they also should implament where if u roll need on a BoE items in binds to that char so u won't get ninja's rolling need on every boe to sell in AH that can also make ppl rage quit because i have seen it on mmo's a boe drops that some1 can use and this lone char just rolls need cause he sees $$$$ in his mind
xavierlionfang85: Don't think for a second that ninjas won't roll just because they can't get big money from it. Some money, even pocket change from NPC vendors, is enough incentive.
Frankly, I'd rather let ninjas sell their loot on the AH. At least that way, the item has a chance to go to a character who could actually use it.
____________________
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
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ashrox10Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
There are many reasons why you would want a piece of item which isnt compatible with your class.
First of which being the rewards of dismantling such an item for a crafting system. Or if the party doesnt have the class for which the item is associated, then you would want to at least vendor it, or at most give to another guild member that can use it, if BoE, or simply just to sell on an auction house.
As jedideathfreak823 stated, this is in no way a reason for using the NEED button. The need-button is intended for those that qualify, AND get a percieved stat-boost. I always pick greed unless the item improves my stats. But many casuals, ninjas, and such dont care about fair-play in MMO's.
So I would also like to be able to check the statistics of a players N/G/P, sorted according to usage in dungeons: Total, on the same character level, etc. This so I can see both if it is a helpfull player, and also if the player is fair when it costs something.
Oh, and I second the greyed-out option presented earlier in the thread. Or some mechanic similar to it.
So I would also like to be able to check the statistics of a players N/G/P, sorted according to usage in dungeons: Total, on the same character level, etc. This so I can see both if it is a helpfull player, and also if the player is fair when it costs something.
How many layers can you pile on until it's "fixed," without breaking something else? For instance, the more you limit "need," the harder you make it for characters to gear for off-roles, and the less flexibility players have for each character. Granted, it looks like this game is going with hard, limited, class-defined roles - but if the developers ever decide to allow some multiclass-like system, or even multiple "builds" within a class, mechanically confining "need" rolls to a very narrow range will make it that much more difficult to branch out. Your character will be railroaded into a particular role for life, or will have to play sub-optimally (and deal with the rage that goes with it) in order to gear up for a different role.
Not only that, but if you're going to pile on limits, why not just kill N/G/P outright and go with individually tailored loot drops? Apparently we already have that sort of thing with the final chests at the end of quests - why not make it a general rule? If a trash mob drops tasty loot, and your character snags it (via round robin or random distribution or even a "roll/pass" system), the loot's actual stats are determined by your character type. Boom, done, everyone's happy and nobody's a ninja.
Personally, I'd rather drops were just crafting materials or vendor tokens that get distributed more or less evenly. Make your own stuff, buy it from specialized vendors, or sell it on the AH. That would be much more equitable, reliable, and optimal than any flavor of N/G/P.
So? If more people comment on it then we can make it clear to the devs that it's the loot system most players want in the game.
You made it sound like the whole thing was your idea, when it had already been suggested by other people in the thread. That is what I was saying. I wasn't saying don't support other ideas and don't talk about what you want.
I have never test this system but I hate it already as it is. I play game where the loot is randmonly given to player or player based.
As this game is not free pvp with lootable body (let's say every one like it), then wouldn't it be better to allow the group leader decide the way the group devide the loot before the quest begin? (even share, random, leader divides...). The game will enforce after this way you know before going the way the loot will be allocate and not hoping that people will pass on there interest.
I think I will click need if I need it for one of my other character or if the item is worth lots on the trading post, I think it is fair enough. Greed would be for worthless, in my perception, item. You think of fair-play, but you don't know exactly what people need or not. I have play on NWN sever and lot of player paly theives to steal from other player that's the game (though they complain when they got butchered which was t he game too).
So I am against a system that limit need based on character class, unless it is an optional among other loot dividing system.
xavierlionfang85: Don't think for a second that ninjas won't roll just because they can't get big money from it. Some money, even pocket change from NPC vendors, is enough incentive.
Frankly, I'd rather let ninjas sell their loot on the AH. At least that way, the item has a chance to go to a character who could actually use it.
Forget pocket change, some people will Need just to make it so someone else won't get it (to win) and destroy it later if it can't be sold
I think I will click need if I need it for one of my other character or if the item is worth lots on the trading post, I think it is fair enough.
