Doesn't matter if it can be found in the game something that provides, for the lack of a better word, power is still power. Are you buying exclusive power, no, but to say something that aids an attack is only cosmetic seems a little wrong to me. As for the unique enchantment on the weapon that doesn't sound like something found in the game.
Now that said do I think it is game breaking or it will effect my enjoyment of the game if I don't buy said items, not one bit. One thing I will not do is buy a masterwork sword with enchantment and say it is cosmetic only. I do think everyone should be able to enjoy the game the way they want and that includes buying the founders pack or buying a bit of power earlier than you might find it,if you want.
Do the "this is pay to win wackos" all have a club house they meet in somewhere and drink "the cool aid"? The number of times I have seen the same exact argument that completely ignores the facts is astounding. If everyone can get a pet in game and they are all the same stats and the only difference is how they look there is no exclusive power in having the panther. Well I guess if you are hysterically afraid of panthers and someone attacked you with a panther pet and it made you run from there computer screaming it would be exclusive power.
It's something you can't get for free (being Founders Pack unique). It's not cosmetic as it has a game effect, and per Cryptic they're selling "cosmetic only". So yes, it's a power you bought, that can only be gotten by buying it.
One more cool aid junky for the pile. Oh and Cryptic did not say they were only selling cosmetics they said it would not be pay to win. They are two completely different things.
Never said they were selling overwhelming power. I'm just not blinding myself to the fact that I will start off a bit stronger than someone who didn't buy anything. I'm not sure what is soo hard to understand about that "fact".
Because it is not a fact, it is your opinion based on nothing but your imagination. So you know that a brand new player that has never spent a dime doesn't start with a different looking pet with the same stats? If you do I would love to know where you found this information.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
Eeek. Settle down everybody.
Tinbender, over the last few days I have not seen a single reasonable post saying that they are selling power but it's not pay to win. People generally skip that step and either say it's nothing or it's game breaking.
For that I am sorry, I didn't see your post as something other than a claim for P2W.
Personally I call anything with slight power a convenience item and try to make that distinction. I am not sure I would even call the panther a convenience item though. Remember there's no guarantee you'll be running around with it at level one and if you can I wouldn't doubt they'd also give another pet to free players as well.
That is something which can only be discovered once players play the game.
End result is everything in those packs are cosmetic, mild convenience or nothing offered by even other subscription games. *coughs DDO.
And that's all I point out and defend.
We do need to keep this discussion civil though! Let's not get angry or label others for having different views.
When the time comes people will either play the game or they won't and until then it's all speculation.
Until the Cash Shop is shown no one can say if it's purely truly cosmetic/convenient or not. I will simply point out STO's starships. Jack stated in a panel that the starships are not better they're "different." That it has better armor but it might be less maneuverable. I never played STO so am no expert but I've played numerous MMOs as tanks and I know full well that armor can be a king of all stats for tanks. His comment does worry me. But then again I have no qualms of pay for races and classes to support Cryptic if Neverwinter takes off and is a good product as long as they are at a reasonable price.
One more cool aid junky for the pile. Oh and Cryptic did not say they were only selling cosmetics they said it would not be pay to win. They are two completely different things.
Actually they did state cosmetic and convenience items only. Wasn't Andy but the guy with the beard and glasses head dev.
Course cosmetic can be very subjective... like race or classes. Not required to play and their power's/abilities are as Jack would put it, "different" and not "better" but meta-gamers would argue differently.
Actually they did state cosmetic and convenience items only. Wasn't Andy but the guy with the beard and glasses head dev.
Course cosmetic can be very subjective... like race or classes. Not required to play and their power's/abilities are as Jack would put it, "different" and not "better" but meta-gamers would argue differently.
That is the point. It doesn't matter what happens the whining pay to win cool aid drinkers are going to call anything that comes out that they can't have for free pay to win and find an excuse to rage at the top of their lungs about the injustice of it all.
Wow so the devs are hoping , rightfully so?, that many will spend hundreds a month. Me and my 15 bucks means minimal if anything to them. So I guess I need to look elsewhere for a sub MMO. thanks for the 411. Not angry just amused in a sad way. Paying 15 a month should be able to remove any restrictions on my gaming experience like ads, slow times, being auto last in line. I guess my expectations are too high.
