2.) Those games with an optional subscription fee, which are not really free to play, but simply an extended free-trial without a level-cap or time-restriction. If you want to do the things you're eventually going to want to do, you're going to need to pay. Champions Online, DDO, Both Everquests, SWTOR are the games that follow this model, and they are neither growing nor dying. They are in MMO limbo.
There are ways to implement a subscription without doing that freemium <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that those games that you mentioned are doing. Just because those MMOs do it, it doesn't make it the norm. It can't be said enough how PLANETSIDE 2 has a good subscription model going for it that doesn't lock you from content if you don't pay. If NWO had a subscription model somewhat similar to Planetside 2, Cryptic would have my money.
No. I think the pure F2P model is the best way to level the paying field, if I may be excused the pun.
Instead of expecting casual part-time players who want what's behind the paywall to pay $15 a month when they're playing only a few hours, this model lets you make decisions about how and when you spend your money without losing access to anything. You can save up and get that account unlock you want, then not feel bad if you spend two months only playing 30 minutes a week. The folks who want every possible bank slot, companion, character slot, etc. pay for their own increased resources, and the more casual players just buy what they want. It's perfect, especially for people whose budget is more volatile.
The best part is you can make a small investment in a game to make a big improvement in your quality of play, that persists throughout your future play even if you never spend another dime.
It also means PWE can shift their focus and tweak the cost of items as they see how they impact the game. If a consumable turns out to be a game-breaker, just stop selling it, or nerf the new version, and nobody feels like they wasted a sub to get access to it; they bought the ones they needed, they get to use them, they're just not available in that form in the future.
As long as there is a continuous addition of things for free players to do, this model is the perfect balance between the needs of the customer and the needs of the developer. Some of us will end up spending more money this way, yes; but we'll walk into it with our eyes open; we won't be spending $15 a month for years just to keep racking up Veteran rewards in fear that we'll lose them if we take a break.
I just hope they change their other games to this model when it succeeds for them.
No. A F2P model with only cosmetic items as cash-shop exclusives is best in my opinion.
I always see this idea of a "cosmetic only" cash shop for these games, but it never seems to actually exist. Does anyone know of an MMO that truly offers ONLY cosmetic options in their cash shop? I don't.
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apocrs1980Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
GW2 offers quite a bit of cosmetics in thier shop but hey are a pay once and play for free game.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA Ravenloft Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
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edwardlMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
I always see this idea of a "cosmetic only" cash shop for these games, but it never seems to actually exist. Does anyone know of an MMO that truly offers ONLY cosmetic options in their cash shop? I don't.
League of Legends?
Though to be fair, LoL has no where near the production level invested as say Neverwinter, or any other standard MMO with a F2P
model.
The f2p format that Cryptic/PWE runs, or that Sony runs for PS2 is the ideal scenario for any f2p. It's not a pay to win, thank god, it's a pay for expedience.
You could go through the whole game without paying a dime, which would be a concept unheard of 10 years ago. Or, if you want to speed things along instead of grinding out unlocks for character slots etc, and to show some appreciation for the effort invested in the game (since even the people involved in the game have to pay bills), you could drop a few dollars on whatever unlocks you want.
There are some atrocious f2p formats out there, (SWTOR comes to mind) and thank god this wont be one of them.
If you want to 'sub' then why not just buy $15 worth of zen at the start of each month? Just a little self control, and there ya go. You get a sub, and buy content at that pace. I do think they would benefit from a special recurring zen purchase if they tossed in some bonus zen that increases with consective payments (more zen with consistancy).
Cheers!
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yellatrukMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 14Arc User
I'm glad the folks behind Neverwinter realize that's it's actually a bad idea to copy the business model of painful failures like SWTOR.
