maleiochMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited March 2013
As someone who played and created content for NWN and NWN2 I can say that I do like this game so far with a couple reservations.
#1- I'd like to see the foundry and just what can be done with it.
#2- My PC (Player Character) is the most important thing to me. That being said, I felt like the environment was the nicest looking part of the game. My character was just plain ugly no matter how hard I tried to alter his appearance. I hope they polish that up a lot before launch. The wizards looked pretty disappointing too.
In all honestly, this game is more comparable to D3 than anything else, and even D3 didn't hold your hand as much as this game does. Around level 20 I just got completely bored with the game. It's just too simple and mindless. In total i've accrued like 8 buttons (Counting the mouse.) Now GW2 has around twelve unique buttons (not counting water abilities) this might not seem like much but it really is.
Exaserbating the problem is how none of the abilities have any synergy with one another. Using cleave does not directly benefit any of my other abilities. Using throwing knives doesn't make my next melee hit or whatever stronger. Each ability is it's own self contained entity that in no meaningful way interacts with your other abilities.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Oh God this thread could be renamed as the Beta impressions of DD pen and paper roleplayers lol.
I agree that 5 classes at release is not much to start with but it is the minimum if you want to run a 5 player Dungeon with all characters as different Class.
Yes I like Battle Cleric very much and I have also played DD pen and paper though I certainly proudly call myself as a more powergamer then a roleplayer. I did not get to well along either with the hardcore pen and paper crowd in NWN1, but luckily not all players were stubborn hardcore roleplayers.
Anyway from a fresh female(not mine I am male) Beta trier and she is a MMO gamer a more clear review:
Please remember she is female so the first wish of more handsome male characters is understandable.
"
Some impressions so far.....
the bad:
1) cc kind of sucks. They should have different hair for each race. The faces seem kind of meh. Too similar. I like that they had sliders, just wish they pushed it a bit more. Not to mention the fact that male characters are hideous. Why? Why the fugly guys?
2) graphics seem kind of dated compared to other mmos out right now. It's not terrible, but it's not impressive either.
3) very linear questing so far. No alternative starting zones so you start in the same areas over and over again if you roll alts. This will get old fast.
4) VERY, VERY instanced. It kind of reminds me of CoH the way it is. Yes, there are open world areas to run around in but, many of the quests send you into these instanced areas where only you (and your party if grouped) can go. Like I said, very CoH. It also feels like there are more loading screens than even GW2.
5) identify scrolls really suck. I have always hated this kind of mechanic in mmos and it's bad because you need astral diamonds to get the scrolls off vendors. Which means you have to buy them or use invocation for more diamonds (and you can only invoke once an hour). Some scrolls do drop from loot. I wish it was like Tera where you could buy it with in game money at least (not astral diamonds).
6) I recall them making a sort of jab at Tera saying their game will be real true-action combat. I can say this is not the case. It's very similar in style to Tera combat. Spell casting locks you down and you can't move and shoot spells at the same time. It's actually a little worse than Tera because at least Tera's left button mouse ability shoots off so fast it feels almost like you are moving at the same time. The thief could move a bit more than the casters, but doesn't feel as fluid as say a warrior or slayer from Tera. I did like the teleports on the wizard though, those were well done.
7) Feels like a game I wouldn't play much on my own. Think it's more fun partying with another. This is good and bad. Parties can be fun, but I do like solo stuff as well.
8) Like Tera you can't regen health even outside combat. You need to either be healed by someone, eat a potion or find a campfire. It's kind of annoying and can lead to down time.
9) camera kind of sucks. You can't zoom in or out. I wanted to take a nice in-game close up screen shot of my char, but for the life of me I can't get it to zoom. I looked over the options and didn't notice an option for this. If someone knows how, please tell me.
10) No option to log out to character screen
11) I hate the looting. They need AoE loot. (GW2 could use it too)
12) The instancing/sharding with parties is AWFUL. It almost never puts you in the same district as your other party members and you're constantly having to hop districts to try to group up with them. They need a smarter system that puts people in the same shard/district.
the good:
1) I like the skirmishes and the little foundry missions. It's a little bit of a different way to level at least, which is much needed given the very linear leveling. 2) While I said it reminds me of Tera combat that's not a bad thing. I actually do like Tera combat for the most part. Just wanted to point out that I don't feel it does action combat better than Tera so far. 3) Rogue and control wizard are fun so far.
More negatives than positives so far, but I suppose overall it's not a bad game. But it needs a lot of work. It's so heavily instanced you forget it's an mmo at times.
"'
I have read many these kind of reviews. However the key things that really need to be fixed are these: 1. Graphics/performance is certainly not good. Ok it is a free game and I don't expect unrealistic better graphic(in my opinion from youtube videos graphics are ok though not good) but system performance must become better.
Shortly said if you have rather mediocre graphics then performance should be better then this. There is lot of game optimization and I don't mean only bugs and also better performance as frames per second if you have mediocre graphics.
2. You need to use Astral Diamonds for ressurect and ID srolls. On top of that Cleric does not have any Ressurect spells.
Those 1 and 2 are the biggest concerns in my book. There is much that is good though and generally I rate Neverwinter as 8.0/10 very good currently but please better system performance. I don't mind that it is much instanced/linear so be it, but system performance must become better if graphics are a bit mediocre.
I didn't think there was anything especially wrong with the graphics, though I'd point out that I actually LIKE the idea of 'racially' themed equipment that is in 4e. I didn't play long enough to figure out if the game had racially themed equipment overall or not... but I'd guess no (easier/cheaper to implement). I had some minor issues with the lack of some customization options-horns on Tieflings are a pretty big offender, but we'll see.
I suppose the reason I don't feel there's anything wrong with the graphics is that I've been less than impressed with Tera and GW2's style. Both games had very technically savvy... but boring characters. I still say GW2 has THE WORST website promos I have EVER seen for any game since the internet was a THING. Those vids are BAD.
But I'm with her on the faces. The guys just... not many options there.
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l1zardo1Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Speaking of websites .... China's NW site blows this one away
Thanks for the feedback, everyone. This kind of feedback is super helpful!
Not to spit in your face er anything, but I highly doubt anything will change. You guys can have fun with my 60 bucks I guess. I'll come back in 2 years when the game is 'decent'.
Actually, I agree that WoW is more DnD like than this. This is an action game (which I appreciate), but at the same time, I wanted there to be a few simple choices early in the game that would bring a lot more flavor to the characters. As you say, you are completely locked into your progression path save for some mechanical tweaks you make in the other screens. This all 'game telling you how to play' type stuff. I can get past a lot of the initial turn off with there *just* being something I really want to play... which, going back to my original post that started these six pages, they did all the boring 'safe' choices. None of their starting choices for character excite me.
To put it another way... If I had a white box with big black letters on it that read 'Stock DnD Adventuring Party,' Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Ranger ARE what would be in it. Those characters are iconicly engrained into DnD, and it's good that they are here. And they've even gone further than that by making the Tough Fighter, the Healer Cleric, the Lock/Traps Rogue, and presumably the Arrow Blitz Ranger. They missed out on the Burn it All Wizard, but 4 out of 5 ain't bad, and moreover, gives us design space for Dragonblood Sorcerers and Scourge Warlocks.
...but see... they didn't do any of the fun/interesting/exotic stuff either.
