Elitism to think you are better then other people is not so good and laugh at other people. However nothing wrong with want to be best of best. You no I hate Guild Wars 2 with no end game. In less then 2 weeks you max you character in Guild Wars 2.
I agree with your comments on elitism. No matter how long I have played a game I strive not to insult or belittle less experienced players and I'd hope for a more mature attitude towards inexperienced players on a D&D game than you find in other MMO's.
However End Game means something different to every person. You're talking about End Game as high level content and with the Foundry there should be plenty of high level content to play!
The only thing I can stress is that D&D End Games aren't literal 'you beat the game' as so many believe. If Cryptic does their job there will be no way to 'beat' the game just as there is no way to 'beat' Pen and Paper D&D.
You're max level? Instead of playing a Human Fighter switch over to an Elven Wizard and try the game from that combat style. If this game is anything like NWN/NWN2 we shouldn't have any lack of UGC to keep things fresh. It won't be Diablo 3 grinding the same quests over and over and over again.
Also D&D is not a level one to max level game. Honestly, it often gets to a point that you get bored playing the high level character even before they reach maxed level.
My biggest advice to everybody worried about gameplay after max is to realize the truth, there is no max. Only the illusion.
Other endgame? Yes hard Dungeons and later PvP. However we no nothing about PvP except that it will be released much later after the release for Neverwinter. Maybe PvP comes 6-12 months after Neverwinter release.
Actually PvP will be released along with launch now due to the release delay. :-)
Actually PvP will be released along with launch now due to the release delay. :-)
Actually that the game would be postponed due to PvP release I really do not believe. The sponsor Perfect World said that Cryptic gets more time to polish the game(fix bugs etc.).
...
Other endgame? Yes hard Dungeons and later PvP. However we know nothing about PvP except that it will be released much later after the release for Neverwinter. Maybe PvP comes 6-12 months after Neverwinter release.
PvP will be at launch and was the primary reason for the delay in NW as quoted by devs (though I suspect that is not true, it must be due to PWE releasing funds as insinuated by SS for budget after they recognized the NW not as dark horse but primary game).
Also "PvP will be more of an endgame thing though whether to restrict it to arena or not is being worked out" according to Andy.
EDIT: @elewyndyl don't trust wikipedia over us. Our knowledge is greater and sharper due to 2 years of waiting.
if im able to vote most prob i wont vote for TS
for me i prefer epic lvl like areas where high lvl charaacter can venture into
for example
myth drannor for low lvl character will die if they try to venture in and high lvl character if alone
coz to me dnd and forgotten realms world is so wide and interesting to explore lots of possible routes for high lvl character like some who posted before end game is not really the end but the beginning for high lvl
just my two cents worth
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
PvP will be at launch and was the primary reason for the delay in NW as quoted by devs (though I suspect that is not true, it must be due to PWE releasing funds as insinuated by SS for budget after they recognized the NW not as dark horse but primary game).
Also "PvP will be more of an endgame thing though whether to restrict it to arena or not is being worked out" according to Andy.
EDIT: @elewyndyl don't trust wikipedia over us. Our knowledge is greater and sharper due to 2 years of waiting.
Hmm I think in some things you are sharper since some of you hear directly or indirectly what the developers say. You are correct that funding has to do with it also. To be honest how PW funds Cryptic is a bit mystery to me. I mean what profit do they get?
Here are my wild theories of additional funding... Alienware donated computers to Cryptic and in return they demand some advertising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrUCu21EtnM
In addition we also have WOTC which has very deep pockets. I am not saying WOTC pays Cryptic but they get lots of material and R.A. Salvatore supports the game. There are the book releases and the whole game is good PR for Dungeons Dragons.
Yeas funding is a bit mystery still... interesting.
Lets agree on one thing Neverwinter MMO is released 2013 and hopefully PvP is released at same time, but that remains to be seen.
... To be honest how PW funds Cryptic is a bit mystery to me. I mean what profit do they get?...
PW is publisher they get all the profits. In fact it is the best thing that happened to cryptic. Allow me to explain those good days of celebrity on forums in detail:-
*casting circle of protection from evil*
Atari used to be publisher of cryptic. Cryptic was profit making company, but Atari is a real game killer company. May they rot in courts with all those lawsuits from cryptic and turbine.
Even when cryptic games were profitable, they had to bend over to get funds. Then there was freedom of developers too. It was well known long before that cryptic wanted to make MMO, but Atari insisted on Co-op to cash in NWN success.
Then PWE -north american subsidy company of PWI bought cryptic. Now PWE became publishers of CO, STO and NW too since cryptic now works for PWE who pays them. They gave the devs freedom and allowed them to make NW a MMO. Devs were really happy and somewhere archived on forums you can find their comments.
So PWE gave them moneies for development cost because they thought - ok its a good investment. Then NW was recieved very well at PAX and stuff winning MMORPG.com and many other awards. So PWE gave them more funding. With more funding, cryptic thought - now we have money, lets make this game more polished so no one can criticize our baby.
