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Suggestion: Foundry access at lvl15, mitigating side-effects
gillrmn
Member Posts: 7,800 Arc User
If you are going to create a barrier on foundry authors, you should realize who all could be hit by it.
There are many DM who are old and not very interested in games. They have mostly played PnP but they make amazing PnP campaigns. And there are lots of them.
You are loosing quality DM material by creating a barrier for them.
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To mitigate this barrier and allow them to bypass, I would advise the following suggestion so we can bring that crowd in:-
Allow those with high 5-star rating content to "invite" players directly to foundry. For example, if I get Astral diamonds donation because people like my quests, make it so I can send invite to those unwilling old DMs who I know will make quality content.
If I try to buy it for them, they will refuse on principle. They are not willing to play the game either. So for those stubborn oldies, let an option be there for the betterment of the game. That way we can entice them into making some lore-correct good content.
Thanks.
There are many DM who are old and not very interested in games. They have mostly played PnP but they make amazing PnP campaigns. And there are lots of them.
You are loosing quality DM material by creating a barrier for them.
~~~~
To mitigate this barrier and allow them to bypass, I would advise the following suggestion so we can bring that crowd in:-
Allow those with high 5-star rating content to "invite" players directly to foundry. For example, if I get Astral diamonds donation because people like my quests, make it so I can send invite to those unwilling old DMs who I know will make quality content.
If I try to buy it for them, they will refuse on principle. They are not willing to play the game either. So for those stubborn oldies, let an option be there for the betterment of the game. That way we can entice them into making some lore-correct good content.
Thanks.
Post edited by gillrmn on
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Maybe I just don't understand what you're getting a here?
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You really think putting a barrier on that small percentage making quests for twisted static of percentage is justified?
Also, as I said, the foundry author will be sending the invite who they think should be able to a foundry quest - it is not on random basis - and would be using Astral Diamonds from his accounts of tips they received - for the betterment of foundry. It is not something "free-pass" so they will think twice before sending it.
I am not forcing you to understand. You are free to have your opinion and I respect that.
However, any barriers to foundry is something which needs more than one meeting discussion - and needs to address what they were "aiming" for - a foundry free to any entry level barriers.
EDIT:
Unless it has changed and they have so much rush in foundry that they now have luxury to choose.
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Level 15 in Champions Online takes a few hours of play. Level 15 in Star Trek Online takes a few hours of play. What makes you think Neverwinter will be different?
If someone can't devote a few hours to playing the game before they write their Foundry masterpiece, we probably aren't missing anything with their absence.
The level requirement helps you learn the game. before you start designing for it.
Because that is a view of a gamer, not a DM.
I will not be playing game either - feel free to skip all my quest - infact skip them and do not play them.
And I am too befuddled with the changed viewpoint of cryptic towards foundry. I am not sure if I will be allowed to make content without playing, but I will sure stop promoting the foundry because their vision is much different that they had made me believe in interviews; unless they clear this point on if it will be the same after launch.
I've been a content designer for both NWN1 and 2, built both modules as part of a team and built Persistent worlds. I was a DM since the 80's (in fact, I DMed after my first three play sessions).
I can't agree with your viewpoint, especially in this digital medium. Not knowing how the system works, you won't necessarily be able to build an incredible experience for a player with just PnP experience alone. In NWN, there were plenty of great DMs who were terrible at building modules or adding to the PW. They helped come up with some awesome scripted quests, but I was the one who actually built them into the module.
Having experienced all sides (PnP, client DMing, and content creation), while the abilities feed into each other, they do not replace each other. Most of the awesome content creators for NWN had played through the OC, for a bit at least.
It's my experience you want to play the game for a bit (15 levels or about 2-3 hours sounds about right, based on Cryptic's other games) before starting to make content for it. You'll end up with a better product as a result.
EDIT: I'll make another analogy, one I'm actually really familiar with. A pencil artist may be a stunning pencil artist, but he's not a good oil painter. Until you've played with the oil paints, or actually watch a good painter at work, you are not going to go straight from pencil to oil and create a decent work of art. They are two different mediums, and both have to be learned.