What Neverwinter is presently is an extremely purified, hyper filtered, distilled version of 4e DnD mixed with an action game. This is cool, but it might be TOO distilled and too clean. Life has messy variety in it, and that's what makes it interesting.
Still. A few new classes actually representing the character archetypes I'm actually a fan of could go a long way to fixing several of my criticisms and diminishing others. I look at a game for fun, and part of fun for me is getting to play 'my character' (re: a character that is and does things that I think are cool) in a deep, well thought out setting. The setting is there. The characters in the story seem like they're there as well. But the player characters, well... they aren't the droids I'm looking for.
Well without the customization this is not a D&D game. If you want to make Starcraft 3/duke nuke'm, lock the player into a cookie cutter mold kind of game you should not call it an MMORPG, you're talking more of a FPS so MMOFPS? So, folks who like games that come from like call of duty and that type of game love this. But folks who come from like EQ2/LOTR/Istaria maybe a little luke warm to not liking this.
I am always one to have some more options in a game, from customization of appearances to bazaar weapon configurations and crazy builds. But guess what? All that stuff will not please the masses. Seriously it won't. In a world of Min / Max obsessions and websites that dedicate themselves to such things, 90% of people will just go for the most powerful abilties and never use anything else anyways. Most people are powergamers and just gotta rush to the finish line.
I run a D&D group to this day. I am not a player of D&D due to the fact that my group doesn't even have the desire to attempt to DM. They feel like they can't create a story that is diverse and they are just not into running a campaign, they would rather play in one. So for years I have been the guy running the show and I have learned ALOT about all the different types of players out there. I have run a 3 man campaign and also a 9 man in my long DMing career.
All that aside, I am telling you that not everybody wants what YOU want out of a game. This is not directed at the OP or anyone in general. I actually mean that towards my own opinion as well. People need to be open minded when it comes to anything that is related to D&D. You need to realize who is actually helping build this game, they are veterans of the D&D world, some are writers, others are world creators, all of them have the passion to try and bring D&D to the MMO world and make it as enjoyable as possible.
It is one thing to want to bring new ideas to the game, but for anybody to say "WoW is more D&D than this game" come on. If that is your attitude then go play Kung Fu Panda and leave us out of it. Constructive critcism is one thing, but the level of enititlement that comes from people about a totally free game is truly astounding. By looking through this entire thread I honestly hope that a few of you aren't over the age of 12. At least then some of the comments make sense, since it is just a lack of knowledge and not plain ignorance.
Neverwinter is going to be a very fun game for me and my group of friends, it could use a few tweaks of course, but to tear the game apart completly just means that NWO is probably not for you. Which is too bad, because I know a heck of alot of people are going to have a blast playing this great title.
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feiyhdMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited March 2013
This game is great technically as OP said, All it needs is some extra character customization.. People play MMO's to stand out, Not just in appearance but in other things, we need to make choices with characters or this isn't even close to an MMO*RPG*.
May aswell be call of duty with swords and spells at this point to me, about the same level of customization.
I got to level 22 in beta with a cleric BTW for those wondering
How do we know that characters don't start to stand out at max level. I bet they will for sure. People that complete the hardest content at level 60 will probably have the gear to represent it. Everything is assumption at this point, but I don't think worrying about how characters look from levels 1 - 30 is that important. To me it is a wait and see approach as opposed to pure speculation, which lets face it, is all most people have to go from. My hopes remain high that this game will stand out above most of the other MMO games I have played in the past.
I am always one to have some more options in a game, from customization of appearances to bazaar weapon configurations and crazy builds. But guess what? All that stuff will not please the masses. Seriously it won't. In a world of Min / Max obsessions and websites that dedicate themselves to such things, 90% of people will just go for the most powerful abilties and never use anything else anyways. Most people are powergamers and just gotta rush to the finish line.
May I ask where you are pulling the 'most' from? Because I am pretty sure most players are the casual ones and the hardcore min/maxers are the minority.
Well that is interesting for sure, but I remain firm on what I said about hardcore gamers. Of course I have no data to back the 90% claim and it was an exaggeration to say the least. I look forward to what the future of Neverwinter is and I am not dwelling on only the information that we have at hand. There was alot of things that were intentionally left out of the Beta weekends so far and that only makes sense.
With so many people complaining about what this game isn't, they don't even fully know what it will become yet. But that is the nature of the internet generation, scream bloody murder first and get the facts later.
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lightspeed2k10Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well that is interesting for sure, but I remain firm on what I said about hardcore gamers. Of course I have no data to back the 90% claim and it was an exaggeration to say the least. I look forward to what the future of Neverwinter is and I am not dwelling on only the information that we have at hand. There was alot of things that were intentionally left out of the Beta weekends so far and that only makes sense.
With so many people complaining about what this game isn't, they don't even fully know what it will become yet. But that is the nature of the internet generation, scream bloody murder first and get the facts later.
Well it's just not true. Hardcore gamers are the minority. But the point is moot, most people want to be able to have a say in their character customization and development, especially hardcore gamers.
Min/maxers most definitely want a say, thats what makes them min/maxers.
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papi032Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
There has been disscussion in another thread about the stats. You don't even get too see what your initial stats are, like crit dmg/chance, etc.. And the main stats like dex/charisma/str and so on can be totally randomed and i don't see them mattering THUS FAR. Aswell as stats on gear like movement and lifesteal and similar. They appear useless and need too much stacking to be even considered THUS FAR. I'm still going to play the game because i enjoyed it, all the issues aside, it has a lot of potential and obviously people who are willing to work on it.
I can say as one of those old time gamers they did the lore right. I'll hol off comment on mechanbics and build here as there was plenty of feedback detailing what did and didn't work without me echoing.
Did you go into your forum control panel and activate your title?
I have to disagree. Where your character is from and what God you choose means nothing. I realize they say this on that very screen but it does not reflect the lore as well. I choose the harpers because I was a Half-Orc Wizard. I figured Luruar made the most sense. I came there to make a new start and the harpers took me in because of my magic and I was a good character. I then choose Sune because of my High Charisma and everything seemed to blend in well. I get in the game and none of these choices matter. When I helped the harpers I was not even treated like I knew who they were let alone treated like a member. I know voice acting makes it difficult to add in or change aspects of a game, however; by the time I got to the mid-level areas and up not ever paragraph was voiced. So adding in more un-voiced script would not harm the game.
So I am not so sure you can say the game does the lore well when a good deal of it is then ignored for out the entirety of the game.
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razorlanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 26Arc User
edited March 2013
Just because the min/max nerds only use very specific abilities and gear sets doesn't mean they don't like having the variety anyhow. My husband is a min/max nerd (his terminology), and he does, sometimes, like to switch things up. He loves it when he beats the other min/max nerds at their own game by out-damaging them with abilities or gear that they insist is no good. (Yes, I am *whisper it* female.) As far as that other stuff goes, I wouldn't go so far as to say that the game is no good. I stand by my earlier statement that it could use a bit of tweaking, however. A lot of what people are complaining about could be fixed by a few extra abilities, a few extra slots to hotkey them in, and a zoom feature that works outside of the vanity mode. Of course, it would be nice to have better male faces (especially the elves - they are pretty ugly for elves as they stand). It would also be nice if distance rangers were also currently in game. I'm sure they will eventually get around to that, though. There are several mmos I could name who eventually added alternate appearances, although the wait for that could get a bit painful. As for classes, many mmos that turn out expansions eventually add either new races or new classes. So as far as those go, I'm sure we will get more, eventually.