Thats it in the nutshell.
WotC are not paying cryptic but they will get money from the game success as D&D IP belongs to them. However, unlike before, WotC has involved themselves very close to the development of game sharing pnp artwork and stuff. That maybe because no good D&D video game made it recently even when fantasy genre is number 1 these days.
Actually that the game would be postponed due to PvP release I really do not believe. The sponsor Perfect World said that Cryptic gets more time to polish the game(fix bugs etc.).
PvP will be in at launch due to the release delay. The launch delay was not because of PvP.
Cryptic requested permission to delay the release to polish up the PvE Game and The Foundry.
It just so happens that the delay lines up with the scheduled release of PvP as well.
Any ties to the game being delayed *because* of PvP is players hearing what they want to hear. No offense.
Side Note: In the video game industry dev groups work on different projects simultaneously. Of course things could work differently at Cryptic but typically things aren't designed in a linear fashion. I can assure you that they won't be done with the PvE game in Jan and delay the launch to then develop PvP. Both are actively being worked on now.
PvP will be in at launch due to the release delay. The launch delay was not because of PvP.
...
Any ties to the game being delayed *because* of PvP is players hearing what they want to hear. No offense.
..
"The PvP was one of the main reason for delay". One of the video of devs after the delay specifically says so. Also maybe its just better to link the statements itself to lay to rest that PvP will be included at launch.
Link:-
Also, my conspiracy theory if you read between the SS lines:-
Originally Posted by stormshade
Hey folks,
I understand the disappointment regarding the release date. We were pushing pretty hard for a 2012 release.
However, after seeing the reaction to Neverwinter, which has been incredibly positive, both on the forums here, FaceBook, and at PAX East and E3, we decided it may be beneficial to take a few extra months to make Neverwinter an even better game at release.
This is a truly great thing for Neverwinter, and Cryptic Studios. We havn't had the luxury of being able to delay a game to ensure the highest quality possible release in some time. Having Perfect World, and WotC, both agree to allow us to take that extra time is truly a blessing.
We'll be able to make Neverwinter a much better game with these extra few months, and provide a fuller, richer set of features than we would have previously.
while not entirely over the moon at any launch delay, it does please me that they are working hard on ensuring PvP is done well and available at launch.
having a strong PvP system in place is an important ingredient for a successfull launch of any MMO game.
P.S. if any of the devs read this, please review the first 6 months of RIFT by Trion as a guide on how to do it right, post launch. additionaly, review the first 6 months of SWTOR by Bioware for how to do it wrong.
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
while not entirely over the moon at any launch delay, it does please me that they are working hard on ensuring PvP is done well and available at launch.
having a strong PvP system in place is an important ingredient for a successfull launch of any MMO game.
P.S. if any of the devs read this, please review the first 6 months of RIFT by Trion as a guide on how to do it right, post launch. additionaly, review the first 6 months of SWTOR by Bioware for how to do it wrong.
While PvP is good Guild Wars 2 have certainly showed that PvP alone is not good enough for endgame. There should be good PvE content and not ridiculous easy reach Powerplateau(=maxed character can not get more powerful) in less then 2 weeks like in Guild Wars 2. The powerprogression do not need to be so hardcore as WOW(everlasting lootmill never max your character), but neither so extreme casual as Guild Wars 2. Also I stick to my conclusion that 10 people raids could add more good stuff to the PvE world.
Yes I like the FOUNDRY, but I don't buy the philosophy lets roll another character simply(unless it takes a loooong time to reach Powerplateau) or that there is no endgame. Endgame exist! Sure I like the journey and lots of low-mid level adventures, but that remains my conclusion.
The endgame is perhaps one of the most important features that game designers should take into account and plan for accordingly. Despite game designers best efforts, players will reach endgame in very short order, history has proven this to be true time and time again. While beta testing a recent game, I immediately came to the realization that hard core players would reach endgame content well before the developers suspected, I wrote a lenghty reply to my gaming experience to the developers on that very topic. And sure enough, players blew through the content, then turned on the developers, demanding to know what was next. The game lost subscriptions at an alarming rate and is now widely considered to be an epic failure.
The notion that building alts can take away some of issues surrounding endgame content just doesn't sit right with me. In every game that I've played, I have typically built several alts and leveled them as well. It got old fast, repeating the same quests for each character, going through the same map spaces, killing the same mobs. I've started in other starter areas, rolled different types of characters, and I've still had the same issues..repetetive quests. The Foundry may relieve some of that tedium, but it remains to be seen.
I intend to play this game for a long time to come and I do hope that the message presented here by the potential players of this game is heard. The developers need to look at the endgame, build their game with the knowledge that it will be reached quickly by players, and plan accordingly.
I don't know what the answer is. Slowing down character progression is one mechanic that can be employed certainly, but you risk losing player interest in the slow grind. I'm certain there is a happy medium that can be achieved though in that area. What else can be done, I'm not sure. Heroic type raids at the endgame is another area that will have appeal to some players and be ignored by others. I do think it should be included, but again, it is not the only solution to this issue.