You are part of the problem. This kind of attitude is what is turning the world to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right now. "Well if "everyone" else is going to cheat, break the law and be a general <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I guess I should too." When in reality is a very small number of people being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> it just seems like a lot because people remember the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and forget the nice people. This is evidenced by people who spend their whole life in the public eye being good people, but do one stupid thing and that is all they are remembered for.
Therealted: there are many ifs in your post. While I do generally agree with you point all through the post. There is an incentive in seeing a good item and not getting it. However, we dont know how items work yet. What is seen in the vids are that the items are unidentified, and only what class can use them is apparent. Thus allowing need for an item that your class cannot use seems to invite ninja-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I personally dislike managing ingredients, crafting, and such mini-games. But the main point is limiting those that are egotistic from ruining the game-experience. Thus, whatever system works best for that end, I will accept the down-sides.
As this game is not free pvp with lootable body (let's say every one like it), then wouldn't it be better to allow the group leader decide the way the group devide the loot before the quest begin? (even share, random, leader divides...). The game will enforce after this way you know before going the way the loot will be allocate and not hoping that people will pass on there interest.
This system is already in place in the game. There are multiple loot systems available and the group leader can decide which is used, party leader distributes all loot, round robin distribution or need/greed/pass. I'm unclear how or if this group leader decision system works for dungeon PUGs which are queued.
Random allocation : this is equal as every body put needs
Random allocation but no redraw : this is fairer because some that got an item wont have one before the other have it.
Every one has a loot : well this make the game a loot fest
DD way : the loot is divided at the end of the quest, each item is given a point value and each character have an even share of the total point value. Then in turn (order can be random or not) they took one item until there share is finish. Odd point will serve for the division of the gold or be resolved through greed but based on the point remaining for each character.
Greed only : get rid of item loot and give only gold. The item would be sold.
You are part of the problem. This kind of attitude is what is turning the world to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right now. "Well if "everyone" else is going to cheat, break the law and be a general <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I guess I should too." When in reality is a very small number of people being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> it just seems like a lot because people remember the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and forget the nice people. This is evidenced who spend their whole life in the public eye being good people, but do one stupid thing and that is all they are remembered for.
That "very small number" has been sufficient in my experience to ensure that I never get loot if I play nice. When the game mechanics reward the "greedy" and punish people who abide by the rules of common decency, there's a problem - either with the mechanics, or with the social consensus, or both.
I find it ironic that if everyone decided that rolling "need" on everything was legit, the N/G/P system would be substantially more equitable than it is now (or, at least, than what I've experienced). And, yet, people won't challenge their own view of what's "decent" (specifically the real outcome, seeing only how it "should" work) and simultaneously won't fundamentally question N/G/P.
People would seemingly rather layer band-aid on top of band-aid to fix things - without realizing that in doing so, they're making things more complicated than they really need to be.
____________________
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
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nemesis788450Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
the real issue is that everything is class specific - dumb as hell, once 10 or more classes are in, its going to be one big mess with tons of useless items
Actually, after having gear poached in SWTOR by people constantly needing on everything, I began to just instruct the whole party at the beginning of the quest to Need on everything. When they would ask "WHY" I simply told them that in my experience there would be some butthat who would anyway and by everyone doing it the loot distribution became fair, we could swap at the end.(You had until the end of the adventure to trade if I remember correctly).
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There are many reasons why you would want a piece of item which isnt compatible with your class.
First of which being the rewards of dismantling such an item for a crafting system. Or if the party doesnt have the class for which the item is associated, then you would want to at least vendor it, or at most give to another guild member that can use it, if BoE, or simply just to sell on an auction house.
Exactly- greed reasons. Which is why greed would still be available for everyone.
What though, is the point of having gear that is all class specific- if you're going to let anyone roll need for everything anyway? And this is something that would be excessively easy to fix too.
Just put the need/greed system on the same item trigger system as the 'can only be used by class x' mechanic- so that whenever any rogue gear pops up, only rogues can equip AND roll need on it, etc...
It's already stupid enough that gear is class specific- but if you're going to go that route, make it so those who can USE the gear are the only ones who can NEED it. Someone wants it to disassemble, alt, sell? GREED.
End of story- the person who healed your group as a DC deserves the loot that is DC specific, it's that simple, and it's a system that all decent players already use and prefer.
The only people who benefit from the current system are ninjas and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>- why exactly are we putting their needs before those of the majority of decent people?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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thruddlesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 11Arc User
Still think we need the option to be an evil son-of-a-balor and roll need just cuz.
