It's barely a barrier at all unless you are doing one of:
1) creating a bunch of accounts to get around Foundry slot limits, instead of buying the slots
2) a spammer creating accounts to use the UGC notice boards as ad space
Cryptic has a vested interest in preventing both of those things.
I just don't buy this argument that expecting someone to play a game for a few hours before making UGC is some onerous requirement that's going to drive high-quality content creators away. I rather doubt that the population of people who want to make UGC for games they've never played, and in fact will refuse to make UGC if they must play even a minimal amount, is even remotely large enough to outweigh the above reasons to have it.
Those are two very good reasons to have the level 15 limit. It won't stop all of them, but I'm sure it would help. Given those two reasons I guess I'd happily support the level 15 limit of entry.
gillrmn, I think you're right that it might dissuade some people from becoming authors if they're "forced" to play a game for a few hours, but I think that a person that is fascinated enough by the Foundry that they'll be more than happy to suffer through a few hours of playing a game. Like you said, they can test in the game, which amounts to playing in a limited sense. The people that aren't willing to play for a few hours before getting access to the Foundry would most likely also avoid testing combat in their adventures which could potentially limit the quality of their work.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Look, while I can understand the so called belief in "knowing the game" argument unless you people have used the foundy, you fail to understand the scenario generator has almost NOTHING to do with the gameplay. The ONLY similarity you get is if you choose to test a character in it.
The two systems, game-play and scenario maker are apples and oranges. One who is a horrible game player and can barely move a character around can still visualize and place a great adventure and one who can barely link two rooms and a dialog together can be a top player even if never making a decent mission.
But I'd overlook all of this and accept a basic gateway if it weren't for the founder payment, you can IMMEDIATELY access the Foundry. Why If this is so called "understanding" is true, why would paying $200 make you magically be a great author if you so-called need to know the ups and downs? Are you then saying people who donate can make crappy mods since if they IMMEDIATELY can access it then they "don't know what they are doing?" No, apples and oranges.
To be cynical, if a user never had this founder payment option, it's likely this is an unlock done to have people while playing have more likelihood of buying something and monetize items on the path to a free unlock just like if they were likely to buy something while collecting "free" astral diamonds to buy stuff.
Having instant access for any person with money in my personal opinion is a slap in the face if we're supposed to believe the knowledge of the game answer or makes no sense why members are supposed to "grind to 15 no matter how fast" if paying money gives a free pass to a purchaser who likely more often than not has NOT played this game and is NOT an Alpha/Foundry tester.
So I'm with Gillrmn on this as the concept based on the "rapid unlock by payment itself" shows it's not a skill reason and serves no purpose for those who may want almost nothing more than only to make mods, compared to those who have extra money who may never want to make mods but are rewarded for something true authors should be encouraged to do immediately (remember, even if a little different, we have many STO Foundry Authors already, and wish you were here too Kirkfat.)
My view may or may not reflect other users, mods, founders, and/or employees of the company who are in no way required to reply to this.
Please read my OP post. The whole reason why I am suggesting this. I am not going to stop making ... I mean when I can... foundry quests. It is because it is a barrier to some good prospective foundry authors. I think those who get to make good 5 star quests should be allowed to pick players who do not have to cross this barrier of playing unwillingly when their only interest is in the foundry.
And exactly what I am saying - laying the game has nothing to do with how you make the quest. There is an inbuilt ability to test your quest in a sandbox like environment in game.
Hence, if they are forced to put this barrier to the entry of new authors, there should be some way to remove it - like an established author being able to remove this barrier for others who he knows will help making foundry content.
I do not know why people are so opposed to it, even when it does not affect them.
EDIT:-
That is pretty much my last post on the issue. As I said, its a suggestion.
I totally agree with you.
The authors that will actually make good content and use the foundry should be allowed to get cracking as this will directly filter contents backin the game.
Unfortunatley i dont think they will, but i wish it were otherwise.
I know that i do not posses these skills, unless it was pnp, but other great UGC users coming from nwn i cant wait to play there campigns and dungeons.
