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Fantasy Armor and Weapons, Not Realistic.
trikiran
Member Posts: 122 Bounty Hunter
Please continue with the D&D mindset of Fantasy over realism armor and weapons. It is sad to see horrible realistic armor replace sharp looking fantasy armor.
Games are fantasy, I expect to see fantasy armor protecting people such as barbarin armor or plate bikini's as much as I expect to see people throwing around fireballs and casting healing spells. it's moronic to associate fantasy armor with the laws of reality, A game is not based in reality, it's a game. please learn the differance.
EDIT**
As far as the opinions go seems that advanced armor/weapon customization would be the very best road to go on, we have people wanting huge shoulder pads, and others refusing the very idea. I hope cryptic is adding a full on armor customization feature at launch, would be a great cash shop/crafting feature.
Games are fantasy, I expect to see fantasy armor protecting people such as barbarin armor or plate bikini's as much as I expect to see people throwing around fireballs and casting healing spells. it's moronic to associate fantasy armor with the laws of reality, A game is not based in reality, it's a game. please learn the differance.
EDIT**
As far as the opinions go seems that advanced armor/weapon customization would be the very best road to go on, we have people wanting huge shoulder pads, and others refusing the very idea. I hope cryptic is adding a full on armor customization feature at launch, would be a great cash shop/crafting feature.
Post edited by trikiran on
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A lot of players actually complained on the Neverwinter Siege trailer that the trickster rogue's armor was overly scanty and wasn't fit to be worn for combat. ;-)
My most humble opinion is that of all the fantasy games D&D is the one most set in reality. Everything has an explanation and nothing happens just to happen. Monks for instance wear cloth armor to keep up their mobility and use that in lieu of physical armor. Their defense is to just never get hit.
They're not under-attired just to be under-attired.
Real armor can be very drab though and shouldn't be held to it. In history few were even able to afford to protect themselves more than throwing a leather poncho over their body as you see in Rambo: First Blood so really any armor you see in any games is highly stylized as they should be.
But I do believe therehas to be some sort of standard. I wouldn't mind Bikini Plates although I wouldn't necessarily say I would vote to put them in...but I wouldn't want them to be considered anything above leather armor.
There does have to be some realism to the extent that if you're running around in underwear, metal or not, then you're not truly armored.
Fantasy or not, I can't see any reason to release Metal Bikini's and give them full plate protection. It's right in the name honestly and they still can't even be considered half plate or breasteplate because both imply the legs and arms are covered with leather or chainmail.
EDIT - Those Fireballs and Healing Spells follow rules as well. They're not all-powerful. Healing a severed hand for instance, in pen and paper D&D, results in a stub just like reality. It doesn't regrow the hand.
Fantasy or not, D&D isn't a realm without physical laws loosely based on our own.
Yes, everything follows rules However.... I'd like to disagree with your point about D&D realism, Yes the LORE is well set with rules and formed to be more realistic then some other games where you are a walking death machine.
However the art and style of D&D has always been Fantasy. Let me Quote from Jon Schindehette one of the core members of Wizards of the coast and his take on the Art and Style of D&D.
Realism. Although every medium (as in visual medium?film, print, video game, comic, and so on) will have its own specific requirements, I want the core of D&D to be built around realism. To be straight, when I say realism, I'm not talking about an art movement, photorealism, or some philosophical argument. Instead, I'm talking about taking a stand regarding where each creation fits within the D&D universe. I don't want weapons twice the size of the character. I don't want armor that looks impossible to move in. I want to have a world that makes sense.
Fantasy. Now I'm going to turn everything I just said on its ear. The settings of Dungeons & Dragons are full of magic. Magic breaks the rules of reality. It makes everything that it touches "unrealistic." Floating cities, magic weapons, and ancient magic artifacts the size of an elephant shouldn't be realistic. They should live in a world of "unreasonableness." Magic is what separates D&D from the mundane world. So although we might want the world grounded in realistic interpretations, wonder should spring forth everywhere that magic touches the world.
