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Neverwinter ? Putting the power in the players hands
ryvvik
Member, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users Posts: 966 Bounty Hunter
Really nice article here:
http://www.nisute.com/2012/08/17/dungeons-dragons-neverwinter-putting-the-power-in-the-players-hands/
"Hence Neverwinter was born. Of course, with the conversion of the original games rules into a digital medium several liberties had to be taken, for instance in regards to abilities and powers."
"It is hard to decide what period of time best represents a day within a game (until next login?Real time?) and limiting usage to once per encounter seemed unfit for a game where combat is real time action. So instead of these types of restrictions, encounter and daily powers (both do make a return) simply have cooldown timers, similar to the system used in many MMORPG?s. Many familiar powers are returning from each of the classes, but again, they were used relatively liberally to suit the game?s different gameplay. Action is fully real time and that means there is no hidden die rolls, requiring some powers? effects to be redesigned slightly or entirely."
"In regards to class builds Lindsay told us that the initial plan was to present each class as a blank sheet and allow the player to choose a build to his or her own liking, but the complexity this brought forth proved confusing and in order to cater to a wider audience the team chose to set predetermined builds for each of the classes (examples: guardian fighter, trickster rogue and controlling wizard). Tiers go up to paragon, but levels up to 60 so expect the gaining of powers and level bonuses to be more spread out. Fun fact: Lindsay revealed the team did occasionally open the Player?s Handbook for reference and inspiration."
"Lindsay was unfortunately not allowed to speak freely about PvP other than that it?s going to be there. In fact, the game?s release has been delayed simply to facilitate the implemention of it"
Thanks Tom Kerhof
This small taste of the massive, free mmorpg, Neverwinter, highlights one of the game’s many public events that are designed to offer players something new to do every single day,” Perfect World said in a release
http://mmo-play.com/rpg-games/neverwinter/news/neverwinter-demo-early-2012-release
http://www.nisute.com/2012/08/17/dungeons-dragons-neverwinter-putting-the-power-in-the-players-hands/
"Hence Neverwinter was born. Of course, with the conversion of the original games rules into a digital medium several liberties had to be taken, for instance in regards to abilities and powers."
"It is hard to decide what period of time best represents a day within a game (until next login?Real time?) and limiting usage to once per encounter seemed unfit for a game where combat is real time action. So instead of these types of restrictions, encounter and daily powers (both do make a return) simply have cooldown timers, similar to the system used in many MMORPG?s. Many familiar powers are returning from each of the classes, but again, they were used relatively liberally to suit the game?s different gameplay. Action is fully real time and that means there is no hidden die rolls, requiring some powers? effects to be redesigned slightly or entirely."
"In regards to class builds Lindsay told us that the initial plan was to present each class as a blank sheet and allow the player to choose a build to his or her own liking, but the complexity this brought forth proved confusing and in order to cater to a wider audience the team chose to set predetermined builds for each of the classes (examples: guardian fighter, trickster rogue and controlling wizard). Tiers go up to paragon, but levels up to 60 so expect the gaining of powers and level bonuses to be more spread out. Fun fact: Lindsay revealed the team did occasionally open the Player?s Handbook for reference and inspiration."
"Lindsay was unfortunately not allowed to speak freely about PvP other than that it?s going to be there. In fact, the game?s release has been delayed simply to facilitate the implemention of it"
Thanks Tom Kerhof
This small taste of the massive, free mmorpg, Neverwinter, highlights one of the game’s many public events that are designed to offer players something new to do every single day,” Perfect World said in a release
http://mmo-play.com/rpg-games/neverwinter/news/neverwinter-demo-early-2012-release
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Zinkievich also confirmed that Cryptic was working to add Player-vs-Player functionality in Foundry, giving players access to the entire range of tools therein. That means they won't just make arenas for players to fight in; they can create objectives, or put every player on a race to finish the same quest
Cryptic won't shackle creators with excessive barriers designed to prevent exploits. Enemies, when killed, give the same amount of XP as they would in the real world, and drop from the same loot tables. Quests award XP based on how long the players spent playing them ? a five-minute quest only gives a fraction of how much an hour-long quest will award.
