If you want to outright ignore the actions of the very people you're defending, that's fine. But don't sit there and tell me or anyone else that everything is going to happen exactly as they're telling us. The people doing the talking don't have the best track record for honesty.
I am not defending them, but I hate people who cry wolf over nothing. It reduces the effect of real protest over real things when actual wrong is being committed.
And if you don't understand how a publisher for project controls release date, no need to throw A-word profanities down here.
Working on many projects over years, I have come to realize that ****... things do happen ever so often. What is important and decides the alignment of a team is intentions - for we can never actually find out what difficulties they faced. For me, I would be happy if the dev team remains ambitious. For now they are - they even talk about persistent worlds down the line in far future. Now that may never come to fruition, but devs have something to think about for far ahead and it will keep them interested and motivated.
As far as STO/CO goes, I don't really see the fault of devs anywhere. Fault of marketing, fault of publishers - yes. But not the fault of dev team. And the old publishers are gone and this is a new start.
you have to realize how cryptic works...there s only a handful of dev specifically working on developing NWO, everyone else is moving from one game to another to work on a set project/new feature etc...and in the background the same people who developed STO/CO in a role or another are in charge...
now i m also glad the current dev team has dreams and projects for this game...but once again from experience they also use this as a marketing scheme to keep players interested and giving them hope so they stick around a bit longer. i know a few features which never saw the light, put on the back burner for a reason or another or being developed and implemented in the game but end up totally useless...fault of forward thinking.
Yes NWO has a different core dev team, yes the owner/publisher is different but the same people are running the company...
I honestly don t expect NWO to come out very fleshed out but with a lot of limitation and missing features...but with a lot of promises from the dev team... A game with a D&D name, looking like D&D but without a D&D feel. Hopefully i am wrong.
At least if NWO does not come out as bug ridden as STO was...it s a bonus.
I am not defending them, but I hate people who cry wolf over nothing. It reduces the effect of real protest over real things when actual wrong is being committed.
And if you don't understand how a publisher for project controls release date, no need to throw A-word profanities down here.
Publisher release dead line is one thing...jedidethfreak and myself are not only talking about pre launch broken promises but how cryptic has been handling their games in general pre and post launch, the publisher/owner is only interested that cryptic is making them money, anyway cryptic wants.
plus is not about crying wolf...how do you make up your mind on someone or a business...based on their past actions or their promises? what we are trying to say to people having great hope for this game is that cryptic has not a very good track record. the only good thing they are excellent at is character customization...but to me if the game is buggy, lacking of important features, repetitive and mindless... hmmmm
My main point is, devs are just the people who code. They do not make policy decisions. And if you have a look at CoH/CoV, CO and STO - development of game is not really too bad. Compare STO to say, SW:TOR - both being star-merchandizes with a fanbase. My friends who do like star based games like STO more than SW:TOR even when they used to like old starwars games(dark jedi apprentice and all) more.
Smilarly, CO has a lot of powers which are not easy on a engine like their's to emulate - swinging, flying and all that. Similarly, STO is definately not perfect but its controls are very very customizable - you can change ini file for most of things.
So dev team is not at fault. That one thing should be something we can agree on.
Regarding marketing, I am not very fond of them as I have already said so near an year back, but they have changed their policies after getting grabbed by PWE. There are unkept promises from Stormshade's side but there are reasons - delays. And frankly I am happy for delays as that assures me this wont be a Daggerdale.
Lastly about PWE, I am very happy that they allowed devs to make it MMO instead of Co-op. Many people left the forums due to that reason at that time calling PWE names, but PWE later gave more money for game's development - i.e. they invested in it. This shows it is not a game which they plan to run for 2 years and get profit like A**** would have done with it but are looking at it for other reasons.
I suspect other reason is to make a brand name of PWE and push other games while keeping this game iconic. Otherwise no way they would have released funds to delay the release so much.
So in the end, what I am saying is - we have good devs, bad marketing team but it is new and this is their first time doing marketing with new strategy(though people are same) and finally a new publisher who is investing in this game. Ofcourse PWE will want its investment back, any buisnessman would, but the amount of money they have invested shows it is not a use-and-throw game for them but a long term brand-ambassador type of game.
We have to wait and watch.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So in the end, what I am saying is - we have good devs, bad marketing team but it is new and this is their first time doing marketing with new strategy(though people are same) and finally a new publisher who is investing in this game. Ofcourse PWE will want its investment back, any buisnessman would, but the amount of money they have invested shows it is not a use-and-throw game for them but a long term brand-ambassador type of game.
Very interesting analyze. Anyway if we go back in history yes Cryptic has not perfect record with success in games. That said companies change staff learn to do new things and hire new talents etc. All those old games are certainly not wasted because they have learned a lot how to create games.
Lets analyze what we have. This game has the potential to be my favorite game for years. About story the genious thing is that
A. Cooperation both ways with WOTC.
B. Players will be able to create both PvE content and later also after release PvP Battlegrounds.
Do not underestimate the power of community and creators. NeverwinterNights 1 did not have great main story as old Baldurs Gate. That said the true greatness of NeverwinterNights came out with community created content.
Anyway with R.A Salvatore and WOTC and Cryptic cooperation yes mainstory has potential to be great, but you should remember this is Action MMO. Cryptic has really impressed me with Neverwinter so far. Yes we can wait and see, but so far it looks excellent in my eyes. Ok so they need more time? So be it. I am fine if this game would be released even in late December 2013.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
and in the background the same people who developed STO/CO in a role or another are in charge...
