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SKILL vs. GEAR
bunnyfocker
Member Posts: 35
My main hope for this game : Make it about player skill and teamwork. Make it much less about "I bought the PHAT LOOTZ GUYZ!"
I found that the longevity of games increase when it's about personal skill then grinding for gear or power.
I say this because PvP will be one of the centerpieces of the game wherein the best PKer will be crowned Emperor of Neverwinter and just basically be the most biggest baddest fella on the server. If one guy continuously wins JUST because he has the most time to grind or the most RL cash to buy infinite zen then the game quickly diminishes in the eyes of other players.
Lets hope.
I found that the longevity of games increase when it's about personal skill then grinding for gear or power.
I say this because PvP will be one of the centerpieces of the game wherein the best PKer will be crowned Emperor of Neverwinter and just basically be the most biggest baddest fella on the server. If one guy continuously wins JUST because he has the most time to grind or the most RL cash to buy infinite zen then the game quickly diminishes in the eyes of other players.
Lets hope.
Post edited by bunnyfocker on
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One more thing PvP is not in this game at this time.
1. DnD is not about PVP. It's about PVE and RPG, about teamwork.
2. PVP will be released after the launch.
3. Classes in 4 ed and Neverwinter are highly specialized: controller, striker, defender and leader. These roles are balanced as a team, not against each other. A leader or controller will not deal as much damage to a single player as a striker.
Anyway, you've made already a similar topic about gear. And maybe use search tool to find some interesting discussions about PVP ;-)
Neverwinter is very PVE focused. The main reason being foundry that allows players to create more PvE content.
Devs have said that PvP would not be there at launch but it will be released later at expansion. They said that they want to do it right and integrate it into the game. Devs refused to comment on this part any more than that.
However, it seems that there will be option for players to not engage in PvP if they don't want to. Most of the players who have been here since before (mostly tabletop players) think that D&D is PvE. Though a few like integration of PvP with D&D style, even they want PvP to be non-invasive and optional.
I think the reason why the PvP isn't shipping with the release of the game and why it's so hush hush is that Cryptic knows PvP is hard to get right and it's ultra popular especially with their arcade combat. So they really really really want to hit on the mark the first time.
This is Dungeons & Dragons, for this very reason, in my opinion "character skill" or "power" should be most influenced by the character itself (e.g. level, stats, feats, and skills) and the player behind them -- not their gear (which should only play a minor role in skill/power).
I should also note that I am no longer considered an active PvPer (as I haven't *really* PvP'd since between '97 and '04 with UO, later sticking away from any places of conflict in such games like EVE where PvP is open world). I will be playing the game for the Social, Roleplaying, Lore and PvE Aspects of the game as well as because of my extreme and deep love for the Forgotten Realms. I truly hope PvP never takes a front-seat in NWO as well as hope that PvP never impacts PvE.
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The combat system is as good for PvP as for PvE. And as I as before, the class specialization into: controller, striker, defender and leader does not favor PvP. Do you actually know what these roles mean in DnD 4 ed?
I understand you like PvP very much, but face it: most ppl who comment even here are not big fans of it.
That said, D&D never was about PVP. It also never was about player skill - just like every single RPG out there. If you make it 75% skill, 25% everything else then it simply isn't an RPG anymore - it's an action game with some RPG elements. Skill in RPGs (and ofc MMORPGs) has always been and will always be little more than "can you react quickly enough?". And even in action RPGs, the only thing that changes is that they add a bit of "can you aim at the direction you wanna punch/kick/slash/burn?" It's not particularly demanding anyway.
What should always be the most important in a fight is character build (level, skills, stats, gear, abilities). Just like in MOBAs/RTSes: you can have "mad skills" but, at the end of the day, if the opponent has better units than yours and has at least some remote idea about what they're doing, 9/10 they'll mop the floor with you and your superior playing skills. Because the "skill" is in building the character, not just controlling it.
Most of the MMORPG audience is PVEers anyway - the majority never do PVP, and many of the rest just do it for the rewards. You only need to take a quick look at the servers of most major MMOs to see that. So no, the absence of PVP ain't gonna hurt anyone's commercial success.
I understand your reasoning, but when you say the "skill is being able to build your character" this really just ends up being "who's got the least amount of life so as to play a game for 6 hours a day." For us casual gamers (massive chunk of paying customers who'll gobble up zen like crazy) it's about developing play style and personal skill, like being really really good at a FPS.
I think gear/character power should definetly come into play, obviously a level 20 character will be more powerful then say a level 10 character. But, at least in PvP the amount of gear or twink'd out toons should matter less and more yor ability to coordinate your attacks and playstyles with your fellow teammates, to capture the flag and become the rulers of Neverwinter, at least until the next tourney.
That depends entirely on how the game is actually built.
If it requires you to grind 6 hours a day if you want to level at a decent pace, and has rare gear with a million upgrade levels and it breaking upon a failed uprade attempt... sure.
But in a game with a reasonable leveling curve, and a reasonable gear system, then no, it doesn't end up being like that...
The key word here is "reasonable". Whats "reasonable"? And does your definition of the word jive with mine, or with countless other people who'll be playing as well?
That paragraph does not bring anything into the discussion.
Anyway, yes - team vs team could work, but not 1vs1 as bunny suggested in the first post. We already discussed it long ago...
I actually see team -so and so- on the leaderboards rather then a single characters name.
There is no definition of reasonable. Reasonable is what each individual makes it.
I consider a leveling curve reasonable as log as I'm able to see definite progress each time I complete a major objective, as long as I never feel that my character is stagnating too long at their current power level and as long as I can get more than 2/3 of the available exp/day within a maximum of ~1.5 hours.
I consider a decent gear upgrade system one that allowes the maximisation to be achieved with just normal playing, without having to rely on luck or powerfarming/real money - though at the same time at a pace that does differentiate the ones that are really trying from the ones that just upgrade stuff as they go.
And, if anyone read the above 2 paragraphs, congratz, you read 2 paragraphs filled with completely meaningless text.
Each person has a different definition of reasonable. There is no absolute reasonable, but if the majority things of something as reasonable, then it's accepted as reasonable...
PS. Damn, I think this must have topped the chart of the most pointless posts I've ever written...
b:laugh
The OP must not have a complete understanding of the core principles of DND to even start such a troll bait thread. He/she would have been better off searching and participating in the other PVP threads but obviously has a need for excessive attention and started another useless thread where he/she ignored 2 posters saying the PVP wont be there at launch. A reasonable person would just ignore this post, but children play here too.
And you don't understand that without PvP, Cryptic is going to lose out on a mega-huge portion of the gaming community. Some people here will play this game only for PvP, some for both PvP and PvE, some for just PvE. Why are you trying to make the game only PvE, why can't you share with everyone else?
But they said already pvp would roll in 2013, ie:keep there release shedule for christmas, they want to do pvp RIGHT, so wether that making sure the core PVE is right first, balanced wise.
Im not a pvp'er but maybe they can change me into one, but im not going to argue against it. I guess that a core fundamental of D&d was partying/adventuring it makes sense to get this right 1st, and follow with the rest.
Granted, there are a great many PvPers in the world, just as there are a great many PvErs and RPers. I do believe you're exaggerating on the "mega-huge" statement however. There have been many polls around the gaming communities and many of them have found that most of their pollers would be happy to play an MMO without any PvP elements. I am one such player.
Anyway, as I said before and in other threads on this topic (search does work by the way, why people do not post in already-existent topic threads, I do not know) - as long as PvP does not impact PvE one little tiddly bit, I am fine with whatever PvP elements come. I will not be participating in PvP and will rage if I am forced into any PvP situations that have history, lore and "fr rp content" to them that one wouldn't be able to experience without PvPing. It is already bad enough to hear that at the end of each story-line there will be a 5-man "delve" that caps that story-line off. I sure do hope there are versions of these "delves" that are able to be done at least solo and less than 5 players.
I hate, absolutely hate being forced to group or PvP just to be able to experience pertinent lore and story. A great deal complained about this in LotRO and they saw the error in their ways (not soon enough for me) and opened most of their group content to soloers and others without a full group. Hopefully PWE/Cryptic will learn from Turbine's mistake before NWO comes out as they haven't in STO at this point. There are several missions I have yet to even do once in STO because they are forced grouping or forced pvp and it urks me royally. A forced-playstyle <to experience story/lore> is not my cup of tea.
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5% are hardcore PvP
5%-10% are casual PvP
85%-90% want nothing to do with PvP
I don't know if I would PvP, but I would still like that option to be there. However, as a lot of previous thread on PvP in these forums have concluded, it should be optional.
btw, andy said PvP would be more of end game kind of thing. Is it available only after cap? Also, he said regarding how to implement it, details are being worked out - if it should be restricted to arena or what?
Btw, pvp allows good RP options too. There was a game in DDO which players started - kargon ham something. It was nice. So PvP is good for optional things in RP too. Its reassuring for me if it is there - but probably I won't use it, and wouldn't want to see it out of arena like place of which I can be oblivious during everyday runs.
Here's a dirty lil secret, Cryptic is not targeting ONLY D&D fans but the full spectrum of MMO gamers which have a very significant crowd of PvPers. Cryptic intends to appeal to a very diverse crowd. This is not a D&D fans only club but a modern action oriented MMO open to all that is inspired by D&D.
If done right they can do an awesome PvP system, the potential is tremendous here between all the different kinds of factions or guilds. Especially in the Neverwinter setting where people are scrambling to gain power and come out on top.
Post those stats on the SWTOR or WoW or Rift or GW2 forums and say that's representative of all MMOs and don't be surprised with the endless ridicule, flamming, and debunking it would receive.
That is only because that small percent are way more vocal than the larger percent. If we're happy, we don't complain, while others complain about everything. I know PvPers, one is in my house right now and boy is he loud about every little thing. As well, I used to be a PvPer and a vocal one at that - probably why I am so vocal still about my RPG love. Not that this is generally a bad thing, it is just bad when PvPers try and convey that their complaints some-how out-weight everything else because of some mystical force that will destroy an RPG if it doesn't have PvP.
For years there have been polls after polls, all across the gaming communities, in which the one thing that is common in their outcomes are that the majority of pollers would be perfectly happy to play an RPG game that has no PvP elements what-so-ever.
Why PvPers continue to insist on bringing PvP to RP games blows my mind. RPers do not try and bring RPG to PvP games.. we avoid them like the plague - hence why many PvP-based games have a peak and then dwindle and those with a mix of PvP/RPG tend to see the PvP dwindle and the RPG spike, which WoW and UO are good and long examples of this.
I remember in the beginning of both UO and WoW that one could find PvP happening almost everywhere you went, even in the major cities. Now, it is once in a blue moon that anything really exciting happens out-side of warzone instances and for UO, Felucca is not that happening anymore. Do you ever wonder why Trammel took hold and continued to stick around? Surely if most of the players were PvPers, then Felucca would have remained happening, yet it did not and the Trammel rule-set and all the masses of RPGers took over the Trammel lands, leaving Felucca deserted. If PvPers were in the majority, why did this happen?
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
you used the example wow.
count the normal servers, count the PvP servers
compare
ya