RPG's are open to interpretation, including the artwork and no-ones taste or opinion is wrong and this will just lead to bickering which won't get anywhere
However, given the game has not even be released been released yet I would not be surprised if armour/equipment etc will be made to suit most tastes during the course of Neverwinters life.
Naturally, the intelligent adversaries they fought made called shots against their arms and legs on occasion, which eventually lead to them wearing more and more until they had a full suit of chain mail on and then later went back to the piece-mail when they came across a pair of bracers of defense.
I was then nice and secretly tossed in a ring of protection+1 in a loot roll after their bracers were drained of magic by a special Hakeashar.
I'm not sure how 4e handles piece-mail, however. Fantastical and Realistic armor and attire both have an equal share of usefulness and a place in Dungeons & Dragons and Forgotten Realms is a very good example of the extreme variance in types of armor that is available.
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However as a rebuttal, you are talking like D&D is an anime such as Bleach where people swing swords twice as big as their bodies as fast as they would a butter knife. That's not D&D.
The Magic of D&D and the Martial Arts of it are two separate entities. They work together but they are not one and the same.
The martial arts are fantasy in the sense that even the legendary Achilles was probably nothing in comparison to a level 5 fighter. Sword fighting in D&D is more akin to lightsaber duels where fights are based on instinct (the force) rather than conscious reactions. However the martial arts still follow the same basic rules that if you have no armor over a spot of your body you will get cut if you get hit there.
If you're not wearing armor then you're not wearing armor.
In any case a simple search for the piecemail rules confirms everything. D&D has magic in it's core but the laws of reality are just as real there *unless* altered by magic. Sorry but you'll find that in any D&D Handbook or Forgotten Realms Novel.
The martial arts bend the rules of the human ability, not the real world laws of physics.
EDIT - Ah you edited while I was typing Zeb. Yeah the only piecemail rules I could find were 3.5 Ed and earlier, but in any case I doubt they would simply do away with it.
Indeed I am not against stretching the realism and making armor look more aesthetic than functional but there's an extent to that. I would stretch a full plate to not have metal sleeves or for leather armor to only be a jerkin. That doesn't phase me, I'm not a stickler like that, but when items pass from being more aesthetically pleasing to outright lacking functionality it's crosses the line, especially in the Forgotten Realm Setting.
I want my fantasy armor, too.
I am all for the realistic side in the fantasy world setting when it comes to the clothing/armour.
If I understand where Trikiran is coming from , I just want my armours/clothing to match my body size. Abviously full armour will be somewhat bulky in the first place, but I don't want to be the averaged sized toon unarmoured, then when I get it on I look like I just stepped into a sherman tank.
Keep the armour/clothing scaled to the class/person wearing it, this goes for the weapons as well. Just beacause it's a +5 great sword doesn't mean it has to look like I can hit someone 50 feet from me.
I wouldn't complain if I seen some skin on any toon, but I can't see those armours being realistic in a dungean dive, unless your a rogue or monk. You need that freedom of movement.
Have whatever armours are allowed in the NWO world setting, just ( this is for the Devs ) design them with some style and good taste, with good attention to detail.
I know that there are some very nice armours in the DDO realm, some are just aweful, and look like they just threw the designs together almost like a cut out, but then there are others that I swear I can count the chain links on them.
If you can design armour and clothing like that, that would be a step in the right direction.
Honestly, when I'm in a dungeon I could care less what my armour looks like it's AC thats important then, however when I'm back in town and strolling around there is nothing wrong with a little fashion.
Cheers! Galahad
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
It is about consistency. Faerun is more akin to medivial times setting. So armor prelavant during that time should be taken into consideration. Otherwise the game will loose its consistency.
If you are going to break the consistency, you might as well put a light saber in the loot.