I am looking forward to playing this game. I am looking forward to meeting the members of this forum in game and adventuring with them. Frankly, I hope this is the last game that I play, I believe that it has the makings of an awesome game, both now and well into the future.
My Best,
Ezra Steel
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nemesis788450Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
While PvP is good Guild Wars 2 have certainly showed that PvP alone is not good enough for endgame. There should be good PvE content and not ridiculous easy reach Powerplateau(=maxed character can not get more powerful) in less then 2 weeks like in Guild Wars 2. The powerprogression do not need to be so hardcore as WOW(everlasting lootmill never max your character), but neither so extreme casual as Guild Wars 2. Also I stick to my conclusion that 10 people raids could add more good stuff to the PvE world.
Yes I like the FOUNDRY, but I don't buy the philosophy lets roll another character simply(unless it takes a loooong time to reach Powerplateau) or that there is no endgame. Endgame exist! Sure I like the journey and lots of low-mid level adventures, but that remains my conclusion.
i imaging this game to have a stronger end game then most theme park games (sand boxes are better due to their sieging etc.) - because there will be a lot of user generated content and all the user will want to make even bigger and better dungeons and quests...on the other hand, everything will be instanced...this game will be very very far away from a sandbox game...it will basically be a quest based instance game, thats why i would assume the endgame to be better then a standard theme park, but the middle game to be worse due to lack of story
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
i imaging this game to have a stronger end game then most theme park games (sand boxes are better due to their sieging etc.) - because there will be a lot of user generated content and all the user will want to make even bigger and better dungeons and quests...on the other hand, everything will be instanced...this game will be very very far away from a sandbox game...it will basically be a quest based instance game, thats why i would assume the endgame to be better then a standard theme park, but the middle game to be worse due to lack of story
Well it is marketed as Action MMORPG. That said there will be some kind of main story and you can find/access main story content easily. I am fine with that because I have never liked big sandbox games like Elder Scrolls where you are confused what to do. As in story for user created instances I am sure at least some minority will have more story in their adventures. It really depends on the creator. Also this game is more or less connected to R. A. Salvatore and some book releases so some kind of main story exist.
I would hope that the Open World would expand in time. I am also very curious about the PvP how will it be... hopefully PvP is Battlegrounds and both deathmatch and Capture the Flag is supported but that is maybe having to high hopes. PvP does not need to be huge scale 5vs 5 and 10 vs 10 for example.
... That said there will be some kind of main story ...
Recently I copied a post from some other forum which presented a very good argument to support what you said.
The game was supposed to be co-op play. Thus it was slated to have a really good single player game like story. When it was changed, stromshade assured us on this forum (his post somewhere archived would still be here) that the quest storyline has not been dropped.
Hence the official quest storyline would be very rich and story driven unlike MMO.
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Recently I copied a post from some other forum which presented a very good argument to support what you said.
The game was supposed to be co-op play. Thus it was slated to have a really good single player game like story. When it was changed, stromshade assured us on this forum (his post somewhere archived would still be here) that the quest storyline has not been dropped.
Hence the official quest storyline would be very rich and story driven unlike MMO.
MMOs cannot be story driven. At least not if they want a good story. I'm sorry, but this is the truth - by making your game an MMO, you are accepting that your story will either be bad or inexistant. That is because you have thousands of players doing the same things at the same time in the same world, thus your options are
a) You have everyone be the hero (thus your story is bad and makes no sense)
or
b) You have everyone be meaningless in the grand sceme of things (thus your story is inexistant)
You can have very good lore, backstories and side stories, but anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself...
What you say is right but a good story doesn't always has to be save the princess. You can have one big war and tell everyone "you played a significant role in the war" which seems to be the theme if you watch teaser trailer of driftwood tavern. I would be positive regarding story.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
MMOs cannot be story driven. At least not if they want a good story. I'm sorry, but this is the truth - by making your game an MMO, you are accepting that your story will either be bad or inexistant. That is because you have thousands of players doing the same things at the same time in the same world, thus your options are
a) You have everyone be the hero (thus your story is bad and makes no sense)
or
b) You have everyone be meaningless in the grand sceme of things (thus your story is inexistant)
You can have very good lore, backstories and side stories, but anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself...
I have to disagree. I have found SWtoR's and LotRO's main story-lines to be very fun, exciting, engaging, and good. That is just my opinion which will vary or be similar to each every player experiencing them. Valid opinions cannot be true or false and that is exactly what your feelings towards "MMO Stories" are in the context of your post. My apologies for my disagreement, I just find it hard to sit by and let an opinion be portrayed as fact.
Story-lines are my major enjoyment in MMOs. I even enjoyed STO's story-line on multiple characters as well as even am enjoying the lacking KDF story-line. That is just me though, which is also evident in my taste for movies. I often am found loving movies that a great number have written poor reviews for, which is because I have an extremely active and vivid imagination, getting deeply into the telling of Stories and Plots more than I do the acting and cinematography.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2012
I must say I understand and agree where you're coming from because it's much easier to write a single player stroyline which is simply awe inspiring.