The only real restriction is the treasure chest which players can drop once into their levels, which also scales based on how long the quest takes to complete. However, creators will be able to pick specific types of items (swords, helmets, etc.), which will then automatically be fitted to the class of the player which found it. Best of all, after picking the archetype for the item, the creator can name it, and then that name will stay with the item even after the player has left the dungeon
By Griffin McElroy
http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/8/18/3251244/neverwinter-foundry-lets-you-build-anything-from-pvp-to-text
Disappointed with the class build setup but.....meh.
Yeah I can see it now...after much shared sacrifice you successfully navigate the dungeon and defeat the ancient evil the treasure chest lies before you...then all hell breaks loose as the party starts killing each other. b:laugh
Yeah that has me so jazzed about the possibilities of UGC it isn't even funny.
Ughh your kidding ? If they want to reach a wider audience they would give us the options of using premade builds OR our own custom build!!!
Please tell me this is not so......
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I believe they mean we have to select a single class (which I do believe means multi-classing is out)..
Other than that, I believe we still get to build the toon to our liking, if not this game will be an utter fail for many.
Here's how the character creation function is supposed to work in 4e:
1 Choose a race.
The following races are available to play in 4th edition: Deva, Dragonborn, Drow, Dwarf, Eladrin, Elf, Genasi, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Goliath, Half-Elf, Half-Orc, Halfling, Hamadryad, Human, Kalashtar, Shifter, Minotaur, Mul, Pixie, Revenant, Satyr, Shadar-Kai, Shade, Shardmind, Thri-Kreen, Tiefling, Vryloka, Warforged, and Wilden.
Naturally we dont get to choose from many of these, yet
2 Choose a general role for your character to play in the party. The four roles are Controller, Defender, Leader, and Striker.
Controllers deal damage to multiple enemies and prefer offense over defense. Controller classes include Druids, Invokers, and Wizards.
Defenders are front-line combatants and have high defense. Defender classes include Fighters, Paladins, and Wardens.
Leaders have healing and aiding abilities to protect the rest of the party as their roll, and also boast high defense. Leader classes include Bards, Clerics, Shamans, and Warlords.
Strikers deal massive damage to single enemies at a time and have the highest attack and mobility of the party. Striker classes include Avengers, Barbarians, Rangers, Rogues, Sorcerers, and Warlocks.
3 Choose a class that fits that role.
You should consult their descriptions in the source books in making this decision.
4 Choose your stats for: Strength (Str), Constitution (Con), Dexterity (Dex), Intelligence (Int), Wisdom (Wis), and Charisma (Cha).
These make up the six ability scores of your character.
Strength represents physical power.
Constitution represents health and stamina.
Dexterity represents agility and reflexes.
Intelligence represents reasoning.
Wisdom represents common sense.
Charisma represents personality.
5 Determine your ability scores.
Ability scores are the base statistics for your character and can be determined with one of three methods. Note that each class depends on certain ability scores, which typically means that you should assign higher scores to these abilities.
6 Choose your feats.
At first level, you may choose one feat. If you are human, you gain an additional feat. Feats provide static bonuses to characters, and bonuses of the same type do not stack together.
7 Choose your powers.
Powers are different kinds of attack your character can make and are divided into four categories: At-Will, Encounter, Daily, and Utility powers. "At-Will" powers can be used once per turn in an encounter indefinitely. "Encounter" powers can be used once per combat encounter. "Daily" powers can be used once per day.
Utility powers act like feats in that they give you static bonuses and certain advantages.
