Nope. My favourite business model is the Guild Wars model. Buy the game, no subscription, cosmetic cash shop, purchase expansions. Avoids the milking of a subscription and the stigma of free-to-play
That said I'm rapidly losing that bias against free-to-play games. Used to be that the free-to-play games were always sub-tier products, but since subscription based games starting going f2p and now with Neverwinter slated to be free out the gate, let's just say the model has gained some serious credibility.
No sub. I dealt with subs for 8 years in that other popular MMO and finally moved away from it just this year and vowed to never pay a sub when there are plenty of quality free to play and buy to play games out there. If I enjoy a game I will support it through a cash shop, otherwise I will just not play it or play it to it's limitations and move along.
The subscription based game is finally coming to an end, all hail the true f2p model that NWO is bringing to the masses.
There is a rumor floating around that I am working on a new foundry quest. It was started by me.
A subscription in Neverwinter would make little sense because the game was never designed to support one. All you could really do with a subscription would be to grant things like character slots and a stipend of Astral Diamonds, but those are not compelling reasons to have a subscription when you can permanently purchase character slots and Astral Diamonds can be obtained in other ways.
But I recognize F2P is the way to go, it's no longer the bastion of a game that can't maintain a subscriber base (*cough* SWTOR *cough*), it's really just the future for MMOs.
Yeah no doubt. I am not a fan though. The more f2p happens they more lame <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> things like locked boxes and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that happen. Yeah I know I have an irrational hated of locked boxes, but that is because I hate dealing with them. You know what I would pay for? A way to not see locked boxes in the game ever. Everyone else can see them but I don't want to see a corpse sparkle and run over for loot and it be a stupid lock box over and over and over and over again. CO is horrible with that. I get more lock boxes than actual loot.
Well there are ways to make a subscription plan work.
One example would be to have a subscription plan that gives a set amount of ZEN in addition to other bonuses for a month at a time. It would be an incentive for players to purchase zen every month (basically a reward for it).
Dungeons and Dragons Online has something similar to this with VIP at this point. You get 500 turbine points (basically zen) per month of VIP you pay for (and depending on how long you subscribe for that can be at about the same ratio of money to tp as purchasing tp straight out would be).
So for NWO, if you get 100 zen per dollar, you could have a subscription plan that costs $10 a month and gives 1000 zen, 2 bonus character slots (as long as he subscription is current) and access to additional classes etc.
You would not "lose" anything since you get the full amount of zen you would have gotten from purchasing it straight up, but it gives incentive to players to purchase zen each month (and gives them a bit more bang for their buck as well).
It's also convenient for players who really don't want to deal with buying zen for each new thing that comes out etc. I like having VIP status in DDO for instance, even though I don't need it anymore, because I automatically get TP (for when I do need it) and I get a few nice perks (like a bit faster movement speed in town, ability to start quests on highest difficulty level etc).
I can understand why so many people are tired of the subscription plan though, but at the same time it confuses me on how this whole FTP thing is actually working.
If so many people are against subscription plans, doesn't that mean companies that go FTP would make less money...since players don't want to spend even $10-$15 a month? It seems like it's the other way around though, which makes me worried that the players that do end up playing and paying, are paying much more.
0
muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
For any of the SoE, Mythic type F2P systems, yes I want to be able to subscribe, due the their hybrid nature.
For NWO, I don't want to see a subscription option. The game is ground up F2P, with the assurance that everything we can get in store, will be available through just playing. If that is true, I am actually pretty excited about being able to "earn" my stuff, or the currency needed to buy it in game. If NWO turns out to have what I am looking for in an MMORPG, I will easily play enough to earn what I need in game.
If so many people are against subscription plans, doesn't that mean companies that go FTP would make less money...since players don't want to spend even $10-$15 a month? It seems like it's the other way around though, which makes me worried that the players that do end up playing and paying, are paying much more.
Free-to-play games can potentially make thousands of dollars per customer per month, or make nothing. It is more freeing than a subscription game in that aspect, and thus the distribution of what players pay differs.
In a subscription game, every customer spends the same amount, more or less, so the average revenue per user (ARPU) is virtually the same as the subscription cost. In a free-to-play game, the small minority covers the cost for the large majority, in general. This small minority can spend $50, $100, or even $1000+ per month, which offsets the majority that spends nothing or perhaps $10 every two or three months. The ARPU may end up the same as a subscription game, but how the revenue is obtained and from whom is far different.
It can be worrisome, especially if the free-to-play game preys on the psychology of the type of customer that spends hundreds per month in an exploitative manner, and many do.
I thought I had heard "somewhere" that there was going to be no subscription option at all for NWO..which is why I started this thread mainly. I wanted to see if anyone would miss that.
I kinda like that option to be honest.
Given that Champions Online is the base system, a subscription can probably be easily turned on Neverwinter Online.
A subscription is something that can be realistically be asked for if a subscription is possible for a D&D4 game.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Free-to-play games can potentially make thousands of dollars per customer per month, or make nothing. It is more freeing than a subscription game in that aspect, and thus the distribution of what players pay differs.
