When I think DnD cleric, I think of a dwarf wielding a mace and shield, smashing skeletons to pieces. Not a dwarf holding up a symbol that lets him shoot javelins of light lol.
Its true that there is room for a caster cleric and I do see the logic of their choice but for me I was that classic dwarf cleric with the mace and shield for nearly a decade on and off.
When I saw the cleric vid I was a little choked to be honest. Maybe it will grow on me once I get to play who knows.
If I had the option to drop that laughably humongous over the top holy symbol at the cost to casting abilities and get in there and mix it up a bit when needed then I would feel a little warmer to the devs choice.
But hey ho I am sure that good points will out way any minor moans I have.
Wont they?
"Elf needs food badly"
"Don't drink the potion"
"Warriors about to die"
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lordryexMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited February 2013
If I remember right the only difference between the DD Paladin and the Cleric was that the Cleric has higher end Heal spells. The rest of the armor and weapon limitations are the same (havent read the new D and D edition rules) as well as the basic spells (Lay on hands, heal, Turn Undead, etc).
One thing that really makes them different though is that Paladin can only be Lawful Good while Cleric can choose all. I hope this gets implemented too with effects.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
It has nothing to do with past or current editions of D&D. Yes the Devoted Cleric suggested build in 4E recommands that they choose only ranged powers but they still use a blunt weapon for a stat stick.
I feel this as alot more to do with the devs deciding that if the weapon as no use in combat then they shouldnt have one. It would be fairly easy to let them equip a blunt weapon in one hand and the holy symbol as off hand and divide the stats between the two.
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
perhaps introduce a cleric holy sigil that is hammer shaped and you can use that to hammer foes but as magical attacks instead of melee, meaning the graphics show you hitting but the damage is holy/sun damage as melee range.
This could also make the cleric class to have different specialization trees as other uses a hammer sigil and the other a normal sigil (the holy cross the cleric is having at his hand).
If you go more to the hammer direction your character looses some of the ranged abilities and the other way around.
ikikikikkikki ~Bloodlance
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zeruinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
What is it about melee clerics that attracts you guys soo much? As a meta healer, you should never be in the thick of battle, but rather keeping your range to focus on healing and support. What purpose would you have trying to do melee damage when it's most likely insignificant damage at best?
It's obvious this game is leaning towards the Tank/Healer/DPS trinity, so what role would a melee cleric fill? If you're thinking Healer, maybe, but it surely wouldn't be as effective in group play (dungeons) as other class options.
I think it's awesome they actually give the Devoted Cleric some skills that do worthwhile ranged damage and healing at the same time.
I really think you guys are giving this game too much credit in the assumption that they are going to release so many classes. You'd be lucky for them to release 10-15 total.
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What is it about melee clerics that attracts you guys soo much? As a meta healer, you should never be in the thick of battle, but rather keeping your range to focus on healing and support. What purpose would you have trying to do melee damage when it's most likely insignificant damage at best?
Cleric melee damage is not insignificant in any edition of PnP D&D (or DDO, and I assume NWN1&2) if you build for it. Melee clerics have always been a viable option in D&D, and could be in Neverwinter.
It's obvious this game is leaning towards the Tank/Healer/DPS trinity, so what role would a melee cleric fill? If you're thinking Healer, maybe, but it surely wouldn't be as effective in group play (dungeons) as other class options.
A Healer that deals more damage than the Devoted Cleric, in exchange for taking greater risks by being in melee. The Devoted Cleric, as far as I've seen, appears to be more ranged DPS than "support" in any capacity other than healing.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Plus most powers of Battle Cleric are more buffs for the party oriented as opposed to pure healing.
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kerlaaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
IMO the current healer could be called a ranged DPS/healer hybrid were as a Battle Cleric would be a melee/healer or buffer hybrid.
I would be welling to loss some of the healing ability for melee/buff power. Would make a great off healer in case of emergencies. Maybe a Leader role.
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keneringMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What is it about melee clerics that attracts you guys soo much? As a meta healer, you should never be in the thick of battle, but rather keeping your range to focus on healing and support.
You just don't know this right feeling I recommend you to check it with warpriest in warhammer or bear shaman in Conan. You SHOULD be in the thick of battle.