Look, while I can understand the so called belief in "knowing the game" argument unless you people have used the foundy, you fail to understand the scenario generator has almost NOTHING to do with the gameplay. The ONLY similarity you get is if you choose to test a character in it.
The two systems, game-play and scenario maker are apples and oranges. One who is a horrible game player and can barely move a character around can still visualize and place a great adventure and one who can barely link two rooms and a dialog together can be a top player even if never making a decent mission.
But I'd overlook all of this and accept a basic gateway if it weren't for the founder payment, you can IMMEDIATELY access the Foundry. Why If this is so called "understanding" is true, why would paying $200 make you magically be a great author if you so-called need to know the ups and downs? Are you then saying people who donate can make crappy mods since if they IMMEDIATELY can access it then they "don't know what they are doing?" No, apples and oranges.
To be cynical, if a user never had this founder payment option, it's likely this is an unlock done to have people while playing have more likelihood of buying something and monetize items on the path to a free unlock just like if they were likely to buy something while collecting "free" astral diamonds to buy stuff.
Having instant access for any person with money in my personal opinion is a slap in the face if we're supposed to believe the knowledge of the game answer or makes no sense why members are supposed to "grind to 15 no matter how fast" if paying money gives a free pass to a purchaser who likely more often than not has NOT played this game and is NOT an Alpha/Foundry tester.
So I'm with Gillrmn on this as the concept based on the "rapid unlock by payment itself" shows it's not a skill reason and serves no purpose for those who may want almost nothing more than only to make mods, compared to those who have extra money who may never want to make mods but are rewarded for something true authors should be encouraged to do immediately (remember, even if a little different, we have many STO Foundry Authors already, and wish you were here too Kirkfat.)
My view may or may not reflect other users, mods, founders, and/or employees of the company who are in no way required to reply to this.
ok i didnt see this post, but basicaly this +1000
trust truth to understand
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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cosmictimberMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you are going to create a barrier on foundry authors, you should realize who all could be hit by it.
There are many DM who are old and not very interested in games. They have mostly played PnP but they make amazing PnP campaigns. And there are lots of them.
You are loosing quality DM material by creating a barrier for them.
~~~~
To mitigate this barrier and allow them to bypass, I would advise the following suggestion so we can bring that crowd in:-
Allow those with high 5-star rating content to "invite" players directly to foundry. For example, if I get Astral diamonds donation because people like my quests, make it so I can send invite to those unwilling old DMs who I know will make quality content.
If I try to buy it for them, they will refuse on principle. They are not willing to play the game either. So for those stubborn oldies, let an option be there for the betterment of the game. That way we can entice them into making some lore-correct good content.
Thanks.
hey guys... been away for a bit... i guess a lot has happened. all good things.
It is unfortunate that there is a barrier... but I can see the reason for it on a few levels. First, I think it is important for anyone who wants to design content to have an understanding of the game play. I am sure that there are folks out there that would disagree, but to me it is a pretty fundamental point. A p&p DM might have great ideas, but you still need to know how THIS game works.
Secondly, I think this might serve as a technical barrier as well. Two things come to mind: 1) a barrier helps prevent an overflow of content. It forces SOME (even a small) level of commitment to the game, prior to just creating files on their servers. and 2) People will hit level 15 at different times. This creates a flow of users in the foundry rather than a hard potential day one spike. This COULD be a move to protect their own server integrity. Regarding the points above... i have no idea how big files will be (i assume fairly small) or how taxing it will be on their own servers to work the foundry... just ideas.
I think it might be a combination of multiple reasons. I think there are a number of other good technical reasons too listed in this thread. Sorry if i repeated anything... trying to catch up on a forum is an impossible task
I think that it is important for Foundry quests to have some measure of consistancy with the core game... or at least the potential, thereof.
Requiring that a player have at least one character at Level 15 is a good way to do that. If someone plays to Level 15, which really won't take all that long, even if they are just blowing through the content just to get to Level 15, they will at least know a few things:
- Who the major players in NWO's plotline are
- How the game mechanics work
- What the general plot is for the game as a whole.