Amen to that Bruv
Signed
Agreed with that ! if i see some HAMSTER armours with cristals on you're shoulders and a skull up you're HAMSTER i will delete the game instantly.
Madness ? This is D&D !!!!
I'd want a leather bikini top and belt skirt if I'm playing a Bard archer with 20 Dex who's going to run around strutting her stuff while shooting arrows and casting spells with minimal encumberance.
At the same time, I don't want my frontliner Paladin with a HAMSTER tower shield to be stuck with Victoria's Secret Plate Mail
And yes, I know there's no Bards and Paladins planned yet b:cry
That skull saved me many o' nights in the brig sir.
So, movement should be 10% of normal and weapon swings should be about 2 every minute. normal plate armour should be around 60-80 pounds, would limit movement and jumping would be out of the question.
Swiming in any armor above light leather should result in drowning.
So you see, Games, are not real and real world physics should not be used in "every" way when it comes to rulesets. There is a happy middle ground of realism and fantasy in both ruleset and artistic looks. Most people want a middle ground, but pure realism is not even remotely possible in the D&D world.
And when a guy in full plate with a sheild and sword is jummping around or swiming that makes me uncomfortable, Oh but then I remember that this is a game and has Nothing to do with real life.
Personally; I prefer realistic armor over that of grossly fantastical armor of some MMOs. Swords as large as surfboards, hammers and axes larger than horses, armor so full of spikes that would prevent actual limb movement or shoulders taller than one's head... these things significantly impact my suspension of disbelief which is an essential ingredient for any form of storytelling.
That said; I can tolerate fantasy armor designed within realistic perimeters. MMO gear does not have to be historically accurate... just realistically usable.
All that said; leather that acts like plate... partial armor that counts for full coverage... don't care. Call it magic and move on. If I stab myself in the head with my Spiked Shoulders of Doom every time I swing my Surf-Sword; I won't be playing this game.
Amen to light sabers?
*thinks*
'What have I done? Oh dear! Have I broken the space time continuum by proposing that?'
*gathers the adventuring gear*
'Time to go and look at Cthulhu to have enough San Loss to be able to play such a game...'
As I said, it was consistency of the realm than realism, but your arguments are already present in game mechanics.
You see, if you put a full-plate on ordinary citizen of NW, he would not be able to walk, forget swim. Later however, he may call guards who will then put you on trial for attempting to murder an npc by crushing him.
However, the PC in the game are not normal people. They have CON and STR. And +1 of any stat matters a lot to differentiate b/w adventurers and commonfolks.
So what you are saying, are all considered already.
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Now that is aside; many games are already being criticized for portraying most female characters in games as 'stupid damsel in distress' or other bikinimail stereotypes - which has lead to portrayal of less shallow appearances for many (both male and female) characters in recent games. For example, Alyx Vance, Hildegard von Krone etc. which are actually quite popular. It wouldn't matter what choices are if my characters are shallow. But, if I base my character on popular figures in real history (like joan of arc - with high WIS, CON and STR and LG), I would like normal dignified clothes for such characters which represent their endevour in life.
I would like a few characters to be wearing skimpy looking dresses e.g. in Moonstone Mask(or those kind of places) but at other places I would like that characters wear clothes which make them aware of their dignity (or what they consider dignity in those realms). That said, if succubus appear, please make them certainly 'fleshy'.
EDIT: If anyone wants to know which dignity for PC I am talking about, I would refer to this situation in well known comic.
Most of fantasy (if not all) has a strong base on our reality. They usually have a yellow sun, gravity like ours, atmosphere and weather that work like ours,... There are also differences in whatever the author needs/wants. That thing called "Magic"? Sorry, just an unkown (for the non initiated) set of laws of physics that differ from our (realistic) world. Unless you are writing/reading fantasy for kids (Harry Potter) were you can kick realism in the nuts anytime you want, serious fantasy tends to use some solid background for all its elements. Things have a reason in it even if the readers don't get to know the innards of it. Using Fantasy as excuse for giant shoulderpads a la WoW or chainmail bikinis a la Red Sonja... yeah, sure, to each his own. Harry Potter universe is fine as long as you don't try to analize its "realism" (which kids don't tend to do anyways).