This one small line defines the issue...
The same people are not in charge. Publishers/Investors are the people in charge and not game developers.
For all intensive purposes Cryptic Studios at this very moment is under complete control of Perfect World Entertainment. As they are the main investors of Neverwinter they have a huge say in thing such as the release date, marketing strategy and most importantly how much money can be invested into features after launch.
This is the role "The A-Word" used to play.
As much as some of the changes *coughs*Lockboxes*coughs* have been controversial at best STO and CO Players have said they have noticed a noticeable increase in content since the PWE purchase.
What Gillrmn is saying is that Cryptic can't be held 100% accountable for the issues with STO/CO because they were not in charge. You can't say Neverwinter will be abandoned after launch because STO/CO was because truly that is, first and foremost, the fault of the publishers and investors; Not Developers.
This is the first game Cryptic has developed with PWE as the publisher. There's no track record to compare it to.
I am not defending them, but I hate people who cry wolf over nothing. It reduces the effect of real protest over real things when actual wrong is being committed.
How is me pointing out that every dev statement you point to as proof they'll do an awesome job was said about their last two games (in some cases verbatim) and it turned out in both of those cases they AT BEST were disingenuous and in some cases they OUTRIGHT LIED "crying wolf over nothing?"
If you caught your girlfriend cheating on you twice with two different people, all the while telling you over and over that she's never been with anyone else and/or saying she'll never do it again, are you still just going to take the words at face value and never question her?
And if you don't understand how a publisher for project controls release date, no need to throw A-word profanities down here.
This part actually suggests that you don't know the story of STO's development. You see, Cryptic DID assign their own development schedule. Cryptic went to CBS in an attempt to get a license for STO, selling to CBS the idea that they'd have the game feature-complete and launched within two years. That's the only reason they got the license, since CBS had been shopping the license around for a Star Trek MMO for almost a decade by that point, with a few missed starts along the way. Atari, the publisher for STO, was not involved in any way. That was all Cryptic. Realistically, you can argue that it's yet another promise Cryptic made that they broke. So, as I stated, which you - again - refused to let sink in, is that you can't just blame publishers and marketing for Cryptic's failures.
How is me pointing out that every dev statement you point to as proof they'll do an awesome job was said about their last two games (in some cases verbatim) and it turned out in both of those cases they AT BEST were disingenuous and in some cases they OUTRIGHT LIED "crying wolf over nothing?"
If you caught your girlfriend cheating on you twice with two different people, all the while telling you over and over that she's never been with anyone else and/or saying she'll never do it again, are you still just going to take the words at face value and never question her?
This part actually suggests that you don't know the story of STO's development. You see, Cryptic DID assign their own development schedule. Cryptic went to CBS in an attempt to get a license for STO, selling to CBS the idea that they'd have the game feature-complete and launched within two years. That's the only reason they got the license, since CBS had been shopping the license around for a Star Trek MMO for almost a decade by that point, with a few missed starts along the way. Atari, the publisher for STO, was not involved in any way. That was all Cryptic. Realistically, you can argue that it's yet another promise Cryptic made that they broke. So, as I stated, which you - again - refused to let sink in, is that you can't just blame publishers and marketing for Cryptic's failures.
You know guy I have issues with cryptic as well....bu all of your post seems to be about the same thing at the end of the day.
We get it, you think cryptic lies, they sell power and so forth and so on...do you have anything new to add to the discussion?
How is me pointing out that every dev statement you point to as proof they'll do an awesome job was said about their last two games (in some cases verbatim) and it turned out in both of those cases they AT BEST were disingenuous and in some cases they OUTRIGHT LIED "crying wolf over nothing?"
If you caught your girlfriend cheating on you twice with two different people, all the while telling you over and over that she's never been with anyone else and/or saying she'll never do it again, are you still just going to take the words at face value and never question her?
This part actually suggests that you don't know the story of STO's development. You see, Cryptic DID assign their own development schedule. Cryptic went to CBS in an attempt to get a license for STO, selling to CBS the idea that they'd have the game feature-complete and launched within two years. That's the only reason they got the license, since CBS had been shopping the license around for a Star Trek MMO for almost a decade by that point, with a few missed starts along the way. Atari, the publisher for STO, was not involved in any way. That was all Cryptic. Realistically, you can argue that it's yet another promise Cryptic made that they broke. So, as I stated, which you - again - refused to let sink in, is that you can't just blame publishers and marketing for Cryptic's failures.
girlfr... Oh dear Selune!
I will just be quite about this now to not cause any drama.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If Ford has developed a car few years ago named Alpha and asked some test drivers some feedback but still decide to sell the car without taking into account anything from the test driver...it s a bit annoying...
few years later Ford decides to develop a car named Beta and does the same, ask for feedback but does not do anything with it...
..but once again from experience they also use this as a marketing scheme to keep players interested and giving them hope so they stick around a bit longer. i know a few features which never saw the light, put on the back burner for a reason or another or being developed and implemented in the game but end up totally useless...fault of forward thinking.
Yes NWO has a different core dev team, yes the owner/publisher is different but the same people are running the company...
I honestly don t expect NWO to come out very fleshed out but with a lot of limitation and missing features...but with a lot of promises from the dev team... A game with a D&D name, looking like D&D but without a D&D feel. Hopefully i am wrong.
At least if NWO does not come out as bug ridden as STO was...it s a bonus.