Well there are plenty still playing SWTOR and enough still subbing. It's not as dead or as bad as people make it out to be. Games with both, the subs so far have always been a great value where $15 of cash shop coins doesn't cover it the value of what the sub offers. That's how I've seen it, they purposely make it a value to sub. It's probably an easy $30 worth of cash shop coins, the thing is no matter how much you spend in the shop you can't get some of what the subs offer.
If you want to 'sub' then why not just buy $15 worth of zen at the start of each month? Just a little self control, and there ya go. You get a sub, and buy content at that pace. I do think they would benefit from a special recurring zen purchase if they tossed in some bonus zen that increases with consective payments (more zen with consistancy).
Cheers!
Neverwinter probably will be different. But SWOTR for example there are things you can do with a sub that isn't available with cash shop buys and you get at least $5 worth of coins free for each month sub. One could argue it costs $10 with rebate and you get things not available no matter how much you spend in the cash shop. Subs bring real value. $15 cash shop coins buys you fluff most of the time.
Again, I would too. I like 15 dollars a month getting me anything and everything the game has to offer, period.
As would I. I'm one of the biggest misers, cost/return ratio analyzer, all that. Subs bring great value and the sense I'm not being artificially held back, that in itself is nearly priceless anymore. I'm not sure I ever played a total FTP MMO for any length of time. So here's to NWO breaking the string...
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apocrs1980Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
A free to play game gets me out of an argument with my wife every month over the $15.00 that comes out of the bank account, plus allows me to create content for the game? I'm all for it! The idea is that they make more money with a F2P model with micro cosmetic transactions then they ever would sub based and are able to open the game up to a larger player base, more players = better community and allows for more content to be created all of this feeds into the idea of allowing Neverwinter to thrive for years to come. Personally I think Sub based models are going the way of cosset tapes and CD's.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
The Cragsteep Crypt - BETA Ravenloft Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
I've had a subscription to Champions Online for over 2 years now. It's a great game, but I'm ready for something new. I'd be willing to pay for a subscription to Neverwinter.
I always liked how Turbine did their VIP. Access to some extra races, classes, early access to content, monthly DDO Store allowance, extra char slots, ect ect. The only down side is that for those that want access to all content then they need to go VIP, at least for a bit until they gather the TP they need to buy the packs they want. Then again one can just buy the TP directly, VIP is just a lot less hassle.
As far as Neverwinter goes, I say that a sub should grant certain perks that were not advantageous in gameplay but nice commodities.
I always liked how Turbine did their VIP. Access to some extra races, classes, early access to content, monthly DDO Store allowance, extra char slots, ect ect. The only down side is that for those that want access to all content then they need to go VIP, at least for a bit until they gather the TP they need to buy the packs they want. Then again one can just buy the TP directly, VIP is just a lot less hassle.
As far as Neverwinter goes, I say that a sub should grant certain perks that were not advantageous in gameplay but nice commodities.
I'm a bit of an expert on turbines setup for DDO...since I've been there since the start and helped a bunch of FTP friends get started over the years.
The game really is totally free to play, and it doesn't even take that long to get set up. Much like NWO....DDO allows you to purchase cash shop items with currency you earn in game. Unlike NWO....it does not require someone else to pay for that currency (you directly earn TP by completing quests).
What is more, the system is currently set up to give one time TP bonuses as you reach certain favor levels on each server. That allows for new players to quickly get a decent amount of "cash shop currency" by just testing out the difference classes on each server (one character on each server initially).
To really "farm" TP fast though and get all the content, it's best to have a subscription plan since it gives you full access to everything, bonus character slots etc for every having spent money in the shop, and allows you to do quests right away on elite (fastest way to farm TP).
NWO has a different system though. You can't earn free "Zen"....but instead you can sell in game items to other players for zen (astral diamonds for zen basically). Someone else has to actually have spent money to buy that zen though...so it's not really free.
So in many ways, DDO is actually more of a FTP game then NWO is, or at least looks like it will be (Since we know at least character slots will cost money....either spent by you, or other players in exchange for your goods.