With that I would say MMO Stroylines definitely do remain weaker than the average SP game but that doesn't mean MMO's can't or don't have grand storylines of their own.
As Gilrmn said it helps to create the storyline with the thought that there's not one main character to be the hero to reaffirm the integrity but I have also played other MMO's which had single-player storylines which worked well as well as long as the quests themselves could only be completed by a single person. In any case based on the Game Trailers they will stick to putting the player in the limelight as "building their own destiny" story rather than following a "Bhallspawn Destiny" story.
Just because this is an MMO doesn't mean the official campaign won't be story driven. In a way it's similar to saying Halo isn't story driven because (stats pulled out of rear) half the players only play for the Multiplayer PvP.
Yeah LOTRO had good, but DDO's storyline (if it had any) was b:spit
Yeah, I never found a cohesive Story-Line in DDO that kept me entertained. Any that are there, seemingly only consisted of a few adventures and quickly were forgotten or irrelevant to the next.
I've probably played about nine MMOs from Everquest to SWtOR. While I haven't played everything, I've played for about 12 years. It does give some perspective.
In my view, the traditional aspects of the RPG doesn't fit with the MMO concept precisely for some of the end game concerns raised in this thread: players rip through content too quickly.
The only way to deal with end game is for there not to be one or to appeal to a specific niche, and both require UGC. So far the only forms of UGC in MMOs are robust PvP and design tools like the Foundry.
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vindiconMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have to disagree. I have found SWtoR's and LotRO's main story-lines to be very fun, exciting, engaging, and good. That is just my opinion which will vary or be similar to each every player experiencing them. Valid opinions cannot be true or false and that is exactly what your feelings towards "MMO Stories" are in the context of your post. My apologies for my disagreement, I just find it hard to sit by and let an opinion be portrayed as fact.
Story-lines are my major enjoyment in MMOs. I even enjoyed STO's story-line on multiple characters as well as even am enjoying the lacking KDF story-line. That is just me though, which is also evident in my taste for movies. I often am found loving movies that a great number have written poor reviews for, which is because I have an extremely active and vivid imagination, getting deeply into the telling of Stories and Plots more than I do the acting and cinematography.
It's not just how good the story itself is, as a story, it's also how well it fits into the MMO aspect. The basic difference between SP and MMO games is the simple fact that you are not alone and you are not the hero. You just can't possibly be.
I don't know about LoTR's story, but from what I have seen in playthroughs, SWTOR has a story that, while very good for a single player game, does not fit into an MMO at all. You are essentially the hero who is the rival of the main antagonist... but the guy next to you is also the same hero. And the next one. And the next one as well... You see where I'm going.
It's good if you disregard absolutely every other player around you... but that doesn't change the fact that you're still in the same place as 1000 more heroes that have slain the same villain you killed 5 minutes ago. And thus any semblance of story is automatically just turned into nonsense.
It's good if you disregard absolutely every other player around you... but that doesn't change the fact that you're still in the same place as 1000 more heroes that have slain the same villain you killed 5 minutes ago. And thus any semblance of story is automatically just turned into nonsense.
I think people are affected differently by this. When I played the Smuggler in SWtOR I never felt like the story was diminished because there were other smugglers playing the same story arc. The Smuggler story was very personal and I always felt like I was the biggest hot shot in the galaxy. I give Bioware credit in this... I really did think the story stuff worked.
IF there is a Powerplateau in Neverwinter then it should not be easy or fast to reach. Yes I enjoy the journey, but let it last a very long time.
Hi all,
I don,t post much, but i do read the forums daily. I began playing DnD in 1986 and have followed all DnD content released on pc, console, and books up til 4th edition. I refuse to play 4th edition on PnP. Nonetheless I am anticipating Neverwinter Online, I want the game to take as long as eq 1 did. I also have many many adventures to try out with the Foundry. In my opinion, today's gaming generation wants everything fast and easy. I can play upwards of 40 hours per week and I do not want to hit max level with in 6 months. Thanks for listening.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
It's not just how good the story itself is, as a story, it's also how well it fits into the MMO aspect. The basic difference between SP and MMO games is the simple fact that you are not alone and you are not the hero. You just can't possibly be.
I don't know about LoTR's story, but from what I have seen in playthroughs, SWTOR has a story that, while very good for a single player game, does not fit into an MMO at all. You are essentially the hero who is the rival of the main antagonist... but the guy next to you is also the same hero. And the next one. And the next one as well... You see where I'm going.
It's good if you disregard absolutely every other player around you... but that doesn't change the fact that you're still in the same place as 1000 more heroes that have slain the same villain you killed 5 minutes ago. And thus any semblance of story is automatically just turned into nonsense.