In a subscription game, every customer spends the same amount, more or less, so the average revenue per user (ARPU) is virtually the same as the subscription cost. In a free-to-play game, the small minority covers the cost for the large majority, in general. This small minority can spend $50, $100, or even $1000+ per month, which offsets the majority that spends nothing or perhaps $10 every two or three months. The ARPU may end up the same as a subscription game, but how the revenue is obtained and from whom is far different.
It can be worrisome, especially if the free-to-play game preys on the psychology of the type of customer that spends hundreds per month in an exploitative manner, and many do.
ACK!!
That is what scares me.
I'm fine with $10-$20 a month.
I'm ok as long as you can get full access to the game for around $20 a month or so, but if you start charging those that do pay $100+ a month to get full access, in order to make up for the players who pay nothing...that would really upset me.
Given that Champions Online is the base system, a subscription can probably be easily turned on Neverwinter Online.
A subscription is something that can be realistically be asked for if a subscription is possible for a D&D4 game.
I dont' know if a D&D4 game can have one, but I figured getting a feeler out there for what everyone thinks about subscription options would be the first step in asking for one. Doesn't look like it's that popular though.
I still think having a subscription model that includes Zen (and just gives perks for purchasing Zen on a regular basis) would be a good idea all around. In generaly, you set the subscription plan up for say 3 month minimum (at $30), and give perks based on that (you get $10 worth of Zen per month for 3 months).
This has multiple advantages for everyone.
The players get the perks (maybe extra char slots, classes are opened to play, faster movement speed in town etc) and get full value in zen for the money they spend (they just don't get it all at once).
NWO both gets more players to purchase Zen, but more importantly helps ensure the players will stick around and keep playing the game (or come back to it if they get distracted by another one briefly).
As an example, when Borederlands 2 came out, I took a break for a few months to play it from my current MMO (dungeons and dragons online). If I hadn't had a subscription plan....I might not have gone right back to playing it..and tried another MMO (TERA, GW2 etc). I didn't though, and I have enjoyed playing DDO again since going back (and yes, spent more money on TP as well hehe).
So subscription plans can really just be a bonus if they are optional, and only give optional bonuses to the players.
I'd say for a plan to work with NWO, it would need to give a good return of money to ZEN...and have a few nice perks that go along with it. The perks themselves could mostly be purchased with Zen, but having a few that are not....would be nice. Perhaps a boost in ADs that can be refined per day, a small boost (in NWO 5%) to movement speed in public areas, two additional class spots for testing characters with (I say testing because if you stop subscribing you'd need to purchase those slots to use the characters), and possibly pre-views of new classes etc that are available only for subscribers.
It seems like subscription plans have gotten a bad rap, but I don't think they have to be negative. I think they could be rewards for customers who steadily spend money on a game.
I'm ok as long as you can get full access to the game for around $20 a month or so, but if you start charging those that do pay $100+ a month to get full access, in order to make up for the players who pay nothing...that would really upset me.
Well, it depends on what one defines as "full access."
The customers who spend large sums of money on free-to-play games are not paying for what I would define as "full access," but rather perks that enhance the game for them or appeal to some neurosis such as "completionism."
If, for example, owning a rare companion costs $100 but it does not actually affect gameplay, I would not say owning it constitutes full access. Anyone who owns it is doing it for prestige or some other similar reason.
I suspect perks like rare mounts, companions, and other aesthetic items will drive profit for Neverwinter, coupled with convenience items, like bag slots and character slots. The former will be what the "whales" (customers who spend lots per month) will buy, while the latter will be more useful to everyone.
Regardless, every player should have full access without having to spend much, if anything, as long as one does not include owning every possible item as having full access.
Yeah I wouldn't mind a sub option at all, if the game is good and the sub option has great benifits I would sub.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
After playing both free to play and subscription models I have to say absolutely not.
A true free to play model is so much better than a subscription model it's laughable.
If Cryptic/PWE follow through with a true free to play model I don't imagine we'll ever see another thread like this. The few true free to play games currently on the market have some decent complaints but little is from their marketing.
And the thing is...
Once there is a subscription model it is no longer free to play. It's freemium (a premium with a demo version honestly)
At that point you can expect DDO V2. No new free content and the same free to play marketing model (cosmetic and convenience microtransactions) to smack you in the face on top.
Well, it depends on what one defines as "full access."
The customers who spend large sums of money on free-to-play games are not paying for what I would define as "full access," but rather perks that enhance the game for them or appeal to some neurosis such as "completionism."
If, for example, owning a rare companion costs $100 but it does not actually affect gameplay, I would not say owning it constitutes full access. Anyone who owns it is doing it for prestige or some other similar reason.
I suspect perks like rare mounts, companions, and other aesthetic items will drive profit for Neverwinter, coupled with convenience items, like bag slots and character slots. The former will be what the "whales" (customers who spend lots per month) will buy, while the latter will be more useful to everyone.