Actually, most F2P models that I've experienced are designed to encourage players to subscribe by giving subscribers access to a lot of cash-shop stuff for "free," and/or giving subscribers a monthly stipend of cash-shop, er, cash to spend or hold as they like.
Of course, it depends on how Cryptic implements this all, and there's a huge difference in subscriber access in their two MMOs, so it's hard to say.
Actually, most F2P models that I've experienced are designed to encourage players to subscribe by giving subscribers access to a lot of cash-shop stuff for "free," and/or giving subscribers a monthly stipend of cash-shop, er, cash to spend or hold as they like.
Of course, it depends on how Cryptic implements this all, and there's a huge difference in subscriber access in their two MMOs, so it's hard to say.
They have stated there is going to be no subscription in NWO. Now it is possible that could change, but I doubt it.
Yeah, this isn't that. It doesn't matter that the power probably isn't that powerful. The point is they're selling a power despite them saying they would not do so.
Now I suppose you could split hairs and say this isn't in the "cash shop", but it's sold for the game, for cash.
0
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited February 2013
They always said there would be convenience items.
Because it is not a fact, it is your opinion based on nothing but your imagination. So you know that a brand new player that has never spent a dime doesn't start with a different looking pet with the same stats? If you do I would love to know where you found this information.
thus the quotes. sheesh never meant it was an indisputable fact sorry if it was taken that way.
Tinbender, over the last few days I have not seen a single reasonable post saying that they are selling power but it's not pay to win. People generally skip that step and either say it's nothing or it's game breaking.
For that I am sorry, I didn't see your post as something other than a claim for P2W.
Personally I call anything with slight power a convenience item and try to make that distinction. I am not sure I would even call the panther a convenience item though. Remember there's no guarantee you'll be running around with it at level one and if you can I wouldn't doubt they'd also give another pet to free players as well.
That is something which can only be discovered once players play the game.
End result is everything in those packs are cosmetic, mild convenience or nothing offered by even other subscription games. *coughs DDO.
And that's all I point out and defend.
Aaah as I thought different definitions.
I am thinking anything I can buy and not have to find that makes my character stronger as the ablity to buy power. Now, that said I do not think buying power will be the only way to get it. It just gives me a, in all probability, a short term head start.
Thanks for your response and to be right honest I do not understand the whole play2win thing as this is more of a persistant world for me to have adventures in and not some single player game to beat. Just my 2 cents worth and probably not worth that much.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
*sniffs* Me want ranger
0
sarcon89Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wow so the devs are hoping , rightfully so?, that many will spend hundreds a month. Me and my 15 bucks means minimal if anything to them. So I guess I need to look elsewhere for a sub MMO. thanks for the 411. Not angry just amused in a sad way. Paying 15 a month should be able to remove any restrictions on my gaming experience like ads, slow times, being auto last in line. I guess my expectations are too high.
ummm there should be no adds, slow load times your thinking former subs that were turned into a freemium model
The problem that I see is that a few things in the founders packs aren't "cosmetic only". Have a special racial bonus in the $200 one and a pet that is combat ready. With the next tier down you get a pet that's combat ready also. Sure, it matters if those pets are worth having around for fights or not, but if they are then they've already broken their "cosmetic only" statement. Some would say the weapon/item from the level 60 chest and even the starting ac amulet would be breaking that, and it might be, but it would be another wait and see deal. If those items are actual boosts to your character, if the pet is almost as good as having another person in your group....then they've completely negated their statements about not having a pay to win system.
See I view that statement differently. Lets parse it, "cosmetic" or "situation upgrade." At least for the drow power change(one has to assume this replaces the standard drow power and isn't in addition), drow don't have the fairie fire ability standard in 4E, its been replaced by darkfire, and I'm guessing its not the same as the 1st level druid daily power of that name that does exist in 4E, so lets assume for arguments sake that it is more like the 3rd edition drow power, which is very similar to the 4th edition darkfire. If all of these things are true than faerie fire is by definition a situation upgrade, in that it is more beneficial in some situations than the currently existing power for drow, but is probably inferior in some instances. In fact depending on how you define situation, it is more of a situation upgrade than the example of 25% XP bonus which is universally beneficial assuming that you are adventuring in a place that grants you experience, which is the almost 100% standard condition you are in in the game, not some sort of situation.