Each class in both the PHB and PHB2 list their powers in the same chapter. However, additional 4th editio
n d&d books are available for an extended list of available powers. The Martial Power handbook provides more... powers for martial characters. The Arcane Power handbook provides more powers for arcane characters. The Primal Power handbook provides more powers for primal characters.
At first level, each player can choose 2 at-wills, 1 encounter, and 1 daily. You can choose 1 utility power at second level.
Besides customizing the look of your toon, that should be about it!
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In order to appeal to a mass market (and not just D&D players) you want to make it as easy and simple as possible; so that a total begginner could make a perfectly functional character in less than ten seconds.
DDO for instance was wayyyy too complicated and non noob friendly (unless you picked one of the ready made classes, which wern't as good as optimised custom classes); requiring hours of research so as not to permenantly mess up your character before you even started playing.
Edit- I think this in red is incorrect
From what I understand, you have classes and 3 builds each (talent trees, you could spend points across the board if you liked for a mixed class):
For instance...
Class: Fighter
Build 1:Guardian (tank)
Build 2:Slayer (2h)
Build 3:?
There are a lot of abilities to choose from, but only a few may be equiped at a time (7 I think); I reckon this is where you will get the flavour of specialisation.
In this video it shows it
at 01:41
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vNMqSWF1aU#
I'm not exactly sure how to interpret the what I'm seeing, but appears that:
You have multiple paths
Powers unlock as you level up (?)
You get "feat points" and apply them in the feat menu (this is what I am thinking they are using to specialise the character, beyond choosing what powers you use)
Something else I noticed in the video, there are 7 player races at the character creation screen, one more than has been announced
Also there are 5 classes to pick from, 1 more than has been announced, I'm betting ranger.
Also you can dye all your gear.
If they build our toons for us, its not D&D. Hopefully, we are in charge of the stat points and other build options I listed above.
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Hmmm so folks playing Encounters every Wednesday at my local game shop aren't playing D&D, since they are using pre-generated characters.... interesting, cause it's hella popular. b:chuckle
They may give people the option, they may not...from talking to folks who played the demo, it looks like not and given Jacks remarks at Gencon....we all know he was never big on showing the numbers.
In any event D&D is a lot of different things to a lot of people it's kinda Draconian to say: "If this isn't in it isn't D&D"...well it isn't Pen and Paper D&D and we all know that, it is Digital D&D, that doesn't preclude it from not being fun.
http://i.minus.com/i7IDcCShxFBnd.bmp
Here is the race selection menu (note 7 races instead of the 6 that are on the site so far)
http://i.minus.com/i06zrOdE0ZYaZ.bmp
Here is the class selection menu (note 5 classes instead of the 4 that are on the site so far)
http://i.minus.com/ib1IDqSp04R3f4.bmp
Baloney, you can build your own 1st-level character to bring to D&D Encounters, using the standard character creation rules presented in the Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, or Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms.
Of course, you can also use the D&D Character Builder to create your character as well.
However, this is off topic.
For the last 20+ years, since SSI gold box edition Pool of Radiance, we've been building our own characters from scratch..
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Not everyone likes pre generated stuff its pretty much for noobs sorry if that offends but when i make my rp wizzy i will build him accordingly, it's kind of hard to do that if things are pre generated.
When i make my pally I WANT to be the one that decides his stat placement and likewise for my wizzy etc. How i play my toon also impacts how he is built.
Take that away from me and I'm starting to feel like its some random mmo in a forgotten realm setting.
Saying bah pre generated builds will float everyones boat and that this is acceptable is pretty draconian as well to my thinking.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Ummm never said that you couldn't I said that most folks at my local store use pre gens due to time restraints and according to you that isn't D&D....
And we may not be able to here....it is an unknown for now.
b:bye
Naa I see vets using pre-gens all the time, due to time factors or whatever...and nothing offensive about it guy, everyone has their own take on things.
Never said that, but it might be the way things are, personally I hope they give options for both but who knows at this point? I'm not going to get worked up about it either way, but some folks will.