Don't get me wrong, I had a ton of loot stolen from me over the years in WoW and SWTOR etc but at the end of the day I still like the mechanic even if an evil little wizard can steal my super awesome daggers I've been grinding for all month.
That "very small number" has been sufficient in my experience to ensure that I never get loot if I play nice. When the game mechanics reward the "greedy" and punish people who abide by the rules of common decency, there's a problem - either with the mechanics, or with the social consensus, or both.
I find it ironic that if everyone decided that rolling "need" on everything was legit, the N/G/P system would be substantially more equitable than it is now (or, at least, than what I've experienced). And, yet, people won't challenge their own view of what's "decent" (specifically the real outcome, seeing only how it "should" work) and simultaneously won't fundamentally question N/G/P.
People would seemingly rather layer band-aid on top of band-aid to fix things - without realizing that in doing so, they're making things more complicated than they really need to be.
You prove my point. Of course everyone should compromise their morals to get ahead. I stick to my values and get loot I want in every game I have ever played. You must have the worst luck imaginable.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I completely agree that the Need feature should be grey'd out for those whose class it is not for.
I would also love to see an adjustable group menu where the leader can adjust "loot" settings, before grouping people, allowing everyone to see the settings when the group is established. Early on the grey feature would be highly welcomed by all, but later on would become tedious where farmed loot more than likely is not needed by all. So a group could run "Greed" runs, where all loot is just randomed automatically, or allow custom loot to NOT grey out items, ect.
There is so much that could be done to the loot system with a few tweeks to accommodate everyone. Everything else in the game is highly customizeable, why not the loot system ???
I completely agree that the Need feature should be grey'd out for those whose class it is not for.
^This completely (also agree with your idea for various other loot settings to be set and seen by all members before entering dungeon).
Would also like to see (as stated in my first post in this thread) all chests be able to be opened by all members of the party, not just the first guy (same as how it works for the end of dungeon reward chests), and those chests giving loot at random to each member...so that one guy can't run ahead and ninjaloot every single chest in the dungeon.
You prove my point. Of course everyone should compromise their morals to get ahead. I stick to my values and get loot I want in every game I have ever played. You must have the worst luck imaginable.
You must have the best luck imaginable. Or maybe you don't PUG or LFD regularly. For me, rolling "greed" is virtually identical with rolling "pass," simply because there's almost always someone somewhere who rolls "need." (Weird sidenote - people have actually gotten angry with me for passing on class-specific gear, even when it wasn't an upgrade for me...)
Again, "morality" is more flexible than people would like to think. If the decent thing to do directly conflicts with how the world (or game) works, if it consistently results in suboptimal distribution, then really, how decent can it be? How reasonable is it to try to force it to work, or deny explicitly or implicitly that it doesn't work for others?
I'm all for changing the mechanics to result in fairer distribution (because, let's face it, human nature won't change), but I don't think burying the N/G/P system in fixes and patches is the way to do it.
Should not allow "need" unless equipment is character appropriate.
And if they already have that item. Once in the MMO which shall not be named my guild spent 10 hours farming a dungeon for a specific polearm only to have it needed and won by a hunter WHOM ALREADY HAD IT.
And if they already have that item. Once in the MMO which shall not be named my guild spent 10 hours farming a dungeon for a specific polearm only to have it needed and won by a hunter WHOM ALREADY HAD IT.
If they already have the item then they can roll "pass". If someone did that then just put him on ignore. The point of having the "need" button being class-specific and only appearing when person is that class is to minimise the douchebaggery...nothing we can do will completely eliminate this sort of person from the internet.
If they already have the item then they can roll "pass". If someone did that then just put him on ignore. The point of having the "need" button being class-specific and only appearing when person is that class is to minimise the douchebaggery...nothing we can do will completely eliminate this sort of person from the internet.
I completely agree.
But I think Jay and Silent Bob had it right.
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gilly44Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited February 2013
My question is, does the loot options have a Free for all option so we don't have to click the need or greed thing?
I always play MMO's with a friend of mine and she doesn't like the need/greed pop up, she would rather I loot, and help her pick items that are better than she currently has ( she doesn't care for number crunching on gear and so on )
So hopefully there is a free for all and we can just trade goodies back and forth til we have the gear we need.
My question is, does the loot options have a Free for all option so we don't have to click the need or greed thing?
I always play MMO's with a friend of mine and she doesn't like the need/greed pop up, she would rather I loot, and help her pick items that are better than she currently has ( she doesn't care for number crunching on gear and so on )
So hopefully there is a free for all and we can just trade goodies back and forth til we have the gear we need.
