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Please do not neglect PvP
kronarchy
Member Posts: 26 Arc User
This is a plea to the devs, however slim the chance they might read it.
I understand that Neverwinter will primarily be a PvE game, however I dont foresee PvE being much of an issue if the Foundry fullfills its potential.
As such my main concern is that recent MMO experiences have shown me that PvP can play a large part in the success or failure of a game. And i do so very much want Neverwinter to be a success.
Other titles on the MMO market have launched with extremely limited PvP content and little concern for that part of the game. It has then come as a surprise to those companies that large numbers of very vocal players have heavilly critisised those games for this seeming neglect. i'm not just talking about PvPers here, as even those who describe themselves as PvEers like to wet their blades with the blood of other players from time to time.
These companies have then been left playing catch-up in the PvP departement and having to accomodate PvP into their pre-planned post launch content expansions. See RIFT (Trion) for how to do catchup right, and SW:ToR (Bioware) for how to do it wrong.
This isn't a post asking for any specific styles of PvP, or demanding that you achieve the impossible by perfectly balancing classes.
what I am asking is that PvP not be left at the bottom of your "to do" list. That any PvP portion of your game be given as much attention as any other part.
I understand that Neverwinter will primarily be a PvE game, however I dont foresee PvE being much of an issue if the Foundry fullfills its potential.
As such my main concern is that recent MMO experiences have shown me that PvP can play a large part in the success or failure of a game. And i do so very much want Neverwinter to be a success.
Other titles on the MMO market have launched with extremely limited PvP content and little concern for that part of the game. It has then come as a surprise to those companies that large numbers of very vocal players have heavilly critisised those games for this seeming neglect. i'm not just talking about PvPers here, as even those who describe themselves as PvEers like to wet their blades with the blood of other players from time to time.
These companies have then been left playing catch-up in the PvP departement and having to accomodate PvP into their pre-planned post launch content expansions. See RIFT (Trion) for how to do catchup right, and SW:ToR (Bioware) for how to do it wrong.
This isn't a post asking for any specific styles of PvP, or demanding that you achieve the impossible by perfectly balancing classes.
what I am asking is that PvP not be left at the bottom of your "to do" list. That any PvP portion of your game be given as much attention as any other part.
Post edited by kronarchy on
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Don't however build a complete, parallel-to-PvE, competitive system where the gameplay and class design are built with PvP in mind. It will screw everything up and nothing will be great in the end.
I love PvP games like League of Legends or First Person Shooters. PvP driven games might have a few things considered overpowered but especially in recent years patches refine the game fairly well.
These games have little to no PvE action and it tends to be very bland and are not really engaging, short in length and exist only to complete an objective for the PvP content itself.
On the other hand PvE games have to do the opposite. PvP can only exist as an *optional* pastime to break up the monotony PvE creates. PvE games' PvP mechanics have NO INTEREST to me and I despise them with a passion but I don't mind if they exist.
However some games try to cross this line and give good PvE rewards for partaking in PvP content. One game I played gave experience buffs I would have done any PvE content religiously for to PvPers who said "what gives this doesn't help me PvP *drop*"
Giving rewards for PvP of any kind is a precarious situation and has to be handled correctly. In a PvE game developers HAVE to remember they're main bulk of players are not interested in PvP and can't be handing out giant cookies that make the PvE players feel short changed.
The safe route would be to give cosmetic rewards and rankings. It can vary game to game and certainly PvP rewards could be a little more in some cases but PvP content should be the lowest of the low.
Neverwinter is supposed to be a PvE game and the PvP is supposed to be a side game pastime. It can't be considered anything more without damaging the PvE experience.
For example, RF Online had some great ideas on PvP/RvR, but as a side effect the PvE was underdeveloped and dreadfully boring (you'd basically grind out XP and skills in order to play PvP on high levels). Still, if it's possible to have quality PvE content while keeping the same level of PvP integrations, I'd say why not.
That said, NWO is obviously not being developed as a RvR MMO, so there's little fear that PvP will break the game. At best, we'll get arena PvP akin to C9 (which is not all that bad, but it will inevitably split the player base into PvP and PvE).
Sounds like a good idea. Keep the rewards to fluff and maybe some non-power items from the cash shop.
PvE games can have interesting PvP but they have to make the clear distinction that the PvP is the side activity. When PvE games give too much dedication to supporting PvP I have only seen one result: damaged PvE quality.
PvP Games like League of Legends or First Person shooters are instance games. Levels and Gear normally make no difference during the fights so there's no build up or prep time in order to do well in the PvP activity. When PvP players play PvE games to PvP their first reaction is "what gives I have to spend time and effort doing this <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> before I can play the game!?"