In any case, devoting 2 or 3 hours to get to level 15 and get to know a bit the game, doesn't seem so "punishing" for those who would enjoy creating content and not playing the game. I'd vote for access for everyone without level restriction or recieving "invites", but level 15 doesn't sound so bad.
I think there is a heavy misunderstanding here. Foundry is not content designing. It is a tool actually designed for DMs - very much like Legos. You take objects, you place them.
You do not have to know any part of game engine like collision. If you are looking at it as a modding toolset, your perspective is wrong.
You do not "build" modeules. You design levels. Those who have any PnP DM experience, are adaptable and can design mission would find much at home with foundry than a modder of games.
You do not write any scripts, you use simple logic as any DM would.
There is no reason to believe that playing the game for 15 lvls will make you any better at foundry especially when you can test the foundry you design right inside the tool. Infact it might be harmful by constraining the imagination of the foundry author.
It is only a barrier to foundry authors and nothing else.
Reply to EDIT:
And here is where you are wrong, it is not about drawings and paintings at all - it is about who can place the LEGO boxes toghetehr while being able to adapt the story to foundry.
If you force players to play the game, you will actually end up with very similar content which would be based on the game's content. It will kill any originality.
At least that is my opinion from my experiences.
You have used the NWN toolset, right? It's a level designer. It uses assets which exist in the game, tiles, just like you state. And I'm pretty sure the Foundry will let you trigger events like a portal opening if you defeat a foe, or a dialog of some sort. Heck, there should be a way to spawn enemies as well, based on the character entering a room.
If those things aren't present, your PNP DM buddies won't use the foundry because it's so limiting. Unless they just run straight "Diablo" style adventures.
This is exactly how I look at this. For the Foundry to be interesting to me I have to have options. If those options aren't there, I wouldn't use the tool no matter what the entrance requirements are.
Speaking as a veteran NWN and NWN2 builder, I can say with all authority that I would not use the Foundry until I've played the game a bit and understood the game play, even if I had access at lvl 1. How can I design an engaging adventure if I don't understand how the game works? My main concern is the restrictions on races and classes as this is a greater problem when designing an adventure. As a builder, you have to understand the player and what they are capable of.
Agreed. In fact, playing gives you ideas on how to use events in the game engine to accomplish your goal. The best thing you can hope for without familiarity is a hack n slash "kill orc, kill orc, kill orc boss, loot" adventure.
No I haven't. But I modded other games, so I know it has a mesh deformation tool(brush and all) and you can use scripts, and pretty much anything as trigger.
The trigger conditions in foundry maybe are very limited and fine tuned to meet the criteria most DM use in their campaigns.
The examples you present are very simplistic examples. Foundry maybe able to do much more - like create an almost sandbox like experience.
The last part will be more of a problem with NWN modders. Lets us wait a few days and see what I mean.
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However, as I said before, it is a suggestion. If you don't like it feel free not to agree with it, but do not generalize and say that those who will not play will be bad at making foundry quests. As I showed earlier, your logic can be flawed due to your generalizing everything from your perspective. It is ok to have your opinion and I don't want to change it, but foundry should be inclusive, not exclusive - and that is the main objective of the solution.
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Lastly, I will again reiterate that the functionality of tool might be limited in many areas - like you unable to do simple things like resizing you models, or stuff like that - even when you want a particular trigger in, you may not be able to do it. However, that part has to be covered with imagination.
And being a modder or having experience with other tool will not help or deter you while dealing with foundry - unlike toolset where you need to know game engine physics, balancing issues, mesh deformation (to make sure collisions do not exceed certain value), animation, FX, etc - you will not need to know anything.
An average Joe would be as good as any "experienced" gaming modder - difference being the story, the way they present it and their imagination.
1. It seems a bit silly to be upset that you have to play a game for a couple hours before you can access another aspect of the game.
- If something as little as this will upset you so much that you suddenly lost all respect for the game or its developers I just don't even know what to say. Bye I guess?