In a group, the closest you're going to get is Round Robin, setting the loot threshold as high as it will go.
City of Heroes did it best imo. Every character got a random roll after every defeat and any items they won appeared in their inventory directly (unless it was full when we got nothing but we knew that was our fault for not managing it). Occasionally on teams players would say "anyone want this such-and-such" and if someone wanted it the player just had to drag and drop onto the player that wanted it. There was never any stress about items and we never had discussions on the forums about "fix the loot system".
Though we still had "rng broken?" threads.
I would also love to see an adjustable group menu where the leader can adjust "loot" settings, before grouping people, allowing everyone to see the settings when the group is established. Early on the grey feature would be highly welcomed by all, but later on would become tedious where farmed loot more than likely is not needed by all. So a group could run "Greed" runs, where all loot is just randomed automatically, or allow custom loot to NOT grey out items, ect.
What you're asking for here, is the essence of n/g/p. If you NEED it, you roll need. Otherwise you greed, or pass if you just don't want to deal the the inventory. So what would be the point in adding extra needless code, to do something that you already can do?
The core, and only real, complaint about n/g/p, has to do with people, and not with the system in place. It's people that hit need when they can't use it or don't need it, which isn't the fault of the system in place or the developer who put it there.
Comments
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Frankly, I'd rather let ninjas sell their loot on the AH. At least that way, the item has a chance to go to a character who could actually use it.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Basically this.
PvE Enthusiast.
As jedideathfreak823 stated, this is in no way a reason for using the NEED button. The need-button is intended for those that qualify, AND get a percieved stat-boost. I always pick greed unless the item improves my stats. But many casuals, ninjas, and such dont care about fair-play in MMO's.
So I would also like to be able to check the statistics of a players N/G/P, sorted according to usage in dungeons: Total, on the same character level, etc. This so I can see both if it is a helpfull player, and also if the player is fair when it costs something.
Oh, and I second the greyed-out option presented earlier in the thread. Or some mechanic similar to it.
Not only that, but if you're going to pile on limits, why not just kill N/G/P outright and go with individually tailored loot drops? Apparently we already have that sort of thing with the final chests at the end of quests - why not make it a general rule? If a trash mob drops tasty loot, and your character snags it (via round robin or random distribution or even a "roll/pass" system), the loot's actual stats are determined by your character type. Boom, done, everyone's happy and nobody's a ninja.
Personally, I'd rather drops were just crafting materials or vendor tokens that get distributed more or less evenly. Make your own stuff, buy it from specialized vendors, or sell it on the AH. That would be much more equitable, reliable, and optimal than any flavor of N/G/P.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
You made it sound like the whole thing was your idea, when it had already been suggested by other people in the thread. That is what I was saying. I wasn't saying don't support other ideas and don't talk about what you want.
As this game is not free pvp with lootable body (let's say every one like it), then wouldn't it be better to allow the group leader decide the way the group devide the loot before the quest begin? (even share, random, leader divides...). The game will enforce after this way you know before going the way the loot will be allocate and not hoping that people will pass on there interest.
I think I will click need if I need it for one of my other character or if the item is worth lots on the trading post, I think it is fair enough. Greed would be for worthless, in my perception, item. You think of fair-play, but you don't know exactly what people need or not. I have play on NWN sever and lot of player paly theives to steal from other player that's the game (though they complain when they got butchered which was t he game too).
So I am against a system that limit need based on character class, unless it is an optional among other loot dividing system.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
Forget pocket change, some people will Need just to make it so someone else won't get it (to win) and destroy it later if it can't be sold
You are part of the problem. This kind of attitude is what is turning the world to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> right now. "Well if "everyone" else is going to cheat, break the law and be a general <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> I guess I should too." When in reality is a very small number of people being <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> it just seems like a lot because people remember the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and forget the nice people. This is evidenced by people who spend their whole life in the public eye being good people, but do one stupid thing and that is all they are remembered for.
I personally dislike managing ingredients, crafting, and such mini-games. But the main point is limiting those that are egotistic from ruining the game-experience. Thus, whatever system works best for that end, I will accept the down-sides.
This system is already in place in the game. There are multiple loot systems available and the group leader can decide which is used, party leader distributes all loot, round robin distribution or need/greed/pass. I'm unclear how or if this group leader decision system works for dungeon PUGs which are queued.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
Random allocation but no redraw : this is fairer because some that got an item wont have one before the other have it.
