The core, and only real, complaint about n/g/p, has to do with people, and not with the system in place. It's people that hit need when they can't use it or don't need it, which isn't the fault of the system in place or the developer who put it there.
You can't fix people. Period.
However, it is possible to create systems that don't pit people against each other, while distributing loot fairly and optimally (with varying degrees of short-term efficiency). My "real complaint" about N/G/P is that it is only fair and optimal when people play nice - which, obviously, people don't do, othewise these discussions wouldn't exist.
Once you accept people's HAMSTER-hattery as a fact (you don't have to like it; you just have to know that it will happen), you can design a system that makes that HAMSTER-hattery less of a factor. I can say this with confidence because it's been done, and it works. Whether it's individual loot rolls per CoH (as klaw10 mentioned), or round-robin, or "loot" being crafting mats or tokens that can be traded and sold... there's no shortage of ways to ensure optimality and reduce (or outright remove) pointless inter-player rivalry.
Optimal or near-optimal distribution should be the goal of any loot reward system, IMO. It doesn't have to be easy, direct, or timely, but in the long run it should allow people to gear up at about the same rate for the same contribution. N/G/P mechanically does not allow that optimality except in contrived circumstances (i.e., when all players involved make the decision to play nice).
However, it is possible to create systems that don't pit people against each other, while distributing loot fairly and optimally (with varying degrees of short-term efficiency). My "real complaint" about N/G/P is that it is only fair and optimal when people play nice - which, obviously, people don't do, othewise these discussions wouldn't exist....
If I had just one wish for this game, it would be that the developers saw this matter the same way you did.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
What you're asking for here, is the essence of n/g/p. If you NEED it, you roll need. Otherwise you greed, or pass if you just don't want to deal the the inventory. So what would be the point in adding extra needless code, to do something that you already can do?
The core, and only real, complaint about n/g/p, has to do with people, and not with the system in place. It's people that hit need when they can't use it or don't need it, which isn't the fault of the system in place or the developer who put it there.
If u have played in any MMO's then u know that is not what I'm asking for. As you can clearly see by others posting here as well, it's a system that is flawed by those constantly hitting "NEED" for every item that drops. n/g/p is a good start to a loot system, but becomes useless in many mmo's due to player greed. so once again, a little coding as u suggest, can fix that. There is nothing wrong with asking for a more customizeable loot system. u can customize everything else in the game, why not the most vital part of any MMO ?? the loot system.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
edited February 2013
The Need/Greed/Pass system works rather well if the following conditions are met:
1 - There is an option that prevents to need items you cannot use/equip. (that is, your character must meet certain requirements to be able to press need for an item.)
2 - People in the party don't say stupid things like "oh, all greed on this" on stuff like tokens to purchase gear or consumables that everyone can use. Everyone should NEED on this if they want it, and greed only if they don't, not the other way around, lol.
If I had just one wish for this game, it would be that the developers saw this matter the same way you did.
Unfortunately, it's in the developers' interests to keep loot distribution sub-optimal, because it means people play longer and re-run content more often. Personally, I think that's why N/G/P persists, but maybe I just need a new tinfoil hat.
However, it is possible to create systems that don't pit people against each other, while distributing loot fairly and optimally (with varying degrees of short-term efficiency). My "real complaint" about N/G/P is that it is only fair and optimal when people play nice - which, obviously, people don't do, othewise these discussions wouldn't exist.
Once you accept people's HAMSTER-hattery as a fact (you don't have to like it; you just have to know that it will happen), you can design a system that makes that HAMSTER-hattery less of a factor. I can say this with confidence because it's been done, and it works. Whether it's individual loot rolls per CoH (as klaw10 mentioned), or round-robin, or "loot" being crafting mats or tokens that can be traded and sold... there's no shortage of ways to ensure optimality and reduce (or outright remove) pointless inter-player rivalry.
Optimal or near-optimal distribution should be the goal of any loot reward system, IMO. It doesn't have to be easy, direct, or timely, but in the long run it should allow people to gear up at about the same rate for the same contribution. N/G/P mechanically does not allow that optimality except in contrived circumstances (i.e., when all players involved make the decision to play nice).
Unfortunately, it's in the developers' interests to keep loot distribution sub-optimal, because it means people play longer and re-run content more often. Personally, I think that's why N/G/P persists, but maybe I just need a new tinfoil hat.
