type, my spells are locked....I mean a cleric using magic missile? Then I have this one hideous holy symbol to use. My mage can't find and use spells and I have to use the same spells over and over just supposedly more powerful versions. Even WOW is more D&D like then this game. This is more like Duke nuke'm with multiplayer online.
http://www.gamespot.com/neverwinter/previews/neverwinter-exclusive-qanda-first-details-on-cryptics-new-dungeons-and-dragons-game-6274162/?tag=topslot%3Bthumb%3B1
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Actually, I agree that WoW is more DnD like than this. This is an action game (which I appreciate), but at the same time, I wanted there to be a few simple choices early in the game that would bring a lot more flavor to the characters. As you say, you are completely locked into your progression path save for some mechanical tweaks you make in the other screens. This all 'game telling you how to play' type stuff. I can get past a lot of the initial turn off with there *just* being something I really want to play... which, going back to my original post that started these six pages, they did all the boring 'safe' choices. None of their starting choices for character excite me.
To put it another way... If I had a white box with big black letters on it that read 'Stock DnD Adventuring Party,' Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Ranger ARE what would be in it. Those characters are iconicly engrained into DnD, and it's good that they are here. And they've even gone further than that by making the Tough Fighter, the Healer Cleric, the Lock/Traps Rogue, and presumably the Arrow Blitz Ranger. They missed out on the Burn it All Wizard, but 4 out of 5 ain't bad, and moreover, gives us design space for Dragonblood Sorcerers and Scourge Warlocks.
...but see... they didn't do any of the fun/interesting/exotic stuff either.
What Neverwinter is presently is an extremely purified, hyper filtered, distilled version of 4e DnD mixed with an action game. This is cool, but it might be TOO distilled and too clean. Life has messy variety in it, and that's what makes it interesting.
Still. A few new classes actually representing the character archetypes I'm actually a fan of could go a long way to fixing several of my criticisms and diminishing others. I look at a game for fun, and part of fun for me is getting to play 'my character' (re: a character that is and does things that I think are cool) in a deep, well thought out setting. The setting is there. The characters in the story seem like they're there as well. But the player characters, well... they aren't the droids I'm looking for.