The problem that I see is that a few things in the founders packs aren't "cosmetic only". Have a special racial bonus in the $200 one and a pet that is combat ready. With the next tier down you get a pet that's combat ready also. Sure, it matters if those pets are worth having around for fights or not, but if they are then they've already broken their "cosmetic only" statement. Some would say the weapon/item from the level 60 chest and even the starting ac amulet would be breaking that, and it might be, but it would be another wait and see deal. If those items are actual boosts to your character, if the pet is almost as good as having another person in your group....then they've completely negated their statements about not having a pay to win system.
Not if the pet is on par with the companions that are available through in-game means. Then it's just cosmetic and convenient.
Its pretty no-brainer, of course they cant get 400k+ sub so they need more money than monthy fees. I still think AAA titles still stays on sub fees like Elder Scroll Online.
Yeah, the DC Universe devs at Sony thought that too, as did BioWare.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
The benefits given for the packs are limited to negligible and nobody will have an advantage over others esp in thngs like PvP. There is NO P2W going on here nor will there be.
Please include what your smoking in the Founders Pack to Up the value...
It is blatently P2P (Priority access) and P2W (Items with Power). But who the hell cares? Only the people who probably wont buy stuff any way. Most of the game is going to be instanced groups working as a team. PvP is for sissies with "meme" complexes, and thats the only place P2W matters.
If you enjoy the game more by spending $ 200.00 on it, more power to you. The value of the game is determined by the player. As previoudsly stated, I cant make the betas (still going to kick someone at PaxEast for scheduling the last beta that weekend) but since I wont be around between Feb7-17th (listens to mods breathe sigh of relief) I don't intend to purchase until the 18th if it is still avaialable. So bring it on, sell the +10 vorpal sword of greater everything bane, and let the whiners whine.
I'll leave your comment in to say it's "you're smoking." Normally it would be consider insulting, but since it's directed towards me, I'll decide to decline editing and reply. Firstly, If you're going to try and be clever, please spell it right.
Secondly, can you show me SPECIFIC proof of the advantage? Please, by all means.
Since I'm pretty sure you lack the knowledge only previously obtained by those under NDA, you then would be speculating and have no basis. While I'd like to go over specifics how wrong you are with the variants of the race and what this could mean NDA means I cannot.
I don't mind you speaking your opinion, but do note it is your opinion or fear and drop the stance of authority if you lack proof.
There is not a single item that even gets near +10 in all of the fourth edition of D&D let alone this game. Again, your hyperbole is noted and is not to be confused with fact.
lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited February 2013
P2W is really being misdefined in this thread.
Pay 2 win is an advantage not "items with power". Nor is it "I can't play what I want to play without paying". It is very simply "an advantage which cannot be gained in-game without paying money".
P2W: Companions are only available via purchase. Literally no way (besides purchase) to gain a companion in-game. If that companion is available (even through grinding astral diamonds/faction rep/whatever) to non-paying players, it's not P2W.
Not P2W: Regenade drow with a faerie fire debuff (-5 defense), when standard drow get a buff to attack (+5 attack) via background.
DEFINITELY not P2W: Masterwork weapon, when you can get one through quest rewards. +10 weapon in paid shop when you can earn one in-game.
P2W: Vorpal sword only available through cash shop (without a vorpal sword being available in-game).
Really, just because you can't have it now, have exactly that item or thing, or "you can't build drizzt without paying" isn't pay to win.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Pay 2 win is an advantage not "items with power". Nor is it "I can't play what I want to play without paying". It is very simply "an advantage which cannot be gained in-game without paying money".
P2W: Companions are only available via purchase. Literally no way (besides purchase) to gain a companion in-game. If that companion is available (even through grinding astral diamonds/faction rep/whatever) to non-paying players, it's not P2W.
Not P2W: Regenade drow with a faerie fire debuff (-5 defense), when standard drow get a buff to attack (+5 attack) via background.
DEFINITELY not P2W: Masterwork weapon, when you can get one through quest rewards. +10 weapon in paid shop when you can earn one in-game.
P2W: Vorpal sword only available through cash shop (without a vorpal sword being available in-game).
Really, just because you can't have it now, have exactly that item or thing, or "you can't build drizzt without paying" isn't pay to win.
This concept is correct. (Even though there is no masterwork, + or - 5 defense mod for these abilities, vorpal swords, etc offered in the game. The concept behind the idea mentioned in the post is correct.)