It's obvious this game is leaning towards the Tank/Healer/DPS trinity, so what role would a melee cleric fill? If you're thinking Healer, maybe, but it surely wouldn't be as effective in group play (dungeons) as other class options.
You forgot about 'link' between roles in trinity. Hybrid one. It's called 'support'. Melee cleric deals damage, and dealing damage heals himself and allies. It's simple.
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akslammerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 5Arc User
I won't stop whining with 'I need melee cleric now!'. Warpriest, or somekind. Don't compare melee cleric with paladin, please, they are different in the root.
Uses a mace check, wears armor check, uses a shield check, heals other characters check. Both sound the same to me
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quorforgedMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Uses a mace check, wears armor check, uses a shield check, heals other characters check. Both sound the same to me
First of, I'm talking about two-handed hammer. Second - compared to your logic I can say: "You wear pants, half of the world do, you wear shirt, half of the world do. You are the same as half of the world?". You know, different between paladin and cleric is much deeper although they can use same equipment. Paladin is knight, first of everything. Call him knight-errant, or orden-lover, or defender of the temples etc.etc. They are knights. On the other side, clerics are religious leaders, divine conduits, nothing stops them from wearing same equipment (exept for blunt-only use due to bloodspill prohibition), but they are different in basis.
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quer1llaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited February 2013
The reason why I want a battle cleric so much is because all my younger years playing D&D this is the fantasy character I liked the most.
Spiritual, protecting (shield & mace) I always played Lawful good. Whether it makes any sense or not, this is the character I want to play in this game.
I could easily see a place for the Battle Cleric/Warpriest in a support role, giving buffs to the group and maybe some small healing. Then, as another healer, I could see the introduction of the bard.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a tank, DPS, healer and support from the three main 4E power sources: martial, divine and arcane. It would work pretty well, though it would take time to create the classes.
Then, as your tanks, you'd have the Guardian Fighter, the Protector Paladin and Ensnaring Swordmage. For healers, you'd have the Devoted Cleric, the Inspiring Warlord and the Valorous Bard. For Control Classes, you'd have the Control Wizard, the Wrathful Invoker and the Hunter Ranger. Then, for DPS, you'd have your GW Fighter, Trickster Rogue, Scourge Warlock and Pursuing Avenger.
The upside? You can have themed parties. Parties that focus on the divine (paladin, cleric, avenger, invoker), arcane (bard, swordmage, wizard, warlock) and pure martial (Fighters, rogue, ranger, warlord). The downside? It's a lot of work to make that many classes and also make those that perform the same role different enough from each other to warrant ponying up the Zen to buy them while, at the same time, maintaining parity in performance so that one tank isn't outright better or worse than the others, etc.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
As far as the devoted cleric is concerned, i still wish they could choose an ability or two that would use a blunt weapon that they should be able to equip. Just that would make me very happy
Warpriest please! and thanks! but ill deal with the Devoted for now!
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doctorcomicsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Silverstars, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
The Melee cleric is indeed a traditional DnD class, found in every edition from 4E back to at least the blue box, which is when I started playing. It also has deep roots in the Realms, where people have been playing and reading about Melee clerics for decades. A Melee cleric would be welcomed by many players and would suit both the system and the setting.
On Paladins: Some are suggesting that paladins, if added, will essentially fill this niche. Paladins are the quintessential hybrid class, along with rangers. They have full armor and fight, but also cast spells, heal, and have various supernatural powers. In 4E they are defenders -- tanks -- with the option to take powers which occasionally heal. Devs seem to be working hard to make each class play differently and have its own resource, but paladins will not Channel Divinity -- which swaps out all the powers on your bar for new versions -- and we can bet Clerics will. They will play very differently.
On Melee Healing: Some have asked why we should want a Melee healer at all, suggesting the "proper" place for a healer is in back, where allies can be healed without the cleric being in danger. There are many reasons a Melee healer is desirable. First, the action combat system means you can't tab target, so when the rogue and the fighter are running all over the map obscured by Orcs, the only way to reliably target them is to be in Melee alongside them. AoE and aura-based heals also make the Melee cleric very workable. This is also in genre and suits the game -- in DnD, Cure Light Wounds and all its sister-spells are touch range only. In 4E especially, Clerics are designed to heal while also fighting; that is, you don't need to spend your attack action casting Cure. Because that is boring and no fun. It's much more fun to be attacking and curing at the same time. And, for many people, Melee combat is just more fun than ranged combat.