Publisher release dead line is one thing...jedidethfreak and myself are not only talking about pre launch broken promises but how cryptic has been handling their games in general pre and post launch, the publisher/owner is only interested that cryptic is making them money, anyway cryptic wants.
plus is not about crying wolf...how do you make up your mind on someone or a business...based on their past actions or their promises? what we are trying to say to people having great hope for this game is that cryptic has not a very good track record. the only good thing they are excellent at is character customization...but to me if the game is buggy, lacking of important features, repetitive and mindless... hmmmm
This one small line defines the issue...
The same people are not in charge. Publishers/Investors are the people in charge and not game developers.
For all intensive purposes Cryptic Studios at this very moment is under complete control of Perfect World Entertainment. As they are the main investors of Neverwinter they have a huge say in thing such as the release date, marketing strategy and most importantly how much money can be invested into features after launch.
This is the role "The A-Word" used to play.
As much as some of the changes *coughs*Lockboxes*coughs* have been controversial at best STO and CO Players have said they have noticed a noticeable increase in content since the PWE purchase.
What Gillrmn is saying is that Cryptic can't be held 100% accountable for the issues with STO/CO because they were not in charge. You can't say Neverwinter will be abandoned after launch because STO/CO was because truly that is, first and foremost, the fault of the publishers and investors; Not Developers.
This is the first game Cryptic has developed with PWE as the publisher. There's no track record to compare it to.
The Alpha car has been tested for some time now and they are reshaping the concept car nicely based on the feedback. It's just that this little sticker on the agreement tst drive form called "NDA" means nbobody, developers included, can comment on things without prior company screened approval.
With marketing however....no, there's not a pole I can find long enough to touch this with, and you'll see later I'm not shy when it comes to blunt replies.
Now onto Ambi's response.
This is correct. Atari strangled the "control" from whom they owned, and tried to dominate those they didn't. Ask Cryptic, Turbine, Funcom. I'm trying to find a nice way to say they were and likely still are a dominating sneaky company that will do whatever it takes to get as much money and go to the next project while funding the bare minimum or less nicely, but having difficulty as money comes first to them.
It had to be said.
Look at what game they were allowed to keep after the "Agreement" to the settled Lawsuit. Notice anything about how the Daggerdale game played compared to all the other projects they "funded" before? But more on their promises and how it affected Cryptic later.
(And Gil, if you keep using Daggerdale, I keep using Atari.)
How is me pointing out that every dev statement you point to as proof they'll do an awesome job was said about their last two games (in some cases verbatim) and it turned out in both of those cases they AT BEST were disingenuous and in some cases they OUTRIGHT LIED "crying wolf over nothing?"
If you caught your girlfriend cheating on you twice with two different people, all the while telling you over and over that she's never been with anyone else and/or saying she'll never do it again, are you still just going to take the words at face value and never question her?
This part actually suggests that you don't know the story of STO's development. You see, Cryptic DID assign their own development schedule. Cryptic went to CBS in an attempt to get a license for STO, selling to CBS the idea that they'd have the game feature-complete and launched within two years. That's the only reason they got the license, since CBS had been shopping the license around for a Star Trek MMO for almost a decade by that point, with a few missed starts along the way. Atari, the publisher for STO, was not involved in any way. That was all Cryptic. Realistically, you can argue that it's yet another promise Cryptic made that they broke. So, as I stated, which you - again - refused to let sink in, is that you can't just blame publishers and marketing for Cryptic's failures.
Ahhh, selective arguing. Did you forget the bankruptcy abandonment of Perpetual Entertainment the previous developer for four years, and the promises Atari made to back Cryptic and Paramount if they did this and the miserly money given to Cryptic to "Develop" the NW game, so bad it Couldn't be called an MMO? I think the D&D Lawsuit speaks loads to that publisher's character, but look at some of the OTHER Launches Atari was funding the games for and as "well developed" as they were [due to funding]: DDO, AoC. So, those and STO all launched with half-assed content and had different DEVELOPERS yet the same PUBLISHER and ALL ended up the same way with the SAME funding?
You think Cryptic can make quality games when they get the support equitable of tree fiddy? But being owned by the Loch Ness Monster, they couldn't tell them to go away. Being sold to PWE and being GIVEN full support to make an MMO was a blessing second chance most companies never get.
And see how long it took badly marketed games like DDO and STO to recover with that poorly planned funding and marketing, including when the subscription was failing? Turbine was desperate, err, innovative enough to try the "Western Free to play" conversion and many people made the mistake of simply "copying and success formula." Cause like the movies, that works SOO well.
It brought freemium to many a user's lips, but not in a good way. It took of all things, PvP, mainly LoL to teach western and eastern gainers alike "pay to win" isn't the only F2P way that monetizes, and cosmetic CAN work. Still, many companies, including PWE see a quick boost and gamble it (pun intended) against the toxicity bachlash that ultra power or boxes will give them profit-wise. Now, allegedly, they are paying very close attention to metrcs and using it to see what works. I linked tons of articles already on this-okay, lots-before...I do benefit from having a small started repository earlier:
But all that is simple when starting (or restarting) from the beginning, not years after a launch and minimal staff and money.
And heck, I love Jack's innovation, but want to strangle him when it comes to IMPLEMENTATION methods. I want flying cars, but they'd expect a business plan before giving me funds for a project. Ideas are fine, if you have concrete plans to use them, not permanent wish-lists.