These three things will give a Foundry author enough insight to create content that compliments Cryptic's core content. Of course, some foundry authors won't care about the core game's story. They'll want to tell their own alternative story, and that is fine. However, there are lore enthusiasts who want what they create to fit the core game like a glove, so players feel like they are experiencing an extension of the core game, rather than being skewed into a tangent of alternate reality where things aren't consistant.
If I have the time to delve into Foundry the way I want to, I'll probably do a little bit of both types of quests.
I'm not really a John Galt,
but I play one on the forums...
:P
I think gameplay could have a huge impact on foundry content. What level is a rogue able to disarm traps? Is he the only one able to do so? Could a Fireball spell be used to alter the background/open paths? What if you made pickpocket a required feat for a mission? If you answer with "NDA" to any of those questions, you're going to need experience playing or get the info from someone who has.
Without knowing the intricacies of each class (in my opinion, up to their highest level skills), how do you expect to make great missions? Intricacies in this case being what all the class powers and feats are and how they affect the environment (such as find remove traps, dispel magic, etc.). Personally, I plan to make at least a couple adventures that showcase a particular class's advantages at their extremes, just so the people that play them can actually feel like they're doing something significant with their options, rather than running a Lv1 dungeon with the basic attack, loot, repeat formula.
Yeah, yeah, there will be missions that focus on dialog that make grand storylines and stuff, no argument there. But they're not focusing on the "roleplaying" aspect in its literal sense, such as a rogue stealing, or ranger tracking (though I guess you could just use triggers on your dialog options to get the effects). Maybe we need a cleric to Remove Curse from this area. What level is that available? Maybe after level 15, but you'd never know unless you were told from someone else. Someone else who might be having a blast playing a cleric. On a side note, without playing, you're missing out on foundry content that everyone else is making.
It seems kind of arrogant, or maybe just a little rude to ask others to play your game then go and deny them their same offer. And I think the more you experience, the more you grow and get better at doing your own quests. Other people might use the foundry in ways you didn't even imagine.
But this is about the level block. If it bugs you too much, just throw some money at Cryptic.
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encadiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 67
edited January 2013
Tbh if those oldies dont wanna play the game i dont really want them making content for it
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shiaikaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Player John Doe buys Hero of the North pack. Doesn't start playing until Early Access. Logs in and decides to play a bit. After a few hours he has reached level 15. Immediate Foundy Access? Wasted! Right? Pro hint: if you buy Hero pack, be sure to start using the Foundry first to maximize the value of your purchase.
Or not.
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muzrub333Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's like the young angsty version of "get off my lawn you damn kids!".
Indeed.
I read Truthseeker's and gilrmn's viewpoint on the matter, but it's not my experience that this is a correct viewpoint. That doesn't particularly matter, and there are exceptions to both viewpoints. It's actually not even pertinent to the OP.
The statement that we'll lose loads of content designers because they won't want to spend a few hours leveling a character, I totally disagree with. If someone wants to be creative, they'll "suffer" playing the game for 3-4 hours to start creating Foundry content. That's not opinion. It's fact. Proven by at least four different level-creation communities (which had a much longer runway to adding an adventure than this game does).
And, honestly, someone who can't be bothered to experience that much of the game (once) makes me wonder if they'll spend the 10 hours (this is a wild-a** guess) creating a good adventure worth playing. If this was old-school EQ, style leveling, fine. I'd see the point. But it's not.
Sorry but I have a problem with people who do not play the game making quests for it. I think that lvl 15 is a pretty low level, pretty decent level to reach before allowing the foundry as you should understand how the game works before making content for it.
I have to agree with this. There's a difference between PnP and actually playing on your computer in an action oriented world. I am sure those DMs could write great stories, but why even bother if you don't play the game or really benefit from it. Being recognized for no reason. Just play until level 15, get an understanding and then do what you want.