Regardless, every player should have full access without having to spend much, if anything, as long as one does not include owning every possible item as having full access.
Yeah, I don't count cosmetic stuff as full access at all (nor do I really care about it). The only time I have ever purchased cosmetic stuff (like in Path of Exile) was because it was the only thing available and I wanted to support the game.
Extra inventory/bank slots though is another story...that is quite important sometimes and worth purchasing if you play an MMO alot. I would consider that full access to some degree (although only to a point).
I am, in general, a completionist for content. I'll always want to try all the classes (and have a character of each class, so enough slots for that etc) on any MMO I actually stick around and play for a long time. I did that for Dark age of Camelot, WoW and have had many characters of each class (on many server even) in DDO as well. I'll happy pay for that right. Cosmetics though? Graphics usually are not a big deal to me (though NWO does have some great ones) so cosmetic usually don't make a diff either.
I can't believe some people spend so much for cosmetic options. Seems crazy to me, but if it pays for FTP games...and they have the cash, more power too them!
After playing both free to play and subscription models I have to say absolutely not.
A true free to play model is so much better than a subscription model it's laughable.
If Cryptic/PWE follow through with a true free to play model I don't imagine we'll ever see another thread like this. The few true free to play games currently on the market have some decent complaints but little is from their marketing.
I havn't had the opportunity to play a true free to play game yet, nor do I really understand how they make a profit. Oh, I guess that is not true since Path of Exile is truely a FTP game (and a great one) although I have spent money on it to support the game.
My largest experience with FTP is dungeons and dragons online, and that I guess doesn't constitute as a true free to play game since so much content needs to be purchases (Classes, races, character slots, adventure packs etc).
I'm guessing a true free to play game is one where all content is literally free, and the only thing you pay for is cosmetics..or minor luxury items like extra bank space etc?
I'm all for NWO being like that, but it at least sounded like classes (and of course character slots) were going to need to be purchased. If that is not the case, then a subscription model wouldn't make any sense at all.
If you do need to buy content though, and it's not super cheap ($5 a char slot, $10 for a new class etc)...then a subscription might be a better option for some.
There are some things to remember, regarding a subscription.
1. Full access can't be offered as some of the packs have already promised exclusive access.
2. There will probably still be a Zen and Astral Diamond shop and so additional spending could still tempt people.
3. Extra content would probably need to be provided in order to with hold it from non-subscribers.
4. Wizards and Crypic would both have to agree to it.
A key question will be how long has NO got before it has to be released?
If they have sold enough Hero of the North and Founder's Packs then delaying development, and performing a redesign or adding more content, becomes more probable.
Superhero stories, done well, are about modern archetypes.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
After playing both free to play and subscription models I have to say absolutely not.
A true free to play model is so much better than a subscription model it's laughable.
If Cryptic/PWE follow through with a true free to play model I don't imagine we'll ever see another thread like this. The few true free to play games currently on the market have some decent complaints but little is from their marketing.
And the thing is...
Once there is a subscription model it is no longer free to play. It's freemium (a premium with a demo version honestly)
At that point you can expect DDO V2. No new free content and the same free to play marketing model (cosmetic and convenience microtransactions) to smack you in the face on top.
Planetside 2's subscription model is my favourite implementation. You get +Exp, +Resources, early access to item shop cosmetics (and only this), and 500 Station Cash per month (which is $5 worth of cash). I'm not saying that Neverwinter should follow and have the same perks, but it doesn't affect anyone's gameplay. Sure you can unlock weapons with the Station Cash, but it's just a convenience for people who don't want to spend the time playing the game to unlock it and want it now.
There are some things to remember, regarding a subscription.
1. Full access can't be offered as some of the packs have already promised exclusive access.
2. There will probably still be a Zen and Astral Diamond shop and so additional spending could still tempt people.
3. Extra content would probably need to be provided in order to with hold it from non-subscribers.
4. Wizards and Crypic would both have to agree to it.
A key question will be how long has NO got before it has to be released?
If they have sold enough Hero of the North and Founder's Packs then delaying development, and performing a redesign or adding more content, becomes more probable.
Full access doesn't need to be promised since the terms of a subscription plan can be whatever both parties agree on. In this case charging $30 for 3 months of perks and $10 of zen per month for example. The perks can be whatever the player base decides they really want (perhaps even voted on in the boards etc).
The zen and Astral diamonds shops would actually be part of why people would subscribe, since you get Zen from a subscription (DDO does that already with turbine points so it's not new). The advantage to NWO would be that they know players are more likely to keep playing their game and keep paying either for the subscription or purchasing more zen in the future. Players would have just as much Zen (and possibly even more if they want to give a slight boost..say 1100 zen a month for $10 a month) as if they purchased it directly.
Extra content wouldn't really need to be provided, just extra perks. Two extra character slots, Movement speed boosts, Extra bank space/backpack space etc are all things that can be provided as perks. You could purchase them with zen (and will need to if you stop subscribing) but you can get it as a perk for subscribing as well. Gives people a chance to try out new characters before buying a slot for them etc.
