greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
It would be interesting for the devs to post.
And be honest about the issues.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
And what does it bother you that someone stayed in an unclosed instance?
My suggestion is that: throw away these random queues and restore the status quo before times when this stupid attempt to force people to do what they don't want has been introduced. This is: for the first dung, skirmish or trial of the day you get a certain amount of money. Remove penalties, remove end quests in campaigns that requires the completion of dungeon at the end. This has always been wrong and so far, hasn't done anything good. Not everyone has to do everything. Not everyone is suitable for everything. Requiring from someone who started playing a month ago to go on the hardest trial in the game is idiotic.
This is a game, not a second job, and no one is going to work for anyone else. Maybe the devs would finally get that. Although I highly doubt it.
I realize it's an old thread but my question to all you people suggesting something other than increasing the leaver penalty is simple.
I'm not a dev. I can suggest till I'm blue in the face and as has already been pointed out, never see a response.
So why the hell should I try to find better solutions to something I'm not getting paid to solve?
That's a rhetorical question. I do not need an answer from any of you.
If the DEVs feel like fixing these problems in order to, oh, IDK, save their jobs, they can address it.
I certainly don't post things for random people to shoot them down.
You want my 26 years of IT expertise or my 40 years of D&D expertise?
Don't think that the quoted post above was directed at the OP...
Posting a thread on the forums makes it available for users to post/respond. Forum topics are not a personal portal to engage with the devs and no one else, that's what private messages are for...
People can and will respond to topics, especially suggestion topics and especially if someone can see potential issues within and are making the effort to be constructive.
For example, upping the leaver penalty won't simply discourage players from leaving a queue, it will arguably encourage them to: - just stand at the entrance/campfire. - die on purpose/defeat themselves. - teleport out of the instance and go do something else. - "disconnect".
in hopes that they will be vote kicked thus circumventing the leaver penalty entirely (no matter how long it is).
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Sometimes I have been given the leaver penalty when the game disconnects while loading in the dungeon or trial. I log back in again (sometimes after two timeouts), I'm not in the dungeon or queue, there is a "return to instance" button that disappears before I can click it, and then I can't queue again because I've been given the penalty.
So my appeal would be, if the penalty gets increased then make sure the system works properly!
you guys need to up the leaver penalty for leaving a RAQ / RTQ / etc. to like three hours or a day or two. people are jumping into Demogorgon and immediately leaving.
Why do players leave a dungeon like Demogorgon, Gzemnid or Demonweb Pit? The answer is quite simple: they have no chance to successfully complete this dungeon. Now, you might wonder why they go to this dungeon in the first place. To get diamonds and because they have to! Some time ago, the developers had the absurd idea of requiring seals from dungeons for the boon points as well. I think this is completely wrong. It forces players who barely meet the dungeon requirements into the dungeons.
Now there are several options:
1. they give up the boon points. 2. they keep trying to do Demogorgon, Demonweb Pit or Gzemind when they are "forced" to get there. 3. they leave the group and hope for another dungeon next time.
Cryptic's developers have made these decisions that make the behavior shown above possible. Punishing players now for not following the will of these developers is the wrong way to go. Players should again be able to decide which dungeons they go to. Requiring seals from dungeons for boon points was not a good idea.
> @mintmark said: > Sometimes I have been given the leaver penalty when the game disconnects while loading in the dungeon or trial. I log back in again (sometimes after two timeouts), I'm not in the dungeon or queue, there is a "return to instance" button that disappears before I can click it, and then I can't queue again because I've been given the penalty. > > So my appeal would be, if the penalty gets increased then make sure the system works properly!
Sometimes I have been given the leaver penalty when the game disconnects while loading in the dungeon or trial. I log back in again (sometimes after two timeouts), I'm not in the dungeon or queue, there is a "return to instance" button that disappears before I can click it, and then I can't queue again because I've been given the penalty.
The thing about "disconnects" is that the game can't really determine legitimate ones from intentional ones therefore they are treated the same unfortunately.
Some time ago, the developers had the absurd idea of requiring seals from dungeons for the boon points as well. I think this is completely wrong. It forces players who barely meet the dungeon requirements into the dungeons.
Punishing players now for not following the will of these developers is the wrong way to go. Players should again be able to decide which dungeons they go to. Requiring seals from dungeons for boon points was not a good idea.
Will start off by stating that RQ's are personally not agreed with because it is seemingly an intentional move by Cryptic to "force" higher ilvl players to carry lower ilvl players through content. An at ilvl group would arguably not be able to consistently complete queued content. Cryptic probably looked at the data and saw that more players queue solo so implementing RQ's for bonus rewards should work in their eyes.
Players can queue for specific content though... The end chests for any dungeon in the ADQ/RTQ lists are the same whether it is queued specifically or randomly, they still contain seals, the player simply won't get the bonus rewards. This has been made less viable with Mods 24-26 because the primary seal is used for all three. Previously players could simply wait for the next mod, farm seals without the weekly cap and get the boons from the previous mod, now it seems that it will take 3 mods before that can happen, while a shiny campaign completion tokens are "conveniently" available in the ZEN market... shame.