I think people are affected differently by this. When I played the Smuggler in SWtOR I never felt like the story was diminished because there were other smugglers playing the same story arc. The Smuggler story was very personal and I always felt like I was the biggest hot shot in the galaxy. I give Bioware credit in this... I really did think the story stuff worked.
It should be evident from my reply, other's replies and Nimloh's replies that everyone has their own opinions, tastes, levels of enjoyment and depth of satisfaction. My point is that your posts on this are coming across as though you are speaking for the entire MMO player-base and stating that your opinion of the MMO Storylines are the only acceptable truth and are shared by all other MMO players.
This is my disagreement because I clearly have a different opinion than you do, I just am not trying to say that my opinion is the right one. There is no right one. I'd be more accepting and understanding of your posts on this if you would use more key words like, "I feel" or "in my opinion" or "this is what I enjoy," instead of pushing words like "you," or "the truth," and demeaning statements like "anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself..."
MMOs cannot be story driven. At least not if they want a good story. I'm sorry, but this is the truth - by making your game an MMO, you are accepting that your story will either be bad or inexistant. That is because you have thousands of players doing the same things at the same time in the same world, thus your options are
a) You have everyone be the hero (thus your story is bad and makes no sense)
or
b) You have everyone be meaningless in the grand sceme of things (thus your story is inexistant)
You can have very good lore, backstories and side stories, but anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself...
I have to disagree. I have found SWtoR's and LotRO's main story-lines to be very fun, exciting, engaging, and good. That is just my opinion which will vary or be similar to each every player experiencing them. Valid opinions cannot be true or false and that is exactly what your feelings towards "MMO Stories" are in the context of your post. My apologies for my disagreement, I just find it hard to sit by and let an opinion be portrayed as fact.
Story-lines are my major enjoyment in MMOs. I even enjoyed STO's story-line on multiple characters as well as even am enjoying the lacking KDF story-line. That is just me though, which is also evident in my taste for movies. I often am found loving movies that a great number have written poor reviews for, which is because I have an extremely active and vivid imagination, getting deeply into the telling of Stories and Plots more than I do the acting and cinematography.
It should be evident from my reply, other's replies and Nimloh's replies that everyone has their own opinions, tastes, levels of enjoyment and depth of satisfaction. My point is that your posts on this are coming across as though you are speaking for the entire MMO player-base and stating that your opinion of the MMO Storylines are the only acceptable truth and are shared by all other MMO players.
This is my disagreement because I clearly have a different opinion than you do, I just am not trying to say that my opinion is the right one. There is no right one. I'd be more accepting and understanding of your posts on this if you would use more key words like, "I feel" or "in my opinion" or "this is what I enjoy," instead of pushing words like "you," or "the truth," and demeaning statements like "anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself..."
And remember, as passionate and as thorough as any of you may have experienced this (not singling out the poster he just happened to write it this way,) it's your opinion, not the truth. Heck, even with how my name is here I'm not always "right" and state my opinion also (okay, right 99.997% of the time )
SWtOR was an EXCELLENT example of an MMO focusing almost to the point of obsession on making a good storyline but fell flat in many other parts of the MMO in my opinion.
And as for story in DDO, it did a little TOO well making the adventurer find random people then work with factions (or Houses) 'cause that's what happens to adventurers to travel to different places right?
It should be evident from my reply, other's replies and Nimloh's replies that everyone has their own opinions, tastes, levels of enjoyment and depth of satisfaction. My point is that your posts on this are coming across as though you are speaking for the entire MMO player-base and stating that your opinion of the MMO Storylines are the only acceptable truth and are shared by all other MMO players.
This is my disagreement because I clearly have a different opinion than you do, I just am not trying to say that my opinion is the right one. There is no right one. I'd be more accepting and understanding of your posts on this if you would use more key words like, "I feel" or "in my opinion" or "this is what I enjoy," instead of pushing words like "you," or "the truth," and demeaning statements like "anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself..."
There are some things that are opinions and some that are facts. And I do try and differentiate between the 2. Not always succesfully, of course.
The claim that the common hero stories are not good in an MMO is not because I personally don't like them, but because they obectively make no logical sense.
Now, whether they end up being enjoyable or not that's a whole different matter altogether. I'm not criticising anyone enjoying storyline-driven MMOs. Enjoyment derived from the story is not necessarily about how good the story is, or how well it fits with the gameand differs from person to person. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying something bad, and actually "bad" things may often end up being more enjoyable than "good" ones.
But when you actually have a story with logic errors at hand, it's not a matter of opinion if the quality of it is inferior to that of a similar but with no logic errors story - it's a fact.
For most of the rest, it's all about personal opinion. I was probably a bit too rigid about some things, like how all kinds of MMO stories are necessarily bad, I'll give you that, though I wasn't necessarily promoting them as facts rather than opinions. But for just the above, I'm still not gonna use the word "opinion", because there is no opinion on things that are strictly about logic.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2012
MMOs cannot be story driven. At least not if they want a good story. I'm sorry, but this is the truth
is not logic-driven. It can be logically defended but still is an opinion. 2+2=4 is logic-driven.