As far as wizards and Cryptic agreeing to it...well that is true, but if it would make them more money, or keep more people (who are obviously willing to spend money) playing the game, I think it would be an easy sell. Not sure on the Wizards part though.
I don't know how many founders packs they have sold, or will sell. I'd imagine they have probably sold a majority of the packs they will sell at this point (since one of the key points is the whole beta access). They did state the founders packs will be updated once the betas are over to have other perks instead, so they may sell more later.
I'm guessing if they are making plenty of money the whole subscription thing will never even come up, unless of course the player base wants it. I think it could be a positive way to get people to buy more zen, and keep playing the game....but there is so much negative feeling about subscription plans at this point I doubt it will happen.
Planetside 2's subscription model is my favourite implementation. You get +Exp, +Resources, early access to item shop cosmetics (and only this), and 500 Station Cash per month (which is $5 worth of cash). I'm not saying that Neverwinter should follow and have the same perks, but it doesn't affect anyone's gameplay. Sure you can unlock weapons with the Station Cash, but it's just a convenience for people who don't want to spend the time playing the game to unlock it and want it now.
Woot!
Didn't know anyone had done that already, but that is almost exactly what I was suggesting. DDO is similar to that as well in many ways with the VIP plan (though it gives a ton more for actual new players). That is exactly what I was thinking would be good for NWO though. Didn't think of the +xp part, but I don't think i'd really like that to be honest. Leveling is already so fast early on at least and it seems like a pretty big advantage. The other parts though sound great.
I'd definately be willing to cough up a monthly VIP subscription.
No thank you. Including a subscription plan makes the developers value mandatory time-wasting over actual fun. And optional subscription plans come with the eventual sub-only content.
Didn't know anyone had done that already, but that is almost exactly what I was suggesting. DDO is similar to that as well in many ways with the VIP plan (though it gives a ton more for actual new players). That is exactly what I was thinking would be good for NWO though. Didn't think of the +xp part, but I don't think i'd really like that to be honest. Leveling is already so fast early on at least and it seems like a pretty big advantage. The other parts though sound great.
Paying for certain specific customization things is fine, but equipment? That's a terrible idea. Guild Wars and Dota 2's model is far superior to the MMOs-who-were-sub-but-now-are-free-except-for-most-content-and-you-can-just-buy-equipment-to-completely-ruin-the-experience-for-everyone model that Sony invented and now forced into every one of their games.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
shaigunjoeMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited February 2013
It would depend, I'd be all for a good subscription plan. Lord of the Rings Online has a pretty terrible plan, but Tera has a pretty good one, so it could go either way.
0
starkaosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
If Neverwinter did a subscription plan, then it would be very similar to Star Trek Online's subscription plan. Some minor benefits, but you are always wondering why you are paying for a subscription. It seems like most F2P games with a subscription have a very poor F2P system so they are trying to force you into a subscription. If they introduced a cash shop when the game was subscription only, then there would be some problems, but with the F2P model they can have a cash shop and subscriptions without people complaining too much about the cash shop.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
When I think Free to Play I think of League of Legends and Dota.
These games make huge profits purely from selling cosmetics and convenience while offering all new content either for free or gained through gameplay.
DDO is not free to play, it's freemium: a premium game with a free demo.
All their new content has to be purchased and often at stupidly high rates.
That's the difference between free to play and premium and any game which has a subscription is premium. In the end if you aren't paying the premium you'll either be gouged or left in the dust. Optional premium plans are, in my experience, lacking in the optional department.
The only reason STO and other converted games are left in this in-between state is because there is No fair way to make premium games true free to play without alienating their original customer base.
Any in game benefit from subscription plans tend to be on the verge of pay to win, which makes sense in a premium game, but true free to play is something which, once experienced, is something that will always be better (and make more logical sense) than a premium subscription plan.
No thank you. Including a subscription plan makes the developers value mandatory time-wasting over actual fun. And optional subscription plans come with the eventual sub-only content.
Paying for certain specific customization things is fine, but equipment? That's a terrible idea. Guild Wars and Dota 2's model is far superior to the MMOs-who-were-sub-but-now-are-free-except-for-most-content-and-you-can-just-buy-equipment-to-completely-ruin-the-experience-for-everyone model that Sony invented and now forced into every one of their games.
True. SUb based games are becoming obsolete, supported mainly by the hardcore fans of the franchize. Take Warhammer online, a good game, but not worth the 15 bucks they charge now, thou the few HC enthusiasts that remain loyal will probably go down together with the sinking ship. Not good for the business, especially for a fresh new name on the allready crammed market.
GW2 recipe is brilliant on the other hand, buy a box or a digital version of it, sell 2 million copies and you can cover the funding budget.