D&D 4 has a very nice art showing different kind of visuals for the same types of armours. Each race has its own style that differs from the "realistic" type from a visual poiint of view while still being "solid" enough as not to fall in the retardedness of non magical chainmail bikini* (which would be ok if men wereto wear manbikinis but that doesn't seem to happen. Maybe men would need to shave?
About jumping and swimming with heavy stuff, what's the problem? Let them try. It wouldn't be the first time a player of mine loses a character because swimming in heavy armour is not a good idea. Even if he has uber strength. Hell, my P&P AD&D half-elven bard had to desist about using a greatsword by the simple fact that she lacked the strength needed to use it. Had to use a HAMSTER sword instead.
* if at least we are talking of some kind of magical chainmail/plate bikini that has some kind of forcefield (much like a ring of protection), then it could be ok to a point. But then, they may as well wear a ring of protection and be without clothes or armour. Just for mobility, of course. Nothing about pleasing some male gamers.b:chuckle
Your point of argument is very extream. and honesty tries to insult many other people in this community. I don't see how I can treat such rude arguments with respect, All I will say is that you clearly want game and real life to be as close and blurred together as possible, I don't know how you think this is possible, or how the idea of dragons undead and magic spells are close to "real" But I will respect it as your choice of playstyle.
All I am asking for is equal options for artistic style and look, I dont know any seven foot tall barbarin males that walk around in full plate, and for the sake of my playstyle I want to see traditional D&D barbarian style armor for him.
Exactly.
You might not mean to be saying it or not but your entire argument boils down to 'because this is fantasy it should have nothing to do with reality.' I don't find anything she or anybody else said to be rude it's simply rebutting your argument with examples, in this case farting rainbows.
Nobody said armor should be 100% historically accurate but they shouldn't defy belief. Fantasy bends reality's rules but doesn't directly break them without reason.
Magic is a defined bend of the rules but just because magic exists doesn't mean everything else defies belief.
As always gillrmn came up with the short and simple answer, all fantasy has to have some consistency.
I don't dislike Anime or Final Fantasy. They're all excellent fantasy entertainment but their laws are well defined. For instance Dragonball made it quite clear strength made people able to fight faster than the speed of light. People moving faster than the speed of light defies belief but is justified in the fantasy setting.
Nothing quality fantasy entertainment makes throws us off because there's some sort of consistency with their abilities.
Your argument falls shorts because D&D has already set up consistencies and metal bikini's break them.
Nobody said barbarians should have to use plate armor because you can still make a kick HAMSTER barbarian in leather armor. However effectiveness of armor should be consistent with the D&D genre, which is that metal underwear is still underwear and unless you possess a god's strength (and unconstrained by video game limits) a sword twice as big as you is useless.
Short and Sweet Summary:
Toril has the name physical laws as the real world.
Magic outright defies these laws in *specific* instances. (normally for a limited time)
Certain bends in real laws have been made. I.E. Armor is lighter and Martial Artists Display Inhuman Expertise.
Basically if it isn't magical and isn't a defined bend from reality then reality applies.
Plate armor which was worn on the battlefield was 40 to 60 lbs and well distributed evenly over the body instead of suspended on the shoulders like chain haubrek. The weight of a full suit of chainmail was about the same as plate harness.
souces - Knights by Andrea Hopkins
European Arms & Armour by Charles Ashdown
Armourer and his Craft from the XIth to XVIth Century by Charles Foulks
One could jump and vault onto a horse in it. One could swim in it too if one new how to swim to begin with. One could climb a ladder.
Pieces of historical armor wieghing 150 lbs or more are examples of tilting armor used for sport and ceremony only.