There, it had to be said. Keep his head in the clouds, but listen to our "feet on the ground" lead Cryptic team members when it comes to actual released dates and features.
And see, they learned how badly a rep is tarnished and are trying to do things right when it comes to making this MMO.
The rest I've detailed in other replies here. I hope my meager info is adequate to look at the situation with no chips on any people's shoulders. But if someone is too biased and labels what they see as their experience, I understand if I can't convince people otherwise, even if it's the truth.
But all this discussion when it comes to the finished product means nothing. I'll let the game, the players and the Cryptic company do the talking. If nothing changes, we have our answers then. They got a second chance and that was it.
But if they make something better than what was...like before when they were Heroes, we have our answer then and they grew at the opportunity after all when given money and development support.
Regardless of Cryptic's past, all they can do is try to be better developers in the future. Let's judge them by their games instead of villifying the real people who work endlessly to provide us with entertainment. Lessons can be learned and development studios can change, but personal attacks only harm that process.
Ahhh, selective arguing. Did you forget the bankruptcy abandonment of Perpetual Entertainment the previous developer for four years, and the promises Atari made to back Cryptic and Paramount if they did this
No, I didn't forget. However, none of that matters with my point - Atari may have promised to front some cash, but there wouldn't have been a need to front ANY cash if it weren't for CRYPTIC saying they'd make the game all on their own in two years.
You think Cryptic can make quality games when they get the support equitable of tree fiddy? But being owned by the Loch Ness Monster, they couldn't tell them to go away. Being sold to PWE and being GIVEN full support to make an MMO was a blessing second chance most companies never get.
It's actually their fourth chance. CoX was their first, then Champions, then STO, and now NW. That's three different producers, four different games, and the same promises on all of them.
And see, they learned how badly a rep is tarnished and are trying to do things right when it comes to making this MMO.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. They're saying and doing the exact same thing as they've done twice before, yet you are sitting here trying to tell me that things are different, solely because there's a different company behind them.
Burying your head in the sand and pretending things are different with absolutely no proof isn't doing anyone any good.
No, I didn't forget. However, none of that matters with my point - Atari may have promised to front some cash, but there wouldn't have been a need to front ANY cash if it weren't for CRYPTIC saying they'd make the game all on their own in two years.
It's actually their fourth chance. CoX was their first, then Champions, then STO, and now NW. That's three different producers, four different games, and the same promises on all of them.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. They're saying and doing the exact same thing as they've done twice before, yet you are sitting here trying to tell me that things are different, solely because there's a different company behind them.
Burying your head in the sand and pretending things are different with absolutely no proof isn't doing anyone any good.
Okay but kicking the same horse perpetually isn't doing anyone any good at all either......you just seem to be going in circles with your complaints.
Well I think a lot of people are hearing about it now, including quite a few who hadn't heard of it before. I heard about it through MMORPG.com Pokket did a video on it and that got me researching it. I really like the action rpg element to the combat, charging attacks up, etc. I think this game will definitely have legs under it and attract a lot of folks who are bored of other games and the ability for the community to create content using the level editor, tell stories through it, etc. will surely win hearts over.
Okay but kicking the same horse perpetually isn't doing anyone any good at all either......you just seem to be going in circles with your complaints.
Agreed! I'm sick of reading the kicking of the dead horse too! Let Cryptic make this game and pass your judgement on them after you get your hands on it, people and companies make mistakes and learn from them, that's life. I for one would like to see more positive comments at this point after reading the negative doom sayers for well over two years.
Agreed! I'm sick of reading the kicking of the dead horse too! Let Cryptic make this game and pass your judgement on them after you get your hands on it, people and companies make mistakes and learn from them, that's life. I for one would like to see more positive comments at this point after reading the negative doom sayers for well over two years.
Well, I may be new here and love the NW books I have read through the years and really would like to see this game rock the MMo genre....BUT, I remember all the let downs and outright lies and half-truths that Cryptic landed the STO community with......It STILL leaves a bad taste in my mouth, considering it was one of the best known IP's out there and they trashed their chance to make a great MMo and could not deliver. I for one ALWAYS read between the lines when Cryptic speaks, expect the best and plan for the worst is now my mantra
I really do hope all they doom-sayers are wrong but its unlikely.
STO and CO are both still making profits. Even when A**** sold cryptic, both the titles were making profit (A*** didn't have money even to invest in something which was making profit).
Comparing STO with SW, it still comes on top. CO is also one of the popular among its genre.
Both are regarded as AAA.
They have also withstood the recession times.
~~~~
Both these titles are hence successful titles. People may complain to make those titles better, it doesn't change the fact they are still floating even after so many storms. That is something to consider.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No, I didn't forget. However, none of that matters with my point - Atari may have promised to front some cash, but there wouldn't have been a need to front ANY cash if it weren't for CRYPTIC saying they'd make the game all on their own in two years.
It's actually their fourth chance. CoX was their first, then Champions, then STO, and now NW. That's three different producers, four different games, and the same promises on all of them.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. They're saying and doing the exact same thing as they've done twice before, yet you are sitting here trying to tell me that things are different, solely because there's a different company behind them.
Burying your head in the sand and pretending things are different with absolutely no proof isn't doing anyone any good.
Well, allow me to be as blunt as some replies and see if it's liked returned:
Proof things haven't changed or your accusations never happened!
See I can type with a chip on my shoulder too!
Try using concrete and current examples or the head burred in the and is your own.
And shame on you for letting that dead horse be beaten!