Personally, giving someone immediate access to the foundry without requiring them to play the game at all beforehand would be like giving someone a stack of D&D books for a system they haven't even used yet, such as the upcoming D&D next, and telling them to start making campaigns for it immediately. They will have no idea how the different systems actually interact with each other in a live game environment. Sure, they can do some reading, and develop an opinion about how they think the systems should work together, but they won't have any actual experience to fall back on.
This is close. Giving someone immediate access to the foundry without requiring them to play the game at all first would be like giving someone JUST the Dungeon Master's Guide. Sure, they can make an adventure, but they have no idea what the players should be able to do in a dungeon. They won't know what skills do exactly, or what skills there are. They won't know what the monsters can do that they can throw into the adventure. They won't have any idea of how hard a "hard" encounter is (though they will be able to play-test thier own adventure). They won't have seen any tricks that were created and used by other DMs to make the dungeons more fun. They also won't know have even a slight clue about what standards are being used by the game developers which will probably be expected by the players, and if they remain ignorant about those standards then even a good adventure may get low reviews and be effectively a waste of time. It would be kind of like creating a first person shooter without first playing one and not using any of the standard keystrokes for common actions (see Arma II).
Even with the above thought in mind, I was still willing to see both sides until it was mentioned that without a barrier to entry here then foundry missions would be flooded with garbage from gold-selling services who are simply using it to promote thier services. After considering that, I am wholeheartedly without question 100% behind supporting this barrier to entry. I absolutely unquestionably agree that we should refuse instant entry to new accounts based entirely on this idea. I don't know if you can tell, but I don't really like gold-farmer spam that much.
Being that I can see both sides of the argument, I am not very against giving instant access to those people who have paid the $200 for the founder's package. For one, we can be fairly certain that they're going to be real people buying these expensive packages; not gold farmers.
They likely only removed the barrier in the $200 package because they were scraping for more things to add to the package, not because this feature had all that great of a value but more because it just added to the list of fairly worthless HAMSTER that they could include in it. They still came up short of a $200 value, IMO.
I cannot imagine that anyone would have bought the $200 package for this alone. I'm betting that most people bought the packages for the beta access, guaranteed and early open beta access, mount, companion, etc and that this feature of the package didn't even tip the scale because 99.9% of players are expecting to get to level 15 anyway (most of them probably in the 1st day).
I also cannot imagine that there are a lot of people who are only interested in creating content and not at all in playing the game, but Gilrmn insists that they're out there. I'm betting that those people may create one piece of an adventure and then realize that there isn't going to be the same satisfying feedback that you get when the playing pen-n-paper version and they'll go back to pen-n-paper. Getting a five star review and a "Good job" isn't enough to keep most people motivated. Also, it is more likely that they heard that there was a D&D video game and immediately dismissed it completely since they aren't into playing video games.
Sorry but I have a problem with people who do not play the game making quests for it. I think that lvl 15 is a pretty low level, pretty decent level to reach before allowing the foundry as you should understand how the game works before making content for it.
I have to agree with Elve here Gill. NWO is unlike anything these guys played so IMO its pretty wise the company makes sure the authors know the subtle intracies of the game before they start making content for it.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
My opinion is, the level 15 requirement is a deterrence of people creating throwaway accounts to create exploitive Foundry quests with no accountability. A commitment of either time or money required to make those missions means you can't just grab a temporary email account, throw up a Foundry mission that maximizes reward and minimizes risk, and exploit away with no fear of ban.
Does it make that scenario impossible? Of course not; but it makes it much less attractive.
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marenorMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Going back to the OP. Gillrm did not seem to be suggesting that the unlock be universally disabled but that there be a method to allow people past the level limit unlock. Gillrm suggested that respected authors be allowed to invite other authors known to them to access the Foundry. Given that the Foundry unlock was included in the Hero of the North Founders pack, it is not unreasonable to assume that this option may be provided stand alone in the store. I apologize, I can not remember if that was listed as unique or not. As to the possible price, I do not care to make assumptions on that.