Drats... And here I thought happy players play longer. :-)
Hate round robin. I would rather take my chances with pugs rolling on a item I want once in awhile in a n/g/p system then be subjected to this. This is why. Lets say I am looking for a BoA piece of loot. I am with 4 of my friends and we all are good about loot. Now I have to rely on that rare drop actually dropping and I have to be lucky enough that it actually goes to me randomly. Where as in a n/g/p system, the first time it drops, I get it. This is even worse than being with a group of pugs and a piece of loot dropping and having to fight with the n/g/p system. At least there is a reasonable chance that at least one of the random pugs in my group will hit greed and not need and that makes my chances of getting the loot better than a round robin system on any given drop.
or "loot" being crafting mats or tokens that can be traded and sold... there's no shortage of ways to ensure optimality and reduce (or outright remove) pointless inter-player rivalry.
Crafting mats/tokens being the most likely that everyone gets what they want is a decent system, but it just "feels" boring to me. I want to get a sword or a ring or whatever right off the thing I killed and then I can remember that kill and have a story and memory associated with it.
Optimal or near-optimal distribution should be the goal of any loot reward system, IMO. It doesn't have to be easy, direct, or timely, but in the long run it should allow people to gear up at about the same rate for the same contribution. N/G/P mechanically does not allow that optimality except in contrived circumstances (i.e., when all players involved make the decision to play nice).
The problem is everyone has their own ideas of what an "Optimal or near-optimal distribution" system is, so it is not like it can actually be achieved.
Now this being said, is there a better way to distribute loot than n/g/p? Most likely but other than the CoH system, Claw10 brought up (which has potential economy problems) I haven't seen one listed IMO. I think the best way would to be to make a bunch (4 or 5 ) of systems and let the group leader choose or the group vote when it forms through a UI click box vote.
A Decent system but it puts a lot more loot into the game which can be an issue. Of all the systems here though it is the most appealing to me.
Loot quantity is a real easy fix - simply adjust the per-character chance of loot so that the sum total of loot dropped across all characters is the same, on average, as for the "normal" system. If P is the normal chance of a loot drop from a particular mob, then the chance of individual loot is just P/N, where N is the number of people in the party.
The problem is everyone has their own ideas of what an "Optimal or near-optimal distribution" system is, so it is not like it can actually be achieved.
I've defined what I mean by it, i.e., reliably similar useful rewards for similar contribution (in as much as you can measure "contribution"). I'd be interested in hearing other definitions.
I think the best way would to be to make a bunch (4 or 5 ) of systems and let the group leader choose or the group vote when it forms through a UI click box vote.
Works for me. Problem is, people will tend to go with the default (which right now apparently is N/G/P). In addition, I'd go a step further and make it a checkable option in whatever sort of LFG tools we're gonna get.
In addition, I'd go a step further and make it a checkable option in whatever sort of LFG tools we're gonna get.
Yeah that is a good idea too. I am all for options.
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zurjekMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 14Arc User
edited February 2013
To help emphasize the action combat and streamline the looting a little more I think it would be nice if it was more automatic. If it's material or items that your character can use the system would automatically have you need it, otherwise the system would automatically greed it. If you win the item you can loot or pass. If passed the next player to win would get the choice to loot or pass until someone loots it (which would be announced to all players in the party).
To help emphasize the action combat and streamline the looting a little more I think it would be nice if it was more automatic. If it's material or items that your character can use the system would automatically have you need it, otherwise the system would automatically greed it. If you win the item you can loot or pass. If passed the next player to win would get the choice to loot or pass until someone loots it (which would be announced to all players in the party).
Oh for the love of the gods I hope not.
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seedyman42Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
To help emphasize the action combat and streamline the looting a little more I think it would be nice if it was more automatic. If it's material or items that your character can use the system would automatically have you need it, otherwise the system would automatically greed it. If you win the item you can loot or pass. If passed the next player to win would get the choice to loot or pass until someone loots it (which would be announced to all players in the party).
I've always hated the popups, and the rolling. A bad RNG will always leave people annoyed, and there are no good RNGs.
Some kind of post dungeon/encounter bidding could be made a bit more equitable.
I really like the way they did it in Tera. If a loot dropped that could only be used by two people in the group then only those two could roll for them. If noone could use it then everyone could roll. Its by far the most fair system I've seen in an mmo.