When developers try to appeal to that type of audience they fail realize the problem is with the PvP players rather than the game and desecrate the actual game. It doesn't promote the PvP players to enjoy the game, they will always look at it as they would a first person shooter. The end result always hurts the PvE player experience by feeling undermined by PvP players who don't care about *the actual game.*
Games can and have tried to blend the two...but every game that tries to make a mix has failed miserably. Maybe it's possible to make a successful mix but I have no hope for one ever being created...
And I hope Cryptic stays away from the temptation to try.
PvP has it's place and should be developed and lightly promoted, but the game the Original Poster expressed desires for the same features I have seen cripple other games. I hope they release it soon after the game's release and don't let it sit in limbo but that is as far as my hopes for their "time and attention" to it go until the actual game is fleshed out and working properly.
- PvP will not be there at launch but will be added soon next year.
- PvP is more of an end game content. i.e. Players will be able to PvP only after reaching certain high level (e.g. perhaps can PvP only when reaching end of paragon tier).
- PvP would not be added thoughtlessly as devs have definite plans to integrate PvP properly into the game.
Where is that from? Last interview I saw regarding PvP was that it is a no touchy touchy topic atm only that it echos your bullet 1 and 3 as there are numerous undecided decisions and is a "work in progress" thing.
Totally untrue. WoW and GW2 (and possibly TSW) both have done equal deliverance of PvP and PvE. What most companies do though, like in SWTOR and DDO, is that they try to throw in PvP elements but half <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> it. Illium was a debaticle and Turbine never gave any real effort to PvP besides some tavern brawling. Some MMOs are focused on certain pillars of their game like PvP centric games (EVE) where PvE is practically nonexistant beyond ISK making and that is intentional as the game is not suppose to provide a great PvE experiance.
Heard so many interviews over these many months that I have kind of forgotten the source. But I think its the latest one. Perhaps athene? Can you have a look at athene and let me know if I am right?
I remember those comments Gillrmn posted as well. They were each stated by devs.
There were so many severely information-limited, half-answers given about a myriad of topics that at this point its all a wash, besides what's already been assembled in Truth's nicely done FAQ.
As far as I recall, PvP is not a focus at this point in time. The way I understood the few comments the devs made, as soon as the PvE element and the Foundry is up and running, they will spend some time on PvP. They made it obvious it wont be an after-thought, but it wont be the focus of this game either. It will be an addition. I think they'll make it a bit better than DDOs PvP. However, it will never rival PvE play, this just not that kind of game.
This game is PvE, with a future PvP addition promised.
Guild Wars is your game for those interested in PvP first, PvE 2nd or not at all.
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Because of curiosity and death of a few cats, I checked out Athene's interview and it is just after 2m. They are still deciding whether to have PvP just in the arena or something else, but it is going to be "all the way in the end". So I guess on epic levels.
And andre summarized it nicely. It is actually a PvE game with nicely integrated PvP - but I also don't think they will let the PvP bother those who just like PvE. Afterall, it is being advertised "like a D&D game should be".
I refuse to touch World of ******** so I haven't the slightest idea how it's PvP works so I can't comment on how well they did.
However as Andre mentioned I also find Guild Wars to be a PvP game with some PvE elements thrown into it; not a PvE or mixed game.
If you disagree it's up to you. Trust me I do agree DDO's PvP was worse than half assed and they did no justice to it. It may be fun to have a mosh pit of all players every once in a while but it gets boring fast.
PvP should be given a fitting arena with decent incentives, rewards and rule-sets.
But by no means should it be considered an equal part of the game. It's a sideshow attraction just as PvE is to Guild Wars.
I hope, truly, that the developers stick to that.
i dont know about your D&D campaigns, but there has never been anything in our tabletop games prohibiting one player from stabbing another in the back.
in fact in our most recent games there has been growing friction between my LN cleric and another players CG sorceror that can quite easilly blossom into interparty violence.
Even in NWN1 I've played characters who would take swings at other party members and start fights during DM events and such. Fun stuff especially because it's completely unlike how I truly am as a person.
However mediums never truly translate completely. There's nothing worse than walking out of a town to go start you adventure as a level 1 player and be killed by a level 20 for craps and giggles. In an MMO it would just be impractical to have free reign PvP due to the effort of differentiating between RP and griefing.
I'd love to allow PvP for roleplaying purposes but Cryptic has already said that there will only be one server.
This results in a couple of hiccups. First of all RP will likely make a much lower role than in NWN so the RP justification is less likely. Secondly not all people want to PvP so there's no chance for a "play at your own risk" server(s).
Again PvP has it's place. I'm not against it but even in the RP case PvP is the sideshow, not the main attraction. It should be treated as nothing more and nothing less.