May I ask where you are pulling the 'most' from? Because I am pretty sure most players are the casual ones and the hardcore min/maxers are the minority.
In DDO Min/Max is sadly the norm. A "good" bard for example is 8 str, 8 dex, 18 con, 8 int 8 wis 18 char. You should never melee, and stack hp/sp. You are to be a buff bot, CC, while keeping the healers with full SP and resing with scrolls. DDO does let you make other builds that can work really well, most refuse to try them, or deny they work, thus the norm. WoW and EQ II force you to Min/Max as does LotRO, with casters stacking Int type stats for example will also increase their melee capabilities. A good example is Lore-Master will melee better with Will now versus before with Might. I was pleased to see the stats the way they were over all in Beta II (minus the confusion of the 15 char Half-Orc) but then not surprised to see how little stats affected anything. 5% is not bad, but it is does not lend itself to a great impact. And if a 15 yields 5% we will need a 60 in a stat to see 20% based on these numbers, or items will continue to directly affect the hard stats like crit, healing, thus making your stats as trivial as your God and your home city/town.
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lightspeed2k10Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
In DDO Min/Max is sadly the norm. A "good" bard for example is 8 str, 8 dex, 18 con, 8 int 8 wis 18 char. You should never melee, and stack hp/sp. You are to be a buff bot, CC, while keeping the healers with full SP and resing with scrolls. DDO does let you make other builds that can work really well, most refuse to try them, or deny they work, thus the norm. WoW and EQ II force you to Min/Max as does LotRO, with casters stacking Int type stats for example will also increase their melee capabilities. A good example is Lore-Master will melee better with Will now versus before with Might. I was pleased to see the stats the way they were over all in Beta II (minus the confusion of the 15 char Half-Orc) but then not surprised to see how little stats affected anything. 5% is not bad, but it is does not lend itself to a great impact. And if a 15 yields 5% we will need a 60 in a stat to see 20% based on these numbers, or items will continue to directly affect the hard stats like crit, healing, thus making your stats as trivial as your God and your home city/town.
That was one of the reasons I was so excited about this game being based off D&D. Stats figure into it but its not the end all be all they are in other games. D&D was very "customized" friendly, you had to remain within certain boundaries like weapon types useable and all but there were plenty of options to choose from in those boundaries. min/Maxing did have an affect on your character but not so devastating that if you didn't have a 18 strength it didn't make your fighter useless.
I am always one to have some more options in a game, from customization of appearances to bazaar weapon configurations and crazy builds. But guess what? All that stuff will not please the masses. Seriously it won't. In a world of Min / Max obsessions and websites that dedicate themselves to such things, 90% of people will just go for the most powerful abilties and never use anything else anyways. Most people are powergamers and just gotta rush to the finish line.
I run a D&D group to this day. I am not a player of D&D due to the fact that my group doesn't even have the desire to attempt to DM. They feel like they can't create a story that is diverse and they are just not into running a campaign, they would rather play in one. So for years I have been the guy running the show and I have learned ALOT about all the different types of players out there. I have run a 3 man campaign and also a 9 man in my long DMing career.
All that aside, I am telling you that not everybody wants what YOU want out of a game.
YAY WALL OF TEXT! *needs to post shorter posts...* There's something at the bottom that isn't directed at THIS guy, FYI.
Couple things..
First off, if you're going to throw the DM card out there, I spent High School as an online Rifts GM, for precisely the reasons you outline there-no one else would put on their big boy pants and run the game. Well, not no one as I did get to play some pick ups, but for the most part, it was decidedly casual gaming in the dedicated tabletop RP crowd. Kind've a strange thing really, but I'm a lot more tolerant of min/maxers (as they are EVERYWHERE in Rifts...). I tended to focus on meaningful action, and giving players the opportunity to really play with all their character powers that Rifts offered... and considering the times I had to deal with stuff from Phase World before I knew what it was about, well... Let's just say I'm good at thinking on my toes. ;p
What I don't get is where you and several other people in this game think that the majority of comments in this thread are negative. There's stuff missing I want-this is factual, even if you don't have a Brain Reader 9000. And yes, subjectively, I want these things because they are things that I care for that everyone else may not. So you're right here, but we're coming up on where you went wrong.
You may or may not be aware of this, but relatively very few gamers post on forums. Generally it's considered only hardcore gamers that post in these, and with some quick napkin math and that post from Gamasutra about the spectrum of casual to hardcore, I am a hardcore gamer (specifically hardcore, scored 60). I also might be in the transitional phase since there are things (min/max notably) that drive me nuts. But y'know what? I've left most of the super hardcore stuff at the door. What I'm talking about is as accessible to me in the hardcore spectrum as it is to the teeny bopping girls that play IMVU or Gaia Online - character customization. This IS valuable feedback for the dev team who are making a game that will thrive on micro transactions BECAUSE it is information about what works with what they have and what felt lacking.
Now... I get your post wasn't directed *necessarily* at me, but y'know... the only person you can really speak for is you. I think we'll all have a great time with this game, but *for me* (as I keep harping on this), it's not what I want yet. And that's ok! All I really want is a character that is stylistically something I'd play. The game is great near as I can tell. Concerning the classes they made, I think I FAIRLY stated they chose the most predictable and expected ones they possibly could, which is disappointing. BUT! They have plans to add more classes in. And even if the customization options for the *class* remain minimal in an attempt to idiot proof it all... I feel there's enough roleplaying *opportunity* (re: setting) that we're in a comfortable, close enough area for an interpretation of DnD. To say that it is neither DnD or the prior NWN games is simply accurate-it isn't. But they made the setting come alive, and that counts for a lot.
To everyone else, I noticed a couple points about the lack of RP opportunity within the story lines themselves, and while I'm sure you're all intelligent fellows and just making a few points about the lack of background involvement (notably the Half Orc Harper), I just wanted to pass this little bit along. When I play a *computer* RPG, I selectively edit the story to support my character's motivations. I know quite a bit about how these games are made, and consequently, I know that you can't reasonably add specific story elements just because someone has XY and/or Z in their personal story. They could add some flavor text talky options like we see in WoW from time to time when you talk to a guy, but right now, they're pushing a game out the door.
Also, just taking a second to thank everyone here for keeping this a constructive and good thread. You guys are awesome.
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lightspeed2k10Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited March 2013
Well to avoid the wall of text qouting.
Could you link the hardcore formula? I'm probably considered hardcore but I'd like to check it out.
As to role play online. I would say thats up to you, RP isn't about you and the computer it usually involves a live audience....ie, friends you play with, guildmates, people you socialize with in game. Expecting a computer to RP with you is kind of silly as it only has programmed responses and they can't anticipate that many options and the lines of code would be 7734.
The only reason I bring special attention to Hopeless2's Gamasutra link was because I felt there was something important to consider here, which is that I didn't base my criticisms off of what is/is not hardcore. It isn't DnD, ok. It's not even the previous incarnations of Neverwinter, which were considered faithful, though full of compromise. This game is it's own thing. Technically great, I just want more options. There's a few things leaking through the 'want anything DnD related to be more like DnD' sieve, which is to be expected. By and large though, I think asking for a few more options to make your character just FEEL more like your character isn't the biggest request. It is asking for assets, though.