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frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
As this discussion progresses, I think its obvious we are pretty much in agreement that the loot system needs tweeking. I hope someone in beta is bringing this to the devs attention in the beta forums. Would be a shame not to have a better system in place than what was evident during beta 1 weekend.
With all the threads and discussion on the matter, it is clear that the N/G/P system is not a popular choice.
In my experience with loot and online games, the best system is the one that keeps looting private. Items and coins drop at random intervals for all players, but you can only see what drops for you, therefore no one can ninja loot items from other players.
The argument that this puts more loot into the game is invalid because frequency of drops can always be adjusted based on a new system.
Quetum, while I kind of agree, there is a trade-off. If you see good items, but don't get them, you still know they where there.
In D3 most complained that there where no real drops, no good items except on AH. Ofcourse, this is subject to tweaking, as with any mechanic. I just think that the added reminder that you are playing a group-based game, instead of a single-player experience is all for the better. Especially since many Beta testers already report that NWO often feels like a singleplayer experience.
I don't see the massive downside to a greyed out option for Need if it is not for your class or usable by your pet.
With all the threads and discussion on the matter, it is clear that the N/G/P system is not a popular choice.
In my experience with loot and online games, the best system is the one that keeps looting private. Items and coins drop at random intervals for all players, but you can only see what drops for you, therefore no one can ninja loot items from other players.
The argument that this puts more loot into the game is invalid because frequency of drops can always be adjusted based on a new system.
This solution does not actually change anything. Even IF EVERYONE in the group is being an HAMSTER and hitting need for everything, by random chance you would get a something 1 in 5 times in a 5 person group. If we go with reducing the treasure based on a new system to not put more treasure into the game you would get the same amount of treasure so no more treasure is put into the game you are going to get the same amount of treasure so what does this solve? Now lets examine what it hurts.
If people are "playing by the rules" in a n/g/p system like in a pre-made group, it is going to take 5x more time to get the loot they are looking for that is BoA because of the reduced drop rate. So we are penalizing people for "following the rules"? That is a bad way to design a system.
I am not saying that there isn't a better system than n/g/p I am just saying this isn't it in my opinion.
zeruinMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
I'm going to roll NEED every single time if this current loot system is in place. I see absolutely no reason not to. In MMOs, it's generally every man for himself.
Personally, I don't mind if they keep this system.. but just change it to Roll or Pass. The Greed option is just silly, and expecting too much of players that they just wont roll Need instead.
Another way of looking at this is regardless of who the equipment is for, perhaps everyone should get an equal chance for it. If you're not going to actually use the equipment, maybe you could just as well sell or trade it for a piece of equipment that you can use. That's what most people do anyways. Doing it this guarantees everyone an equal chance for a rare piece of loot. Rare loot is still Rare loot, regardless of who actually needs it.
Sure, Tera has a good system, but it's not perfect. I've ran dungeons where all of, or the majority of, rare loot dropped was exclusive to only one class, and the rest of the players didn't even have the opportunity to roll on any sweet loot.
Just because only your class can use a certain type of equipment, it doesn't necessarily mean you even need it. 9/10, I don't equip what I find in loot or roll for as I probably already have something nicer.
If people are "playing by the rules" in a n/g/p system like in a pre-made group, it is going to take 5x more time to get the loot they are looking for that is BoA because of the reduced drop rate. So we are penalizing people for "following the rules"? That is a bad way to design a system.
I may be missing something, but I don't think anyone's applying the 1/N approach to a "private" n/g/p system. When I mentioned it, it was in the context of an individualized loot drop system (like what City of Heroes had) to prevent the issue of flooding the market with loot drops. I don't know if I or anyone else explained fully how CoH did things, so bear with me, and forgive me if you do know what I'm talking about. In addition, what follows is my impression of how things work; the actual mechanics or programming may be different.
You know the usual rule, where loot is determined on a per-mob basis; the mob dies, the RNG determines whether it drops loot, and if so the engine rolls against a loot table. The results are then shown to everyone via the n/g/p interface. With CoH-style looting, a mob's death triggers the RNG, but the RNG rolls for each party member individually; not just once for the mob. Everyone's chance of getting loot is the same, and a separate roll against the loot table is made for each character for whom the RNG is positive. In essence, instead of directly competing for loot, everyone gets an equal and independent chance at a roll on the loot table.