Comments
I agree with your comments on elitism. No matter how long I have played a game I strive not to insult or belittle less experienced players and I'd hope for a more mature attitude towards inexperienced players on a D&D game than you find in other MMO's.
However End Game means something different to every person. You're talking about End Game as high level content and with the Foundry there should be plenty of high level content to play!
The only thing I can stress is that D&D End Games aren't literal 'you beat the game' as so many believe. If Cryptic does their job there will be no way to 'beat' the game just as there is no way to 'beat' Pen and Paper D&D.
You're max level? Instead of playing a Human Fighter switch over to an Elven Wizard and try the game from that combat style. If this game is anything like NWN/NWN2 we shouldn't have any lack of UGC to keep things fresh. It won't be Diablo 3 grinding the same quests over and over and over again.
Also D&D is not a level one to max level game. Honestly, it often gets to a point that you get bored playing the high level character even before they reach maxed level.
My biggest advice to everybody worried about gameplay after max is to realize the truth, there is no max. Only the illusion.
Actually PvP will be released along with launch now due to the release delay. :-)
See wikpedia source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neverwinter_%28video_game%29
Same wikpedia says correctly that Neverwinter will be released 2013 and PvP will be included after that release.
PvP will be at launch and was the primary reason for the delay in NW as quoted by devs (though I suspect that is not true, it must be due to PWE releasing funds as insinuated by SS for budget after they recognized the NW not as dark horse but primary game).
Also "PvP will be more of an endgame thing though whether to restrict it to arena or not is being worked out" according to Andy.
EDIT: @elewyndyl don't trust wikipedia over us. Our knowledge is greater and sharper due to 2 years of waiting.
for me i prefer epic lvl like areas where high lvl charaacter can venture into
for example
myth drannor for low lvl character will die if they try to venture in and high lvl character if alone
coz to me dnd and forgotten realms world is so wide and interesting to explore lots of possible routes for high lvl character like some who posted before end game is not really the end but the beginning for high lvl
just my two cents worth
Hmm I think in some things you are sharper since some of you hear directly or indirectly what the developers say. You are correct that funding has to do with it also. To be honest how PW funds Cryptic is a bit mystery to me. I mean what profit do they get?
Here are my wild theories of additional funding... Alienware donated computers to Cryptic and in return they demand some advertising.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrUCu21EtnM
In addition we also have WOTC which has very deep pockets. I am not saying WOTC pays Cryptic but they get lots of material and R.A. Salvatore supports the game. There are the book releases and the whole game is good PR for Dungeons Dragons.
Yeas funding is a bit mystery still... interesting.
Lets agree on one thing Neverwinter MMO is released 2013 and hopefully PvP is released at same time, but that remains to be seen.
PW is publisher they get all the profits. In fact it is the best thing that happened to cryptic. Allow me to explain those good days of celebrity on forums in detail:-
*casting circle of protection from evil*
Atari used to be publisher of cryptic. Cryptic was profit making company, but Atari is a real game killer company. May they rot in courts with all those lawsuits from cryptic and turbine.
Even when cryptic games were profitable, they had to bend over to get funds. Then there was freedom of developers too. It was well known long before that cryptic wanted to make MMO, but Atari insisted on Co-op to cash in NWN success.
Then PWE -north american subsidy company of PWI bought cryptic. Now PWE became publishers of CO, STO and NW too since cryptic now works for PWE who pays them. They gave the devs freedom and allowed them to make NW a MMO. Devs were really happy and somewhere archived on forums you can find their comments.
So PWE gave them moneies for development cost because they thought - ok its a good investment. Then NW was recieved very well at PAX and stuff winning MMORPG.com and many other awards. So PWE gave them more funding. With more funding, cryptic thought - now we have money, lets make this game more polished so no one can criticize our baby.
Thats it in the nutshell.
WotC are not paying cryptic but they will get money from the game success as D&D IP belongs to them. However, unlike before, WotC has involved themselves very close to the development of game sharing pnp artwork and stuff. That maybe because no good D&D video game made it recently even when fantasy genre is number 1 these days.
Also here.
There is more but couldn't find them. They are all archived and searching by my username doesn't works on them.
That's not what I said. ;-)
PvP will be in at launch due to the release delay. The launch delay was not because of PvP.
Cryptic requested permission to delay the release to polish up the PvE Game and The Foundry.
It just so happens that the delay lines up with the scheduled release of PvP as well.
Any ties to the game being delayed *because* of PvP is players hearing what they want to hear. No offense.
Side Note: In the video game industry dev groups work on different projects simultaneously. Of course things could work differently at Cryptic but typically things aren't designed in a linear fashion. I can assure you that they won't be done with the PvE game in Jan and delay the launch to then develop PvP. Both are actively being worked on now.
"The PvP was one of the main reason for delay". One of the video of devs after the delay specifically says so. Also maybe its just better to link the statements itself to lay to rest that PvP will be included at launch.