Something I think the game dev community is a little slow to reacting to is that games have largely been democratized. Blizzard mostly gets this (much to the chagrin of their fanboys), but they still have 'deed' rewards and hold some esteem to those who beat their hardest encounters. EA is firmly investing in the 'pay to win' model, and it's arguably their model as a business (I think I read an EA exec talking about ACTUALLY putting in a 50 cent prompt for more ammo in their FPS games). Cryptic and PWE are much more heavily invested in a 'pay for cool things' model. STO has gotten raked over the coals for pay to win ships, but they really are about 10% different mathematically from the ships you CAN get for free and lots of time.
But pointing out Cryptic's other games there, asking them for more customization to the character seems to be exactly in line with their goals as a studio. It seemed like the natural thing to go 'Hey, this is cool, but it could be better if this was here too.'
I gotta say I take serious issue with one of the generalizations made by your link.
"Hardcore gamers prefer violent/action games." A "hardcore gamer"(god I hate that phrase) is just someone who takes gaming as a serious hobby or passion. We don't call automotive hobbyists "Hardcore drivers". Wait what was my point? OH RIGHT!
This game is using the IP of a niche title like Dungeons and Dragons for brand recognition. As someone pointed out, using that IP responsibly is important. "Hardcore" gamers are probably going to be frustrated by how the game is only slightly reminiscient of the IP it's based on, while "Casual" gamers are probably not going to give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Could have just made your own standard fantasy setting with a gimmicky control scheme and it would not have made a bit of difference for them. So really, who is this game for? Who will it appeal to? There are some people like Ryger sure, but I doubt it's going to be as successful as Cryptic or PWE would like.
I gotta say I take serious issue with one of the generalizations made by your link.
"Hardcore gamers prefer violent/action games." A "hardcore gamer"(god I hate that phrase) is just someone who takes gaming as a serious hobby or passion. We don't call automotive hobbyists "Hardcore drivers". Wait what was my point? OH RIGHT!
Actually, if you kept reading, he goes on to state that 'violent games' is a BS metric, but since most hardcore gamers DO play games with some modicum of violence in them, as opposed to say Farmville, it is still part of the metric. However, it is the least heavily weighted point in the entire thing being worth 1 of 100. Read the whole thing, it's interesting.
BUT, as to the other part of your comment, I'm wondering about that as well a bit. I'm wondering where WotC is in regards to the product that carries their name, and my only reasonable guess is that this is an acceptable break for them. But rather than make speculation after speculation, I'll just hit my point again. I know what I want to see, and it presently is not in NW. It could be down the road, and the game is pretty solid on its own merits. I have concerns that are related to the rubber baby buggy bumpers idiot proofing the game to the point that you can't fail and there is nothing to discover. We'll see I suppose.
To you, the one guy in here who totally misses the point. I don't care that you felt like you had to take a pot shot at me personally at the end of your little comment, but since you did, the least I can do is return what you asked for.
I don't give a **** what's buried in the UI to make one class tanky, or another class casty. I care that the effects are present AND visually apparent. They might have buried some of those things in the UI, sure-but they don't fulfill the VISUAL side of it.
It's about playing 'my character,' and 'my character' should have a different feel about it than yours does. You are already evidently new to the MMO scene, so while you ARE seeing all these seemingly viable, alternative play styles, the game is almost undoubtedly set up to reward people who game the system to do better at what their class is INTENDED to do. Even if it isn't intended to reward people who min/max, Cryptic games generally do anyways. Four classes is not enough variance, particularly with only one member of each role. But I'll go beyond your ignorance and EXPLAIN what I mean since you don't get it.
Let's use Cleric again. We're playing Devout Cleric, because apparently Battle Clerics aren't a thing. That means ALL Clerics are going to EXCLUSIVELY shoot light beams at mobs. Whether you ARE more tanky or more DPSy or more healy is *irrelevant* BECAUSE you and EVERYONE ELSE is shooting light beams. The difference between Battle Cleric and Devout Cleric-the thing I reasonably expected to be in the game was the ability to choose, at level one, between Lance of Faith AND Righteous Brand. It's quite literally two attacks. A ranged attack, and a melee attack. The fact that this one, very simple choice is NOT in the game means that I am going to have to wait for them to release an entire other class before I feel like we're getting closer to 'my character.' The fact that I'm upset about something that has been in DnD since before I ever played it not being represented in at all in a DnD game at all is not unreasonable either. It's unfortunate, but the implications are worse-that the whole GAME is missing core DnD elements.
There's an acceptable gulf between 'my character' and the character I can play in a game. I know about it, I accept it, it's a thing. In something called DnD, I EXPECT that gulf to be considerably narrower. This is not an unreasonable expectation of something attached to the DnD property. Your statement that it is however is unreasonable-you're acting like you can divorce the things that make DnD from DnD and that it's ok.
Now, I feel I said a lot of nice things about their game, and that they were well deserved. But I'm going to call a sham a sham when I see it. Right now, for me, and surely, many other people, NW can be more quickly defined by what it IS NOT than what it IS, and it IS NOT DnD. It's not even as close to DnD as the other Neverwinter games, which is the real punch here. So not only has it failed at being DnD, it's failed at being Neverwinter. THAT is what is damning, THAT is the problem, and THAT is why your talking about other business in other parts of the forum puts your ignorance on display. We're talking about WHAT THEY LET US SEE, not hypothesis happy land.
This, I never thought Id actually point to Allods Online as an example of a game that got it right but the healer/cleric there can be melee ( dps with a mace + some divine magic) , full healer ( support with divine magic) or a comfortable mix of the two.. 3 roles in 1 class, not bad Id say.
Ill be honest here, I am not familiar with actual D&D, Ive never played the tabletop games or the MMO going by the same name. I have however played countless RPGs that in some form or another utilise what D&D stands for and I know this much - you gotta give us customization , if you dont its your loss(devs).
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually, if you kept reading, he goes on to state that 'violent games' is a BS metric, but since most hardcore gamers DO play games with some modicum of violence in them, as opposed to say Farmville, it is still part of the metric. However, it is the least heavily weighted point in the entire thing being worth 1 of 100. Read the whole thing, it's interesting.
I am a hardcore gamer and by that I do NOT mean I am hardcore roleplayer. Roleplaying for fun is ok in my book though. Oh one more thing I do not like Guild Wars 2 because it has no PvE endgame.
Research from another gaming Forum:
Poll: What makes a gamer "casual" or "hardcore" ?
Amount of time playing the game (37 votes [16.82%])
The player's skill at that game (15 votes [6.82%])
How seroius they are about the game (72 votes [32.73%])
How much they know about the game (5 votes [2.27%])
All of the above (75 votes [34.09%])
Other - (please explain) (16 votes [7.27%])
My opinion and this is me! I voted amount of time makes what is hardcore player.
Skill?
When I took driving license we had a test to measure reaction time. A normal has reaction time between 0.5-1.5 second and I did have 0.5 seconds. Also in martial arts back in the days reaction time was useful for defence. Anyway if talk about gaming
Unreal Tournament 2004 is really fast paced Action FPS in there I slaughtered 3 of my friends sometimes in 1 vs 3 situations. The skill does not make me hardcore. I don't think that.