/shrug.
I got you right the first time, nice back peddle.
There's nothing wrong with folks rolling prefab toons if they like, not such a bad idea if you are only dabbling in Encounters.
There's two things tho that you fail to comprehend.
1. People will build and play toons in Neverwinter, potentially for years. If Cryptic builds our toons for us, then everyone walks around with the same exact toons. That would be considered far too linear and boring for any pnp folks I grew up playing with.
2. There's been a precedent set with every single D&D licensed product for a PC since Pool of Radiance debuted in 1988 for the C64, Apple II, Mac, etc. WoTC has been promoting 4e as a natural port to PC gaming since its very announcement. If prefab toons were what they meant, they will be a laughing stock amongst quite a few circles...
Therefore, I'm hoping, and expecting Neverwinter to focus on character creation and building... like every game before it has done, that's carried the D&D logo.
So my plea to Cryptic is this. Don't change your game just to make it easier for newcomers. Be honest to your roots, build a great D&D game - and they will come. Don't change the legacy... let the legacy absorb the player.
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Wow...b:laugh lot of snarky animosity there; all your rage and podium pounding history lesson aside they could approach it a couple different ways One would be to have your characters base stats min/maxed starting out or as I said they could give you the option to do either or like in DDO.....but whatever they decide I'm sure some bitter basement dweller somewhere will consider it a laughing stock...that kinda goes with the territory.
Also even if they do make you build your own character in the traditional method nothing will be learned as a min/max guide will be posted for each class two weeks before the game launches.
Choose a race
Choose a gender
Choose a look
Choose your history
Choose a class (wizard)
Choose a build (control)
Choose a path (flavour)
Choose your stats
Choose your powers (specialisation, changable at camp fires. If anything it seems you are less limited than tabletop)
Choose your/put points into feats
What is missing?
Pen and paper D&D vets will be in a vast minority, so as a general rule it isn't wise to specifically cater to them at the expense of new players. It'd put people off if everything wasn't immediately obvious and clear.
Creating a character from scratch in D&D tabletop can be intimidating if you've never played before, and would have been a nightmare for me and my pals if not for the character creation tool on the WOTC website.
I hope they will have to foresight not to alienate many of the more "traditional" types by removing custom builds, that would just be plain sucky.
There's nothing "difficult" in letting us place our stats etc our selves like the big boys n girls we are.
The only reason for them not to let us do this would be to force us into certain cookie cutter builds and control how we play our toons for the sake of "balance". It probably makes it hella lot easier for them to balance "pvp" too.
I'm not gonna get worked up over this either I will just go play GW2 if they try to clone it too much n cut out what I feel is essential dnd to me.
Thing is though I would rather play this one but I wont if when I log in I feel like aww shucks I wish it was real dnd
I could be wrong but I'm under the impression you will not be able to choose your stats or what feats and powers you get. I'm under the impression that's all chosen for you when you choose your "build".
Like in DDO the premades you don't choose where your stat points go, you don't choose what feats you get at lvl up etc.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Yeah that is basically the impression I'm getting, as I said in another thread my friend who was at the demo said they kept saying they wanted Character creation to be fast and accessible...and really from what I'm seeing in the D&D next playtest they are adding that fast and accessible option as well...but it is an option and maybe will be in Neverwinter as well.
Jack Emmeret said that D&D to him was more about story and having adventures with your friends than numbers...looks like they may go that way and purist be damned.
ok here ya go.
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I know that you get feat points to assign to specific feats. That leads me to believe that either you can choose which feats you have, or you choose which feats that the class has available.
If they were class based, it could be that feats operate like talent trees in WOW.
The stats I'm not sure about; you can see them here in the character creation menu, but I don't know if they are changable:
http://i.minus.com/ibaWcAhHTSBdmg.bmp
It looks like you will be able to choose powers according to your class build, but you won't be restricted like in table top to pick and choose when leveling up. It looks like you eventually unlock all abilities for you class (like in Diablo 3), but must pick and choose which are currently equipped.