Well, allow me to be as blunt as some replies and see if it's liked returned:
Proof things haven't changed or your accusations never happened!
See I can type with a chip on my shoulder too!
Try using concrete and current examples or the head burred in the and is your own.
And shame on you for letting that dead horse be beaten!
Ha Truthseeker, why don t you prove us that things have changed then? As far as i know, until proven over wise or giving the benefit of the doubt, generally people tend to make an assessment based on their previous experiences no?
You don t seem to have the knowledge or the experience of the last cryptic games. I would not expect you to doubt their words even if some people with previous Cryptic experience warned you that cryptic dev are not to be trusted blindly. if you were doubting of cryptic dev publicly you would most likely lose your privileges.
I think that it basically the message we want to pass onto other people. The same way you might have said to some other people that you had bad experience with a company customer services after trying it twice or 3 times.
That is the whole problem. Blind trust is a vice - hence the correction should be solve it. It has nothing to do with cryptic.
Peeople just read something and attach expectations to it of their own. Many of the times it does not have to do much with cryptic at all. The recent PC Mag is a case in study. Cryptic never said it will give you beta date or beta key. They were rumors. Though mount did end up giving beta key too.
Not only blind trust - but excessive listening is also a problem. People listen/read what has not been said/written and assume thing because they want or or hope to.
Ha Truthseeker, why don t you prove us that things have changed then? As far as i know, until proven over wise or giving the benefit of the doubt, generally people tend to make an assessment based on their previous experiences no?
You don t seem to have the knowledge or the experience of the last cryptic games. I would not expect you to doubt their words even if some people with previous Cryptic experience warned you that cryptic dev are not to be trusted blindly. if you were doubting of cryptic dev publicly you would most likely lose your privileges.
I think that it basically the message we want to pass onto other people. The same way you might have said to some other people that you had bad experience with a company customer services after trying it twice or 3 times.
NO one challenges the all knowing Truthseeker!!
*Ok guys I couldn't help but say that when it came to my mind(it is kind of a joke), proceed with your normal argument*
NO one challenges the all knowing Truthseeker!!
...
It is pretty easy to prove. I am afraid there is a cargo drop of text with quotes coming and poor readymeal is gonna get buried in quotes and references.
No, I dont feel like it is, in fact for me, its quite the opposite, more interest, more anticipation.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2013
Bottom line is this can't go anywhere. Some of you don't trust Cryptic/PWE..Others do...
This mindless bickering has to stop. It's really tiresome.
We can't promise or prove things have changed as they won't be able to convince people until after the game is released.
The change from Atari t PWE opens up a whole world of possibilities that only ignorance can dismiss. Publishers control the game development more than the developers and that is a fact. The Dev's only do their best to create what they can with what they have.
If you don't want to believe there was a chance for change, so be it.
However posting the same close minded responses over and over again like you're quoting a Book of God isn't going to do anything to change the situation.
I'm all for criticism, I've done my fair share too, but repeating an opinion which serves only to bash Cryptic is derailing this thread and others.
Consider that discussion closed.
I think Neverwinter did lose it's steam for a short while there but I believe Cryptic is ready to put that coal back into the boiler. Choo choo! All Aboard!
Ha Truthseeker, why don t you prove us that things have changed then? As far as i know, until proven over wise or giving the benefit of the doubt, generally people tend to make an assessment based on their previous experiences no?
You don t seem to have the knowledge or the experience of the last cryptic games. I would not expect you to doubt their words even if some people with previous Cryptic experience warned you that cryptic dev are not to be trusted blindly. if you were doubting of cryptic dev publicly you would most likely lose your privileges.
I think that it basically the message we want to pass onto other people. The same way you might have said to some other people that you had bad experience with a company customer services after trying it twice or 3 times.
Bottom line is this can't go anywhere. Some of you don't trust Cryptic/PWE..Others do...
This mindless bickering has to stop. It's really tiresome.
We can't promise or prove things have changed as they won't be able to convince people until after the game is released.
The change from Atari t PWE opens up a whole world of possibilities that only ignorance can dismiss. Publishers control the game development more than the developers and that is a fact. The Dev's only do their best to create what they can with what they have.
If you don't want to believe there was a chance for change, so be it.
However posting the same close minded responses over and over again like you're quoting a Book of God isn't going to do anything to change the situation.
I'm all for criticism, I've done my fair share too, but repeating an opinion which serves only to bash Cryptic is derailing this thread and others.
Consider that discussion closed.
I think Neverwinter did lose it's steam for a short while there but I believe Cryptic is ready to put that coal back into the boiler. Choo choo! All Aboard!
I will say I have downloaded and played Cryptic's other recent games to level cap and actually been involved for years but , but am dropping it and consider this matter closed and will comply with these wishes.
...i think this current topic could be related to why they don t talk too much about the game features etc...they are trying to avoid what happened with their last games... nobody can accuse them of anything if they stay quiet...
And young Joshua brought a staff - an oak one to his grandfather. His grandfather looked at it and said, it will work fine. joshua was very happy with his staff. And he told his grandfather that it was the best staff in the world.
His grandfather thought and said, "Well there exists blackwood - very brittle like a crystal. It makes the best staff". So Joshua travelled to the other end of the garden and brought the blackwood.
The grandfather was old, while forging the staff, his strength gave away and he fell. It caused the staff to shatter. Grandfather looked at Joshua and said, "How unfortunate! Peanut Butter!"
But Joshua was not pacified he cried and cried. Now I can never use magic!