Going back to the OP. Gillrm did not seem to be suggesting that the unlock be universally disabled but that there be a method to allow people past the level limit unlock. Gillrm suggested that respected authors be allowed to invite other authors known to them to access the Foundry. Given that the Foundry unlock was included in the Hero of the North Founders pack, it is not unreasonable to assume that this option may be provided stand alone in the store. I apologize, I can not remember if that was listed as unique or not. As to the possible price, I do not care to make assumptions on that.
Thanks! That is exactly what I meant!
The thread was going very off-topic with discussions on if PnP DMs are better author or NWN modders - but that was not the point. Hence I stopped posting.
It was exactly as you say.
Also additionally, I am not concerned with invites in beta as previously discussed. I am talking of the situation after launch(ans it will take longer for a foundry author to collect astral diamonds using 5 star missions). Hence "everyone flooding together" situation does not applies to it.
Foundry missions go hand-in-hand with how well the community receive the missions. If an author wants to create missions out of the dark and thus make below par mission, people will start avoiding his/her missions. Reputation is a powerful tool. By the way do not believe level 15 will grant instant wisdom and knowledge to any author. I have seen plenty of game studios who have made a dozen very succesful projects and yet their latest project failed big time, while a new studio creates the new World of Warcraft franchise.
Why deny people to "play" Neverwinter the way they want to "play" it and do not let them use the Foundry whenever they wish.
Would it not be better to unlock certain content for foundry missions by playing the game? If you want pirates in your mission, you better have visited the pirates of Swordcoast ingame. Want goblins? Make sure you have killed some goblins. Etc, etc, etc.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
To those who say experience still, I ask what's the point then of allowing a player who pays instant access to the Foundry if they don't know what they are doing at L 1? Forget my answer then; I'd like to read yours.
To those who say experience still, I ask what's the point then of allowing a player who pays instant access to the Foundry if they don't know what they are doing at L 1? Forget my answer then; I'd like to read yours.
I honestly think that was purely a marketing value add by the publisher rather than something Cryptic came up with. I can't know that for certain, mind you, but publishers determine these pre-order packages more than developers (this is based on the CE boxes I've been involved with; not as a buyer, but in development).
I'm not quite as extreme on the experience side as "if you haven't killed something, you cannot use it in content". We're not Necromongers (keep what you kill). I honestly don't care if the level limitation is level 5, 10 or 15. At least get them to get their feet wet and see how daily powers work, the mechanics of the game. How dialog looks when Cryptic made a quest. Having at least a basic idea of the game-play and how classes just sort of... work is a good thing to have.
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dequixoticMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
To those who say experience still, I ask what's the point then of allowing a player who pays instant access to the Foundry if they don't know what they are doing at L 1? Forget my answer then; I'd like to read yours.
The limitation isn't just to enforce experience, but to prevent misuse by goldsellers, spammers, and advertisers as well as other abusers. If those people have to either pay to use the Foundry or get to Level 15 then every time they are banned they have to jump another hurdle which ends up being not worth their energies. If someone is going to pay $200 then it's safe to assume they won't abuse the system or at least have incentive not to.
Also they needed to add value to the $200 pack some way.
Keep in mind that "access to the Foundry" has more uses than "immediately publishing a mission". The Foundry in STO is a very complex animal, and even if it winds up greatly improved in Neverwinter, it's still going to be complex. Foundry authors can benefit from playing with it early and comparing what they found in their experimentation with what they learn in the game. If you're intending to become a Foundry author, getting in there right away will have benefits throughout your game lifetime.
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
The limitation isn't just to enforce experience, but to prevent misuse by goldsellers, spammers, and advertisers as well as other abusers. If those people have to either pay to use the Foundry or get to Level 15 then every time they are banned they have to jump another hurdle which ends up being not worth their energies. If someone is going to pay $200 then it's safe to assume they won't abuse the system or at least have incentive not to.
Also they needed to add value to the $200 pack some way.
I believe the OP's restrictions on the immediate access point were that the content creator had to get an invite from someone with a 5-star rated content submission - which could be fudged, I suppose, by a goldseller with a crew voting on the mission.