I'm guessing the feats will be chosen in a wow-like tree menu system.
As long as they dont gloss over character creation and give us a way to personalize our choices, thats great. I do feel its important however to have an easy to use, well layed out, informative UI so that someone brand new to Neverwinter can build their toon to their liking.
PS That's a nice jpg by the way...
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They don't seem to want us to be able to do this. They seem to want us to choose a cookie cutter play style that THEY decided what feats and power go with it but then say welp you can add "points" to the feats to make em stronger etc and claim that's customization.
The swapping thing I understand it's how a wizards in ddo can swap out spell at a shrine as long as he has that spell in his spell book unlike sorcs who choose spells at level up and then can't change em. They are made like this because each class has certain different advantages yet you can really customize em to the max via your feats, enhancements and stats etc
It's hard to tell though just by looking at those pics, it's who the guy was speaking in the video. He gave me the impression it was gonna be a simple log in take 5 mins n jump into the game and be pretty much like everyone else.
It's kinda how GW is isn't it, all the gear has the same stats just different skins the only thing that makes you different is the skills you pop on your skill bar for moment depending on what your are doing and even then when you know the content you end up using the same skill set etc .
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
I don't think so. In the video, they had the character mostly made. There is a back button available to push in the pic where undoubtedly those options were chosen. The pic shows the end of character creation. All that is left is to name the character and play.
Well that would be good news lol, though i would then be wanting to know exactly what is being meant by premade builds?
What is a build if not your stat placement, the feats you choose, powers etc.
Heh im trying to figure out the equivalent in this game to what is called feats and enhancements in ddo.
Your "build" is determined mainly by 5 things in ddo your race, your class, your feats you choose at level up, your enhancements and your stats placement.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
What is more important, that the game is the best digital game it can be, or that it adhears closest to the tabletop? It isn't neccessarily true that if it veers away from PnP that it will make for a bad game, or drive people away.
What is the Dungeons and Dragons experience? What is it about DnD that is unique and attractive? As surely that is what keeps people playing Neverwinter and not some other MMO.
Is it the lore, the universe, the cooperation with others, the roleplaying, the art, combat simulation?
Is such in-depth character customisation absolutely fundamental to what Dungeons and Dragons is? Will it ruin the whole experience if that aspect is made simpler?
There is some bleed over, but I don't think that the audience for PnP and Neverwinter are strictly the same demographic; I know plenty of people who have played MMO's, baldur's gate etc, but have never thought or cared to play tabletop.
Hell, I know plenty of people who have never even heard of Dungeons and Dragons, yet have played games intrinsically linked to it.
I wouldn't count them as D&D vets, and wouldn't think that the majority of MMO players are either.
But yeah, obviously WOTC want to pull in some new customers from the MMO crowd, and claim back some of the audience that has been playing derivatives and copycats of their universe unwittingly for years ;P
May be coming across as a bit snarky, sorry. Just debating b:cute
So, if they had actually allowed 100% custom builds, I don't even know if it would have been possible. It is always better to go with realism than unrealistic idealism lest the game never comes out.
That said, I am sure you would be able to customize the build somewhat. For even a wizard, it should be possible to be control+damage, only control or mostly damage+little control.
p.s. for those who are wondering, choosing powers itself will make much of a difference apart from gear and few stat points. If you have played daggerdale, you can get the general idea how you can still customize your character even for locked builds. Don't play it though, it very bad.
EDIT: Making character completely customisable will lead to a max/min build scenario like in DDO. Where you have to put all points in one skill, and putting any point in skills like swim etc. is "gimping" your character. So complete customization may lead to a worse scenario than locked builds. Eventually if they have (say) 100 builds to choose from (a modest number) it would be all fine.