When I'm talking about adjusting the probability of loot to account for group size, I'm talking about that RNG chance for the individual system. It would have to be inversely proportional to the party size (though not necessarily linearly) to keep the total amount of loot per person per unit time about the same.
An additional factor in the CoH system is that nothing was bind-on-acquire, so even if you didn't get something useful for you right now, you could trade it with others or sell it at auction to get something you could use.
So, sure, as I've said myself, if everyone played by the common etiquette, the standard n/g/p system would guarantee fair and immediately optimal distribution of loot. But there's no mechanical incentive to play nice, and plenty of incentive to need on everything - so all it takes is one "cheater" to upset the whole thing (think "tragedy of the commons," though it's not quite the same).
With the CoH style system (which, ironically, Cryptic pioneered), coupled with the abolishment of BoA for loot drops, you may not get the loot you want right away, but you can be certain of getting it over time. It sacrifices some potential short-term efficiency for long-term fairness and optimality, and wholly prevents the issue of ninja looting and the drama that goes with it.
As for the greyed-out n/g/p, my issue with that is why bother with n/g/p at all? If you tweak n/g/p to such an extent that only people who can use the item now get access to it, why not just hand it over (with random rolls to decide between multiple candidates)?
Read what I quoted it wasn't you. The last line of the post says "The argument that this puts more loot into the game is invalid because frequency of drops can always be adjusted based on a new system." That is what I was responding too.
As a side note where was it said that NWO would not have BoA loot? I am not saying it isn't true just that I have never seen that. I could have swore I had a piece of BoA loot in the beta weekend, but I could totally be on crack.
I understand how the CoH system works. However if it went this route the chance that loot would drop would have to be drastically reduced or else 5x (if people were in a 5 person group) as much loot would be produced per mob (on average). Now if BoA items don't exist this is not as big of a problem, but if they do it punishes groups who are "playing by the rules".
If BoA loot doesn't exist then it will make me very sad, because then this game is truly going to be pay to win because you never even have to kill a single mob to get the best loot in the game. Just buy Zen convert it to AD and buy the best loot in the game off the auction house. That will make me very sad. I would much rather deal with the negatives of a n/g/p system.
sorry Kierkin, the system you propose is not P2W in my opinion. If people want to spend money on items, they can. But it is not requied by others to spend RL money to be viable in later dungeons. P2W for me is: Either pay 100 dollars, or grind for 6 months, your choice.
If it stays within the limit of pay 100 dollars, or play aprox 1 month to get some item, then I consider it f2p
I'm going to roll NEED every single time if this current loot system is in place. I see absolutely no reason not to. In MMOs, it's generally every man for himself.
Personally, I don't mind if they keep this system.. but just change it to Roll or Pass. The Greed option is just silly, and expecting too much of players that they just wont roll Need instead.
Another way of looking at this is regardless of who the equipment is for, perhaps everyone should get an equal chance for it. If you're not going to actually use the equipment, maybe you could just as well sell or trade it for a piece of equipment that you can use. That's what most people do anyways. Doing it this guarantees everyone an equal chance for a rare piece of loot. Rare loot is still Rare loot, regardless of who actually needs it.
Sure, Tera has a good system, but it's not perfect. I've ran dungeons where all of, or the majority of, rare loot dropped was exclusive to only one class, and the rest of the players didn't even have the opportunity to roll on any sweet loot.
Just because only your class can use a certain type of equipment, it doesn't necessarily mean you even need it. 9/10, I don't equip what I find in loot or roll for as I probably already have something nicer.
let me know your character names so i can pre-ignore you it's this attitude that makes the sytem not work, I agree a better more sensible system would be one that limits the need button to those who can wear it but us as players need to take some responsibility on what we need or greed for.
My personal preference is to just talk with your group, actually chat with them (I know its crazy right) and from there you get an element of trust and people just greed on trash and need on what they need, that way greedy HAMSTER dont take upgrades off of people.
My personal preference is to just talk with your group, actually chat with them (I know its crazy right) and from there you get an element of trust and people just greed on trash and need on what they need, that way greedy HAMSTER dont take upgrades off of people.
Exactly - I always communicate with my group on rolls and ask them if it's ok to roll need on any item before I do it. And only go for need when I can actually use it...not just being greedy and wanting to sell it...if you want to sell it then roll greed...because just wanting money is...greed :rolleyes:
And you know what - when you're respectful people actually want to group with you again...you even make friends.