I think voting "How serious they are about the game" is hardcore also. I created an Avatar in Unreal Tournament games that looked like Terminator and used that nickname. Anyway I felt like a cool Terminator when slaughtering players.
However I have never completely lost it so I believe I am in the game: If you believe you are in the game ok then I admit you are hardcore and even a bit insane. I meant this example: Prelude first Part of PvP combat with 2 Guilds who hate each other and big stakes(betting): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_-FyEWBgpY
You may laugh, but sadly in history there are people who have become insane while playing, but of course they are a very small minority.
Finally for your information it has been confirmed 100% sure this game will have Raids as it should be! However there will be no Raids at release(could be released much later like many months or even a year after the release), but I think that is ok since this game is free and not even WOW had raids at the release. I also like PvP, but I am pretty much in the dark about that as the rest of you.
Of course I think many low-medium level DD adventures are nice and one thing that I loved about the NWN community was the skilled creators and they deserve praise and I do respect skillful creators. FOUNDRY is also excellent to have in Neverwinter.
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ancillaryMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 11Arc User
Ill be honest here, I am not familiar with actual D&D, Ive never played the tabletop games or the MMO going by the same name. I have however played countless RPGs that in some form or another utilise what D&D stands for and I know this much - you gotta give us customization , if you dont its your loss(devs).
They will, but Cryptic is honestly being very smart with how they're designing things, here. Let's break this down.
Balance in any kind of game becomes exponentially more difficult the larger the number of options that are presented. Most D&D games are actually a perfect example of this, with power (defined in terms of ability to actually triumph in combat) often swinging wildly between characters depending on certain esoteric feat choices and combinations with other pieces of equipment/feats/class features. In a tabletop game, such as 4E, this isn't so bad. 4E, at the very least, has a comfortable baseline that every class works around. Moreover, it's a situation mitigated by the presence of a DM, who can allow/disallow certain combinations (banning Frostcheese, for example) and can dynamically adjust their encounters in order to compensate for group strengths/weaknesses.
In an MMO, however, things change. This is because you are no longer in a small group of friends with a (hopefully!) benevolent DM watching over you. You are now in direct "competition" with thousands of other people, arbitrated by a cold, unthinking machine that is programmed to obey very specific parameters and adjust content in only minor ways. This is a social game, and what most people prefer to do in a social game like an MMO is to try and accomplish tasks - typically with the most efficiency possible - while coordinating with other players. This necessarily leads to others scrutinizing the builds and playstyles of others, and while we might all say, "Oh, that shouldn't matter," it self-evidently does, given the enormous pressure put on development teams to compensate for "theorycrafting" in previous MMOs.
Therefore, the best possible thing that you can do in an MMO like this is to limit the amount of customization to a few distinct choices, which is what the powers system does. By keeping the classes in self-contained archetypes (Guardian Fighter uses sword and shield, Devotion Cleric is ranged only, etc.), Cryptic is able to make certain predictions about the general playstyle of classes; how all of the powers interact with those playstyles; and what adjustments might need to be made to make certain powers more/less appealing. If the Cleric had both a melee and ranged at-will, this changes things significantly, because you now need to ask questions like:
a) What tools does the Cleric need to survive effectively in melee combat?
b) How will the Cleric stay in melee combat? What powers do they need for that?
c) How will we balance range vs. melee in terms of damage to not make one favor the other?
...and so on. The end result is that it makes the class considerably harder to balance, because you're now balancing 20 skills against eachother versus 10 or so against eachother. Again, every new power needs to be balanced against the other powers a class has - more is not necessarily better.
The current customization provides you with the ability to effectively decide how your character will play. A Devotion Cleric plays differently depending on what Encounter powers they take along, and depending on what Feats they've selected, which means that the customization currently in is effective. The fact that it's a limited amount of customization is also good, because it means that there can be a focus on ensuring that all of the Cleric's powers are good, rather than some of them being good, because the class is far more comprehensible to take in as a whole and, thus, much easier to balance.
Beyond this, there's also the issue of player retention. Parceling out the classes in this manner also makes it much easier to keep people playing, because there's a new class always on the horizon that people will want to try out. This also meshes in with the microtransaction model by promoting the purchase of EXP Boosters, etc. to give you a "leg up" on trying out the newest class. Importantly, though, there's no monetary cost for future classes, which ensures that the playing field is even in terms of power; no one is excluded from Class X. This also helps somewhat with class balance, since it ensures that there's no "golden wheel" that keeps getting the grease solely because it is the newest, and therefore most profitable, class.
While I'm definitely in favor of more classes being released - and more characters that I can create - the limited customization in this game was put in for very specific design reasons that are, ultimately, intended to improve the player experience.
Right, Ancillary. Believe me, I don't want anything that resembles Vow of Poverty 3e Psyker/Monk builds. That said, laser cleric is also a thing I never wanted.
I think it's fair to say I will never see a DnD *computer game* that properly allows me to make 'my' cleric. There were some minor conditions with the GM to get that character to be effective, notably a SLIGHTLY more generous stat budget. But the other NWN games let me get close enough. From a game design standpoint, they've made things neat, clean... and taken absolutely no risk. The experience is VERY tightly controlled.
There's a lot good about that... and there's a lot bad about that.
But y'know. I've seen more threads saying "Hey, Battle Cleric!" Also, there's several old DnD core classes that were shunted into PhB 2 and 3 for 4e, and since NW seems to be trying to make an homage to DnD, I expect those old core classes will be implemented sooner or later because of how central they are to the DnD 'legend.'
However, just a point here... The dev team at Blizzard that made Diablo 3 decided to make D3 an always online to 'improve player experience.' By any and EVERY realistic metric, that decision did not pan out. It is still the most controversial point in their design, and that says something considering how far removed we are from the release now, as well as all the OTHER issues that have cropped up since then. Limits can be good. Other times, limits just limit people. There's a balance, and... with the classes we have presently, NW's limitations on players are a bit EXPOSED.
Comments
#1- I'd like to see the foundry and just what can be done with it.
#2- My PC (Player Character) is the most important thing to me. That being said, I felt like the environment was the nicest looking part of the game. My character was just plain ugly no matter how hard I tried to alter his appearance. I hope they polish that up a lot before launch. The wizards looked pretty disappointing too.
Exaserbating the problem is how none of the abilities have any synergy with one another. Using cleave does not directly benefit any of my other abilities. Using throwing knives doesn't make my next melee hit or whatever stronger. Each ability is it's own self contained entity that in no meaningful way interacts with your other abilities.
I agree that 5 classes at release is not much to start with but it is the minimum if you want to run a 5 player Dungeon with all characters as different Class.
Yes I like Battle Cleric very much and I have also played DD pen and paper though I certainly proudly call myself as a more powergamer then a roleplayer. I did not get to well along either with the hardcore pen and paper crowd in NWN1, but luckily not all players were stubborn hardcore roleplayers.
Anyway from a fresh female(not mine I am male) Beta trier and she is a MMO gamer a more clear review:
Please remember she is female so the first wish of more handsome male characters is understandable.
"
Some impressions so far.....
the bad:
1) cc kind of sucks. They should have different hair for each race. The faces seem kind of meh. Too similar. I like that they had sliders, just wish they pushed it a bit more. Not to mention the fact that male characters are hideous.