I don't think I'm the only one who really dislikes the term "F2P". Generally speaking. There are so very few "F2P" games which would come close to the premise of free-to-play.
One of the things i dislike about subscriptions models is how you continue to pay a significant amount of money for content you had to buy beforehand. I don't think that server costs, maintenance and continued support are good arguments for that model, in any way.
Basically, this model is the easiest and fastest way to cash back in. As such, it is not inherently consumer oriented. Subscribers may feel privileged but if you take some time to think on it, they really aren't.
Now, F2P is mostly the definition of a game that places restrictions on the target audience. More so if the game used to be subscription-only. Those restrictions can either be mild (LOTRO) or heavy (SWTOR) or even negligible (STO). Lately, more and more games go F2P with either heavy or mild restrictions. In the case of Vanguard, there are also examples for games that change their F2P model because of negative and very valid complaints about their former model.
Personally, I dislike heavily restricted games. Their purpose is to offer a "demo" of sorts but what i have witnessed, in the case of SWTOR, is that people feel screwed over or generally treated very bad, like second-rate citizens. That ultimately alienates developers and their user base.
F2P with mild restrictions, on the other hand, can be very successful and actually attract new premium subscribers and store purchasers. Even more so if the company is fair enough to keep pay-to-win out of the equation.
B2P is an entirely different beast and my preferred one. You buy the boxed game, digital copy or whatnot and play for free. Then you can still buy fluff from the store and eventually the expansions.
All of these models are perfectly viable for generating an income for a company. The limiting factor is how well the devs keep in touch with their community. Paying customers ultimately want to get the best of the best for their money while "free" players don't like to be left behind.
In-game fluff stores are remarkably potent income generators.
0
kamaliiciousMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 0Arc User
The quote is "We do have a cash shop, but we’ll offer only cosmetic or situational upgrades such as a temporary bonus to XP gain”
So do you consider a unique power not available elsewhere "cosmetic" or a "situational upgrade"?
I am by no means a supporter of these packs and think it is purchasing power.
Now that said it is only a temporary headstart and my understanding is that you can find something equivalent for free in the game world. So the unique power is mostly cosmetic as each race has a unique power that is supposed to be balanced.
So do you consider a unique power not available elsewhere "cosmetic" or a "situational upgrade"?
This kind of goes back to waht I was saying before. There are situations where a unique power is neither "cosmetic" or a "situational upgrade." But there are circumstances where it is. Personally, I view the XP booster as a form of definitional pay-to-win. It allows a player who does the exact same thing as another player in the game to advance faster than the player without that item. Since the game places a value on XP advancement, and level advancement is viewed as a form of "winning" a game. Now to answer those who would say, but Shaudius, everyone faces the same level cap, therefore getting there faster isn't winning. I would say that there are many that say that getting there first or faster than someone else is beating them, and to those players the XP boost is playing to win.
Compare this, however, to a unique power. A unique power is not neccesarily play to win. It depends on the context. If the unique power is a substitute for some other power of equal power value, than it is not playing to win, it in instead variety. If, however, the power you obtain is worth far more than what you give up, than a unique power may in fact be pay to win.
I am by no means a supporter of these packs and think it is purchasing power.
Now that said it is only a temporary headstart and my understanding is that you can find something equivalent for free in the game world. So the unique power is mostly cosmetic as each race has a unique power that is supposed to be balanced.
You'd be correct. The difference between P2W and F2P games is simply that you can achieve that power within the game, no cash whatsoever.
And frankly, Cryptic has a good track record of this in both games. A few minor things require inordinate amounts of grinding to attain them, but you can get them.
F2P always, always offers "time saving" and "cosmetic" upgrades. Even if it's just saving the time spent grinding for gold/etc. etc. and making it instant gratification, it's present in pretty much any F2P game I've seen. Granted, I haven't played every F2P game out there (some are pretty atrocious to play), but the major ones offer "reduced grinding time by spending dollars to get XYZ".
If that's not your cup of tea, or you disagree with it, that's your prerogative. Whether you support the founder's pack or not is certainly your prerogative. Just don't call it P2W, because it's not that.