Grandfather pointed at the old staff, but Joshua would not look at it. Then Joshua ran away - back inside the house in his bed - for he could never stand Grandfather while Grandfather was applying ointment to his wounds.
I'm still as excited as ever about the game. I just hope we get a little something to hold us over for the weekend. Man weekends have never been so long =/
Mmorpg.com lol, that cesspit of mods and doomsayers is hardly a way to measure whether NeverWinters is dead. MMO gamer's today are really just journeymen MMO gamer's who go from one MMO to another. Gone are the days when a beta really was a beta instead of a pre-order promotion.
Take ArcheAge which has just finished open beta in Korea. That game went through 5 betas stretching over a period of 2.5 years finishing with an open beta.
And gamer's and devs wonder why we in the west are in trouble when it comes to MMO'S
As someone who just started following the game. Im looking forward to playing it.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2013
The reception at mmorpg.com seems to be cautiously optimistic, actually.
Neverwinter seems pretty highly anticipated at every media outlet I've seen so far, tho not without reservation.
Comments
I am not defending them, but I hate people who cry wolf over nothing. It reduces the effect of real protest over real things when actual wrong is being committed.
And if you don't understand how a publisher for project controls release date, no need to throw A-word profanities down here.
you have to realize how cryptic works...there s only a handful of dev specifically working on developing NWO, everyone else is moving from one game to another to work on a set project/new feature etc...and in the background the same people who developed STO/CO in a role or another are in charge...
now i m also glad the current dev team has dreams and projects for this game...but once again from experience they also use this as a marketing scheme to keep players interested and giving them hope so they stick around a bit longer. i know a few features which never saw the light, put on the back burner for a reason or another or being developed and implemented in the game but end up totally useless...fault of forward thinking.
Yes NWO has a different core dev team, yes the owner/publisher is different but the same people are running the company...
I honestly don t expect NWO to come out very fleshed out but with a lot of limitation and missing features...but with a lot of promises from the dev team... A game with a D&D name, looking like D&D but without a D&D feel. Hopefully i am wrong.
At least if NWO does not come out as bug ridden as STO was...it s a bonus.
Publisher release dead line is one thing...jedidethfreak and myself are not only talking about pre launch broken promises but how cryptic has been handling their games in general pre and post launch, the publisher/owner is only interested that cryptic is making them money, anyway cryptic wants.
plus is not about crying wolf...how do you make up your mind on someone or a business...based on their past actions or their promises? what we are trying to say to people having great hope for this game is that cryptic has not a very good track record. the only good thing they are excellent at is character customization...but to me if the game is buggy, lacking of important features, repetitive and mindless... hmmmm
My main point is, devs are just the people who code. They do not make policy decisions. And if you have a look at CoH/CoV, CO and STO - development of game is not really too bad. Compare STO to say, SW:TOR - both being star-merchandizes with a fanbase. My friends who do like star based games like STO more than SW:TOR even when they used to like old starwars games(dark jedi apprentice and all) more.
Smilarly, CO has a lot of powers which are not easy on a engine like their's to emulate - swinging, flying and all that. Similarly, STO is definately not perfect but its controls are very very customizable - you can change ini file for most of things.
So dev team is not at fault. That one thing should be something we can agree on.
Regarding marketing, I am not very fond of them as I have already said so near an year back, but they have changed their policies after getting grabbed by PWE. There are unkept promises from Stormshade's side but there are reasons - delays. And frankly I am happy for delays as that assures me this wont be a Daggerdale.
Lastly about PWE, I am very happy that they allowed devs to make it MMO instead of Co-op. Many people left the forums due to that reason at that time calling PWE names, but PWE later gave more money for game's development - i.e. they invested in it. This shows it is not a game which they plan to run for 2 years and get profit like A**** would have done with it but are looking at it for other reasons.
I suspect other reason is to make a brand name of PWE and push other games while keeping this game iconic. Otherwise no way they would have released funds to delay the release so much.
So in the end, what I am saying is - we have good devs, bad marketing team but it is new and this is their first time doing marketing with new strategy(though people are same) and finally a new publisher who is investing in this game. Ofcourse PWE will want its investment back, any buisnessman would, but the amount of money they have invested shows it is not a use-and-throw game for them but a long term brand-ambassador type of game.
We have to wait and watch.
Lets analyze what we have. This game has the potential to be my favorite game for years. About story the genious thing is that
A. Cooperation both ways with WOTC.
B. Players will be able to create both PvE content and later also after release PvP Battlegrounds.
Do not underestimate the power of community and creators. NeverwinterNights 1 did not have great main story as old Baldurs Gate. That said the true greatness of NeverwinterNights came out with community created content.
Anyway with R.A Salvatore and WOTC and Cryptic cooperation yes mainstory has potential to be great, but you should remember this is Action MMO. Cryptic has really impressed me with Neverwinter so far. Yes we can wait and see, but so far it looks excellent in my eyes. Ok so they need more time? So be it. I am fine if this game would be released even in late December 2013.
This one small line defines the issue...
The same people are not in charge. Publishers/Investors are the people in charge and not game developers.
For all intensive purposes Cryptic Studios at this very moment is under complete control of Perfect World Entertainment. As they are the main investors of Neverwinter they have a huge say in thing such as the release date, marketing strategy and most importantly how much money can be invested into features after launch.
This is the role "The A-Word" used to play.