As a side note where was it said that NWO would not have BoA loot? I am not saying it isn't true just that I have never seen that. I could have swore I had a piece of BoA loot in the beta weekend, but I could totally be on crack.
I'm saying that a CoH style system works best if there's no BoA loot - I didn't say (and have no idea) whether BoA loot exists in NWO. However, I'd prefer it even with BoA, because if nothing else it would ensure equitable income streams from selling to vendors.
I understand how the CoH system works. However if it went this route the chance that loot would drop would have to be drastically reduced or else 5x (if people were in a 5 person group) as much loot would be produced per mob (on average).
I know. I said as much. A couple of times now. Yet the fact remains that it's an easy fix, as I've explained. A couple of times now.
Now if BoA items don't exist this is not as big of a problem, but if they do it punishes groups who are "playing by the rules".
It doesn't make sense to say "playing by the rules" in such a system, because players don't have a whole lot of choice in the matter. I think that's what threw me off initially, because you can't decide to not "play by the rules" like you can in a n/g/p system.
If BoA loot doesn't exist then it will make me very sad, because then this game is truly going to be pay to win because you never even have to kill a single mob to get the best loot in the game. Just buy Zen convert it to AD and buy the best loot in the game off the auction house.
So? Where do you think that AD will go? It'll go to people who actually play the game, get the items, and put them up for auction. You'll have a net flow of currency going to the people who put in the effort, which in the long run means those people will have relatively more money at hand when they actually feel the need to buy something... which should be relatively rare, since they're earning the drops in the first place (and only selling what they can't use).
Basically, people who actually play will have two potential income streams - the AD they earn by playing, and the AD they get by selling stuff to Zen purchasers. Ironically, those who buy Zen instead of playing will just have one income stream, one that's limited by real-world money. Kind of a sucker deal IMO.
Conversely, if everything's BoA, then regardless of what loot drop system we have we guarantee that a huge amount of it will be sold off to NPC vendors as trash loot, meaning it won't get into the hands of players who could use it. Unless, of course, everyone plays nice in a n/g/p system - but I think we've established that this isn't a safe bet.
Comments
However, it is possible to create systems that don't pit people against each other, while distributing loot fairly and optimally (with varying degrees of short-term efficiency). My "real complaint" about N/G/P is that it is only fair and optimal when people play nice - which, obviously, people don't do, othewise these discussions wouldn't exist.
Once you accept people's HAMSTER-hattery as a fact (you don't have to like it; you just have to know that it will happen), you can design a system that makes that HAMSTER-hattery less of a factor. I can say this with confidence because it's been done, and it works. Whether it's individual loot rolls per CoH (as klaw10 mentioned), or round-robin, or "loot" being crafting mats or tokens that can be traded and sold... there's no shortage of ways to ensure optimality and reduce (or outright remove) pointless inter-player rivalry.
Optimal or near-optimal distribution should be the goal of any loot reward system, IMO. It doesn't have to be easy, direct, or timely, but in the long run it should allow people to gear up at about the same rate for the same contribution. N/G/P mechanically does not allow that optimality except in contrived circumstances (i.e., when all players involved make the decision to play nice).
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
If I had just one wish for this game, it would be that the developers saw this matter the same way you did.
If u have played in any MMO's then u know that is not what I'm asking for. As you can clearly see by others posting here as well, it's a system that is flawed by those constantly hitting "NEED" for every item that drops. n/g/p is a good start to a loot system, but becomes useless in many mmo's due to player greed. so once again, a little coding as u suggest, can fix that. There is nothing wrong with asking for a more customizeable loot system. u can customize everything else in the game, why not the most vital part of any MMO ?? the loot system.
1 - There is an option that prevents to need items you cannot use/equip. (that is, your character must meet certain requirements to be able to press need for an item.)
2 - People in the party don't say stupid things like "oh, all greed on this" on stuff like tokens to purchase gear or consumables that everyone can use. Everyone should NEED on this if they want it, and greed only if they don't, not the other way around, lol.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
This says it all, really. Perfectly stated.
Drats... And here I thought happy players play longer. :-)
Nope. The whole idea behind a death penalty was to keep people playing and therefore paying.