I didn't say GW1 but GW2. GW1 was indeed a very PvP centric game but after years and surveys ANet realized how many people enjoyed PvE and they are making GW2 PvE a high priority along with PvP. But GW1 did have some great campaigns. Great first time through but afterwards not much there.
Having balanced PvE and PvP is very possible as long as the Devs put in the quality work. GW2 has been in production for a very very long time, maybe even the longest or one of the longest productions, and the result speak for itself. Be it PvE or PvP people in the BWE are having a blast and no complaints besides trolls or haters and many say it's the most fun they've had in an MMO in years.
Saying you can't balance PvP and PvE that provides a steller experience reminds me of the makers of Elder Scrolls Online saying that having player housing "is too hard" which is utter BS. It is achievable and neither side has to suffer as GW2 proves and WoW has proven for many years already.
warhammer was a mmo built for pvp yet it had no griefing at all. higher level players in lower level zones who flagged for pvp found themselves turned into chickens.
it might be worth me pointing out that my major interest in this game is that it is a D&D game, not that it might have pvp. pvp is just one element commonly found in mmos that i happen to enjoy. this doesnt mean that i wont or dont enjoy other elements of mmos.
i see now that it will have pvp, but not at launch. i am not actualy disappointed by this. in fact it reasures me that they will take the time required to make sure its done well and that it will mesh with the rest of the game.
that being said, when it finally is introduced and you find yourself wandering into some kind of pvp zone, watch your back, because i'll be painting a target on it
P.S. i used to play a mmo called shaiya, ftp korean mmo translated (sometimes poorly) into english. all the questing zones were pve, all the best armour/weapons were found in pve. but all the talismans (enchantments applied to your slotted gear) came from seperate pvp zones. this might seem horrorific to a dedicated pver, but everything was BoE. the result was a lively trade between those who preffered pve (selling gear) and those who preffered pvp (selling talismans).
If they do their job right there'll be no reason for me to be in it. ;-)
If there is any pvp I would want to see it staged in arenas like gladiatorial combat (borrowing from Dark Sun) where people could watch and bet. There would not be balancing for the arena as some classes would do better than others.
Another could be bare fist fights in some taverns and such. Again there could be spectators and betting.
I think some systems like that which are instanced and controlled could add immersion, diversion, and depth to the game world. Standard mmo pvp - class nerfing, endless balance chasing pvp.... No Thank You!
This is exactly why pvp areas must easily recognized and separated from all pve areas. What pvp'ers often find funny is not funny to someone just not interested in the genre.
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and i'm fine with that
you'll note i did specify a pvp zone in my above post.
also, its not a matter finding something funny, its a matter of finding something fun. which is the whole point of games in general.
i promise you, should i come across someone in a pvp area and they carve me a new one, i'll enjoy it just as much as if i was the one doing the carving.
there seems to be an idea that pvp equals some poor defensless bunny (pve player) being torn apart by a ravening troll (pvp player) with no hope of defending themselves. the outcome of the fight is a foregone conclusion.
sorry, but that sounds more like how pve encounters work to me.
No, in actuality, some might want to just walk around, do maintenance on their characters, or get ready for a quest they are about to do battle in, without having to look behind bushes/alleyways for some blood happy zit popper lurched for minutes/hours in some weeds looking to get his jolly rancher off by sniping someone minding their own business. You've just wasted not only their time, but the time of everyone else waiting for them to get to the quest because little Beavis had pop his cherry in the shade.
You are the type of mmo player that requires that PvP be sequestered in a game like this. You will be very unhappy with PvP in this game. Neverwinter PvP will not work the way you intend it to.
Guild Wars is for you. And GW1 and 2 will meet all your PvP needs nicely.
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I don't see your point still. Are you saying that your campaigns are primarily PvP and not PvE? Whatever you do with the game, the game will still remain primarily PvE. That is what D&D is - primarily PvE. No matter how you try to view from any point of view, it will still remains primarily PvE. Unfortunately some truths in this world can't be changed.
That is exactly what D&D is not about. For games of carving fun, I will go play a proper PvP game. Those game are supposed to be like that and are fun. But D&D is about stories of adventures and journeys to fantasy lands.
And where did you get this ideal that PvP would be an open pvp gankfest? All this hate makes one wonder where it all stemmed from. Did some open PvP did you that resulted in some very bad experience?
Reminds of a lady's husband I ride with. We love riding horses but the husband won't touch one and rarely comes out to watch. When he was young he tried to ride a pony which bucked him off or he fell off and hit his head on the fence. Hasn't gotten on a horse since then.