I have paid for VIP in DDO mainly because I want to support the game, and I usually find something worthwhile to spend the TP I get for it as well. From what I have seen NWO is going to be worth supporting as well, but it does not...at least right now, appear to be as FTP as DDO is.
You could eventually open up all the content in DDO over time...without ANYONE ever spending 1 cent to make it happen for you. You can open up most of the important content (primary quest chains etc) within a few months if you purchase a 3 month VIP subscription, and wait for sales before purchasing anything. So $30....and you can pretty easily have full access to DDO for life.
I hope NWO has a feature matrix similar to STO and CO. F2P is great and see how this is ideal for lots of gamers. however I would like a gold/VIP (or whatever you want to call it) option which gives me access to the content you would get from micro transactions in the F2P model. Ex: more character slots, monthly stipend to use in store, etc. I find it works well with both STO and CO and Gives us more than one choice.
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starkaosMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I could see VIP access being sold for $50 or spending a certain amount of money on the C-Store grants VIP access. However, there is no point to a subscription. STO and CO still have subscriptions because of their lifetime memberships and they would have been screwed over if everything went F2P.
I could see VIP access being sold for $50 or spending a certain amount of money on the C-Store grants VIP access. However, there is no point to a subscription. STO and CO still have subscriptions because of their lifetime memberships and they would have been screwed over if everything went F2P.
Good point. However, i suspect having more than one option, and not just micro transactions, to be an added value to many.
Wulfster42 is correct in what he writes about DDO and want to use his words to convey my feelings. Yes you can strategize and figure out a plan to get all that DDO offers for a solid one time price that could save you vs a SUB over a period of time. But for me $15 for solid game play per month is next to nothing and much cheaper than just one AAA title at $60 that last me a total of 15 hours (and I'm being kind).
That $15 allows me not to spend a lot of time figuring out Cash Shop content/feature angles. The $15 gives me total access to everything, so I can just play. I'm not against what Wulfster42 said at all, just that there is a convenience group of players out there that just wants everything easily. And the additional support part is a nice bonus back to them.
Swtor is pretty much the poster boy for how not to implement a F2P model.
Funny. I found saving $60 up front to find out if the game was enjoyable enough (it was) and then for the couple/few months I'll be in it, that $15 to unlock the game where I don't feel constrained. Seems all well enough to me. I prefer FTS. Free to Sub.
Wulfster42 is correct in what he writes about DDO and want to use his words to convey my feelings. Yes you can strategize and figure out a plan to get all that DDO offers for a solid one time price that could save you vs a SUB over a period of time. But for me $15 for solid game play per month is next to nothing and much cheaper than just one AAA title at $60 that last me a total of 15 hours (and I'm being kind).
That $15 allows me not to spend a lot of time figuring out Cash Shop content/feature angles. The $15 gives me total access to everything, so I can just play. I'm not against what Wulfster42 said at all, just that there is a convenience group of players out there that just wants everything easily. And the additional support part is a nice bonus back to them.
I've been paying $15 (now $10) dollars a month to turbine since DDO went live...so i'm all for supporting them. More players are good for any MMO though and even if you only spend $30 ever...it's still $30 more turbine would make then if you never played. In addition, with reincarnations, exp tomes etc, it's likely that a player who initially spends $30 to get full content and then plays for a year or more...is going to eventually buy optional stuff as well. I think DDO's system is great and hope the game keeps going strong for a very long time. I don't intend on stopping playing it ever...until forced to due to it closing.
I would love to have a good alternative MMO though and i'm hoping that NWO is going to be it:)
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wesgarMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I would DEFINITELY prefer a 'subscription' vs a micro transaction based method of monetizing the game.
it is unfortunate that companies have found that they can make 'more' by charging people who are willing to pay it, more to play it.
yet, we have created the beast, and now, must live with it.