2) graphics seem kind of dated compared to other mmos out right now. It's not terrible, but it's not impressive either.
3) very linear questing so far. No alternative starting zones so you start in the same areas over and over again if you roll alts. This will get old fast.
4) VERY, VERY instanced. It kind of reminds me of CoH the way it is. Yes, there are open world areas to run around in but, many of the quests send you into these instanced areas where only you (and your party if grouped) can go. Like I said, very CoH. It also feels like there are more loading screens than even GW2.
5) identify scrolls really suck. I have always hated this kind of mechanic in mmos and it's bad because you need astral diamonds to get the scrolls off vendors. Which means you have to buy them or use invocation for more diamonds (and you can only invoke once an hour). Some scrolls do drop from loot. I wish it was like Tera where you could buy it with in game money at least (not astral diamonds).
6) I recall them making a sort of jab at Tera saying their game will be real true-action combat. I can say this is not the case. It's very similar in style to Tera combat. Spell casting locks you down and you can't move and shoot spells at the same time. It's actually a little worse than Tera because at least Tera's left button mouse ability shoots off so fast it feels almost like you are moving at the same time. The thief could move a bit more than the casters, but doesn't feel as fluid as say a warrior or slayer from Tera. I did like the teleports on the wizard though, those were well done.
7) Feels like a game I wouldn't play much on my own. Think it's more fun partying with another. This is good and bad. Parties can be fun, but I do like solo stuff as well.
8) Like Tera you can't regen health even outside combat. You need to either be healed by someone, eat a potion or find a campfire. It's kind of annoying and can lead to down time.
9) camera kind of sucks. You can't zoom in or out. I wanted to take a nice in-game close up screen shot of my char, but for the life of me I can't get it to zoom. I looked over the options and didn't notice an option for this. If someone knows how, please tell me.
10) No option to log out to character screen
11) I hate the looting. They need AoE loot. (GW2 could use it too)
12) The instancing/sharding with parties is AWFUL. It almost never puts you in the same district as your other party members and you're constantly having to hop districts to try to group up with them. They need a smarter system that puts people in the same shard/district.
the good:
1) I like the skirmishes and the little foundry missions. It's a little bit of a different way to level at least, which is much needed given the very linear leveling.
2) While I said it reminds me of Tera combat that's not a bad thing. I actually do like Tera combat for the most part. Just wanted to point out that I don't feel it does action combat better than Tera so far.
3) Rogue and control wizard are fun so far.
More negatives than positives so far, but I suppose overall it's not a bad game. But it needs a lot of work. It's so heavily instanced you forget it's an mmo at times.
"'
I have read many these kind of reviews. However the key things that really need to be fixed are these:
1. Graphics/performance is certainly not good. Ok it is a free game and I don't expect unrealistic better graphic(in my opinion from youtube videos graphics are ok though not good) but system performance must become better.
Shortly said if you have rather mediocre graphics then performance should be better then this. There is lot of game optimization and I don't mean only bugs and also better performance as frames per second if you have mediocre graphics.
2. You need to use Astral Diamonds for ressurect and ID srolls. On top of that Cleric does not have any Ressurect spells.
Those 1 and 2 are the biggest concerns in my book. There is much that is good though and generally I rate Neverwinter as 8.0/10 very good currently but please better system performance. I don't mind that it is much instanced/linear so be it, but system performance must become better if graphics are a bit mediocre.
I suppose the reason I don't feel there's anything wrong with the graphics is that I've been less than impressed with Tera and GW2's style. Both games had very technically savvy... but boring characters. I still say GW2 has THE WORST website promos I have EVER seen for any game since the internet was a THING. Those vids are BAD.
But I'm with her on the faces. The guys just... not many options there.
http://nw.wanmei.com/
Thanks for this - very cool!
Not to spit in your face er anything, but I highly doubt anything will change. You guys can have fun with my 60 bucks I guess. I'll come back in 2 years when the game is 'decent'.
Well without the customization this is not a D&D game. If you want to make Starcraft 3/duke nuke'm, lock the player into a cookie cutter mold kind of game you should not call it an MMORPG, you're talking more of a FPS so MMOFPS? So, folks who like games that come from like call of duty and that type of game love this. But folks who come from like EQ2/LOTR/Istaria maybe a little luke warm to not liking this.
I run a D&D group to this day. I am not a player of D&D due to the fact that my group doesn't even have the desire to attempt to DM. They feel like they can't create a story that is diverse and they are just not into running a campaign, they would rather play in one. So for years I have been the guy running the show and I have learned ALOT about all the different types of players out there. I have run a 3 man campaign and also a 9 man in my long DMing career.
All that aside, I am telling you that not everybody wants what YOU want out of a game. This is not directed at the OP or anyone in general. I actually mean that towards my own opinion as well. People need to be open minded when it comes to anything that is related to D&D. You need to realize who is actually helping build this game, they are veterans of the D&D world, some are writers, others are world creators, all of them have the passion to try and bring D&D to the MMO world and make it as enjoyable as possible.
It is one thing to want to bring new ideas to the game, but for anybody to say "WoW is more D&D than this game" come on. If that is your attitude then go play Kung Fu Panda and leave us out of it. Constructive critcism is one thing, but the level of enititlement that comes from people about a totally free game is truly astounding. By looking through this entire thread I honestly hope that a few of you aren't over the age of 12. At least then some of the comments make sense, since it is just a lack of knowledge and not plain ignorance.
Neverwinter is going to be a very fun game for me and my group of friends, it could use a few tweaks of course, but to tear the game apart completly just means that NWO is probably not for you. Which is too bad, because I know a heck of alot of people are going to have a blast playing this great title.
May aswell be call of duty with swords and spells at this point to me, about the same level of customization.
I got to level 22 in beta with a cleric BTW for those wondering
May I ask where you are pulling the 'most' from? Because I am pretty sure most players are the casual ones and the hardcore min/maxers are the minority.
If you're just assuming things, please have a look at this: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131397/from_casual_to_core_a_statistical_.php?print=1
With so many people complaining about what this game isn't, they don't even fully know what it will become yet. But that is the nature of the internet generation, scream bloody murder first and get the facts later.
Well it's just not true. Hardcore gamers are the minority. But the point is moot, most people want to be able to have a say in their character customization and development, especially hardcore gamers.
Min/maxers most definitely want a say, thats what makes them min/maxers.
I have to disagree. Where your character is from and what God you choose means nothing. I realize they say this on that very screen but it does not reflect the lore as well. I choose the harpers because I was a Half-Orc Wizard. I figured Luruar made the most sense. I came there to make a new start and the harpers took me in because of my magic and I was a good character. I then choose Sune because of my High Charisma and everything seemed to blend in well. I get in the game and none of these choices matter. When I helped the harpers I was not even treated like I knew who they were let alone treated like a member. I know voice acting makes it difficult to add in or change aspects of a game, however; by the time I got to the mid-level areas and up not ever paragraph was voiced. So adding in more un-voiced script would not harm the game.
So I am not so sure you can say the game does the lore well when a good deal of it is then ignored for out the entirety of the game.