Link:-
http://betanews.com/newswire/2012/08/15/neverwinter-dominates-august-with-presence-at-gamescom-gen-con-indy-and-pax-prime/
Also, my conspiracy theory if you read between the SS lines:-
having a strong PvP system in place is an important ingredient for a successfull launch of any MMO game.
P.S. if any of the devs read this, please review the first 6 months of RIFT by Trion as a guide on how to do it right, post launch. additionaly, review the first 6 months of SWTOR by Bioware for how to do it wrong.
While PvP is good Guild Wars 2 have certainly showed that PvP alone is not good enough for endgame. There should be good PvE content and not ridiculous easy reach Powerplateau(=maxed character can not get more powerful) in less then 2 weeks like in Guild Wars 2. The powerprogression do not need to be so hardcore as WOW(everlasting lootmill never max your character), but neither so extreme casual as Guild Wars 2. Also I stick to my conclusion that 10 people raids could add more good stuff to the PvE world.
Yes I like the FOUNDRY, but I don't buy the philosophy lets roll another character simply(unless it takes a loooong time to reach Powerplateau) or that there is no endgame. Endgame exist! Sure I like the journey and lots of low-mid level adventures, but that remains my conclusion.
The notion that building alts can take away some of issues surrounding endgame content just doesn't sit right with me. In every game that I've played, I have typically built several alts and leveled them as well. It got old fast, repeating the same quests for each character, going through the same map spaces, killing the same mobs. I've started in other starter areas, rolled different types of characters, and I've still had the same issues..repetetive quests. The Foundry may relieve some of that tedium, but it remains to be seen.
I intend to play this game for a long time to come and I do hope that the message presented here by the potential players of this game is heard. The developers need to look at the endgame, build their game with the knowledge that it will be reached quickly by players, and plan accordingly.
I don't know what the answer is. Slowing down character progression is one mechanic that can be employed certainly, but you risk losing player interest in the slow grind. I'm certain there is a happy medium that can be achieved though in that area. What else can be done, I'm not sure. Heroic type raids at the endgame is another area that will have appeal to some players and be ignored by others. I do think it should be included, but again, it is not the only solution to this issue.
I am looking forward to playing this game. I am looking forward to meeting the members of this forum in game and adventuring with them. Frankly, I hope this is the last game that I play, I believe that it has the makings of an awesome game, both now and well into the future.
My Best,
Ezra Steel
i imaging this game to have a stronger end game then most theme park games (sand boxes are better due to their sieging etc.) - because there will be a lot of user generated content and all the user will want to make even bigger and better dungeons and quests...on the other hand, everything will be instanced...this game will be very very far away from a sandbox game...it will basically be a quest based instance game, thats why i would assume the endgame to be better then a standard theme park, but the middle game to be worse due to lack of story
Well it is marketed as Action MMORPG. That said there will be some kind of main story and you can find/access main story content easily. I am fine with that because I have never liked big sandbox games like Elder Scrolls where you are confused what to do. As in story for user created instances I am sure at least some minority will have more story in their adventures. It really depends on the creator. Also this game is more or less connected to R. A. Salvatore and some book releases so some kind of main story exist.
I would hope that the Open World would expand in time. I am also very curious about the PvP how will it be... hopefully PvP is Battlegrounds and both deathmatch and Capture the Flag is supported but that is maybe having to high hopes. PvP does not need to be huge scale 5vs 5 and 10 vs 10 for example.
The game was supposed to be co-op play. Thus it was slated to have a really good single player game like story. When it was changed, stromshade assured us on this forum (his post somewhere archived would still be here) that the quest storyline has not been dropped.
Hence the official quest storyline would be very rich and story driven unlike MMO.
MMOs cannot be story driven. At least not if they want a good story. I'm sorry, but this is the truth - by making your game an MMO, you are accepting that your story will either be bad or inexistant. That is because you have thousands of players doing the same things at the same time in the same world, thus your options are
a) You have everyone be the hero (thus your story is bad and makes no sense)
or
b) You have everyone be meaningless in the grand sceme of things (thus your story is inexistant)
You can have very good lore, backstories and side stories, but anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself...
I have to disagree. I have found SWtoR's and LotRO's main story-lines to be very fun, exciting, engaging, and good. That is just my opinion which will vary or be similar to each every player experiencing them. Valid opinions cannot be true or false and that is exactly what your feelings towards "MMO Stories" are in the context of your post. My apologies for my disagreement, I just find it hard to sit by and let an opinion be portrayed as fact.
Story-lines are my major enjoyment in MMOs. I even enjoyed STO's story-line on multiple characters as well as even am enjoying the lacking KDF story-line. That is just me though, which is also evident in my taste for movies. I often am found loving movies that a great number have written poor reviews for, which is because I have an extremely active and vivid imagination, getting deeply into the telling of Stories and Plots more than I do the acting and cinematography.
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With that I would say MMO Stroylines definitely do remain weaker than the average SP game but that doesn't mean MMO's can't or don't have grand storylines of their own.