Part of why I'd like a 'subscription' game - is because if I like a 'free to play' micro transaction based game - I am much more likely to 'spend more' than I would on a subscription based game.
so, yes, for me, subscription based, would actually mean a less expensive game.
That said, if I don't like it, or they get too 'money grabby', I'm quick to bail.
I would DEFINITELY prefer a 'subscription' vs a micro transaction based method of monetizing the game.
it is unfortunate that companies have found that they can make 'more' by charging people who are willing to pay it, more to play it.
yet, we have created the beast, and now, must live with it.
Part of why I'd like a 'subscription' game - is because if I like a 'free to play' micro transaction based game - I am much more likely to 'spend more' than I would on a subscription based game.
so, yes, for me, subscription based, would actually mean a less expensive game.
That said, if I don't like it, or they get too 'money grabby', I'm quick to bail.
Yeah, if I find myself spending too much on something, even if I enjoy it, I might stop. I have done that with other things in the past (not video games though). I never even tried those old $5 an hour AOL RPGs etc....looked like fun, but way too expensive for me.
I would rather pay $400 over 2 years then $200 up front. Both because I don't know if i'll enjoy a game for even 2 years, and second because I don't mind paying for something I am currently enjoying. If I pay $200 for something i'm enjoying....it better be worth the $200 when I pay for it...or i'll feel cheated.
Thats why I never purchased lifetime memberships even on games I have enjoyed in the past. It's not all about the bottom line, it's also about supporting a game that is continuing to entertain you. If I'm still playing and enjoying a game a year down the road, i'll be more then happy to spend the extra money instead of having gotten a deal all up front.
I've spent $1000+ on DDO..and I am happy to have done so (and plan on spending plenty more in the future. Heck, I spend $200 a month for our Satalite TV...and I probably watch maybe 10 hours of TV a week (my wife watches much more though). I have gotten FAR more entertainment out of DDO then I have from watching TV over the years and it's cost me less then 1/10th as much.
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wallace90Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 9Arc User
edited February 2013
I would rather a Sub than a cash shop. But many companies have learned that cash shops make a lot of money.
As long as they keep the Cash shop Cosmetic and not P2W, i'll be happy
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Normally i like subscribing better then spending money here and there but right now i'm more concerned with doing something with my degree in political science and getting a job that could allow me to pay it back...
I've been paying $15 (now $10) dollars a month to turbine since DDO went live...so i'm all for supporting them. More players are good for any MMO though and even if you only spend $30 ever...it's still $30 more turbine would make then if you never played. In addition, with reincarnations, exp tomes etc, it's likely that a player who initially spends $30 to get full content and then plays for a year or more...is going to eventually buy optional stuff as well. I think DDO's system is great and hope the game keeps going strong for a very long time. I don't intend on stopping playing it ever...until forced to due to it closing.
I would love to have a good alternative MMO though and i'm hoping that NWO is going to be it:)
Without a doubt resurrections is an amazing FTP offering. Max your character, pay us $15 or whatever it is, start over with a better character. Perfect for those always worrying about end game. End game is build a better, faster, stronger you.
Comments
There are ways to implement a subscription without doing that freemium <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that those games that you mentioned are doing. Just because those MMOs do it, it doesn't make it the norm. It can't be said enough how PLANETSIDE 2 has a good subscription model going for it that doesn't lock you from content if you don't pay. If NWO had a subscription model somewhat similar to Planetside 2, Cryptic would have my money.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Instead of expecting casual part-time players who want what's behind the paywall to pay $15 a month when they're playing only a few hours, this model lets you make decisions about how and when you spend your money without losing access to anything. You can save up and get that account unlock you want, then not feel bad if you spend two months only playing 30 minutes a week. The folks who want every possible bank slot, companion, character slot, etc. pay for their own increased resources, and the more casual players just buy what they want. It's perfect, especially for people whose budget is more volatile.
The best part is you can make a small investment in a game to make a big improvement in your quality of play, that persists throughout your future play even if you never spend another dime.