We would like a class that allows us to combine the things we like most: team support and Melee combat. There's plenty of support for it in the game and the setting. Now we just need the devs to rise to the challenge.
The Melee cleric is indeed a traditional DnD class, found in every edition from 4E back to at least the blue box, which is when I started playing. It also has deep roots in the Realms, where people have been playing and reading about Melee clerics for decades. A Melee cleric would be welcomed by many players and would suit both the system and the setting.
Melee Cleric goes all the way back to the very first publication of DnD in 1974. It even predates the introduction of the Thief.
Really, Melee Cleric was the only kind of Cleric for a long time. Non-melee Clerics were really just Melee Clerics that chose not to use their melee capabilities, and chose to just cast spells instead, until 4E introduced actual ranged-focused Clerics.
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Even if you choose only ranged powers in 4th edition you are still the cleric archetype in armor weilding a blunt weapon, you just dont use it much and its still a stat stick. The problem here is that if something serves no use in combat then it is discarded.
Devoted Clerics do not even have the option to melee so it leaves me wondering why Str is a secondary stat. I realize stats have defense ability’s added to them, but I would think Cha or Con over Str if you're never going to be able to melee. I hope Neverwinter is not like EverQuest Online Adventures where a Wizard had to pump up Dex for their spells to do damage and Int only affected their mana pool. Pumping Str to do more spell dmg will leave me filling awkward to a degree. I understand 4th ED adds spells/ability’s with unlimited use so a Wizard or a Cleric need not melee to preserve spells for hard pressed fights, but a mace and board melee/caster cleric is what will bring me into the class. 4th ED wiki seems to support this theory as they can use simple melee and simple ranged weapons.
Comments
Its true that there is room for a caster cleric and I do see the logic of their choice but for me I was that classic dwarf cleric with the mace and shield for nearly a decade on and off.
When I saw the cleric vid I was a little choked to be honest. Maybe it will grow on me once I get to play who knows.
If I had the option to drop that laughably humongous over the top holy symbol at the cost to casting abilities and get in there and mix it up a bit when needed then I would feel a little warmer to the devs choice.
But hey ho I am sure that good points will out way any minor moans I have.
Wont they?
"Elf needs food badly"
"Don't drink the potion"
"Warriors about to die"
One thing that really makes them different though is that Paladin can only be Lawful Good while Cleric can choose all. I hope this gets implemented too with effects.
I feel this as alot more to do with the devs deciding that if the weapon as no use in combat then they shouldnt have one. It would be fairly easy to let them equip a blunt weapon in one hand and the holy symbol as off hand and divide the stats between the two.
Oh yes please or even 1h hammer +hvy Shield.
I mean this IS a melee Priest an there is nothing better.
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, simple ranged
Implement: Holy symbol
Unlike other implements, holy symbols only need to be worn. They can be held, but don't need to be.
Clerics don't start with shield proficiency, but can take it with a feat pretty easily.
That is true.
This could also make the cleric class to have different specialization trees as other uses a hammer sigil and the other a normal sigil (the holy cross the cleric is having at his hand).
If you go more to the hammer direction your character looses some of the ranged abilities and the other way around.
It's obvious this game is leaning towards the Tank/Healer/DPS trinity, so what role would a melee cleric fill? If you're thinking Healer, maybe, but it surely wouldn't be as effective in group play (dungeons) as other class options.
I think it's awesome they actually give the Devoted Cleric some skills that do worthwhile ranged damage and healing at the same time.
I really think you guys are giving this game too much credit in the assumption that they are going to release so many classes. You'd be lucky for them to release 10-15 total.
Cleric melee damage is not insignificant in any edition of PnP D&D (or DDO, and I assume NWN1&2) if you build for it. Melee clerics have always been a viable option in D&D, and could be in Neverwinter.
A Healer that deals more damage than the Devoted Cleric, in exchange for taking greater risks by being in melee. The Devoted Cleric, as far as I've seen, appears to be more ranged DPS than "support" in any capacity other than healing.