No doubt
A Decent system but it puts a lot more loot into the game which can be an issue. Of all the systems here though it is the most appealing to me. Hate round robin. I would rather take my chances with pugs rolling on a item I want once in awhile in a n/g/p system then be subjected to this. This is why. Lets say I am looking for a BoA piece of loot. I am with 4 of my friends and we all are good about loot. Now I have to rely on that rare drop actually dropping and I have to be lucky enough that it actually goes to me randomly. Where as in a n/g/p system, the first time it drops, I get it. This is even worse than being with a group of pugs and a piece of loot dropping and having to fight with the n/g/p system. At least there is a reasonable chance that at least one of the random pugs in my group will hit greed and not need and that makes my chances of getting the loot better than a round robin system on any given drop.
Crafting mats/tokens being the most likely that everyone gets what they want is a decent system, but it just "feels" boring to me. I want to get a sword or a ring or whatever right off the thing I killed and then I can remember that kill and have a story and memory associated with it. The problem is everyone has their own ideas of what an "Optimal or near-optimal distribution" system is, so it is not like it can actually be achieved.
Now this being said, is there a better way to distribute loot than n/g/p? Most likely but other than the CoH system, Claw10 brought up (which has potential economy problems) I haven't seen one listed IMO. I think the best way would to be to make a bunch (4 or 5
I've defined what I mean by it, i.e., reliably similar useful rewards for similar contribution (in as much as you can measure "contribution"). I'd be interested in hearing other definitions.
Works for me. Problem is, people will tend to go with the default (which right now apparently is N/G/P). In addition, I'd go a step further and make it a checkable option in whatever sort of LFG tools we're gonna get.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Yeah that is a good idea too. I am all for options.
Oh for the love of the gods I hope not.
I've always hated the popups, and the rolling. A bad RNG will always leave people annoyed, and there are no good RNGs.
Some kind of post dungeon/encounter bidding could be made a bit more equitable.
In my experience with loot and online games, the best system is the one that keeps looting private. Items and coins drop at random intervals for all players, but you can only see what drops for you, therefore no one can ninja loot items from other players.
The argument that this puts more loot into the game is invalid because frequency of drops can always be adjusted based on a new system.
In D3 most complained that there where no real drops, no good items except on AH. Ofcourse, this is subject to tweaking, as with any mechanic. I just think that the added reminder that you are playing a group-based game, instead of a single-player experience is all for the better. Especially since many Beta testers already report that NWO often feels like a singleplayer experience.
I don't see the massive downside to a greyed out option for Need if it is not for your class or usable by your pet.
This solution does not actually change anything. Even IF EVERYONE in the group is being an HAMSTER and hitting need for everything, by random chance you would get a something 1 in 5 times in a 5 person group. If we go with reducing the treasure based on a new system to not put more treasure into the game you would get the same amount of treasure so no more treasure is put into the game you are going to get the same amount of treasure so what does this solve? Now lets examine what it hurts.
If people are "playing by the rules" in a n/g/p system like in a pre-made group, it is going to take 5x more time to get the loot they are looking for that is BoA because of the reduced drop rate. So we are penalizing people for "following the rules"? That is a bad way to design a system.
I am not saying that there isn't a better system than n/g/p I am just saying this isn't it in my opinion.
Although I could see complaints from some who are all like "HEY! i wanted that for my Rogue!" "You aren't playing your Rogue right now are you..."
Neverwinter Wiki
Personally, I don't mind if they keep this system.. but just change it to Roll or Pass. The Greed option is just silly, and expecting too much of players that they just wont roll Need instead.
Another way of looking at this is regardless of who the equipment is for, perhaps everyone should get an equal chance for it. If you're not going to actually use the equipment, maybe you could just as well sell or trade it for a piece of equipment that you can use. That's what most people do anyways. Doing it this guarantees everyone an equal chance for a rare piece of loot. Rare loot is still Rare loot, regardless of who actually needs it.
Sure, Tera has a good system, but it's not perfect. I've ran dungeons where all of, or the majority of, rare loot dropped was exclusive to only one class, and the rest of the players didn't even have the opportunity to roll on any sweet loot.
Just because only your class can use a certain type of equipment, it doesn't necessarily mean you even need it. 9/10, I don't equip what I find in loot or roll for as I probably already have something nicer.