On the other hand, I wonder how hard it will be to get a 5-star rating on legitimate mods, with the h8ers h8ing on valid, decent submissions because they aren't cakewalk. That's my biggest concern. It was a problem on the NWVault for a long time; I can't remember what moderation they used to handle that. I think it was in the averaging logic (if negative rating = less than 10% of positive ratings, negative ratings only took the score down by half of what it normally would have).
Comments
Those are two very good reasons to have the level 15 limit. It won't stop all of them, but I'm sure it would help. Given those two reasons I guess I'd happily support the level 15 limit of entry.
gillrmn, I think you're right that it might dissuade some people from becoming authors if they're "forced" to play a game for a few hours, but I think that a person that is fascinated enough by the Foundry that they'll be more than happy to suffer through a few hours of playing a game. Like you said, they can test in the game, which amounts to playing in a limited sense. The people that aren't willing to play for a few hours before getting access to the Foundry would most likely also avoid testing combat in their adventures which could potentially limit the quality of their work.
The two systems, game-play and scenario maker are apples and oranges. One who is a horrible game player and can barely move a character around can still visualize and place a great adventure and one who can barely link two rooms and a dialog together can be a top player even if never making a decent mission.
But I'd overlook all of this and accept a basic gateway if it weren't for the founder payment, you can IMMEDIATELY access the Foundry. Why If this is so called "understanding" is true, why would paying $200 make you magically be a great author if you so-called need to know the ups and downs? Are you then saying people who donate can make crappy mods since if they IMMEDIATELY can access it then they "don't know what they are doing?" No, apples and oranges.
To be cynical, if a user never had this founder payment option, it's likely this is an unlock done to have people while playing have more likelihood of buying something and monetize items on the path to a free unlock just like if they were likely to buy something while collecting "free" astral diamonds to buy stuff.
Having instant access for any person with money in my personal opinion is a slap in the face if we're supposed to believe the knowledge of the game answer or makes no sense why members are supposed to "grind to 15 no matter how fast" if paying money gives a free pass to a purchaser who likely more often than not has NOT played this game and is NOT an Alpha/Foundry tester.
So I'm with Gillrmn on this as the concept based on the "rapid unlock by payment itself" shows it's not a skill reason and serves no purpose for those who may want almost nothing more than only to make mods, compared to those who have extra money who may never want to make mods but are rewarded for something true authors should be encouraged to do immediately (remember, even if a little different, we have many STO Foundry Authors already, and wish you were here too Kirkfat.)
My view may or may not reflect other users, mods, founders, and/or employees of the company who are in no way required to reply to this.
I totally agree with you.
The authors that will actually make good content and use the foundry should be allowed to get cracking as this will directly filter contents backin the game.
Unfortunatley i dont think they will, but i wish it were otherwise.
I know that i do not posses these skills, unless it was pnp, but other great UGC users coming from nwn i cant wait to play there campigns and dungeons.
ok i didnt see this post, but basicaly this +1000
trust truth to understand
It is unfortunate that there is a barrier... but I can see the reason for it on a few levels. First, I think it is important for anyone who wants to design content to have an understanding of the game play. I am sure that there are folks out there that would disagree, but to me it is a pretty fundamental point. A p&p DM might have great ideas, but you still need to know how THIS game works.
Secondly, I think this might serve as a technical barrier as well. Two things come to mind: 1) a barrier helps prevent an overflow of content. It forces SOME (even a small) level of commitment to the game, prior to just creating files on their servers. and 2) People will hit level 15 at different times. This creates a flow of users in the foundry rather than a hard potential day one spike. This COULD be a move to protect their own server integrity. Regarding the points above... i have no idea how big files will be (i assume fairly small) or how taxing it will be on their own servers to work the foundry... just ideas.
I think it might be a combination of multiple reasons. I think there are a number of other good technical reasons too listed in this thread. Sorry if i repeated anything...
Requiring that a player have at least one character at Level 15 is a good way to do that. If someone plays to Level 15, which really won't take all that long, even if they are just blowing through the content just to get to Level 15, they will at least know a few things:
- Who the major players in NWO's plotline are
- How the game mechanics work
- What the general plot is for the game as a whole.