It also means PWE can shift their focus and tweak the cost of items as they see how they impact the game. If a consumable turns out to be a game-breaker, just stop selling it, or nerf the new version, and nobody feels like they wasted a sub to get access to it; they bought the ones they needed, they get to use them, they're just not available in that form in the future.
As long as there is a continuous addition of things for free players to do, this model is the perfect balance between the needs of the customer and the needs of the developer. Some of us will end up spending more money this way, yes; but we'll walk into it with our eyes open; we won't be spending $15 a month for years just to keep racking up Veteran rewards in fear that we'll lose them if we take a break.
I just hope they change their other games to this model when it succeeds for them.
Chapter One - A Construct's Prison: NW-DMSU8OJTV
Chapter Two - Raggyon: NW-DGIZVSQPU
I always see this idea of a "cosmetic only" cash shop for these games, but it never seems to actually exist. Does anyone know of an MMO that truly offers ONLY cosmetic options in their cash shop? I don't.
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
League of Legends?
Though to be fair, LoL has no where near the production level invested as say Neverwinter, or any other standard MMO with a F2P
model.
The f2p format that Cryptic/PWE runs, or that Sony runs for PS2 is the ideal scenario for any f2p. It's not a pay to win, thank god, it's a pay for expedience.
You could go through the whole game without paying a dime, which would be a concept unheard of 10 years ago. Or, if you want to speed things along instead of grinding out unlocks for character slots etc, and to show some appreciation for the effort invested in the game (since even the people involved in the game have to pay bills), you could drop a few dollars on whatever unlocks you want.
There are some atrocious f2p formats out there, (SWTOR comes to mind) and thank god this wont be one of them.
Cheers!
Awesome to find someone else with the EXACT same gaming rule as myself.
Well there are plenty still playing SWTOR and enough still subbing. It's not as dead or as bad as people make it out to be. Games with both, the subs so far have always been a great value where $15 of cash shop coins doesn't cover it the value of what the sub offers. That's how I've seen it, they purposely make it a value to sub. It's probably an easy $30 worth of cash shop coins, the thing is no matter how much you spend in the shop you can't get some of what the subs offer.
Neverwinter probably will be different. But SWOTR for example there are things you can do with a sub that isn't available with cash shop buys and you get at least $5 worth of coins free for each month sub. One could argue it costs $10 with rebate and you get things not available no matter how much you spend in the cash shop. Subs bring real value. $15 cash shop coins buys you fluff most of the time.
As would I. I'm one of the biggest misers, cost/return ratio analyzer, all that. Subs bring great value and the sense I'm not being artificially held back, that in itself is nearly priceless anymore. I'm not sure I ever played a total FTP MMO for any length of time. So here's to NWO breaking the string...
Ravenloft
Look for@Apocrs1980 or visit the main page here or Ravenloft here
I think those with large budgets by big names will still offer subs, because they can.
As far as Neverwinter goes, I say that a sub should grant certain perks that were not advantageous in gameplay but nice commodities.
I'm a bit of an expert on turbines setup for DDO...since I've been there since the start and helped a bunch of FTP friends get started over the years.
The game really is totally free to play, and it doesn't even take that long to get set up. Much like NWO....DDO allows you to purchase cash shop items with currency you earn in game. Unlike NWO....it does not require someone else to pay for that currency (you directly earn TP by completing quests).
What is more, the system is currently set up to give one time TP bonuses as you reach certain favor levels on each server. That allows for new players to quickly get a decent amount of "cash shop currency" by just testing out the difference classes on each server (one character on each server initially).
To really "farm" TP fast though and get all the content, it's best to have a subscription plan since it gives you full access to everything, bonus character slots etc for every having spent money in the shop, and allows you to do quests right away on elite (fastest way to farm TP).