I think NO should follow the same path, buy once, play for ever. I don't quite get it, how will the developers of NO cover all the costs with the f2p system. How are going to pay the game? I'm not sure if there will be enough players willing to spend in the cash shop, to maintain all the costs. What if they don't succeed in their financial plan?
I think they should at least leave the option of B2p open, just in case. I would support that.
There would have to be a good reason for one. But I prefer games that if they have complex purchases systems/choices, that I prefer a sub to just get everything without thinking much about it. If the game is good $15 a month works without a sweat for me.
Paying for certain specific customization things is fine, but equipment? That's a terrible idea. Guild Wars and Dota 2's model is far superior to the MMOs-who-were-sub-but-now-are-free-except-for-most-content-and-you-can-just-buy-equipment-to-completely-ruin-the-experience-for-everyone model that Sony invented and now forced into every one of their games.
Buying the equipment (or in this case, weapons, which is the only thing you equip in the game) does not offer an advantage over other players because every weapon that is sold in the item shop is also obtainable without spending any money at all, and are all side-grades anyways. Cash shops are going to be about cosmetics and CONVENIENCE aka "spend real money to unlock this now" or "spend money to get more exp to help you unlock things quickly".
True. SUb based games are becoming obsolete, supported mainly by the hardcore fans of the franchize. Take Warhammer online, a good game, but not worth the 15 bucks they charge now, thou the few HC enthusiasts that remain loyal will probably go down together with the sinking ship. Not good for the business, especially for a fresh new name on the allready crammed market.
GW2 recipe is brilliant on the other hand, buy a box or a digital version of it, sell 2 million copies and you can cover the funding budget.
I think NO should follow the same path, buy once, play for ever. I don't quite get it, how will the developers of NO cover all the costs with the f2p system. How are going to pay the game? I'm not sure if there will be enough players willing to spend in the cash shop, to maintain all the costs. What if they don't succeed in their financial plan?
I think they should at least leave the option of B2p open, just in case. I would support that.
That is one of my concerns. I only played the game a bit, but it looks like a blast and something I'll be able to sink my teeth into.
I'm guessing that the creators want to make a profit though, and that the game will go poof if they do not (and don't keep making a profit for that matter).
Here is an example, I had a Yo-gart place open near me last summer. Seemed like a nice store and my wife loves frozen yogart, so I bought a whole bunch of gift cards for friends, and a ton for my household as well. I have $250 worth of gift card value left at this point, but he store closed a few months ago, so it was all wasted.
FTP seems simliar to me in that we can buy founders packs to support it, but what happens if nobody uses the cash shop and it doesn't make enough money? Does it fall on the few of us that are paying to spend enough to keep the game going? FTP seems to give the impression that you can play the whole game (or most of it) without spending any money, but at the same time seems to expect people to spend money to support it.
I don't have faith in people in general to spend money when they don't have to. Logically they should, but it just doesn't seem to work that way. Instead, I have the fear that a much smaller number of players will end up shouldering the burden of making NWO profitable. I don't think they will do it because they want cosmetic options etc, but instead because they like the game and want to see it succeed.
That is not fair to them though.
So a true free to play game that bases it's income only on "at will" donations (for minor cosmetic effects)...which honestly has to be considered a donation cause I really don't think anyone cares about cosmetics enough to shell out hundreds of dollars for them, needs to be able to support itself with a much smaller amount of income. Those of us that are responsible and realize without any money the game will go poof, will support the game, but I don't think that will be even near the majority.
If on the other hand NWO is more like Champions Online etc, where you have to pay for in game content (Freemium I guess you called it) then I can understand the setup and how the game will become profitable, but it leaves me worried about the cost of content since again, those that are actually purchasing in game content are going to be making up for all the other players who are not.
0
starkaosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I have always stated that if the lifetime subscription didn't exist for Star Trek Online and Champions Online, then they would have been made into a completely F2P game and not those Freemium games that exist everywhere.
I can see various companions, backgrounds, costumes, and mounts added to the C-Store. Races and classes will always be free, but I could be proven wrong if the devs decide to make a particular race or class rare through C-Store purchases. The foundry pack already has weapons and armor in them so I can see equipment with a certain unique gimmick added to the C-Store.
Any of you people old enough to remember Mega Wars III on the compuserve network? Now that was expensive to play, at $6 an hour. Fear the cost of some of the first "MMO's".
Comments
That said I'm rapidly losing that bias against free-to-play games. Used to be that the free-to-play games were always sub-tier products, but since subscription based games starting going f2p and now with Neverwinter slated to be free out the gate, let's just say the model has gained some serious credibility.
The subscription based game is finally coming to an end, all hail the true f2p model that NWO is bringing to the masses.
Yeah no doubt. I am not a fan though. The more f2p happens they more lame <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> things like locked boxes and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> like that happen. Yeah I know I have an irrational hated of locked boxes, but that is because I hate dealing with them. You know what I would pay for? A way to not see locked boxes in the game ever. Everyone else can see them but I don't want to see a corpse sparkle and run over for loot and it be a stupid lock box over and over and over and over again. CO is horrible with that. I get more lock boxes than actual loot.