Every one has a loot : well this make the game a loot fest
DD way : the loot is divided at the end of the quest, each item is given a point value and each character have an even share of the total point value. Then in turn (order can be random or not) they took one item until there share is finish. Odd point will serve for the division of the gold or be resolved through greed but based on the point remaining for each character.
Greed only : get rid of item loot and give only gold. The item would be sold.
Skanvak Drakken
http://lamaisondesdrakkens.clan-box.com/index.php
I find it ironic that if everyone decided that rolling "need" on everything was legit, the N/G/P system would be substantially more equitable than it is now (or, at least, than what I've experienced). And, yet, people won't challenge their own view of what's "decent" (specifically the real outcome, seeing only how it "should" work) and simultaneously won't fundamentally question N/G/P.
People would seemingly rather layer band-aid on top of band-aid to fix things - without realizing that in doing so, they're making things more complicated than they really need to be.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Exactly- greed reasons. Which is why greed would still be available for everyone.
What though, is the point of having gear that is all class specific- if you're going to let anyone roll need for everything anyway? And this is something that would be excessively easy to fix too.
Just put the need/greed system on the same item trigger system as the 'can only be used by class x' mechanic- so that whenever any rogue gear pops up, only rogues can equip AND roll need on it, etc...
It's already stupid enough that gear is class specific- but if you're going to go that route, make it so those who can USE the gear are the only ones who can NEED it. Someone wants it to disassemble, alt, sell? GREED.
End of story- the person who healed your group as a DC deserves the loot that is DC specific, it's that simple, and it's a system that all decent players already use and prefer.
The only people who benefit from the current system are ninjas and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>- why exactly are we putting their needs before those of the majority of decent people?
100% agree
Don't get me wrong, I had a ton of loot stolen from me over the years in WoW and SWTOR etc but at the end of the day I still like the mechanic even if an evil little wizard can steal my super awesome daggers I've been grinding for all month.
You prove my point. Of course everyone should compromise their morals to get ahead.
I would also love to see an adjustable group menu where the leader can adjust "loot" settings, before grouping people, allowing everyone to see the settings when the group is established. Early on the grey feature would be highly welcomed by all, but later on would become tedious where farmed loot more than likely is not needed by all. So a group could run "Greed" runs, where all loot is just randomed automatically, or allow custom loot to NOT grey out items, ect.
There is so much that could be done to the loot system with a few tweeks to accommodate everyone. Everything else in the game is highly customizeable, why not the loot system ???
^This completely (also agree with your idea for various other loot settings to be set and seen by all members before entering dungeon).
Would also like to see (as stated in my first post in this thread) all chests be able to be opened by all members of the party, not just the first guy (same as how it works for the end of dungeon reward chests), and those chests giving loot at random to each member...so that one guy can't run ahead and ninjaloot every single chest in the dungeon.
Again, "morality" is more flexible than people would like to think. If the decent thing to do directly conflicts with how the world (or game) works, if it consistently results in suboptimal distribution, then really, how decent can it be? How reasonable is it to try to force it to work, or deny explicitly or implicitly that it doesn't work for others?
I'm all for changing the mechanics to result in fairer distribution (because, let's face it, human nature won't change), but I don't think burying the N/G/P system in fixes and patches is the way to do it.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
If they already have the item then they can roll "pass". If someone did that then just put him on ignore. The point of having the "need" button being class-specific and only appearing when person is that class is to minimise the douchebaggery...nothing we can do will completely eliminate this sort of person from the internet.
I completely agree.
But I think Jay and Silent Bob had it right.
I always play MMO's with a friend of mine and she doesn't like the need/greed pop up, she would rather I loot, and help her pick items that are better than she currently has ( she doesn't care for number crunching on gear and so on )
So hopefully there is a free for all and we can just trade goodies back and forth til we have the gear we need.
In a group, the closest you're going to get is Round Robin, setting the loot threshold as high as it will go.
Though we still had "rng broken?" threads.
What you're asking for here, is the essence of n/g/p. If you NEED it, you roll need. Otherwise you greed, or pass if you just don't want to deal the the inventory. So what would be the point in adding extra needless code, to do something that you already can do?
The core, and only real, complaint about n/g/p, has to do with people, and not with the system in place. It's people that hit need when they can't use it or don't need it, which isn't the fault of the system in place or the developer who put it there.