These three things will give a Foundry author enough insight to create content that compliments Cryptic's core content. Of course, some foundry authors won't care about the core game's story. They'll want to tell their own alternative story, and that is fine. However, there are lore enthusiasts who want what they create to fit the core game like a glove, so players feel like they are experiencing an extension of the core game, rather than being skewed into a tangent of alternate reality where things aren't consistant.
If I have the time to delve into Foundry the way I want to, I'll probably do a little bit of both types of quests.
but I play one on the forums...
:P
Without knowing the intricacies of each class (in my opinion, up to their highest level skills), how do you expect to make great missions? Intricacies in this case being what all the class powers and feats are and how they affect the environment (such as find remove traps, dispel magic, etc.). Personally, I plan to make at least a couple adventures that showcase a particular class's advantages at their extremes, just so the people that play them can actually feel like they're doing something significant with their options, rather than running a Lv1 dungeon with the basic attack, loot, repeat formula.
Yeah, yeah, there will be missions that focus on dialog that make grand storylines and stuff, no argument there. But they're not focusing on the "roleplaying" aspect in its literal sense, such as a rogue stealing, or ranger tracking (though I guess you could just use triggers on your dialog options to get the effects). Maybe we need a cleric to Remove Curse from this area. What level is that available? Maybe after level 15, but you'd never know unless you were told from someone else. Someone else who might be having a blast playing a cleric. On a side note, without playing, you're missing out on foundry content that everyone else is making.
It seems kind of arrogant, or maybe just a little rude to ask others to play your game then go and deny them their same offer. And I think the more you experience, the more you grow and get better at doing your own quests. Other people might use the foundry in ways you didn't even imagine.
But this is about the level block. If it bugs you too much, just throw some money at Cryptic.
Or not.
I LOL'd.
That's like the young angsty version of "get off my lawn you damn kids!".
Indeed.
I read Truthseeker's and gilrmn's viewpoint on the matter, but it's not my experience that this is a correct viewpoint. That doesn't particularly matter, and there are exceptions to both viewpoints. It's actually not even pertinent to the OP.
The statement that we'll lose loads of content designers because they won't want to spend a few hours leveling a character, I totally disagree with. If someone wants to be creative, they'll "suffer" playing the game for 3-4 hours to start creating Foundry content. That's not opinion. It's fact. Proven by at least four different level-creation communities (which had a much longer runway to adding an adventure than this game does).
And, honestly, someone who can't be bothered to experience that much of the game (once) makes me wonder if they'll spend the 10 hours (this is a wild-a** guess) creating a good adventure worth playing. If this was old-school EQ, style leveling, fine. I'd see the point. But it's not.
I have to agree with this. There's a difference between PnP and actually playing on your computer in an action oriented world. I am sure those DMs could write great stories, but why even bother if you don't play the game or really benefit from it. Being recognized for no reason. Just play until level 15, get an understanding and then do what you want.
*~Serixil Kor'hedron- Drow Trickster~*
This is close. Giving someone immediate access to the foundry without requiring them to play the game at all first would be like giving someone JUST the Dungeon Master's Guide. Sure, they can make an adventure, but they have no idea what the players should be able to do in a dungeon. They won't know what skills do exactly, or what skills there are. They won't know what the monsters can do that they can throw into the adventure. They won't have any idea of how hard a "hard" encounter is (though they will be able to play-test thier own adventure). They won't have seen any tricks that were created and used by other DMs to make the dungeons more fun. They also won't know have even a slight clue about what standards are being used by the game developers which will probably be expected by the players, and if they remain ignorant about those standards then even a good adventure may get low reviews and be effectively a waste of time. It would be kind of like creating a first person shooter without first playing one and not using any of the standard keystrokes for common actions (see Arma II).
Even with the above thought in mind, I was still willing to see both sides until it was mentioned that without a barrier to entry here then foundry missions would be flooded with garbage from gold-selling services who are simply using it to promote thier services. After considering that, I am wholeheartedly without question 100% behind supporting this barrier to entry. I absolutely unquestionably agree that we should refuse instant entry to new accounts based entirely on this idea. I don't know if you can tell, but I don't really like gold-farmer spam that much.