0
lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
This kind of goes back to waht I was saying before. There are situations where a unique power is neither "cosmetic" or a "situational upgrade." But there are circumstances where it is. Personally, I view the XP booster as a form of definitional pay-to-win. It allows a player who does the exact same thing as another player in the game to advance faster than the player without that item. Since the game places a value on XP advancement, and level advancement is viewed as a form of "winning" a game. Now to answer those who would say, but Shaudius, everyone faces the same level cap, therefore getting there faster isn't winning. I would say that there are many that say that getting there first or faster than someone else is beating them, and to those players the XP boost is playing to win.
Compare this, however, to a unique power. A unique power is not neccesarily play to win. It depends on the context. If the unique power is a substitute for some other power of equal power value, than it is not playing to win, it in instead variety. If, however, the power you obtain is worth far more than what you give up, than a unique power may in fact be pay to win.
What if there are (like every other Cryptic game) missions that give you this same XP boost when completed? In CO's case, an even better boost. No cash required.
Please include what your smoking in the Founders Pack to Up the value...
It is blatently P2P (Priority access) and P2W (Items with Power).
Items with power are only P2W if you can't get items of equivalent power via ingame means. You've not shown this to be the case, especially since PWE's examples in other games have been that you can get the SAME items via ingame means; every example of something only available for money came from the Atari days, and has since been freed up by PWE to be available for Zen and/or EC (via the Exchange).
Quicker access is Convenience. Items that are powerful but no more so than other items ingame are effectively Cosmetic. It's only P2W if you can't get it any other way but by spending money.
Or unique power could be making your fireball look blue instead of normal orange/red with no actual change in how the spell mechanically works.
Also on a side note I enjoy F2P games and I do not in any way find it play to win by being able to gain xp or gold faster. If you care about that so much then pay for it because that is the point of company trying to make some money off the F2P model. They give 1 time item uses or in this case permanent if you Hero of the North. Since you essentially helped pay for the intial development of the game with $200 then you should get bonuses like with Marvel Heroes founder program. If I had the money Id pay it but being a parent I have responsibility to care for family first however does that mean I should not be allowed to play any MMO's because I dont want to spend the monthly cash?
This is the gap that F2P helps to carve out is the people that want to enjoy a game while paying players have someone to socialize and group up with. If game lets you trade money for time to earn the same things then you have to decide what is more valuable to you? Your money in the bank or the free time you have to play a video game?
Comments
Do the "this is pay to win wackos" all have a club house they meet in somewhere and drink "the cool aid"? The number of times I have seen the same exact argument that completely ignores the facts is astounding. If everyone can get a pet in game and they are all the same stats and the only difference is how they look there is no exclusive power in having the panther. Well I guess if you are hysterically afraid of panthers and someone attacked you with a panther pet and it made you run from there computer screaming it would be exclusive power.
One more cool aid junky for the pile. Oh and Cryptic did not say they were only selling cosmetics they said it would not be pay to win. They are two completely different things.
Because it is not a fact, it is your opinion based on nothing but your imagination. So you know that a brand new player that has never spent a dime doesn't start with a different looking pet with the same stats? If you do I would love to know where you found this information.
Tinbender, over the last few days I have not seen a single reasonable post saying that they are selling power but it's not pay to win. People generally skip that step and either say it's nothing or it's game breaking.
For that I am sorry, I didn't see your post as something other than a claim for P2W.
Personally I call anything with slight power a convenience item and try to make that distinction. I am not sure I would even call the panther a convenience item though. Remember there's no guarantee you'll be running around with it at level one and if you can I wouldn't doubt they'd also give another pet to free players as well.
That is something which can only be discovered once players play the game.
End result is everything in those packs are cosmetic, mild convenience or nothing offered by even other subscription games. *coughs DDO.
And that's all I point out and defend.
We do need to keep this discussion civil though! Let's not get angry or label others for having different views.
When the time comes people will either play the game or they won't and until then it's all speculation.
Actually they did state cosmetic and convenience items only. Wasn't Andy but the guy with the beard and glasses head dev.
Course cosmetic can be very subjective... like race or classes. Not required to play and their power's/abilities are as Jack would put it, "different" and not "better" but meta-gamers would argue differently.
That is the point. It doesn't matter what happens the whining pay to win cool aid drinkers are going to call anything that comes out that they can't have for free pay to win and find an excuse to rage at the top of their lungs about the injustice of it all.
Of course, it depends on how Cryptic implements this all, and there's a huge difference in subscriber access in their two MMOs, so it's hard to say.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
They have stated there is going to be no subscription in NWO. Now it is possible that could change, but I doubt it.
The gorilla formerly known as Kolikos
"We do have a cash shop, but we’ll offer only cosmetic or situational upgrades such as a temporary bonus to XP gain”
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/09/06/the-diy-mmorpg-how-the-neverwinter-foundry-system-could-change-online-rpgs/
Yeah, this isn't that. It doesn't matter that the power probably isn't that powerful. The point is they're selling a power despite them saying they would not do so.
Now I suppose you could split hairs and say this isn't in the "cash shop", but it's sold for the game, for cash.
thus the quotes. sheesh never meant it was an indisputable fact sorry if it was taken that way.
Aaah as I thought different definitions.
I am thinking anything I can buy and not have to find that makes my character stronger as the ablity to buy power. Now, that said I do not think buying power will be the only way to get it. It just gives me a, in all probability, a short term head start.
Thanks for your response and to be right honest I do not understand the whole play2win thing as this is more of a persistant world for me to have adventures in and not some single player game to beat. Just my 2 cents worth and probably not worth that much.
ummm there should be no adds, slow load times your thinking former subs that were turned into a freemium model
See I view that statement differently. Lets parse it, "cosmetic" or "situation upgrade." At least for the drow power change(one has to assume this replaces the standard drow power and isn't in addition), drow don't have the fairie fire ability standard in 4E, its been replaced by darkfire, and I'm guessing its not the same as the 1st level druid daily power of that name that does exist in 4E, so lets assume for arguments sake that it is more like the 3rd edition drow power, which is very similar to the 4th edition darkfire. If all of these things are true than faerie fire is by definition a situation upgrade, in that it is more beneficial in some situations than the currently existing power for drow, but is probably inferior in some instances. In fact depending on how you define situation, it is more of a situation upgrade than the example of 25% XP bonus which is universally beneficial assuming that you are adventuring in a place that grants you experience, which is the almost 100% standard condition you are in in the game, not some sort of situation.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
Not if the pet is on par with the companions that are available through in-game means. Then it's just cosmetic and convenient.
Yeah, the DC Universe devs at Sony thought that too, as did BioWare.
I'll leave your comment in to say it's "you're smoking." Normally it would be consider insulting, but since it's directed towards me, I'll decide to decline editing and reply. Firstly, If you're going to try and be clever, please spell it right.
Secondly, can you show me SPECIFIC proof of the advantage? Please, by all means.
Since I'm pretty sure you lack the knowledge only previously obtained by those under NDA, you then would be speculating and have no basis. While I'd like to go over specifics how wrong you are with the variants of the race and what this could mean NDA means I cannot.
I don't mind you speaking your opinion, but do note it is your opinion or fear and drop the stance of authority if you lack proof.
There is not a single item that even gets near +10 in all of the fourth edition of D&D let alone this game. Again, your hyperbole is noted and is not to be confused with fact.
Pay 2 win is an advantage not "items with power". Nor is it "I can't play what I want to play without paying". It is very simply "an advantage which cannot be gained in-game without paying money".
P2W: Companions are only available via purchase. Literally no way (besides purchase) to gain a companion in-game. If that companion is available (even through grinding astral diamonds/faction rep/whatever) to non-paying players, it's not P2W.
Not P2W: Regenade drow with a faerie fire debuff (-5 defense), when standard drow get a buff to attack (+5 attack) via background.
DEFINITELY not P2W: Masterwork weapon, when you can get one through quest rewards. +10 weapon in paid shop when you can earn one in-game.
P2W: Vorpal sword only available through cash shop (without a vorpal sword being available in-game).
Really, just because you can't have it now, have exactly that item or thing, or "you can't build drizzt without paying" isn't pay to win.
This concept is correct. (Even though there is no masterwork, + or - 5 defense mod for these abilities, vorpal swords, etc offered in the game. The concept behind the idea mentioned in the post is correct.)
One of the things i dislike about subscriptions models is how you continue to pay a significant amount of money for content you had to buy beforehand. I don't think that server costs, maintenance and continued support are good arguments for that model, in any way.
Basically, this model is the easiest and fastest way to cash back in. As such, it is not inherently consumer oriented. Subscribers may feel privileged but if you take some time to think on it, they really aren't.
Now, F2P is mostly the definition of a game that places restrictions on the target audience. More so if the game used to be subscription-only. Those restrictions can either be mild (LOTRO) or heavy (SWTOR) or even negligible (STO). Lately, more and more games go F2P with either heavy or mild restrictions. In the case of Vanguard, there are also examples for games that change their F2P model because of negative and very valid complaints about their former model.
Personally, I dislike heavily restricted games. Their purpose is to offer a "demo" of sorts but what i have witnessed, in the case of SWTOR, is that people feel screwed over or generally treated very bad, like second-rate citizens. That ultimately alienates developers and their user base.
F2P with mild restrictions, on the other hand, can be very successful and actually attract new premium subscribers and store purchasers. Even more so if the company is fair enough to keep pay-to-win out of the equation.
B2P is an entirely different beast and my preferred one. You buy the boxed game, digital copy or whatnot and play for free. Then you can still buy fluff from the store and eventually the expansions.
All of these models are perfectly viable for generating an income for a company. The limiting factor is how well the devs keep in touch with their community. Paying customers ultimately want to get the best of the best for their money while "free" players don't like to be left behind.
In-game fluff stores are remarkably potent income generators.
So do you consider a unique power not available elsewhere "cosmetic" or a "situational upgrade"?
I am by no means a supporter of these packs and think it is purchasing power.
Now that said it is only a temporary headstart and my understanding is that you can find something equivalent for free in the game world. So the unique power is mostly cosmetic as each race has a unique power that is supposed to be balanced.
This kind of goes back to waht I was saying before. There are situations where a unique power is neither "cosmetic" or a "situational upgrade." But there are circumstances where it is. Personally, I view the XP booster as a form of definitional pay-to-win. It allows a player who does the exact same thing as another player in the game to advance faster than the player without that item. Since the game places a value on XP advancement, and level advancement is viewed as a form of "winning" a game. Now to answer those who would say, but Shaudius, everyone faces the same level cap, therefore getting there faster isn't winning. I would say that there are many that say that getting there first or faster than someone else is beating them, and to those players the XP boost is playing to win.
Compare this, however, to a unique power. A unique power is not neccesarily play to win. It depends on the context. If the unique power is a substitute for some other power of equal power value, than it is not playing to win, it in instead variety. If, however, the power you obtain is worth far more than what you give up, than a unique power may in fact be pay to win.
Neverwinter Official Wiki - http://neverwinter.gamepedia.com/
You'd be correct. The difference between P2W and F2P games is simply that you can achieve that power within the game, no cash whatsoever.
And frankly, Cryptic has a good track record of this in both games. A few minor things require inordinate amounts of grinding to attain them, but you can get them.
F2P always, always offers "time saving" and "cosmetic" upgrades. Even if it's just saving the time spent grinding for gold/etc. etc. and making it instant gratification, it's present in pretty much any F2P game I've seen. Granted, I haven't played every F2P game out there (some are pretty atrocious to play), but the major ones offer "reduced grinding time by spending dollars to get XYZ".
If that's not your cup of tea, or you disagree with it, that's your prerogative. Whether you support the founder's pack or not is certainly your prerogative. Just don't call it P2W, because it's not that.
What if there are (like every other Cryptic game) missions that give you this same XP boost when completed? In CO's case, an even better boost. No cash required.
Items with power are only P2W if you can't get items of equivalent power via ingame means. You've not shown this to be the case, especially since PWE's examples in other games have been that you can get the SAME items via ingame means; every example of something only available for money came from the Atari days, and has since been freed up by PWE to be available for Zen and/or EC (via the Exchange).
Quicker access is Convenience. Items that are powerful but no more so than other items ingame are effectively Cosmetic. It's only P2W if you can't get it any other way but by spending money.
Also on a side note I enjoy F2P games and I do not in any way find it play to win by being able to gain xp or gold faster. If you care about that so much then pay for it because that is the point of company trying to make some money off the F2P model. They give 1 time item uses or in this case permanent if you Hero of the North. Since you essentially helped pay for the intial development of the game with $200 then you should get bonuses like with Marvel Heroes founder program. If I had the money Id pay it but being a parent I have responsibility to care for family first however does that mean I should not be allowed to play any MMO's because I dont want to spend the monthly cash?
This is the gap that F2P helps to carve out is the people that want to enjoy a game while paying players have someone to socialize and group up with. If game lets you trade money for time to earn the same things then you have to decide what is more valuable to you? Your money in the bank or the free time you have to play a video game?