You know the usual rule, where loot is determined on a per-mob basis; the mob dies, the RNG determines whether it drops loot, and if so the engine rolls against a loot table. The results are then shown to everyone via the n/g/p interface. With CoH-style looting, a mob's death triggers the RNG, but the RNG rolls for each party member individually; not just once for the mob. Everyone's chance of getting loot is the same, and a separate roll against the loot table is made for each character for whom the RNG is positive. In essence, instead of directly competing for loot, everyone gets an equal and independent chance at a roll on the loot table.
When I'm talking about adjusting the probability of loot to account for group size, I'm talking about that RNG chance for the individual system. It would have to be inversely proportional to the party size (though not necessarily linearly) to keep the total amount of loot per person per unit time about the same.
An additional factor in the CoH system is that nothing was bind-on-acquire, so even if you didn't get something useful for you right now, you could trade it with others or sell it at auction to get something you could use.
So, sure, as I've said myself, if everyone played by the common etiquette, the standard n/g/p system would guarantee fair and immediately optimal distribution of loot. But there's no mechanical incentive to play nice, and plenty of incentive to need on everything - so all it takes is one "cheater" to upset the whole thing (think "tragedy of the commons," though it's not quite the same).
With the CoH style system (which, ironically, Cryptic pioneered), coupled with the abolishment of BoA for loot drops, you may not get the loot you want right away, but you can be certain of getting it over time. It sacrifices some potential short-term efficiency for long-term fairness and optimality, and wholly prevents the issue of ninja looting and the drama that goes with it.
As for the greyed-out n/g/p, my issue with that is why bother with n/g/p at all? If you tweak n/g/p to such an extent that only people who can use the item now get access to it, why not just hand it over (with random rolls to decide between multiple candidates)?
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
Read what I quoted it wasn't you. The last line of the post says "The argument that this puts more loot into the game is invalid because frequency of drops can always be adjusted based on a new system." That is what I was responding too.
As a side note where was it said that NWO would not have BoA loot? I am not saying it isn't true just that I have never seen that. I could have swore I had a piece of BoA loot in the beta weekend, but I could totally be on crack.
I understand how the CoH system works. However if it went this route the chance that loot would drop would have to be drastically reduced or else 5x (if people were in a 5 person group) as much loot would be produced per mob (on average). Now if BoA items don't exist this is not as big of a problem, but if they do it punishes groups who are "playing by the rules".
If BoA loot doesn't exist then it will make me very sad, because then this game is truly going to be pay to win because you never even have to kill a single mob to get the best loot in the game. Just buy Zen convert it to AD and buy the best loot in the game off the auction house. That will make me very sad. I would much rather deal with the negatives of a n/g/p system.
If it stays within the limit of pay 100 dollars, or play aprox 1 month to get some item, then I consider it f2p
let me know your character names so i can pre-ignore you
My personal preference is to just talk with your group, actually chat with them (I know its crazy right) and from there you get an element of trust and people just greed on trash and need on what they need, that way greedy HAMSTER dont take upgrades off of people.
Exactly - I always communicate with my group on rolls and ask them if it's ok to roll need on any item before I do it. And only go for need when I can actually use it...not just being greedy and wanting to sell it...if you want to sell it then roll greed...because just wanting money is...greed :rolleyes:
And you know what - when you're respectful people actually want to group with you again...you even make friends.
I know. I said as much. A couple of times now. Yet the fact remains that it's an easy fix, as I've explained. A couple of times now.
It doesn't make sense to say "playing by the rules" in such a system, because players don't have a whole lot of choice in the matter. I think that's what threw me off initially, because you can't decide to not "play by the rules" like you can in a n/g/p system.
So? Where do you think that AD will go? It'll go to people who actually play the game, get the items, and put them up for auction. You'll have a net flow of currency going to the people who put in the effort, which in the long run means those people will have relatively more money at hand when they actually feel the need to buy something... which should be relatively rare, since they're earning the drops in the first place (and only selling what they can't use).
Basically, people who actually play will have two potential income streams - the AD they earn by playing, and the AD they get by selling stuff to Zen purchasers. Ironically, those who buy Zen instead of playing will just have one income stream, one that's limited by real-world money. Kind of a sucker deal IMO.
Conversely, if everything's BoA, then regardless of what loot drop system we have we guarantee that a huge amount of it will be sold off to NPC vendors as trash loot, meaning it won't get into the hands of players who could use it. Unless, of course, everyone plays nice in a n/g/p system - but I think we've established that this isn't a safe bet.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos