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Tank Classes, More then one please.
trikiran
Member Posts: 122 Bounty Hunter
Alright, bringing this topic to the main thread as the class threads equaled zero response of a useful nature. Be forward that I will be mentioning other mmo's and whilst it is the fastest way to directly compare the topic I am covering I do not wish to bring B is better then C debate into this thread.
Alright class roles. While imho the Trinity system offers the best balance and reliance for players in group events some of the class roles with respect to the play-style can get a little boring. Mainly tanking, in MANY mmo's tanks are hard to come by, with wow you had tanks charging players for dungeon runs because they were so rare. but many new mmo's have added more tank classes and types.
Cleric tanking, Heavy aoe healing and persistent aoe damage for holding threat, Shield or off hand item used for warding off hits. This is a common tanking play-style found in several games.
Rogue tanking, An evasion based rogue with a stance for defense, relies in high threat taunts and teleports, This can be seen in Rift, SWTOR, Tera and a few other mmo's This is ALSO seen in the most recent cinematic from Neverwinter, As the rogue is clearly tanking the mobs and goes straight for the "boss" to tank him. even removing more of her armor in the process to be more mobile.
Large weapon tanks. I don't need a D#@! Shield!, Often a pole-arm or great sword tank that deals in high large sweeping attacks and sword wards or styles to mitigate damage.
Woad warrior tanks, A actual historical infantry known for their survivability.
Monk tanks, This is pretty common even in popular culture movies.
Dualist single sword mobility.
Range tanks, Long range weapons with bomb like aoe's and the ability to kite mobs quite well.
Wizard tanks, The best example I can think of for this is battle chasers comic.
With the exception of tera, NO mmo has had great tank presence at launch, Far to often to many dps are rolled. I prefer to tank, but after years and years of playing sword and shield I have grown to enjoy twitch tanking far more.
I would also be VERY disappointed if the only tank class is that of a fighter.
Alright class roles. While imho the Trinity system offers the best balance and reliance for players in group events some of the class roles with respect to the play-style can get a little boring. Mainly tanking, in MANY mmo's tanks are hard to come by, with wow you had tanks charging players for dungeon runs because they were so rare. but many new mmo's have added more tank classes and types.
Cleric tanking, Heavy aoe healing and persistent aoe damage for holding threat, Shield or off hand item used for warding off hits. This is a common tanking play-style found in several games.
Rogue tanking, An evasion based rogue with a stance for defense, relies in high threat taunts and teleports, This can be seen in Rift, SWTOR, Tera and a few other mmo's This is ALSO seen in the most recent cinematic from Neverwinter, As the rogue is clearly tanking the mobs and goes straight for the "boss" to tank him. even removing more of her armor in the process to be more mobile.
Large weapon tanks. I don't need a D#@! Shield!, Often a pole-arm or great sword tank that deals in high large sweeping attacks and sword wards or styles to mitigate damage.
Woad warrior tanks, A actual historical infantry known for their survivability.
Monk tanks, This is pretty common even in popular culture movies.
Dualist single sword mobility.
Range tanks, Long range weapons with bomb like aoe's and the ability to kite mobs quite well.
Wizard tanks, The best example I can think of for this is battle chasers comic.
With the exception of tera, NO mmo has had great tank presence at launch, Far to often to many dps are rolled. I prefer to tank, but after years and years of playing sword and shield I have grown to enjoy twitch tanking far more.
I would also be VERY disappointed if the only tank class is that of a fighter.
Post edited by trikiran on
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Sort of.
I've already touched base on this in other threads, but I'll elaborate. Neverwinter is going to be based off 4e Dungeons and Dragons. This means that the game doesn't follow the 'holy trinity' format of class roles, rather a the version of class roles present in 4e. This includes Defenders, Strikers, Leaders and Controllers. Out of those four, the closest to a 'Tank' type would be a Defender.
Now, that being said, Defenders are more about aggro control than out right defense. It treats threat offensively, usually tied together with a special ability called 'marking' (in tabletop). A target that is marked finds it harder to attack anyone aside from the defender, and the defender usually gets abilities that punish such attacks.
While defenders do -tend- to get a decent level of armor, they aren't the only ones. Some Leaders (like Clerics) have decent armor as well. Medium armor allows for a character to add Dexterity into their Armor Class. Strikers (Damage Dealers) like rogues get this. Therefore, it is possible for some builds of Fighter to have lower AC than Leaders or Clerics.
On top of this DnD often has multiple defenses, which are usually targetted by spells and special effects. Reflex, Will and Fortitude save each have a different theme as to what can hit them, and depending on class and feats, could be the highest score (Wizards tend to have high Will Defense).
Edit: With this being said, the Fighter is a Defender. In tabletop, his mark ability allows the Fighter to get free attacks on adjacent targets that attempt to move away or targets anyone other than the Fighter.
In 4e there is no medium armor at least not according to the players handbook. Its either light or heavy. Light armor is cloth leather and Hide armor and one gets ac bonus from stats. Heavy armor is Chanmail, Scale and Plate and one gets no ac bonus from stats.
The fighter does start with the best Ac right from the start of his career other classes such as the cleric can match that Ac later in there career it will cost em 4 feats. 2 in armor proficiency and 2 in shield proficiency. So a non human cleric could match a warriors Ac at level 6 a human cleric at level 4. So in game terms with neverwinter i believe 10 levels =30 thus at level 18 or 12.
A fighter at level 1 using one feat for plate armor and using a heavy shield will have a 10 Ac. This will cost him 60 of his 100 starting gold.
A light armored adventurer which gets a stat bonus to ac will be hard pressed to have a 7or 8 AC at level 1. Point buy is brutal on folks who want to start with an 18 and buying feats to increase your armor or shield proficiencies are tough choices for some classes.
I misspoke and meant to say Light. My bad. As far as Fighters getting the best AC, this isn't what I've seen in practice. Plate Mail + Shield is hella expensive.
Tank is how they will sell the game to people from traditional MMOs (like wow) people. So yeah we have a "tank"
<<But shh... yeah the secret is we have defender; no I didn't say that>>
If tank is ability to take, avoid damage, all classes can be tanks without AC. 4e has a different playstyle than other editions as Khoraxgator nicely explained.
Regarding armor being only heavy and light, its just a classification of names. The ability to wear armor(feats and stuff) comes indiviually and not bundled like light or heavy. They have all the armors of previous editions. e.g. default armor of cleric is uptill chainmail only, though full plate is also heavy like chainmail.
I believe Dex-based classes like rogue would have less reaction times in dodges, while those rogue having more armor on and less dex would have higher reaction times. Just a guess though.
EDIT: And this is from the perspective of game, not pnp.
Wizards: theres control wizard that is all about control and war wizard which is more striker than control.
Clerics: well battle cleric can work as "off-tank" maybe coz he will probably have good dmg mitigation (old ac/saves i guess) and ofc they can also deal with healing (maybe this role will have rise shield on shift click, maybe... :P), the other one is devote cleric which is who stay a bit more behind healing and supporting party.
Figther: obviosly the guardian fighter who is the "tank" and theres great weapon fighter role which is more a striker role than defender.
Rogue: Trickster and Brawny roles both heavy strikers.
Ofc, we dont have a clue if those are the roles we will get, but to be honest i think those roles will be implemented coz they are "standard" roles for those classes. But more can be add, theres more books with more roles and since this is not pnp maybe they have their own created roles with wotc help/approvment.
Also we dont have a clue if we will be "forced" to follow those roles, but thats another topic
Anyways, just posting some roles that we might be able to see ingame.
"Roles" in 4e means a bit more than 'This is the way the class looks'. Specific roles get set abilities. All Defenders can mark. All leaders get a heal and all Strikers can do bonus damage to attacks.
Plate mail is 50 gold and a heavy shield is 10 gold and every character starts with 100 gold very easy for a 1st level fighter to have on day one of his carreer. The fighter can still buy a weapon or two and still have cash left over.
Its too bad seems 4e kinda got rid of the normal armor progression from previous versions. Long gone are the days where at the start of you carreer a fighter might have a chain haubrek and a weapon or two. Saving every penny to afford plate mail and dreaming about the day he might own a suit of field plate.
There are battlerager and tempest fighter too and all of them are "tanks". Guardian fighter is called so because it is sword and board fighter.
Maybe the defender "concept" will be there, but I think we're putting the cart before the horse if we're really expecting this MMO not to play like an MMO.
It's been said by the devs that the Fighter class doesn't tank in ways that players expect. They do get a 'mark' ability. It sounds like the PnP version to me.
We were actually drawing this conclusion from the gameplay video. I don't remember which one, but the one in which they demo and explain fighter side by side. It has powers like a defender - i.e. it engages the enemy and when the enemy near it tries to attack others and not fighter, the fighter get special attacks which stun the opponent or damage it.
Also the utility is the same as pnp (and daggerdale btw) for the guardian fighter which is to raise up the shield. Wizards teleport, rogue rolls and cleric should heal(as in daggerdale). That is the reason, and not just a wild guess.
EDIT: From what I have seen till now, the game is really faithful to pnp while incorporating as much active combat as possible.
Hrm, I hadn't heard that, but I'll take your word on it.
Still, I'm determined to remain skeptical until I get my hands on gameplay. I'm not convinced that a direct 1:1 conversion from pen and paper to MMO gameplay is a good thing, though.
All right, back to speculation, guys!
From what I have followed from all the interviews and demonstrations till now is that it is not a 1:1 conversion, more like 1:1 conversion is made then modified based on what would be convenient for the MMO. So the basic mechanics (like defenders instead of tanks) are there, but they have removed healing surges because potions etc. would be more convenient in game(unlike pnp where you have limited resources).
So, the places where you get feats to attack would be the same but the attack type, its animation, what it does may be different than pnp.
Also 4e is more like MMO itself so it doesn't need a lot of conversion.
A person without any background in tis four role party would not actually be able to tell a lot of difference b/w defender and a tank, but will fell "something" is different.
Yup that is what i was doing... just speculating :P
I just mention those builds coz they are the "standart" of players Handbook I. (and i know theres more bulds for "tank" in other books)
I remember the interview with pokket when zeke said trinity will be in neverwinter so we know things will be a bit diferent from pnp, powers might work a bit diferent from pnp to allow the tank to do more agro, maybe mark will work diferently aswell coz in pnp mark doesnt mean the mob will hit the fighter all the time.
Also im a bit intrigued to see how the utility(shift button) will work on diferent classes or builds..... will all figthers have the same utility which is rise his shield or weapon/s to reduce the incoming dmg ?? or will a great weapon fighter will have a small shift to avoid dmg ?? will the war wizard have a teleport as utility like the control wizard or he will have a extra dmg powers, will a devote cleric have a healing utility and a battle cleric have a rise shield to mitgate the dmg ??
My point is, do u guys think the utility/shift button will be the same for all classes beside what build u chose ? or will diferent builds will have a diferent utility type. I think thats an important question to make coz i trully believe that not all figters(for example) will be "tanks" so theres no use to have rise shield as utility.
PS: All those roles i mention above were just used to showing examples nothing more.
Edit: Defenders in pnp D&D doesnt mean u will be a "tank" and controlers doesnt mean u will CC everything. Still, we dont know hows its gonna be translted to an MMO
It a very good point and was in discussion when truth was writing his FAQs. AT two places the trinity was talked about specifically, one was a website which specifically states trinity of tank, healer and damager (one which had really bad grammar) and other was this interview. However, at all other official statements, it has been maintained that four roles of defender striker leader and controller would be present.
It is my opinion that to not confuse people not familiar with this four-role system, the devs never say no to trinity but yes. But after talking a bit, they always revert to its true name of defender and the role system.
EDIT: Discussion about this is on 20th post onwards in new FAQs. It would be better if this thing is cleared once and for all.
EDIT: It seems to be like if an important client calls, and colleague is going to come in after five minutes, the co-worker will recieve a call and ask the client to hold while he calls the colleague from coffee machine... ok, maybe a bad example, but sort of.
I'm like Dr. Silverback.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Um...because we are both gorillas and stuff.
Defenders all have a 'mark' ability. When engaging an opponent, they can choose to 'mark' a target. They usually have to attack that target during that turn, or at least include that target as part of an attack. Marked targets get a penalty to attack anyone aside from the Defender that placed it.
Each defender class has a power that can be used when a marked target tries to act. Fighters, for instance, get a free attack against marked targets that try to move away or attack anyone other than the Fighter. Paladins, on the other hand, can deal damage directly to targets that do not include the Paladin, or mitigate the damage done to allies that are attacked my the Marked Target. Wardens can slow the target to prevent them from getting away, etc, etc.
In other words, Marking a target forms more of a taunt ability than anything else. The target will want to engage the Fighter or forgo attacks on his allies for fear of repercussion. They act more as Aggro control.
on topic
Nice summary.
maybe off topic but an afterthought
One more thing to note is that the trinity will never really work with modern AI. If a monster does predictable things, people will always complain about predictability of AI. So modern AI of mobs is based on random aggro plus towards the one doing most Damage. This means in a good MMO, all the member can be attacked any given time. So all of them should have tricks or beef to make them survivable.
The four role system is not the best ofc, but is quite versatile even for mobs with exceptional AI(the ones who actually take cover or retreat a lot strategically - or those campers). It is specialized to be more damaging, while flexible enough to 'convert' itself to other roles if required.
Source-class list:
martial: fighter(defender), rogue(striker), warlord(leader), ranger(striker)
divine: cleric (leader), avenger (striker), paladin (defender), invoker (controller), runepriest (leader)
primal: druid (controller), barbarian (striker), shaman (leader), warden (defender), seeker (controller)
arcane: wizard (controller), warlock (striker), sorcerer (striker), swordmage (defender), artificier (leader), bard (leader)
shadow: vampire (striker), assassin (striker)
psionic: ardent (leader), psion (controller), monk (striker), battlemind (defender)
Each powersource provides a certain 'theme' to the classes, and how they play. You can almost denote the variations by these threads. Divine classes tend to do radiant damage, and be a mixture of melee and mystical. Arcane classes are very control heavy. Primal classes have a lot of HP, but generally lack in the armor department.
One thing to add here -
those are primary roles. Sometime class can excel at its secondary role too. It will not be best at it, but (how do I put it?) it will be sufficient at some occasions.
*nods in agreement*
I know you know, just putting it there in case someone reads it for first time and thinks that a particular class is only supposed to do one thing.
Also, ofcourse, our damage comes from spaeships located far from the reaches of your planets - and our magics need incantation like "beam me up, scotty!" So ofcourse we can put armor, be immobile and still use shiny beams to do damage[oops was that supposed to be a secret?]
:P
What is tank? As someone before me explained nicely:- Can the new rogue act as pseudo-tank? To explain more clearly, if we have 5 rogue party, can one of them act as tank while other strikers damage it? I believe that it can be done - a rogue can use "trick-tanking" like dropping a dummy and letting the shadow dummy "tank" by getting aggro, while rogue himself does dps.
These new powers will bring out of box strategies. So probably all classes will have power like this which can do "trick-tanking" or some other kind of strategy to 'tank' the monster.
I believe, with these new roles and active combat, new strategies rather than those old trinity strategies will arise. Can't wait to try it out.
Also, I would love to know your opinion and insight to 4e. Can you send me your disagreement by PM? Maybe it will help me look into 4e from a different perspective.
I like this post... b:pleased
D&D is all about overcoming challenges, and thinking about new ways to solve the "usual" problem.
This kind of thinking will really help you out while playing Neverwinter.
Cheers,
Stormshade
Can the new rogue act as pseudo-tank? To explain more clearly, if we have 5 rogue party, can one of them act as tank while other strikers damage it? I believe that it can be done - a rogue can use "trick-tanking" like dropping a dummy and letting the shadow dummy "tank" by getting aggro, while rogue himself does dps.
These new powers will bring out of box strategies. So probably all classes will have power like this which can do "trick-tanking" or some other kind of strategy to 'tank' the monster.
I believe, with these new roles and active combat, new strategies rather than those old trinity strategies will arise. Can't wait to try it out.
If 5 rogues can think outside the box and accomplish something then the other classes should be able to too or there is a problem. I certainly hope we do not have one tank mage class and 4 classes which need other roles to succeed.
so
The game's idea of a 'tank' may be different from the usual meaning in MMOs
4e is a LOT different from 3.5 rules...basically a completely different game.
There will be a lot to adjust to.
That's very encouraging.
It is :-)
Also it made me think that we can probably make a promotional video or something to show this point to others. Once the game is released, and we understand strategy, we can perhaps make a parody video of tanks in 'that other' MMO vs NW - in neverwinter tanks don't just stand and get hit like Pinata while cleric heals them ... something on those lines.
I am sure this point will pull many people who are fed up of wow(I believe there is a large player base) to try NW for once.