The flip side of RQ's are players that intentionally queue random then hold the rest of the group hostage because they don't want to take the leaver penalty, that part is personally not agreed with. If a player queues random then doesn't even attempt the content, that is a problem within itself.
Personally would like to see the return of running queued content solo, similar to the dungeons in the leveling zones. It could also benefit non "1 tank 1 healer 3 dps groups". Can't find a tank(s)/healer(s)? Dps can form a group of 2-5 of whatever mix and have content they can try.
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
You guys need to up the leaver penalty for leaving a RAQ / RTQ / etc. to like three hours or a day or two. people are jumping into Demogorgon and immediately leaving.
This is not a good idea, this isn't going to HELP Random Queue wait times at all. Still the concept of doing something is a good idea, so I've suggested an idea.
Random queues have all kinds of problems we've gone from 'we've made dungeons random to make them pop more quickly' to having a 10-20+ wait for dungeons to pop. One thing that would help is when a person joins a random queue no option to respond or decline...
Also not wise, since the problem is largely that people sometimes have been waiting for 10, 15, 20, 25 minutes or more; so they've simply had to get up for a 30 seconds to grab a glass of water, coffee, tea or something else. As a result if they aren't right next to the computer, may not hear the DING announcing the Queue has popped.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Still I'd think maybe this is something they could consider as a preferred option:
Reduce Raw Astral Diamond Bonus (25%) in Random Queues if Q group is greater than 60% premade if Dungeon or Trial. ╘ Then your rewarded for picking up at least 2 members of your team from PUG in Dungeons/Skirms, or 4 in Trials! ╘ If you PUG just 20% maybe it's reduced to 12.5% reduction from Maximum RAD bonus?
That offers a bit more randomness, it also encourages players be patient; try and play with others more! It also helps encourage new players to learn mechanics a bit more as experienced players explain it a bit to new players. The goal of Randoms should be to get more new Players to learn, stay, and grow in game. Not simply fully populate a pre-made with the maximum # of players, where they know it's going to be extremely fast. This gives a reward to those who allow others to JOIN IN THE ADVENTURE!
Encouraging more to only fill 60% of the maximum Premade requirements, the reward is the biggest payout; so this is likely the most wise solution. It won't prevent others from running full premade groups, just the Raw Astral Diamond bonus will be slightly reduced.
No I didn't try to appeal the penalty, I did something else for half an hour. Obviously it would be a bigger deal if it was a bigger penalty.
I realise people can disconnect intentionally, but after my disconnections I did log in again and try to get back into the instance... there just wasn't a way (the button disappeared). They can keep that button there and then tell the difference (between a leaver and an unlucky network) based on whether you click it when you log back in.
I like strathkin's idea of different rewards depending on how "puggy" your party is. If the idea of the rewards is to keep the random queue's moving, then turning up with a full group and by-passing the queue doesn't help with that.
Reduce Raw Astral Diamond Bonus (25%) in Random Queues if Q group is greater than 60% premade if Dungeon or Trial. ╘ Then your rewarded for picking up at least 2 members of your team from PUG in Dungeons/Skirms, or 4 in Trials! ╘ If you PUG just 20% maybe it's reduced to 12.5% reduction from Maximum RAD bonus?
That offers a bit more randomness, it also encourages players be patient; try and play with others more! It also helps encourage new players to learn mechanics a bit more as experienced players explain it a bit to new players. The goal of Randoms should be to get more new Players to learn, stay, and grow in game. Not simply fully populate a pre-made with the maximum # of players, where they know it's going to be extremely fast. This gives a reward to those who allow others to JOIN IN THE ADVENTURE!
This is not a good idea, this isn't going to HELP Random Queue wait times at all.
You said it yourself...
The problem with queue times arguably is that there are not enough T’s/H’s (tanks/healers) in the player pool, this is evidenced by how fast a queue pops when you have a tank/healer in the group...
Full premade groups are not the problem with queue times. A full group queuing is not even part of the equation. Each group formed that starts full or partial and filled by the system essentially takes a tank(s) and healer(s) out of the player pool regardless.
Penalizing players for queuing with more than 3 or 6 will not fix the lack of T’s/H’s, it is simply “robbing Peter to pay Paul”. In other words, bringing in 2 or 4 random players via the system still leaves 2 or 4 players elsewhere, out… In other, other words, 3 or 6 dps queuing together will not simply make more T’s/H’s appear…
Simple solution, reward T’s/H’s for completing multiple RQ’s... this will put them back into the player pool instead of them getting their daily bonus and being done with RQ’s…
With this suggestion, after a queue is completed the T’s/H’s will be prompted to be put back into the queue:
- If they accept they will be given a “T3” bonus reward upon the second completion and then be prompted again, if they accept for a third, then they will receive a “T2” bonus reward upon the third completion (3 RQ’s in a row). - If they deny and queue again later, they will receive a “T2” bonus reward upon the second completion and if they queue again later for a third, they will receive a “T1” bonus reward (3 RQ’s total, none in a row). - If they deny and queue again later they will receive a “T2” bonus reward upon the second completion though if they queue again immediately after the second, they will receive another “T2” bonus reward (3 RQ’s total, at least 2 in a row). They could also queue twice in a row and later for a third to get a second “T2” bonus rewards.