Being that I can see both sides of the argument, I am not very against giving instant access to those people who have paid the $200 for the founder's package. For one, we can be fairly certain that they're going to be real people buying these expensive packages; not gold farmers.
They likely only removed the barrier in the $200 package because they were scraping for more things to add to the package, not because this feature had all that great of a value but more because it just added to the list of fairly worthless HAMSTER that they could include in it. They still came up short of a $200 value, IMO.
I cannot imagine that anyone would have bought the $200 package for this alone. I'm betting that most people bought the packages for the beta access, guaranteed and early open beta access, mount, companion, etc and that this feature of the package didn't even tip the scale because 99.9% of players are expecting to get to level 15 anyway (most of them probably in the 1st day).
I also cannot imagine that there are a lot of people who are only interested in creating content and not at all in playing the game, but Gilrmn insists that they're out there. I'm betting that those people may create one piece of an adventure and then realize that there isn't going to be the same satisfying feedback that you get when the playing pen-n-paper version and they'll go back to pen-n-paper. Getting a five star review and a "Good job" isn't enough to keep most people motivated. Also, it is more likely that they heard that there was a D&D video game and immediately dismissed it completely since they aren't into playing video games.
I have to agree with Elve here Gill. NWO is unlike anything these guys played so IMO its pretty wise the company makes sure the authors know the subtle intracies of the game before they start making content for it.
Character is what a man is in the dark
Does it make that scenario impossible? Of course not; but it makes it much less attractive.
Thanks! That is exactly what I meant!
The thread was going very off-topic with discussions on if PnP DMs are better author or NWN modders - but that was not the point. Hence I stopped posting.
It was exactly as you say.
Also additionally, I am not concerned with invites in beta as previously discussed. I am talking of the situation after launch(ans it will take longer for a foundry author to collect astral diamonds using 5 star missions). Hence "everyone flooding together" situation does not applies to it.
Why deny people to "play" Neverwinter the way they want to "play" it and do not let them use the Foundry whenever they wish.
Would it not be better to unlock certain content for foundry missions by playing the game? If you want pirates in your mission, you better have visited the pirates of Swordcoast ingame. Want goblins? Make sure you have killed some goblins. Etc, etc, etc.
I honestly think that was purely a marketing value add by the publisher rather than something Cryptic came up with. I can't know that for certain, mind you, but publishers determine these pre-order packages more than developers (this is based on the CE boxes I've been involved with; not as a buyer, but in development).
I'm not quite as extreme on the experience side as "if you haven't killed something, you cannot use it in content". We're not Necromongers (keep what you kill). I honestly don't care if the level limitation is level 5, 10 or 15. At least get them to get their feet wet and see how daily powers work, the mechanics of the game. How dialog looks when Cryptic made a quest. Having at least a basic idea of the game-play and how classes just sort of... work is a good thing to have.
The limitation isn't just to enforce experience, but to prevent misuse by goldsellers, spammers, and advertisers as well as other abusers. If those people have to either pay to use the Foundry or get to Level 15 then every time they are banned they have to jump another hurdle which ends up being not worth their energies. If someone is going to pay $200 then it's safe to assume they won't abuse the system or at least have incentive not to.
Also they needed to add value to the $200 pack some way.
I believe the OP's restrictions on the immediate access point were that the content creator had to get an invite from someone with a 5-star rated content submission - which could be fudged, I suppose, by a goldseller with a crew voting on the mission.
On the other hand, I wonder how hard it will be to get a 5-star rating on legitimate mods, with the h8ers h8ing on valid, decent submissions because they aren't cakewalk. That's my biggest concern. It was a problem on the NWVault for a long time; I can't remember what moderation they used to handle that. I think it was in the averaging logic (if negative rating = less than 10% of positive ratings, negative ratings only took the score down by half of what it normally would have).
I'll have to ask about that at some point.