One example would be to have a subscription plan that gives a set amount of ZEN in addition to other bonuses for a month at a time. It would be an incentive for players to purchase zen every month (basically a reward for it).
Dungeons and Dragons Online has something similar to this with VIP at this point. You get 500 turbine points (basically zen) per month of VIP you pay for (and depending on how long you subscribe for that can be at about the same ratio of money to tp as purchasing tp straight out would be).
So for NWO, if you get 100 zen per dollar, you could have a subscription plan that costs $10 a month and gives 1000 zen, 2 bonus character slots (as long as he subscription is current) and access to additional classes etc.
You would not "lose" anything since you get the full amount of zen you would have gotten from purchasing it straight up, but it gives incentive to players to purchase zen each month (and gives them a bit more bang for their buck as well).
It's also convenient for players who really don't want to deal with buying zen for each new thing that comes out etc. I like having VIP status in DDO for instance, even though I don't need it anymore, because I automatically get TP (for when I do need it) and I get a few nice perks (like a bit faster movement speed in town, ability to start quests on highest difficulty level etc).
I can understand why so many people are tired of the subscription plan though, but at the same time it confuses me on how this whole FTP thing is actually working.
If so many people are against subscription plans, doesn't that mean companies that go FTP would make less money...since players don't want to spend even $10-$15 a month? It seems like it's the other way around though, which makes me worried that the players that do end up playing and paying, are paying much more.
For NWO, I don't want to see a subscription option. The game is ground up F2P, with the assurance that everything we can get in store, will be available through just playing. If that is true, I am actually pretty excited about being able to "earn" my stuff, or the currency needed to buy it in game. If NWO turns out to have what I am looking for in an MMORPG, I will easily play enough to earn what I need in game.
Free-to-play games can potentially make thousands of dollars per customer per month, or make nothing. It is more freeing than a subscription game in that aspect, and thus the distribution of what players pay differs.
In a subscription game, every customer spends the same amount, more or less, so the average revenue per user (ARPU) is virtually the same as the subscription cost. In a free-to-play game, the small minority covers the cost for the large majority, in general. This small minority can spend $50, $100, or even $1000+ per month, which offsets the majority that spends nothing or perhaps $10 every two or three months. The ARPU may end up the same as a subscription game, but how the revenue is obtained and from whom is far different.
It can be worrisome, especially if the free-to-play game preys on the psychology of the type of customer that spends hundreds per month in an exploitative manner, and many do.
Given that Champions Online is the base system, a subscription can probably be easily turned on Neverwinter Online.
A subscription is something that can be realistically be asked for if a subscription is possible for a D&D4 game.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
ACK!!
That is what scares me.
I'm fine with $10-$20 a month.
I'm ok as long as you can get full access to the game for around $20 a month or so, but if you start charging those that do pay $100+ a month to get full access, in order to make up for the players who pay nothing...that would really upset me.
I dont' know if a D&D4 game can have one, but I figured getting a feeler out there for what everyone thinks about subscription options would be the first step in asking for one. Doesn't look like it's that popular though.
I still think having a subscription model that includes Zen (and just gives perks for purchasing Zen on a regular basis) would be a good idea all around. In generaly, you set the subscription plan up for say 3 month minimum (at $30), and give perks based on that (you get $10 worth of Zen per month for 3 months).
This has multiple advantages for everyone.
The players get the perks (maybe extra char slots, classes are opened to play, faster movement speed in town etc) and get full value in zen for the money they spend (they just don't get it all at once).
NWO both gets more players to purchase Zen, but more importantly helps ensure the players will stick around and keep playing the game (or come back to it if they get distracted by another one briefly).
As an example, when Borederlands 2 came out, I took a break for a few months to play it from my current MMO (dungeons and dragons online). If I hadn't had a subscription plan....I might not have gone right back to playing it..and tried another MMO (TERA, GW2 etc). I didn't though, and I have enjoyed playing DDO again since going back (and yes, spent more money on TP as well hehe).
So subscription plans can really just be a bonus if they are optional, and only give optional bonuses to the players.
I'd say for a plan to work with NWO, it would need to give a good return of money to ZEN...and have a few nice perks that go along with it. The perks themselves could mostly be purchased with Zen, but having a few that are not....would be nice. Perhaps a boost in ADs that can be refined per day, a small boost (in NWO 5%) to movement speed in public areas, two additional class spots for testing characters with (I say testing because if you stop subscribing you'd need to purchase those slots to use the characters), and possibly pre-views of new classes etc that are available only for subscribers.
It seems like subscription plans have gotten a bad rap, but I don't think they have to be negative. I think they could be rewards for customers who steadily spend money on a game.
Well, it depends on what one defines as "full access."
The customers who spend large sums of money on free-to-play games are not paying for what I would define as "full access," but rather perks that enhance the game for them or appeal to some neurosis such as "completionism."