In DDO Min/Max is sadly the norm. A "good" bard for example is 8 str, 8 dex, 18 con, 8 int 8 wis 18 char. You should never melee, and stack hp/sp. You are to be a buff bot, CC, while keeping the healers with full SP and resing with scrolls. DDO does let you make other builds that can work really well, most refuse to try them, or deny they work, thus the norm. WoW and EQ II force you to Min/Max as does LotRO, with casters stacking Int type stats for example will also increase their melee capabilities. A good example is Lore-Master will melee better with Will now versus before with Might. I was pleased to see the stats the way they were over all in Beta II (minus the confusion of the 15 char Half-Orc) but then not surprised to see how little stats affected anything. 5% is not bad, but it is does not lend itself to a great impact. And if a 15 yields 5% we will need a 60 in a stat to see 20% based on these numbers, or items will continue to directly affect the hard stats like crit, healing, thus making your stats as trivial as your God and your home city/town.
That was one of the reasons I was so excited about this game being based off D&D. Stats figure into it but its not the end all be all they are in other games. D&D was very "customized" friendly, you had to remain within certain boundaries like weapon types useable and all but there were plenty of options to choose from in those boundaries. min/Maxing did have an affect on your character but not so devastating that if you didn't have a 18 strength it didn't make your fighter useless.
YAY WALL OF TEXT! *needs to post shorter posts...* There's something at the bottom that isn't directed at THIS guy, FYI.
Couple things..
First off, if you're going to throw the DM card out there, I spent High School as an online Rifts GM, for precisely the reasons you outline there-no one else would put on their big boy pants and run the game. Well, not no one as I did get to play some pick ups, but for the most part, it was decidedly casual gaming in the dedicated tabletop RP crowd. Kind've a strange thing really, but I'm a lot more tolerant of min/maxers (as they are EVERYWHERE in Rifts...). I tended to focus on meaningful action, and giving players the opportunity to really play with all their character powers that Rifts offered... and considering the times I had to deal with stuff from Phase World before I knew what it was about, well... Let's just say I'm good at thinking on my toes. ;p
What I don't get is where you and several other people in this game think that the majority of comments in this thread are negative. There's stuff missing I want-this is factual, even if you don't have a Brain Reader 9000. And yes, subjectively, I want these things because they are things that I care for that everyone else may not. So you're right here, but we're coming up on where you went wrong.
You may or may not be aware of this, but relatively very few gamers post on forums. Generally it's considered only hardcore gamers that post in these, and with some quick napkin math and that post from Gamasutra about the spectrum of casual to hardcore, I am a hardcore gamer (specifically hardcore, scored 60). I also might be in the transitional phase since there are things (min/max notably) that drive me nuts. But y'know what? I've left most of the super hardcore stuff at the door. What I'm talking about is as accessible to me in the hardcore spectrum as it is to the teeny bopping girls that play IMVU or Gaia Online - character customization. This IS valuable feedback for the dev team who are making a game that will thrive on micro transactions BECAUSE it is information about what works with what they have and what felt lacking.
Now... I get your post wasn't directed *necessarily* at me, but y'know... the only person you can really speak for is you. I think we'll all have a great time with this game, but *for me* (as I keep harping on this), it's not what I want yet. And that's ok! All I really want is a character that is stylistically something I'd play. The game is great near as I can tell. Concerning the classes they made, I think I FAIRLY stated they chose the most predictable and expected ones they possibly could, which is disappointing. BUT! They have plans to add more classes in. And even if the customization options for the *class* remain minimal in an attempt to idiot proof it all... I feel there's enough roleplaying *opportunity* (re: setting) that we're in a comfortable, close enough area for an interpretation of DnD. To say that it is neither DnD or the prior NWN games is simply accurate-it isn't. But they made the setting come alive, and that counts for a lot.
To everyone else, I noticed a couple points about the lack of RP opportunity within the story lines themselves, and while I'm sure you're all intelligent fellows and just making a few points about the lack of background involvement (notably the Half Orc Harper), I just wanted to pass this little bit along. When I play a *computer* RPG, I selectively edit the story to support my character's motivations. I know quite a bit about how these games are made, and consequently, I know that you can't reasonably add specific story elements just because someone has XY and/or Z in their personal story. They could add some flavor text talky options like we see in WoW from time to time when you talk to a guy, but right now, they're pushing a game out the door.
Also, just taking a second to thank everyone here for keeping this a constructive and good thread. You guys are awesome.
Could you link the hardcore formula? I'm probably considered hardcore but I'd like to check it out.
As to role play online. I would say thats up to you, RP isn't about you and the computer it usually involves a live audience....ie, friends you play with, guildmates, people you socialize with in game. Expecting a computer to RP with you is kind of silly as it only has programmed responses and they can't anticipate that many options and the lines of code would be 7734.
The only reason I bring special attention to Hopeless2's Gamasutra link was because I felt there was something important to consider here, which is that I didn't base my criticisms off of what is/is not hardcore. It isn't DnD, ok. It's not even the previous incarnations of Neverwinter, which were considered faithful, though full of compromise. This game is it's own thing. Technically great, I just want more options. There's a few things leaking through the 'want anything DnD related to be more like DnD' sieve, which is to be expected. By and large though, I think asking for a few more options to make your character just FEEL more like your character isn't the biggest request. It is asking for assets, though.
Something I think the game dev community is a little slow to reacting to is that games have largely been democratized. Blizzard mostly gets this (much to the chagrin of their fanboys), but they still have 'deed' rewards and hold some esteem to those who beat their hardest encounters. EA is firmly investing in the 'pay to win' model, and it's arguably their model as a business (I think I read an EA exec talking about ACTUALLY putting in a 50 cent prompt for more ammo in their FPS games). Cryptic and PWE are much more heavily invested in a 'pay for cool things' model. STO has gotten raked over the coals for pay to win ships, but they really are about 10% different mathematically from the ships you CAN get for free and lots of time.
But pointing out Cryptic's other games there, asking them for more customization to the character seems to be exactly in line with their goals as a studio. It seemed like the natural thing to go 'Hey, this is cool, but it could be better if this was here too.'
I gotta say I take serious issue with one of the generalizations made by your link.
"Hardcore gamers prefer violent/action games." A "hardcore gamer"(god I hate that phrase) is just someone who takes gaming as a serious hobby or passion. We don't call automotive hobbyists "Hardcore drivers". Wait what was my point? OH RIGHT!
This game is using the IP of a niche title like Dungeons and Dragons for brand recognition. As someone pointed out, using that IP responsibly is important. "Hardcore" gamers are probably going to be frustrated by how the game is only slightly reminiscient of the IP it's based on, while "Casual" gamers are probably not going to give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Could have just made your own standard fantasy setting with a gimmicky control scheme and it would not have made a bit of difference for them. So really, who is this game for? Who will it appeal to? There are some people like Ryger sure, but I doubt it's going to be as successful as Cryptic or PWE would like.
Actually, if you kept reading, he goes on to state that 'violent games' is a BS metric, but since most hardcore gamers DO play games with some modicum of violence in them, as opposed to say Farmville, it is still part of the metric. However, it is the least heavily weighted point in the entire thing being worth 1 of 100. Read the whole thing, it's interesting.