I would be welling to loss some of the healing ability for melee/buff power. Would make a great off healer in case of emergencies. Maybe a Leader role.
WoW has nothing to do with this, I personaly disrespect them for messing with cleric and paladin. Your words pierces my heart like a needle.
You just don't know this right feeling
You forgot about 'link' between roles in trinity. Hybrid one. It's called 'support'. Melee cleric deals damage, and dealing damage heals himself and allies. It's simple.
Uses a mace check, wears armor check, uses a shield check, heals other characters check. Both sound the same to me
Paladins traditionally use swords.
See? Totally different!
First of, I'm talking about two-handed hammer. Second - compared to your logic I can say: "You wear pants, half of the world do, you wear shirt, half of the world do. You are the same as half of the world?". You know, different between paladin and cleric is much deeper although they can use same equipment. Paladin is knight, first of everything. Call him knight-errant, or orden-lover, or defender of the temples etc.etc. They are knights. On the other side, clerics are religious leaders, divine conduits, nothing stops them from wearing same equipment (exept for blunt-only use due to bloodspill prohibition), but they are different in basis.
Spiritual, protecting (shield & mace) I always played Lawful good. Whether it makes any sense or not, this is the character I want to play in this game.
Honestly, I wouldn't mind seeing a tank, DPS, healer and support from the three main 4E power sources: martial, divine and arcane. It would work pretty well, though it would take time to create the classes.
Then, as your tanks, you'd have the Guardian Fighter, the Protector Paladin and Ensnaring Swordmage. For healers, you'd have the Devoted Cleric, the Inspiring Warlord and the Valorous Bard. For Control Classes, you'd have the Control Wizard, the Wrathful Invoker and the Hunter Ranger. Then, for DPS, you'd have your GW Fighter, Trickster Rogue, Scourge Warlock and Pursuing Avenger.
The upside? You can have themed parties. Parties that focus on the divine (paladin, cleric, avenger, invoker), arcane (bard, swordmage, wizard, warlock) and pure martial (Fighters, rogue, ranger, warlord). The downside? It's a lot of work to make that many classes and also make those that perform the same role different enough from each other to warrant ponying up the Zen to buy them while, at the same time, maintaining parity in performance so that one tank isn't outright better or worse than the others, etc.
What he said. Tempus demands it.
On Paladins: Some are suggesting that paladins, if added, will essentially fill this niche. Paladins are the quintessential hybrid class, along with rangers. They have full armor and fight, but also cast spells, heal, and have various supernatural powers. In 4E they are defenders -- tanks -- with the option to take powers which occasionally heal. Devs seem to be working hard to make each class play differently and have its own resource, but paladins will not Channel Divinity -- which swaps out all the powers on your bar for new versions -- and we can bet Clerics will. They will play very differently.
On Melee Healing: Some have asked why we should want a Melee healer at all, suggesting the "proper" place for a healer is in back, where allies can be healed without the cleric being in danger. There are many reasons a Melee healer is desirable. First, the action combat system means you can't tab target, so when the rogue and the fighter are running all over the map obscured by Orcs, the only way to reliably target them is to be in Melee alongside them. AoE and aura-based heals also make the Melee cleric very workable. This is also in genre and suits the game -- in DnD, Cure Light Wounds and all its sister-spells are touch range only. In 4E especially, Clerics are designed to heal while also fighting; that is, you don't need to spend your attack action casting Cure. Because that is boring and no fun. It's much more fun to be attacking and curing at the same time. And, for many people, Melee combat is just more fun than ranged combat.
We would like a class that allows us to combine the things we like most: team support and Melee combat. There's plenty of support for it in the game and the setting. Now we just need the devs to rise to the challenge.
Seven Against Thay: An RP-Focused Guild for all Races and Classes
Melee Cleric goes all the way back to the very first publication of DnD in 1974. It even predates the introduction of the Thief.
Really, Melee Cleric was the only kind of Cleric for a long time. Non-melee Clerics were really just Melee Clerics that chose not to use their melee capabilities, and chose to just cast spells instead, until 4E introduced actual ranged-focused Clerics.
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