If, for example, owning a rare companion costs $100 but it does not actually affect gameplay, I would not say owning it constitutes full access. Anyone who owns it is doing it for prestige or some other similar reason.
I suspect perks like rare mounts, companions, and other aesthetic items will drive profit for Neverwinter, coupled with convenience items, like bag slots and character slots. The former will be what the "whales" (customers who spend lots per month) will buy, while the latter will be more useful to everyone.
Regardless, every player should have full access without having to spend much, if anything, as long as one does not include owning every possible item as having full access.
A true free to play model is so much better than a subscription model it's laughable.
If Cryptic/PWE follow through with a true free to play model I don't imagine we'll ever see another thread like this. The few true free to play games currently on the market have some decent complaints but little is from their marketing.
And the thing is...
Once there is a subscription model it is no longer free to play. It's freemium (a premium with a demo version honestly)
At that point you can expect DDO V2. No new free content and the same free to play marketing model (cosmetic and convenience microtransactions) to smack you in the face on top.
Yeah, I don't count cosmetic stuff as full access at all (nor do I really care about it). The only time I have ever purchased cosmetic stuff (like in Path of Exile) was because it was the only thing available and I wanted to support the game.
Extra inventory/bank slots though is another story...that is quite important sometimes and worth purchasing if you play an MMO alot. I would consider that full access to some degree (although only to a point).
I am, in general, a completionist for content. I'll always want to try all the classes (and have a character of each class, so enough slots for that etc) on any MMO I actually stick around and play for a long time. I did that for Dark age of Camelot, WoW and have had many characters of each class (on many server even) in DDO as well. I'll happy pay for that right. Cosmetics though? Graphics usually are not a big deal to me (though NWO does have some great ones) so cosmetic usually don't make a diff either.
I can't believe some people spend so much for cosmetic options. Seems crazy to me, but if it pays for FTP games...and they have the cash, more power too them!
I havn't had the opportunity to play a true free to play game yet, nor do I really understand how they make a profit. Oh, I guess that is not true since Path of Exile is truely a FTP game (and a great one) although I have spent money on it to support the game.
My largest experience with FTP is dungeons and dragons online, and that I guess doesn't constitute as a true free to play game since so much content needs to be purchases (Classes, races, character slots, adventure packs etc).
I'm guessing a true free to play game is one where all content is literally free, and the only thing you pay for is cosmetics..or minor luxury items like extra bank space etc?
I'm all for NWO being like that, but it at least sounded like classes (and of course character slots) were going to need to be purchased. If that is not the case, then a subscription model wouldn't make any sense at all.
If you do need to buy content though, and it's not super cheap ($5 a char slot, $10 for a new class etc)...then a subscription might be a better option for some.
1. Full access can't be offered as some of the packs have already promised exclusive access.
2. There will probably still be a Zen and Astral Diamond shop and so additional spending could still tempt people.
3. Extra content would probably need to be provided in order to with hold it from non-subscribers.
4. Wizards and Crypic would both have to agree to it.
A key question will be how long has NO got before it has to be released?
If they have sold enough Hero of the North and Founder's Packs then delaying development, and performing a redesign or adding more content, becomes more probable.
A Prootwaddle is one of the weirder player-character races in "The Fantasy Trip", Steve Jackson's first published role-playing game.
Planetside 2's subscription model is my favourite implementation. You get +Exp, +Resources, early access to item shop cosmetics (and only this), and 500 Station Cash per month (which is $5 worth of cash). I'm not saying that Neverwinter should follow and have the same perks, but it doesn't affect anyone's gameplay. Sure you can unlock weapons with the Station Cash, but it's just a convenience for people who don't want to spend the time playing the game to unlock it and want it now.
Full access doesn't need to be promised since the terms of a subscription plan can be whatever both parties agree on. In this case charging $30 for 3 months of perks and $10 of zen per month for example. The perks can be whatever the player base decides they really want (perhaps even voted on in the boards etc).
The zen and Astral diamonds shops would actually be part of why people would subscribe, since you get Zen from a subscription (DDO does that already with turbine points so it's not new). The advantage to NWO would be that they know players are more likely to keep playing their game and keep paying either for the subscription or purchasing more zen in the future. Players would have just as much Zen (and possibly even more if they want to give a slight boost..say 1100 zen a month for $10 a month) as if they purchased it directly.
Extra content wouldn't really need to be provided, just extra perks. Two extra character slots, Movement speed boosts, Extra bank space/backpack space etc are all things that can be provided as perks. You could purchase them with zen (and will need to if you stop subscribing) but you can get it as a perk for subscribing as well. Gives people a chance to try out new characters before buying a slot for them etc.
As far as wizards and Cryptic agreeing to it...well that is true, but if it would make them more money, or keep more people (who are obviously willing to spend money) playing the game, I think it would be an easy sell. Not sure on the Wizards part though.
I don't know how many founders packs they have sold, or will sell. I'd imagine they have probably sold a majority of the packs they will sell at this point (since one of the key points is the whole beta access). They did state the founders packs will be updated once the betas are over to have other perks instead, so they may sell more later.