As Gilrmn said it helps to create the storyline with the thought that there's not one main character to be the hero to reaffirm the integrity but I have also played other MMO's which had single-player storylines which worked well as well as long as the quests themselves could only be completed by a single person. In any case based on the Game Trailers they will stick to putting the player in the limelight as "building their own destiny" story rather than following a "Bhallspawn Destiny" story.
Just because this is an MMO doesn't mean the official campaign won't be story driven. In a way it's similar to saying Halo isn't story driven because (stats pulled out of rear) half the players only play for the Multiplayer PvP.
Yeah, I never found a cohesive Story-Line in DDO that kept me entertained. Any that are there, seemingly only consisted of a few adventures and quickly were forgotten or irrelevant to the next.
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In my view, the traditional aspects of the RPG doesn't fit with the MMO concept precisely for some of the end game concerns raised in this thread: players rip through content too quickly.
The only way to deal with end game is for there not to be one or to appeal to a specific niche, and both require UGC. So far the only forms of UGC in MMOs are robust PvP and design tools like the Foundry.
It's not just how good the story itself is, as a story, it's also how well it fits into the MMO aspect. The basic difference between SP and MMO games is the simple fact that you are not alone and you are not the hero. You just can't possibly be.
I don't know about LoTR's story, but from what I have seen in playthroughs, SWTOR has a story that, while very good for a single player game, does not fit into an MMO at all. You are essentially the hero who is the rival of the main antagonist... but the guy next to you is also the same hero. And the next one. And the next one as well... You see where I'm going.
It's good if you disregard absolutely every other player around you... but that doesn't change the fact that you're still in the same place as 1000 more heroes that have slain the same villain you killed 5 minutes ago. And thus any semblance of story is automatically just turned into nonsense.
I think people are affected differently by this. When I played the Smuggler in SWtOR I never felt like the story was diminished because there were other smugglers playing the same story arc. The Smuggler story was very personal and I always felt like I was the biggest hot shot in the galaxy. I give Bioware credit in this... I really did think the story stuff worked.
Hi all,
I don,t post much, but i do read the forums daily. I began playing DnD in 1986 and have followed all DnD content released on pc, console, and books up til 4th edition. I refuse to play 4th edition on PnP. Nonetheless I am anticipating Neverwinter Online, I want the game to take as long as eq 1 did. I also have many many adventures to try out with the Foundry. In my opinion, today's gaming generation wants everything fast and easy. I can play upwards of 40 hours per week and I do not want to hit max level with in 6 months. Thanks for listening.
It should be evident from my reply, other's replies and Nimloh's replies that everyone has their own opinions, tastes, levels of enjoyment and depth of satisfaction. My point is that your posts on this are coming across as though you are speaking for the entire MMO player-base and stating that your opinion of the MMO Storylines are the only acceptable truth and are shared by all other MMO players.
This is my disagreement because I clearly have a different opinion than you do, I just am not trying to say that my opinion is the right one. There is no right one. I'd be more accepting and understanding of your posts on this if you would use more key words like, "I feel" or "in my opinion" or "this is what I enjoy," instead of pushing words like "you," or "the truth," and demeaning statements like "anyone expecting a good main story in an MMO is just fooling himself..."
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And remember, as passionate and as thorough as any of you may have experienced this (not singling out the poster he just happened to write it this way,) it's your opinion, not the truth. Heck, even with how my name is here I'm not always "right" and state my opinion also (okay, right 99.997% of the time
SWtOR was an EXCELLENT example of an MMO focusing almost to the point of obsession on making a good storyline but fell flat in many other parts of the MMO in my opinion.
And as for story in DDO, it did a little TOO well making the adventurer find random people then work with factions (or Houses) 'cause that's what happens to adventurers to travel to different places right?
No further comment on that.
There are some things that are opinions and some that are facts. And I do try and differentiate between the 2. Not always succesfully, of course.
The claim that the common hero stories are not good in an MMO is not because I personally don't like them, but because they obectively make no logical sense.
Now, whether they end up being enjoyable or not that's a whole different matter altogether. I'm not criticising anyone enjoying storyline-driven MMOs. Enjoyment derived from the story is not necessarily about how good the story is, or how well it fits with the gameand differs from person to person. And there's nothing wrong with enjoying something bad, and actually "bad" things may often end up being more enjoyable than "good" ones.
But when you actually have a story with logic errors at hand, it's not a matter of opinion if the quality of it is inferior to that of a similar but with no logic errors story - it's a fact.
For most of the rest, it's all about personal opinion. I was probably a bit too rigid about some things, like how all kinds of MMO stories are necessarily bad, I'll give you that, though I wasn't necessarily promoting them as facts rather than opinions. But for just the above, I'm still not gonna use the word "opinion", because there is no opinion on things that are strictly about logic.
As I said, I'm only insisting on the fact that hero storylines are not suitable for MMOs. The rest was me just being too strict.
Ok, screw it, can we just hug, make up and forget it? b:shedtear