NWO has a different system though. You can't earn free "Zen"....but instead you can sell in game items to other players for zen (astral diamonds for zen basically). Someone else has to actually have spent money to buy that zen though...so it's not really free.
So in many ways, DDO is actually more of a FTP game then NWO is, or at least looks like it will be (Since we know at least character slots will cost money....either spent by you, or other players in exchange for your goods.
I have paid for VIP in DDO mainly because I want to support the game, and I usually find something worthwhile to spend the TP I get for it as well. From what I have seen NWO is going to be worth supporting as well, but it does not...at least right now, appear to be as FTP as DDO is.
You could eventually open up all the content in DDO over time...without ANYONE ever spending 1 cent to make it happen for you. You can open up most of the important content (primary quest chains etc) within a few months if you purchase a 3 month VIP subscription, and wait for sales before purchasing anything. So $30....and you can pretty easily have full access to DDO for life.
Good point. However, i suspect having more than one option, and not just micro transactions, to be an added value to many.
That $15 allows me not to spend a lot of time figuring out Cash Shop content/feature angles. The $15 gives me total access to everything, so I can just play. I'm not against what Wulfster42 said at all, just that there is a convenience group of players out there that just wants everything easily. And the additional support part is a nice bonus back to them.
Funny. I found saving $60 up front to find out if the game was enjoyable enough (it was) and then for the couple/few months I'll be in it, that $15 to unlock the game where I don't feel constrained. Seems all well enough to me. I prefer FTS. Free to Sub.
I've been paying $15 (now $10) dollars a month to turbine since DDO went live...so i'm all for supporting them. More players are good for any MMO though and even if you only spend $30 ever...it's still $30 more turbine would make then if you never played. In addition, with reincarnations, exp tomes etc, it's likely that a player who initially spends $30 to get full content and then plays for a year or more...is going to eventually buy optional stuff as well. I think DDO's system is great and hope the game keeps going strong for a very long time. I don't intend on stopping playing it ever...until forced to due to it closing.
I would love to have a good alternative MMO though and i'm hoping that NWO is going to be it:)
it is unfortunate that companies have found that they can make 'more' by charging people who are willing to pay it, more to play it.
yet, we have created the beast, and now, must live with it.
Part of why I'd like a 'subscription' game - is because if I like a 'free to play' micro transaction based game - I am much more likely to 'spend more' than I would on a subscription based game.
so, yes, for me, subscription based, would actually mean a less expensive game.
That said, if I don't like it, or they get too 'money grabby', I'm quick to bail.
zWolf / Wesgar
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Yeah, if I find myself spending too much on something, even if I enjoy it, I might stop. I have done that with other things in the past (not video games though). I never even tried those old $5 an hour AOL RPGs etc....looked like fun, but way too expensive for me.
I would rather pay $400 over 2 years then $200 up front. Both because I don't know if i'll enjoy a game for even 2 years, and second because I don't mind paying for something I am currently enjoying. If I pay $200 for something i'm enjoying....it better be worth the $200 when I pay for it...or i'll feel cheated.
Thats why I never purchased lifetime memberships even on games I have enjoyed in the past. It's not all about the bottom line, it's also about supporting a game that is continuing to entertain you. If I'm still playing and enjoying a game a year down the road, i'll be more then happy to spend the extra money instead of having gotten a deal all up front.
I've spent $1000+ on DDO..and I am happy to have done so (and plan on spending plenty more in the future. Heck, I spend $200 a month for our Satalite TV...and I probably watch maybe 10 hours of TV a week (my wife watches much more though). I have gotten FAR more entertainment out of DDO then I have from watching TV over the years and it's cost me less then 1/10th as much.
As long as they keep the Cash shop Cosmetic and not P2W, i'll be happy
Austerity measures are totally working :mad:
Without a doubt resurrections is an amazing FTP offering. Max your character, pay us $15 or whatever it is, start over with a better character. Perfect for those always worrying about end game. End game is build a better, faster, stronger you.