I'm guessing if they are making plenty of money the whole subscription thing will never even come up, unless of course the player base wants it. I think it could be a positive way to get people to buy more zen, and keep playing the game....but there is so much negative feeling about subscription plans at this point I doubt it will happen.
Woot!
Didn't know anyone had done that already, but that is almost exactly what I was suggesting. DDO is similar to that as well in many ways with the VIP plan (though it gives a ton more for actual new players). That is exactly what I was thinking would be good for NWO though. Didn't think of the +xp part, but I don't think i'd really like that to be honest. Leveling is already so fast early on at least and it seems like a pretty big advantage. The other parts though sound great.
Paying for certain specific customization things is fine, but equipment? That's a terrible idea. Guild Wars and Dota 2's model is far superior to the MMOs-who-were-sub-but-now-are-free-except-for-most-content-and-you-can-just-buy-equipment-to-completely-ruin-the-experience-for-everyone model that Sony invented and now forced into every one of their games.
These games make huge profits purely from selling cosmetics and convenience while offering all new content either for free or gained through gameplay.
DDO is not free to play, it's freemium: a premium game with a free demo.
All their new content has to be purchased and often at stupidly high rates.
That's the difference between free to play and premium and any game which has a subscription is premium. In the end if you aren't paying the premium you'll either be gouged or left in the dust. Optional premium plans are, in my experience, lacking in the optional department.
The only reason STO and other converted games are left in this in-between state is because there is No fair way to make premium games true free to play without alienating their original customer base.
Any in game benefit from subscription plans tend to be on the verge of pay to win, which makes sense in a premium game, but true free to play is something which, once experienced, is something that will always be better (and make more logical sense) than a premium subscription plan.
True. SUb based games are becoming obsolete, supported mainly by the hardcore fans of the franchize. Take Warhammer online, a good game, but not worth the 15 bucks they charge now, thou the few HC enthusiasts that remain loyal will probably go down together with the sinking ship. Not good for the business, especially for a fresh new name on the allready crammed market.
GW2 recipe is brilliant on the other hand, buy a box or a digital version of it, sell 2 million copies and you can cover the funding budget.
I think NO should follow the same path, buy once, play for ever. I don't quite get it, how will the developers of NO cover all the costs with the f2p system. How are going to pay the game? I'm not sure if there will be enough players willing to spend in the cash shop, to maintain all the costs. What if they don't succeed in their financial plan?
I think they should at least leave the option of B2p open, just in case. I would support that.
Buying the equipment (or in this case, weapons, which is the only thing you equip in the game) does not offer an advantage over other players because every weapon that is sold in the item shop is also obtainable without spending any money at all, and are all side-grades anyways. Cash shops are going to be about cosmetics and CONVENIENCE aka "spend real money to unlock this now" or "spend money to get more exp to help you unlock things quickly".
That is one of my concerns. I only played the game a bit, but it looks like a blast and something I'll be able to sink my teeth into.
I'm guessing that the creators want to make a profit though, and that the game will go poof if they do not (and don't keep making a profit for that matter).
Here is an example, I had a Yo-gart place open near me last summer. Seemed like a nice store and my wife loves frozen yogart, so I bought a whole bunch of gift cards for friends, and a ton for my household as well. I have $250 worth of gift card value left at this point, but he store closed a few months ago, so it was all wasted.
FTP seems simliar to me in that we can buy founders packs to support it, but what happens if nobody uses the cash shop and it doesn't make enough money? Does it fall on the few of us that are paying to spend enough to keep the game going? FTP seems to give the impression that you can play the whole game (or most of it) without spending any money, but at the same time seems to expect people to spend money to support it.
I don't have faith in people in general to spend money when they don't have to. Logically they should, but it just doesn't seem to work that way. Instead, I have the fear that a much smaller number of players will end up shouldering the burden of making NWO profitable. I don't think they will do it because they want cosmetic options etc, but instead because they like the game and want to see it succeed.
That is not fair to them though.
So a true free to play game that bases it's income only on "at will" donations (for minor cosmetic effects)...which honestly has to be considered a donation cause I really don't think anyone cares about cosmetics enough to shell out hundreds of dollars for them, needs to be able to support itself with a much smaller amount of income. Those of us that are responsible and realize without any money the game will go poof, will support the game, but I don't think that will be even near the majority.
If on the other hand NWO is more like Champions Online etc, where you have to pay for in game content (Freemium I guess you called it) then I can understand the setup and how the game will become profitable, but it leaves me worried about the cost of content since again, those that are actually purchasing in game content are going to be making up for all the other players who are not.
I can see various companions, backgrounds, costumes, and mounts added to the C-Store. Races and classes will always be free, but I could be proven wrong if the devs decide to make a particular race or class rare through C-Store purchases. The foundry pack already has weapons and armor in them so I can see equipment with a certain unique gimmick added to the C-Store.