As much as some of the changes *coughs*Lockboxes*coughs* have been controversial at best STO and CO Players have said they have noticed a noticeable increase in content since the PWE purchase.
What Gillrmn is saying is that Cryptic can't be held 100% accountable for the issues with STO/CO because they were not in charge. You can't say Neverwinter will be abandoned after launch because STO/CO was because truly that is, first and foremost, the fault of the publishers and investors; Not Developers.
This is the first game Cryptic has developed with PWE as the publisher. There's no track record to compare it to.
How is me pointing out that every dev statement you point to as proof they'll do an awesome job was said about their last two games (in some cases verbatim) and it turned out in both of those cases they AT BEST were disingenuous and in some cases they OUTRIGHT LIED "crying wolf over nothing?"
If you caught your girlfriend cheating on you twice with two different people, all the while telling you over and over that she's never been with anyone else and/or saying she'll never do it again, are you still just going to take the words at face value and never question her?
This part actually suggests that you don't know the story of STO's development. You see, Cryptic DID assign their own development schedule. Cryptic went to CBS in an attempt to get a license for STO, selling to CBS the idea that they'd have the game feature-complete and launched within two years. That's the only reason they got the license, since CBS had been shopping the license around for a Star Trek MMO for almost a decade by that point, with a few missed starts along the way. Atari, the publisher for STO, was not involved in any way. That was all Cryptic. Realistically, you can argue that it's yet another promise Cryptic made that they broke. So, as I stated, which you - again - refused to let sink in, is that you can't just blame publishers and marketing for Cryptic's failures.
You know guy I have issues with cryptic as well....bu all of your post seems to be about the same thing at the end of the day.
We get it, you think cryptic lies, they sell power and so forth and so on...do you have anything new to add to the discussion?
girlfr... Oh dear Selune!
I will just be quite about this now to not cause any drama.
The Alpha car has been tested for some time now and they are reshaping the concept car nicely based on the feedback. It's just that this little sticker on the agreement tst drive form called "NDA" means nbobody, developers included, can comment on things without prior company screened approval.
With marketing however....no, there's not a pole I can find long enough to touch this with, and you'll see later I'm not shy when it comes to blunt replies.
Now onto Ambi's response.
This is correct. Atari strangled the "control" from whom they owned, and tried to dominate those they didn't. Ask Cryptic, Turbine, Funcom. I'm trying to find a nice way to say they were and likely still are a dominating sneaky company that will do whatever it takes to get as much money and go to the next project while funding the bare minimum or less nicely, but having difficulty as money comes first to them.
It had to be said.
Look at what game they were allowed to keep after the "Agreement" to the settled Lawsuit. Notice anything about how the Daggerdale game played compared to all the other projects they "funded" before? But more on their promises and how it affected Cryptic later.
(And Gil, if you keep using Daggerdale, I keep using Atari.)
Ahhh, selective arguing. Did you forget the bankruptcy abandonment of Perpetual Entertainment the previous developer for four years, and the promises Atari made to back Cryptic and Paramount if they did this and the miserly money given to Cryptic to "Develop" the NW game, so bad it Couldn't be called an MMO? I think the D&D Lawsuit speaks loads to that publisher's character, but look at some of the OTHER Launches Atari was funding the games for and as "well developed" as they were [due to funding]: DDO, AoC. So, those and STO all launched with half-assed content and had different DEVELOPERS yet the same PUBLISHER and ALL ended up the same way with the SAME funding?
You think Cryptic can make quality games when they get the support equitable of tree fiddy? But being owned by the Loch Ness Monster, they couldn't tell them to go away. Being sold to PWE and being GIVEN full support to make an MMO was a blessing second chance most companies never get.
And see how long it took badly marketed games like DDO and STO to recover with that poorly planned funding and marketing, including when the subscription was failing? Turbine was desperate, err, innovative enough to try the "Western Free to play" conversion and many people made the mistake of simply "copying and success formula." Cause like the movies, that works SOO well.
It brought freemium to many a user's lips, but not in a good way. It took of all things, PvP, mainly LoL to teach western and eastern gainers alike "pay to win" isn't the only F2P way that monetizes, and cosmetic CAN work. Still, many companies, including PWE see a quick boost and gamble it (pun intended) against the toxicity bachlash that ultra power or boxes will give them profit-wise. Now, allegedly, they are paying very close attention to metrcs and using it to see what works. I linked tons of articles already on this-okay, lots-before...I do benefit from having a small started repository earlier:
But all that is simple when starting (or restarting) from the beginning, not years after a launch and minimal staff and money.
And heck, I love Jack's innovation, but want to strangle him when it comes to IMPLEMENTATION methods. I want flying cars, but they'd expect a business plan before giving me funds for a project. Ideas are fine, if you have concrete plans to use them, not permanent wish-lists.
There, it had to be said. Keep his head in the clouds, but listen to our "feet on the ground" lead Cryptic team members when it comes to actual released dates and features.
And see, they learned how badly a rep is tarnished and are trying to do things right when it comes to making this MMO.
The rest I've detailed in other replies here. I hope my meager info is adequate to look at the situation with no chips on any people's shoulders. But if someone is too biased and labels what they see as their experience, I understand if I can't convince people otherwise, even if it's the truth.
But all this discussion when it comes to the finished product means nothing. I'll let the game, the players and the Cryptic company do the talking. If nothing changes, we have our answers then. They got a second chance and that was it.
But if they make something better than what was...like before when they were Heroes, we have our answer then and they grew at the opportunity after all when given money and development support.