BUT, as to the other part of your comment, I'm wondering about that as well a bit. I'm wondering where WotC is in regards to the product that carries their name, and my only reasonable guess is that this is an acceptable break for them. But rather than make speculation after speculation, I'll just hit my point again. I know what I want to see, and it presently is not in NW. It could be down the road, and the game is pretty solid on its own merits. I have concerns that are related to the rubber baby buggy bumpers idiot proofing the game to the point that you can't fail and there is nothing to discover. We'll see I suppose.
This, I never thought Id actually point to Allods Online as an example of a game that got it right but the healer/cleric there can be melee ( dps with a mace + some divine magic) , full healer ( support with divine magic) or a comfortable mix of the two.. 3 roles in 1 class, not bad Id say.
Ill be honest here, I am not familiar with actual D&D, Ive never played the tabletop games or the MMO going by the same name. I have however played countless RPGs that in some form or another utilise what D&D stands for and I know this much - you gotta give us customization , if you dont its your loss(devs).
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Research from another gaming Forum:
Poll: What makes a gamer "casual" or "hardcore" ?
Amount of time playing the game (37 votes [16.82%])
The player's skill at that game (15 votes [6.82%])
How seroius they are about the game (72 votes [32.73%])
How much they know about the game (5 votes [2.27%])
All of the above (75 votes [34.09%])
Other - (please explain) (16 votes [7.27%])
My opinion and this is me!
I voted amount of time makes what is hardcore player.
Skill?
When I took driving license we had a test to measure reaction time. A normal has reaction time between 0.5-1.5 second and I did have 0.5 seconds. Also in martial arts back in the days reaction time was useful for defence. Anyway if talk about gaming
Unreal Tournament 2004 is really fast paced Action FPS in there I slaughtered 3 of my friends sometimes in 1 vs 3 situations.
The skill does not make me hardcore. I don't think that.
I think voting "How serious they are about the game" is hardcore also. I created an Avatar in Unreal Tournament games that looked like Terminator and used that nickname. Anyway I felt like a cool Terminator when slaughtering players.
However I have never completely lost it so I believe I am in the game: If you believe you are in the game ok then I admit you are hardcore and even a bit insane. I meant this example:
Prelude first Part of PvP combat with 2 Guilds who hate each other and big stakes(betting):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_-FyEWBgpY
In this episode Felicia Day looses it and believes she is in the game. Yeah that is extreme hardcore:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgK2EaPOfzI&feature=context-shows&list=SL
You may laugh, but sadly in history there are people who have become insane while playing, but of course they are a very small minority.
Finally for your information it has been confirmed 100% sure this game will have Raids as it should be! However there will be no Raids at release(could be released much later like many months or even a year after the release), but I think that is ok since this game is free and not even WOW had raids at the release. I also like PvP, but I am pretty much in the dark about that as the rest of you.
Of course I think many low-medium level DD adventures are nice and one thing that I loved about the NWN community was the skilled creators and they deserve praise and I do respect skillful creators. FOUNDRY is also excellent to have in Neverwinter.
They will, but Cryptic is honestly being very smart with how they're designing things, here. Let's break this down.
Balance in any kind of game becomes exponentially more difficult the larger the number of options that are presented. Most D&D games are actually a perfect example of this, with power (defined in terms of ability to actually triumph in combat) often swinging wildly between characters depending on certain esoteric feat choices and combinations with other pieces of equipment/feats/class features. In a tabletop game, such as 4E, this isn't so bad. 4E, at the very least, has a comfortable baseline that every class works around. Moreover, it's a situation mitigated by the presence of a DM, who can allow/disallow certain combinations (banning Frostcheese, for example) and can dynamically adjust their encounters in order to compensate for group strengths/weaknesses.
In an MMO, however, things change. This is because you are no longer in a small group of friends with a (hopefully!) benevolent DM watching over you. You are now in direct "competition" with thousands of other people, arbitrated by a cold, unthinking machine that is programmed to obey very specific parameters and adjust content in only minor ways. This is a social game, and what most people prefer to do in a social game like an MMO is to try and accomplish tasks - typically with the most efficiency possible - while coordinating with other players. This necessarily leads to others scrutinizing the builds and playstyles of others, and while we might all say, "Oh, that shouldn't matter," it self-evidently does, given the enormous pressure put on development teams to compensate for "theorycrafting" in previous MMOs.
Therefore, the best possible thing that you can do in an MMO like this is to limit the amount of customization to a few distinct choices, which is what the powers system does. By keeping the classes in self-contained archetypes (Guardian Fighter uses sword and shield, Devotion Cleric is ranged only, etc.), Cryptic is able to make certain predictions about the general playstyle of classes; how all of the powers interact with those playstyles; and what adjustments might need to be made to make certain powers more/less appealing. If the Cleric had both a melee and ranged at-will, this changes things significantly, because you now need to ask questions like:
a) What tools does the Cleric need to survive effectively in melee combat?
b) How will the Cleric stay in melee combat? What powers do they need for that?
c) How will we balance range vs. melee in terms of damage to not make one favor the other?
...and so on. The end result is that it makes the class considerably harder to balance, because you're now balancing 20 skills against eachother versus 10 or so against eachother. Again, every new power needs to be balanced against the other powers a class has - more is not necessarily better.
The current customization provides you with the ability to effectively decide how your character will play. A Devotion Cleric plays differently depending on what Encounter powers they take along, and depending on what Feats they've selected, which means that the customization currently in is effective. The fact that it's a limited amount of customization is also good, because it means that there can be a focus on ensuring that all of the Cleric's powers are good, rather than some of them being good, because the class is far more comprehensible to take in as a whole and, thus, much easier to balance.
Beyond this, there's also the issue of player retention. Parceling out the classes in this manner also makes it much easier to keep people playing, because there's a new class always on the horizon that people will want to try out. This also meshes in with the microtransaction model by promoting the purchase of EXP Boosters, etc. to give you a "leg up" on trying out the newest class. Importantly, though, there's no monetary cost for future classes, which ensures that the playing field is even in terms of power; no one is excluded from Class X. This also helps somewhat with class balance, since it ensures that there's no "golden wheel" that keeps getting the grease solely because it is the newest, and therefore most profitable, class.
While I'm definitely in favor of more classes being released - and more characters that I can create - the limited customization in this game was put in for very specific design reasons that are, ultimately, intended to improve the player experience.
I think it's fair to say I will never see a DnD *computer game* that properly allows me to make 'my' cleric. There were some minor conditions with the GM to get that character to be effective, notably a SLIGHTLY more generous stat budget. But the other NWN games let me get close enough. From a game design standpoint, they've made things neat, clean... and taken absolutely no risk. The experience is VERY tightly controlled.
There's a lot good about that... and there's a lot bad about that.
But y'know. I've seen more threads saying "Hey, Battle Cleric!" Also, there's several old DnD core classes that were shunted into PhB 2 and 3 for 4e, and since NW seems to be trying to make an homage to DnD, I expect those old core classes will be implemented sooner or later because of how central they are to the DnD 'legend.'
However, just a point here... The dev team at Blizzard that made Diablo 3 decided to make D3 an always online to 'improve player experience.' By any and EVERY realistic metric, that decision did not pan out. It is still the most controversial point in their design, and that says something considering how far removed we are from the release now, as well as all the OTHER issues that have cropped up since then. Limits can be good. Other times, limits just limit people. There's a balance, and... with the classes we have presently, NW's limitations on players are a bit EXPOSED.