There is a period of transition from full mail to full plate in the mid 14th century where knights often wore both about 100lbs.
In the 15th century plate armor really came into its own and mail was worn only to supplement it at vulnerable joints or at areas which needed extra mobility such as hip and groin. It wieghed between 40 and 60 lbs and during this period the shield was no longer needed because of the protection given by it or perhaps its because one needed a poleaxe or two handed weapon to harm anyone in it.
I personally would love to see examples of milanese, Gothic and Maximillian plate harness.
For a visual metaphore a monk in D&D would seem like Neo from the Matrix dodging blow after blow at unbelievable angles. It's not called uncanny dodge for no reason.
However a normal fighter uses their armor as a forgiveness factor. Ideally they will parry or block blows but if one slips by then the armor would at least minimise the damage caused.
It would make sense if a monk was fighting in a metal bikini without being negatively effected by the exposure. However a normal fighter doesn't have the same discipline and mobility of a monk and a class that doesn't *require* but highly benefits from armor should be adequately punished for wearing metal underwear.
By all means not every class should be running around in full plate; chainmail should be a decent option for fighters to wear. But we're not dealing with superheroes lacking fear of their own mortality. As Zaknafein said to Drizzt, "You can win a thousand fights, but you can only lose one."
That's at the heart of D&D. Video Games adapt the totality of death that is very apparent in many of the PnP campaigns but that doesn't mean characters should lose fear of their mortality for the sake of aesthetics.
"Don't bring a knife to a gunfight"
I think I had to read five other posts before I understood correctly what kind of saber you meant here. In the meantime I was trying to figure out why a saber, light or heavy, broke the Forgotten Realms canon. There are pirate and cavalry sabers in FR!
Cripes, how much of a nerd does that make me?
I don't think it was insulting, just an extreme hypothetical situation to put across the viewpoint. And one point shiaika tried to explain was that D&D is a serious fantasy based on rulesets. These rules are very close to our world.
@aavarius Happens to me all the time, that is why I use golden rule - When in doubt, google it. :-)
though my mistake too, I should have used 'lightsaber' instead.
A "real" warrior and a D&D warrior do not have the same strength. My lv30 fighters in NWN2 could reach upwards to 42 strength - which is way more than the real-life equivalent of your average warrior... Real-life warriors also do not have access to magical rings of Freedom of Movement and the like...
So, the analogy is not really that valid.
Anyway, all fantasy settings have a set of laws they follow. They are not the same as in the real world, but they are always close. The only real difference most of the time is that magic takes the role of technology in most places.
A world with little resemblance to the real world, or even none at all, is not a Fantasy world. If you find yourself in a world with, say, a purple skyline full of eyeballs crying red tears, reversed gravity, clouds made of jelly and inhabited by giant black worms with 3 heads and 5 hands and covered with mouths full of sharp teeth, then you wouldn't call that a fantasy world would you? You'd call it a dream realm, or perhaps more appropriately a nightmare world.
Realistic worlds with a few crucial differences from reality are Fantasy. No resemblance to reality is Dreams...
And that is why I only play with western orthodox monks. >:(
Having a completely realistic approach to armors in a game would simply be boring. You'd all be wearing chainmail and plate, without much change in appearance and somewhere it would say that your bronze armor is inferior compared to the iron or steel one - yet they would both be pretty much the same in appearance.
So a certain dose of stylization is necessary in a game, but not so much as to make the armor completely impractical.
I personally wouldn't really like to have huge shoulders with huger spikes dripping molten lava over other spikes that are on fire with skulls stuck in between them - all of that in a bright red yellow combination.
That kind of stuff really doesn't fit into D&D, leave such silly cartoonish sets to WoW where they belong.
Warhammer for example has over the top armors but in the context of that universe they make quite a bit of sense. Wouldn't work in Forgotten Realms, at least not for me.