2. It seems a bit silly for PWE to implement the level 15 requirement to begin with.
- Playing the game for a few hours isn't going to make a great Foundry designer. Hours upon hours spent playing with tools, great creativity, and the ability to conceive and implement a good story is what will make a great Foundry designer.
- A player that maxes out one of each class could decide to try their hand at the Foundry and design the worst adventure ever. Experience playing the game, no matter how many hours, can't teach a person how to tell a story, how to think logically, give them a sense of art and style, etc.
*ah I miss kirkfat here, he is good at explaining this stuff*
You do not design on basis of a player. You design you quest on basis of objectives and triggers. Players may change, have any level, may be solo, be of any class, have a full party, may be n00bs, maybe be vets - you will have to design it for all.
It is more of a map architecture type of thing where you go talk to stuff kill monsters and take their loot. That is the basis on which it is built on.
Recently I had a long disagreement with kirkfat where I told him nonlinear quests are possible. However now I understand his viewpoint more. He is right in saying the line in above phara.
Although I am also right when I expressed strongly to him that nonlinearity is possible. However the foundry toolset is not designed to give you anything else than to talk to guy, kill monsters, take their stuff. You can make a sandbox, but that is all using out of box thinking - things that foundry was not designed for.
It is designed for DMs to make D&D quests (like the STO foundry) - but not designed for NWN modelers/level designers etc., or game designers or people like me who have to have experience with other games in modding. A good DM (and a person who can use LEGOs) can make as good a quest as me, maybe better, without knowing all that stuff.
I will say this, that if there are too many content gates in NWO, I will pass. Being spoon fed content from a cashshop is not something I enjoy or will accept.
Please read my OP post. The whole reason why I am suggesting this. I am not going to stop making ... I mean when I can... foundry quests. It is because it is a barrier to some good prospective foundry authors. I think those who get to make good 5 star quests should be allowed to pick players who do not have to cross this barrier of playing unwillingly when their only interest is in the foundry.
And exactly what I am saying - laying the game has nothing to do with how you make the quest. There is an inbuilt ability to test your quest in a sandbox like environment in game.
Hence, if they are forced to put this barrier to the entry of new authors, there should be some way to remove it - like an established author being able to remove this barrier for others who he knows will help making foundry content.
I do not know why people are so opposed to it, even when it does not affect them.
EDIT:-
That is pretty much my last post on the issue. As I said, its a suggestion.
1) creating a bunch of accounts to get around Foundry slot limits, instead of buying the slots
2) a spammer creating accounts to use the UGC notice boards as ad space
Cryptic has a vested interest in preventing both of those things.
I just don't buy this argument that expecting someone to play a game for a few hours before making UGC is some onerous requirement that's going to drive high-quality content creators away. I rather doubt that the population of people who want to make UGC for games they've never played, and in fact will refuse to make UGC if they must play even a minimal amount, is even remotely large enough to outweigh the above reasons to have it.
We just have very different experiences, then. *shrug* I'm offering a differing opinion than yours, true. But it's no less valid than your assessment that DMs will refuse on principle. Most people played a 20+ hour campaign in NWN (equivalent to level 40 in this game) and then went on to make awesome levels for the community. And that was a LOT of people. At least 20 different award-winning contributors that I knew (personally).
I'm basing my experience off of a toolset which is identical in context to the tile-based Foundry. Events will be more limited, as will the events available. I've lowered my expectations. I've trained up a lot of content creators, quest-creators and whatnot. There were very few that didn't log any hours whatsoever in the client that they were designing a level for.
But I can tell you from the Foundry video, for sure, I'll be more familiar with what to do than someone who has not worked in the NWN toolset at all. Because she's using some very similar commands to manipulate the environment. Hell, even the window layout looks VERY similar, as well as the asset list at the side (areas).
Actually, all of my response is rather pointless. You say "people will refuse on principle to play to level 15 to use the Foundry". I disagree, and know notable exceptions to this statement. An entire community of exceptions, actually.
You confuse me. How do you expect somebody to make quality content when they don't even know how to play the game? Level 15 cap out of 60 seam very reasonable.