May the best game win.
No, I didn't forget. However, none of that matters with my point - Atari may have promised to front some cash, but there wouldn't have been a need to front ANY cash if it weren't for CRYPTIC saying they'd make the game all on their own in two years.
It's actually their fourth chance. CoX was their first, then Champions, then STO, and now NW. That's three different producers, four different games, and the same promises on all of them.
And this is exactly what I'm talking about. They're saying and doing the exact same thing as they've done twice before, yet you are sitting here trying to tell me that things are different, solely because there's a different company behind them.
Burying your head in the sand and pretending things are different with absolutely no proof isn't doing anyone any good.
Okay but kicking the same horse perpetually isn't doing anyone any good at all either......you just seem to be going in circles with your complaints.
Agreed! I'm sick of reading the kicking of the dead horse too! Let Cryptic make this game and pass your judgement on them after you get your hands on it, people and companies make mistakes and learn from them, that's life. I for one would like to see more positive comments at this point after reading the negative doom sayers for well over two years.
Well, I may be new here and love the NW books I have read through the years and really would like to see this game rock the MMo genre....BUT, I remember all the let downs and outright lies and half-truths that Cryptic landed the STO community with......It STILL leaves a bad taste in my mouth, considering it was one of the best known IP's out there and they trashed their chance to make a great MMo and could not deliver. I for one ALWAYS read between the lines when Cryptic speaks, expect the best and plan for the worst is now my mantra
I really do hope all they doom-sayers are wrong but its unlikely.
Comparing STO with SW, it still comes on top. CO is also one of the popular among its genre.
Both are regarded as AAA.
They have also withstood the recession times.
~~~~
Both these titles are hence successful titles. People may complain to make those titles better, it doesn't change the fact they are still floating even after so many storms. That is something to consider.
Well, allow me to be as blunt as some replies and see if it's liked returned:
Proof things haven't changed or your accusations never happened!
See I can type with a chip on my shoulder too!
Try using concrete and current examples or the head burred in the and is your own.
And shame on you for letting that dead horse be beaten!
Ha Truthseeker, why don t you prove us that things have changed then? As far as i know, until proven over wise or giving the benefit of the doubt, generally people tend to make an assessment based on their previous experiences no?
You don t seem to have the knowledge or the experience of the last cryptic games. I would not expect you to doubt their words even if some people with previous Cryptic experience warned you that cryptic dev are not to be trusted blindly. if you were doubting of cryptic dev publicly you would most likely lose your privileges.
I think that it basically the message we want to pass onto other people. The same way you might have said to some other people that you had bad experience with a company customer services after trying it twice or 3 times.
That is the whole problem. Blind trust is a vice - hence the correction should be solve it. It has nothing to do with cryptic.
Peeople just read something and attach expectations to it of their own. Many of the times it does not have to do much with cryptic at all. The recent PC Mag is a case in study. Cryptic never said it will give you beta date or beta key. They were rumors. Though mount did end up giving beta key too.
Not only blind trust - but excessive listening is also a problem. People listen/read what has not been said/written and assume thing because they want or or hope to.
NO one challenges the all knowing Truthseeker!!
*Ok guys I couldn't help but say that when it came to my mind(it is kind of a joke), proceed with your normal argument*
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
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It is pretty easy to prove. I am afraid there is a cargo drop of text with quotes coming and poor readymeal is gonna get buried in quotes and references.
'truthseeker you bully!'
This mindless bickering has to stop. It's really tiresome.
We can't promise or prove things have changed as they won't be able to convince people until after the game is released.
The change from Atari t PWE opens up a whole world of possibilities that only ignorance can dismiss. Publishers control the game development more than the developers and that is a fact. The Dev's only do their best to create what they can with what they have.
If you don't want to believe there was a chance for change, so be it.
However posting the same close minded responses over and over again like you're quoting a Book of God isn't going to do anything to change the situation.
I'm all for criticism, I've done my fair share too, but repeating an opinion which serves only to bash Cryptic is derailing this thread and others.
Consider that discussion closed.
I think Neverwinter did lose it's steam for a short while there but I believe Cryptic is ready to put that coal back into the boiler. Choo choo! All Aboard!
I will say I have downloaded and played Cryptic's other recent games to level cap and actually been involved for years but , but am dropping it and consider this matter closed and will comply with these wishes.
And young Joshua brought a staff - an oak one to his grandfather. His grandfather looked at it and said, it will work fine. joshua was very happy with his staff. And he told his grandfather that it was the best staff in the world.
His grandfather thought and said, "Well there exists blackwood - very brittle like a crystal. It makes the best staff". So Joshua travelled to the other end of the garden and brought the blackwood.
The grandfather was old, while forging the staff, his strength gave away and he fell. It caused the staff to shatter. Grandfather looked at Joshua and said, "How unfortunate! Peanut Butter!"
But Joshua was not pacified he cried and cried. Now I can never use magic!
Grandfather pointed at the old staff, but Joshua would not look at it. Then Joshua ran away - back inside the house in his bed - for he could never stand Grandfather while Grandfather was applying ointment to his wounds.
In short, less QQ more pew pew
Take ArcheAge which has just finished open beta in Korea. That game went through 5 betas stretching over a period of 2.5 years finishing with an open beta.
And gamer's and devs wonder why we in the west are in trouble when it comes to MMO'S
Neverwinter seems pretty highly anticipated at every media outlet I've seen so far, tho not without reservation.