Plausible Results - T’s/H’s will be able to get additional bonus rewards for up to two additional RQ’s. - More groups will have T’s/H’s available to fill them. - No one is penalized.
The suggestion may even encourage others to start/develop a tank/healer which will further help increase the number of available support classes for queues. Offer a T/H a reward in Protector's Enclave and see how fast you get a response... If they respond, ask them had they already ran that specific queue type already after the group finishes and see what they say...
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
The problem with queue times arguably is that there are not enough T’s/H’s (tanks/healers) in the player pool, this is evidenced by how fast a queue pops when you have a tank/healer in the group...
Well granted I do agree with you, still the real problem is that too many people always form fully formed Pre-Made Groups. Regardless if they are from their alliance, friends, or what have you. I do believe the problem got slightly worse after Dragonslayer, as we had yet another 1 or 2 now separate Queue's to find Tanks & Healers for.
Still I think if Pre-made's are encouraged to pickup 1-2 or 2 & 4 (20% & 40%) of players from PUG's it would help for sure! That's why even after I find a tank &/or healer, I try to always leave 1-2 spots available, or other times I find at least 1 and then still pickup 1-2 from outside Pick-Up Group!
Note: I do often make complete premades, cause I mostly don't like waiting 20, 25+ minutes for a queue to spawn. Often I can find friends or members of the alliance too, yet generally lately I've tried always leaving room for at least 1-2 to be picked up, from those likely waiting in line for something to pop.
If only more players also left room for 1-2 players in a PUG to be added to their party.
remove 15min to kick offline consider players in others instances offline and apply penalty to them. of course if really offline or in other instance." problem who really offline or crash" possible solution apply low penalty 10-15 min. people usuali whait rhe problem is when offline in the beginning
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,403Arc User
edited October 2023
This penalty issue is going in a circle.
If the penalty is big, people will just stay, does nothing and wait for people to kick. Leaver waits and the potential kickers are upset.
If the kick time is available in short time, it can lead to abuse but let set that aside for now. If the kick time is available in short time, it does not help the kicker much who wants to kick the leaver even faster and the leaver can avoid the penalty. More people will wait for being kicked to avoid the penalty. So, what is purpose of the penalty again?
If going to another instance will get penalty automatically, it can 'help' but the leaver will just stay inside and does nothing. Whatever effort dev will spend to change, any leaver can find an easy way to avoid that.
I would say just get rid of the penalty. There is no point (for those who stay) to keep a player who does not want to play for even a short time. Many can avoid the penalty and irritate other players in the process.
I would say the root of these problems is one thing: RQ. The nature of RQ makes this mess.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
still I think the real problem is that too many people always form fully formed Pre-Made Groups.
Every premade group of 5, which already would include a tank and healer (or group of 10, 2 tanks and 2 healers). To not get penalized by your suggestion they would need to make two separate groups and need another tank and healer... Instead of the players that simply queue solo (or with less than 5) taking time to be put into a group via the system, the players that do not want to be penalized for having a full premade group would also be taking time to be put into a group by the system... how does essentially doubling (or more) the number of groups that need to be filled help lower queue times? Easy answer, it doesn't. It would just makes things more cumbersome, and for those that still run full premade groups, less rewarding.
Had you simply suggested additionally rewarding groups that had 3 or less, then ok, no one gets bonked if they don't want to queue that way so even if the state of the queue times does not decrease considerably, nothing else changed, that's a win-draw. Though your suggestion is the opposite. If players don't want to queue with 3 or less they would receive less reward, and if the state of the queue times does not decrease considerably, nothing else changed of than players receiving less rewards, that's a lose-lose. This type of system change would be overbearing on the player base with little considerable benefit (if any).
You do tend to make suggestions that negatively affect those that do not play like you though...
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I would say just get rid of the penalty. There is no point (for those who stay) to keep a player who does not want to play for even a short time. Many can avoid the penalty and irritate other players in the process.
I would say the root of these problems is one thing: RQ. The nature of RQ makes this mess.
True stuff.
Cryptic in their infinite wisdom set this fire ablaze. The current system is VERY lax and easy to circumvent, in that regard the leaver penalty serves no real purpose to the point where keeping it just makes things harder for those willfully wanting to run the content. Though removing the penalty will also bring things back to where the devs originally wanted to move away from, players seeking the easiest content for rewards LoL.