They did say quick create at the start of the ESL vid so this might only be an option, or may have premade gen toons for those that just want to rock it straight up without investing too much time into building.
Based on cryptics toon generation in the past, i cant come at just pre-gen being the only option.
but looking at this below, time to take my bat and ball and go home.
"In regards to class builds Lindsay told us that the initial plan was to present each class as a blank sheet and allow the player to choose a build to his or her own liking, but the complexity this brought forth proved confusing and in order to cater to a wider audience the team chose to set predetermined builds for each of the classes (examples: guardian fighter, trickster rogue and controlling wizard). "
In the esl vid Craig said paragon paths to take control off as well.
Best way to answer this is with an in depth analogy. Lets say you heard about this great sport called baseball. You arrive at the ballpark early. There's two bags of equipment lying on the ground. There's two coaches, one old and one young, standing alongside their bags.
The old coach, Billy Martin, let's you open the bag, which contains a bunch of bats, balls and even a few gloves that look like they'll fit you. Mr Martin sits you down and shows you the basics. He teaches you how to hold a bat, swing the bat, shows you how to catch and throw the ball around. He teaches you how to run the bases. After a few more minutes of instruction he tells you to grab to grab a bat and "Let's Play Ball!!" The old coach throws you a few pitches. You never had more fun in your life, as you got to swing the bat, run the bases, and play all the positions. You can hear the crowd roar! You are in a field of dreams. You can feel Babe Ruth, Joe Dimaggio, and all the legends that came before you. You are a major league baseball player! You will tell all your friends of this moment.
Now - lets start your day again. The young coach, named Billy, opens his bag for you. "Back away" Billy explains. My game is easy. Anyone can play this game. I will take care of all the intricacies, so you can enjoy the game. Billy hands you the bat. He tells you there's no need for instruction because all you need to do is swing. Billy places a Tee on home plate and places a ball comfortably on top. Billy exclaims "swing!" You hit the ball over the fence. Billy exclaims, "its a home run!!" Then Billy runs around the bases for you, exclaiming you got a home run! After 30 minutes you were bored and said "Thank you coach for teaching me the game. You may of called this baseball, but I was bored. I really didnt learn to play this great game I heard so much about. Sure it was easier, I didnt even break a sweat. Anyone can play this game. But I didnt hear the fans, I couldnt recall the legends of old. I dont want to be this... this.. star. I just want to play another game. Thank you for trying Coach, bye."
To many, your character is as important as any other facet of D&D. After all you are trying to imagine that character, which is technically you, exploring and interacting with the world around you. Regardless if you roll the stats or pick the stats you'd like, YOU are making the choice. The character you build should be customized to your image of that character, and to your own personality/playstyle. That to me is D&D.
The thing here is PnP D&D and computers have always sat on opposite ends of the table. Computers have tried to emulate the tabletop experience for years. Only since the creation of MMOs have developers and fans felt they could get even closer because of the teamwork element. But thats where its stopped, and should stop. They should shoot for emulation, but realize at the same time they are two different elements. A D&D inspired MMO is unlike any other MMO because MMOs can make up their own rules. MMOs like DDO and Neverwinter have to emulate an already established set of rules. And its a fine line, a very fine line. Developers know computers dont role dice, so the trick is to make the gamer FEEL LIKE the computer is rolling the dice, and you are just playing the game and having fun. At the same time, if the developer veers too far away from the rules, it disenfranchises the playerbase and you have no game.
Most of us that have played PnP will not be doing so in Neverwinter, we'll just be playing the game. But remember, there are many who have played the rpgs of the past, read the novels... its not just a pnp audience... but will be looking for that D&D authenticity somewhere in their gameplay.
There is no shame for Cryptic to stand up and say "We introduce to you, DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS." They will come. Opening up the bag for them, bringing the game down to the level of a noob will neither be good for those of us who know better, nor will it build brand loyalty for the new blood. That's my take.
Indeed!!
Not at all, it was fun!
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
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