Take a blue pill and unless you have something constructive to say then say it and if not, which is the case here, then stay quite. What is you personal taste does not reflect everyone else's nor is it the direction of Neverwinter. This thread is for the PvPers or some discussion about PvP and not a PvE vs PvP bickering pissing contest.
Fact: There WILL be PvP so might as well discuss it in a productive manner instead of this bickering which is what always happens when PvP is talked about because of all the naysayers here.
Another fun lil fact, the PvPer that "get his jolly rancher off by sniping someone minding their own business" are the same side of the coin as the elitest in DDO that are complete asshats or those that troll general chat channels with things like 'Anal Rend." Your getting these asshats be it in PvE or PvP and these PvPers are only encountered in open PvP which no MMO does anymore and is a died out very nitch crowd. CCP continues this but the very vast majority of MMOs allow PvP in only consented forms. So bringing that up as a point is pointless.
People need to stop foaming at the mouth and grabbing pitchforks and torches at the mention of PvP.
Funny how people say that D&D is this and that because it's completely subjective. And in reality D&D is about role-playing which over 90% of the people who will play Neverwinter will not do. And PvP is as much part of D&D as PvE because everything should be about choices and playing your character. There is no evil side of things and everything is goody goody lil two shoe which has put a sever constraint on the game. People need to stomp trumping this game as this true D&D online game, this will be D&D inspired but not in any shape or form a true D&D game and will be first and foremost an MMO inspired by D&D.
So what is your opinion when asked if D&D is primarily PvP or primarily PvE game?
In PnP a small party is formed and they fight environment - whether traps, diplomacy checks, monsters or anything else.
There are no rules for duels to make them fair or balanced in pnp.
That is why I said it is primarily PvE. did I say something wrong?
Do you even recognize which one of your derrieres does the bulk of the talking any longer?
Your gimmick is basically sitting at your screen and responding negatively to everyone you disagree with. That's original.
Let me sum up 99% of your posts that I've read. "I like PvP." "I don't like anyone who doesnt like PvP." "This isnt a D&D game."
Good luck playing Neverwinter... ya know, that officially licensed D&D product that is not really a D&D product but will be based solely on 4th edition ruleset which so happens to be creatively owned by that WotC company that still happens to OWN the copyright to D&D.
PEACE!
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DnD is built around party/PVE content.... if anything, player ve player content is shunned in DnD. Unless the characters are role-playing training with each other.
I am not opposed to pvp being in the game. If its there I may partake to change things up in an "arena" format. But it is certainly not why I would play this game.
i didnt start this thread because i'm a pvp lover looking for a pvp game.
i started it because i'm a D&D lover who has enjoyed the pvp aspect of previous mmos.
In MMO's which are PvE with added features that are PvP this tends to be dominant. I've stated in other threads that even my first experience on a minecraft server was walking out of town limits to be slaughtered by some geared up guy. Obviously Minecraft's not an MMO but PvE Games PvP tends to be limited to three PvP styles.
Tournament Arenas are interesting but tend to be luck of the draw. With a lot of effort they could be balanced correctly and made enjoyable but I've never really liked any automated tournaments that I've seen thus far.
Challenge Arenas are fun against friends but irritating with randoms. Basically it's a time waster to kill each other for fun unless you want to bet on who wins. What this tends to do is make people find loopholes in the game mechanics to get an edge because in PvE balanced games PvP is more level and class based than skill based.
Free Reign PvP in MMO's just makes me grit my teeth at the players. It's almost like they take their frustration on being bullied in their personal life and get joy from the turnaround when they are the powerful in their fantasy world.
Paintballing has been described to me like going deer hunting except the deer has a gun too. It's a great thrill to know that you're both the hunter and the hunted but free reign PvP in MMO's has fallen short of this because there's too many variables.
I may want to just do 1v1 PvP and get piled by 20 people which is all fine except they normally then get vocal on how great they are for molesting me 20v1. I then may go out with a group of 20 people and when the pickings get slim they decide instead of killing randoms they're going to kill members of the group which breaks every moral standard I have.
If I PvP I'm out to have a good time and a good time to me means a somewhat fair fight. PvPers tend to lack a moral compass and kill the first thing that moves. If I'm level 60 I'm not going to kill a level 5 because he crossed my path. I'm not going to do anything except ruin his fun.
Like I keep saying, PvP isn't bad and it has it's place but I don't enjoy it outside of a PvP game.
The only thing worse than over-developing PvP in a PvE game is forcing Non-PvP players into a PvP Area by giving the best PvE drops or experience rewards in a PvP area...and that's my experience of free reign PvP MMO's.
Honestly it's like Free Reign PvP goes hand in hand with offering the pigs up for slaughter as if lower levels or Non-PvP players are livestock. That's only fun to the brutish and frankly immature PvP community.