-joke- Maybe players could be able to freely leave and immediately queue again though receive a stacking debuff each time they leave a RQ that reduces the AD bonus for them and can be reduced by completing queues?... LOL -/joke-
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Had you simply suggested additionally rewarding groups that had 3 or less, then ok, no one gets bonked if they don't want to queue that way so even if the state of the queue times does not decrease considerably, nothing else changed, that's a win-draw. Though your suggestion is the opposite.
...
You do tend to make suggestions that negatively affect those that do not play like you though...
Well I think your just not willing to compromise at all, plain and simple. I wouldn't like a reduction either, yet I prefer that Random Queue also had a faster turn-around time, plain and simple because that keeps the game far more healthy! New players aren't going to play, invest, or even buy ZEN for character's, if they have to wait 20, 25, 30, 35+ minutes just for a Queue to spawn. It's often why you wait at least for 1 person at least 20-40 seconds at least, likely because they had been waiting 20, 25+ minutes before it finally pops the queue.
I do often run complete premades, and still the 12.5% or 25% RAD reduction wouldn't bother me; and it wouldn't be hard to include at least 1, or 2 from a Pickup Group in almost all runs I do. Or do you want the fastest run with the maximum rewards, yet not even willing to invite 1-2 outsiders into your pre-made; it's well very one sided, and those runs also take considerably less time, so why should the reward be the same?
*wonderful*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @trinity706#8838 --So instead what about this, given that you aren't willing to compromise, like I am:
Maybe they could borrow from Dungeon Delvers Rewards that offers 2x premium reward chance; that only happens once every 3 months, and only lasts a week. This isn't changing that just borrowing from it.
If you don't have a complete premade team: Maybe offer +10% chance of increased premium drops for a team that have at least 1/2 (20%) member of a Pick-up Group; or a 20% chance for 2/4 (40%) members of a Pick-up Group; maybe extended to 25% if two of those members come from two different categories: tank, healer, or dps? Those % are just examples however..
I'm sure Cryptic could find a similar position to offer more carrot, and only a draw to help Pick-up Groups! Though I still believe they should reduce Raw-Astral Diamond bonus on all Random Queues by 12.5% if you don't include 1 member from a Pick-up group in your party. It's not significant yet reminds the Queue Group Leader to include at least 1 outsider to be included as part of the team, to help Random Queue with not full teams to spawn faster!
That's zero sacrifice to make now, & offers a lot more carrot to include 1/2 (20%), or 2/4 (40%) people from a Pick-up Group.
Completely removed any downside, now just an upside to including at least a few from outside your Pre-made.
Personally willing to think that a suggestion to encourage players to forego their social network to maintain RAD rewards from RQ’s, increase their chances of getting a player that will inconvenience the group if they get content they don’t like, still not make support classes more available to decrease queue times overall, for a “chance” at an additional reward is a good idea? Absolutely not.
Players pre Mod 12b did not reach a compromise with the devs, they were compromised BY the devs when RQ’s were introduced. Again in Mod 14 with the 100k daily RAD account refining cap. Again in Mod 15 when salvage was removed from the game. Now you want players to be compromised yet again because some want to play by running full premade groups to skip the queue system and negative players while other players for whatever reason choose to queue solo/without a support class causing wait them around for the queue to pop? No thanks.
Ask a sizeable sample of players would they rather run with a premade group or sit waiting for a queue to pop, chances are the majority of them would opt to run a premade group.
Then ask players do they think that rewarding support classes for running multiple queues or penalizing players for queuing with more than 60% premade will reduce queue times overall…
In general a tank/healer can serve 9 players daily for bonus RAD (3 in a RDQ, 3 in a RAQ and 3 in their group in a RTQ). Granting support classes additional rewards up to twice a day for running additional RQ's increases that number from 9 to 27 which will also have the potential to reduce queue times because currently support classes have little to no incentive to run additional queues after the daily bonus is obtained, by rewarding them, they would... Your suggestion would not even come close to doing that because it does not increase the potential of more support classes being available to fill queues...
RQ’s were introduced to reward players for completing random content instead of simply opting for the easiest content as they did before, so players formed premade groups to skip the queue, run with their friends, etc., help prevent getting grouped with players that want to be vote kicked because of content they don’t like and to increase efficiency thus lowering completion time. The suggestion to penalize players that want to run with 5-10 friends, guild mates, alliance members, players from PE, etc. to avoid/reduce the negative aspects of the RQ system is overbearing and thinking that it will somehow decrease queue times overall without increasing the availability of support classes is unrealistic. The lack of support classes are the reason the queues take so long, nothing more, nothing less.
Taking it a step further, if you think the majority of players will simply queue with 3/6 player or less simply to avoid reduced RAD rewards, chances are you are quite mistaken. In response some players may even opt to run RQ’s less in order to pursue other activities that will net them AD (which will reduce the player pool). For those who choose to queue with more than 3/6, a skirmish or two added to their routine would essentially bring them back to where they would have been as far as RAD rewards AND the overall queue times will still be the way they are because more support classes are still not being made available.
The basis of your suggestion can essentially be sidestepped by of all things, skirmishes, which take little time to complete and do not have group composition requirements. A player could solo queue multiple skirmishes in the time it would take to start and complete a RDQ or ADQ, and potentially get more RAD in the process...
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“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Well I tried, and now only suggesting a carrot, though I previously suggested a small reduction on Raw Astral Diamond Rewards; now I've completely removed that! Since you asked had I done this, then you'd not mind; how easy is that.. Still the question is will anyone at Cryptic read this and even attempt it?
Got to realize (above) I'm thinking up idea's (some I like) while others I might not; you've got to explore both! Only then thru discussion, and debate will you likely find a solution that might work. I do know however, that the biggest challenge is that most (+75%) now form full pre-mades which takes tanks, and healers (mostly) out of the pick-up queue. There are still a lot of people who queue in much smaller groups of 1, or 2, and it's important to keep all Queue's popping; not just those who use FULL Pre-made teams.
Had you simply suggested additionally rewarding groups that had 3 or less, then ok, no one gets bonked if they don't want to queue that way so even if the state of the queue times does not decrease considerably, nothing else changed, that's a win-draw. *Okay I'll revised it to exactly that then*
...
You do tend to make suggestions that negatively affect those that do not play like you though...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- @trinity706#8838 --So instead what about this, given that you aren't willing to compromise, like I am:
Maybe they could borrow from Dungeon Delvers Rewards that offers 2x premium reward chance; that only happens once every 3 months, and only lasts a week. This isn't changing that just borrowing from it.
If you don't have a complete premade team: Maybe offer +10% chance of increased premium drops for a team that have at least 1/2 (20%) member of a Pick-up Group; or a 20% chance for 2/4 (40%) members of a Pick-up Group; maybe extended to 25% if two of those members come from two different categories: tank, healer, or dps? Those % are just examples however..
That's zero sacrifice to make now, & offers a lot more carrot to include 1/2 (20%), or 2/4 (40%) people from a Pick-up Group.
This now only encourages people a bit more often, to not forming a fully pre-made group with added incentives; if only Cryptic considered something like this however...
For a Dungeon perhaps that represents 20% or 40% of the team, maybe it's similar for Trials so 1 or 2, would be changed to 3 or 4. Still this is a choice of slightly higher rewards, it also doesn't remove any rewards if you don't. It also shouldn't drastically impact Dungeon Delvers Rewards, available only 1 week every 3 months; as a 25% improvement is only 1/4th increment not 2x which is far higher. Yet it likely would reduce Queue times across the board, sadly the question is do they have motivation to make this or a similar change.
There is another, but perhaps unpopular for the developers, solution to the current system. But first let me describe the problem of leaving from my point of view. Personally, I don't like dungeons. For me they are a waste of time, sometimes boring or too hard. Even the so-called "normal" versions of Gzemnid or the Demon Web Pit. I fail most of the time. This is often due to the random groups as well.
So why do I go there at all? Because I need AD! So the easiest way to not "force" people like me into those dungeons is to allow us to get AD in other ways.
How? The answer is simple: repeatable (guild!) quests that provide both enough AD and material for guild expansion. Repeatable mini-solo dungeons. For example, you removed the old Sharandar mini-dungeon. Bring it back! Make it repeatable! Increase the amount of AD obtainable there. This works with other mini-dungeons as well. Personally, I will then never go back to any of the normal dungeons, leaving them to those who only have their eyes on the damage ranking.
Problem solved.
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,403Arc User
There is another, but perhaps unpopular for the developers, solution to the current system. But first let me describe the problem of leaving from my point of view. Personally, I don't like dungeons. For me they are a waste of time, sometimes boring or too hard. Even the so-called "normal" versions of Gzemnid or the Demon Web Pit. I fail most of the time. This is often due to the random groups as well.
So why do I go there at all? Because I need AD! So the easiest way to not "force" people like me into those dungeons is to allow us to get AD in other ways.
How? The answer is simple: repeatable (guild!) quests that provide both enough AD and material for guild expansion. Repeatable mini-solo dungeons. For example, you removed the old Sharandar mini-dungeon. Bring it back! Make it repeatable! Increase the amount of AD obtainable there. This works with other mini-dungeons as well. Personally, I will then never go back to any of the normal dungeons, leaving them to those who only have their eyes on the damage ranking.
Problem solved.
Well, there has been other ways of earning AD and rAD. It is up to you to figure out because when it got "popular", it will be nerf'ed or removed as that happened again and again in the past and I learned my lessons for my big mouth. e.g. XP was a big rAD maker for me. Then, they nerf'ed it. Then, they removed it.
I have objected RQ before RQ was introduced. I refused to do RQ since but I have yielded not too long again because I need to do some Random Skirmish (the minimum) to complete the battle passes within its time limit. Yet, although I have refused to do RQ, I am not short of rAD. Right now, I have about 40 days of rAD waiting to be refined (and I do not really do RQ). So, there are ways.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
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unknowndramaMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 115Arc User
Best choice will be to bring back the option to play what ever you want for your daily RAD ..no more randoms just like it use to be daily dungeon ,skirmish ,trial of choice any way there is not much randomness in that "random que" i think they put in those randoms the most annoying boring dungeons like MSP ,CR and for skirmishes gambit ,todg and pom which makes me ALT F4 each time i see them i F4K1N6 H3T3 them!!!!
Tbh Just update the loot tables and make randoms more rewarding.
Just tweak up the rewards and people are less likely to leave, more likely to stay and complete whatever it is.
They can't do that. It might improve the players' opinion of them.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
Got to realize (above) I'm thinking up idea's (some I like) while others I might not; you've got to explore both! Only then thru discussion, and debate will you likely find a solution that might work. I do know however, that the biggest challenge is that most (+75%) now form full pre-mades which takes tanks, and healers (mostly) out of the pick-up queue. There are still a lot of people who queue in much smaller groups of 1, or 2, and it's important to keep all Queue's popping; not just those who use FULL Pre-made teams.
Yet it likely would reduce Queue times across the board, sadly the question is do they have motivation to make this or a similar change.
Exploring ideas, challenging, debating, being constructive, etc. are all key components of shaping ideas and suggestions to a game, that part is definitely agreed with.
There are a number of suggestions/ideas that are not personally liked or agreed with here on the forums though if they are not perceived to negatively affect the player base while also not solving a problem, they tend to not be responded to though if they are perceived to, then responses may be on the horizon. Have various responses to a number of topics, just haven't posted them yet.
Encouraging players with rewards not to run full premade groups is more acceptable overall than punishing those that do. Personally don't see it being a favored route to take nor convinced that it will shorten queue times overall mainly because it does not solve the problem of a lack of support classes which is at the core of longer wait times. Simply stating that the suggestion will solve the queue time problem is not sufficient, it must be shown, so if an examples(s) of how it will supposedly solve that problem can be provided, it would help, especially for consideration by Cryptic.
It is not the responsibility of those that want to run full premades to try and make sure those who have the capacity and ability to also run premades themselves, though choose not to, have a shorter queue wait time. Cryptic introduced RQ's, and a number of players opted for an efficient route to rewards which was premades. Those that don't run premades opt to wait in the queues for however long, that is their choice though making that choice AND also complaining about wait times is kind of ridiculous when you have the means to prevent it.
The leaver penalty is an inconvenience to players so often enough, they ask to be kicked and or hold the group hostage until they are, or someone else leaves, freeing them from the penalty. The whole while it takes time which is being spent not running the content (not getting closer to rewards), or running said content minus the person(s) not participating which can make it more difficult and at some point(s) the group must all be in a marked area to proceed anyway.
Reducing queue times would probably not be in the best interest of Cryptic, same with the leaver penalty. Why would they want to help players generate AD?... What benefit would they get?...
How? The answer is simple: repeatable (guild!) quests that provide both enough AD and material for guild expansion. Repeatable mini-solo dungeons. For example, you removed the old Sharandar mini-dungeon. Bring it back! Make it repeatable! Increase the amount of AD obtainable there. This works with other mini-dungeons as well. Personally, I will then never go back to any of the normal dungeons, leaving them to those who only have their eyes on the damage ranking.
Problem solved.
Guild upgrades costs are a revenue stream for Cryptic (shards of power specifically). Now that are a lot more max/high level guilds, upgrading has become more difficult being that a number of players would opt to join a max rank guild than help build a lower one.
Over the years they have repeatedly reduced the AD generation potential and eventually capped it daily, don't see them making changes to it if they are not benefiting from it (financially).
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I've only just skimmed through this thread (half asleep and also have to go and do stuff and don't have time to read every word) but I just wanted to say before I leave that if anyone is suggesting tinkering with the kick function they need to go back first and review the reason the kick-delay was created in the first place, which was people kicking party members unfairly etc. Lots of times things are the way they are to prevent trolling and such. I'm not stating I'm in favor of one thing or another, just that if you are going to suggest a change to the kick functions in pug groups, you get up to speed on how it used to be and why they made it the way it is now, because you could just re-create the old problems of abuse again.
Apparently pointing-out the bleeding obvious is a 'personal attack'.
How? The answer is simple: repeatable (guild!) quests that provide both enough AD and material for guild expansion. Repeatable mini-solo dungeons. For example, you removed the old Sharandar mini-dungeon. Bring it back! Make it repeatable! Increase the amount of AD obtainable there. This works with other mini-dungeons as well. Personally, I will then never go back to any of the normal dungeons, leaving them to those who only have their eyes on the damage ranking.
Problem solved.
There are quite a few quests (admittedly, they are usually weekly quests) to get AD. There are ways to spend campaign currency or guild marks to get AD. Master Expeditions in Undermountain can get you AD.
Tbh Just update the loot tables and make randoms more rewarding.
Just tweak up the rewards and people are less likely to leave, more likely to stay and complete whatever it is.
I believe one of the main reasons people are leaving is because they do not think they will succeed. That is why it is more likely to happen in some dungeons, trials, or skirmishes, than in others. Increasing the reward won't get people to stay, since they see it as they will get no reward.
Tbh Just update the loot tables and make randoms more rewarding.
Just tweak up the rewards and people are less likely to leave, more likely to stay and complete whatever it is.
I believe one of the main reasons people are leaving is because they do not think they will succeed. That is why it is more likely to happen in some dungeons, trials, or skirmishes, than in others. Increasing the reward won't get people to stay, since they see it as they will get no reward.
Thats only really relevant to certain content.
Most Random Skirmishes [apart from the occasional Illusionist Gambit, Merchants Folly or Many Coins Bank] are very easy to complete - but some ToDG and PoM are just so long people quit. If I get MF or MCB I quit immediately and go read a book.
Same with most random Dungeons, they are really pretty easy to complete.
Comments
And be honest about the issues.
I'm not a dev. I can suggest till I'm blue in the face and as has already been pointed out, never see a response.
So why the hell should I try to find better solutions to something I'm not getting paid to solve?
That's a rhetorical question. I do not need an answer from any of you.
If the DEVs feel like fixing these problems in order to, oh, IDK, save their jobs, they can address it.
I certainly don't post things for random people to shoot them down.
You want my 26 years of IT expertise or my 40 years of D&D expertise?
Pay me.
Posting a thread on the forums makes it available for users to post/respond. Forum topics are not a personal portal to engage with the devs and no one else, that's what private messages are for...
People can and will respond to topics, especially suggestion topics and especially if someone can see potential issues within and are making the effort to be constructive.
For example, upping the leaver penalty won't simply discourage players from leaving a queue, it will arguably encourage them to:
- just stand at the entrance/campfire.
- die on purpose/defeat themselves.
- teleport out of the instance and go do something else.
- "disconnect".
in hopes that they will be vote kicked thus circumventing the leaver penalty entirely (no matter how long it is).
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
So my appeal would be, if the penalty gets increased then make sure the system works properly!
Now there are several options:
1. they give up the boon points.
2. they keep trying to do Demogorgon, Demonweb Pit or Gzemind when they are "forced" to get there.
3. they leave the group and hope for another dungeon next time.
Cryptic's developers have made these decisions that make the behavior shown above possible. Punishing players now for not following the will of these developers is the wrong way to go. Players should again be able to decide which dungeons they go to. Requiring seals from dungeons for boon points was not a good idea.
> Sometimes I have been given the leaver penalty when the game disconnects while loading in the dungeon or trial. I log back in again (sometimes after two timeouts), I'm not in the dungeon or queue, there is a "return to instance" button that disappears before I can click it, and then I can't queue again because I've been given the penalty.
>
> So my appeal would be, if the penalty gets increased then make sure the system works properly!
Did you try to appeal the penalty?
Players can queue for specific content though... The end chests for any dungeon in the ADQ/RTQ lists are the same whether it is queued specifically or randomly, they still contain seals, the player simply won't get the bonus rewards. This has been made less viable with Mods 24-26 because the primary seal is used for all three. Previously players could simply wait for the next mod, farm seals without the weekly cap and get the boons from the previous mod, now it seems that it will take 3 mods before that can happen, while a shiny campaign completion tokens are "conveniently" available in the ZEN market... shame.
The flip side of RQ's are players that intentionally queue random then hold the rest of the group hostage because they don't want to take the leaver penalty, that part is personally not agreed with. If a player queues random then doesn't even attempt the content, that is a problem within itself.
Personally would like to see the return of running queued content solo, similar to the dungeons in the leveling zones. It could also benefit non "1 tank 1 healer 3 dps groups". Can't find a tank(s)/healer(s)? Dps can form a group of 2-5 of whatever mix and have content they can try.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
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Still I'd think maybe this is something they could consider as a preferred option:
Reduce Raw Astral Diamond Bonus (25%) in Random Queues if Q group is greater than 60% premade if Dungeon or Trial.
╘ Then your rewarded for picking up at least 2 members of your team from PUG in Dungeons/Skirms, or 4 in Trials!
╘ If you PUG just 20% maybe it's reduced to 12.5% reduction from Maximum RAD bonus?
That offers a bit more randomness, it also encourages players be patient; try and play with others more! It also helps encourage new players to learn mechanics a bit more as experienced players explain it a bit to new players. The goal of Randoms should be to get more new Players to learn, stay, and grow in game. Not simply fully populate a pre-made with the maximum # of players, where they know it's going to be extremely fast. This gives a reward to those who allow others to JOIN IN THE ADVENTURE!
Encouraging more to only fill 60% of the maximum Premade requirements, the reward is the biggest payout; so this is likely the most wise solution. It won't prevent others from running full premade groups, just the Raw Astral Diamond bonus will be slightly reduced.
The problem with queue times arguably is that there are not enough T’s/H’s (tanks/healers) in the player pool, this is evidenced by how fast a queue pops when you have a tank/healer in the group...
Full premade groups are not the problem with queue times. A full group queuing is not even part of the equation. Each group formed that starts full or partial and filled by the system essentially takes a tank(s) and healer(s) out of the player pool regardless.
Penalizing players for queuing with more than 3 or 6 will not fix the lack of T’s/H’s, it is simply “robbing Peter to pay Paul”. In other words, bringing in 2 or 4 random players via the system still leaves 2 or 4 players elsewhere, out… In other, other words, 3 or 6 dps queuing together will not simply make more T’s/H’s appear…
Simple solution, reward T’s/H’s for completing multiple RQ’s... this will put them back into the player pool instead of them getting their daily bonus and being done with RQ’s…
With this suggestion, after a queue is completed the T’s/H’s will be prompted to be put back into the queue:
- If they accept they will be given a “T3” bonus reward upon the second completion and then be prompted again, if they accept for a third, then they will receive a “T2” bonus reward upon the third completion (3 RQ’s in a row).
- If they deny and queue again later, they will receive a “T2” bonus reward upon the second completion and if they queue again later for a third, they will receive a “T1” bonus reward (3 RQ’s total, none in a row).
- If they deny and queue again later they will receive a “T2” bonus reward upon the second completion though if they queue again immediately after the second, they will receive another “T2” bonus reward (3 RQ’s total, at least 2 in a row). They could also queue twice in a row and later for a third to get a second “T2” bonus rewards.
Plausible Results
- T’s/H’s will be able to get additional bonus rewards for up to two additional RQ’s.
- More groups will have T’s/H’s available to fill them.
- No one is penalized.
The suggestion may even encourage others to start/develop a tank/healer which will further help increase the number of available support classes for queues. Offer a T/H a reward in Protector's Enclave and see how fast you get a response... If they respond, ask them had they already ran that specific queue type already after the group finishes and see what they say...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Still I think if Pre-made's are encouraged to pickup 1-2 or 2 & 4 (20% & 40%) of players from PUG's it would help for sure! That's why even after I find a tank &/or healer, I try to always leave 1-2 spots available, or other times I find at least 1 and then still pickup 1-2 from outside Pick-Up Group!
Note: I do often make complete premades, cause I mostly don't like waiting 20, 25+ minutes for a queue to spawn. Often I can find friends or members of the alliance too, yet generally lately I've tried always leaving room for at least 1-2 to be picked up, from those likely waiting in line for something to pop.
If only more players also left room for 1-2 players in a PUG to be added to their party.
people usuali whait rhe problem is when offline in the beginning
If the penalty is big, people will just stay, does nothing and wait for people to kick. Leaver waits and the potential kickers are upset.
If the kick time is available in short time, it can lead to abuse but let set that aside for now. If the kick time is available in short time, it does not help the kicker much who wants to kick the leaver even faster and the leaver can avoid the penalty. More people will wait for being kicked to avoid the penalty. So, what is purpose of the penalty again?
If going to another instance will get penalty automatically, it can 'help' but the leaver will just stay inside and does nothing. Whatever effort dev will spend to change, any leaver can find an easy way to avoid that.
I would say just get rid of the penalty. There is no point (for those who stay) to keep a player who does not want to play for even a short time. Many can avoid the penalty and irritate other players in the process.
I would say the root of these problems is one thing: RQ. The nature of RQ makes this mess.
Had you simply suggested additionally rewarding groups that had 3 or less, then ok, no one gets bonked if they don't want to queue that way so even if the state of the queue times does not decrease considerably, nothing else changed, that's a win-draw. Though your suggestion is the opposite. If players don't want to queue with 3 or less they would receive less reward, and if the state of the queue times does not decrease considerably, nothing else changed of than players receiving less rewards, that's a lose-lose. This type of system change would be overbearing on the player base with little considerable benefit (if any).
You do tend to make suggestions that negatively affect those that do not play like you though...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Cryptic in their infinite wisdom set this fire ablaze. The current system is VERY lax and easy to circumvent, in that regard
the leaver penalty serves no real purpose to the point where keeping it just makes things harder for those willfully wanting to run the content. Though removing the penalty will also bring things back to where the devs originally wanted to move away from, players seeking the easiest content for rewards LoL.
-joke- Maybe players could be able to freely leave and immediately queue again though receive a stacking debuff each time they leave a RQ that reduces the AD bonus for them and can be reduced by completing queues?... LOL -/joke-
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I do often run complete premades, and still the 12.5% or 25% RAD reduction wouldn't bother me; and it wouldn't be hard to include at least 1, or 2 from a Pickup Group in almost all runs I do. Or do you want the fastest run with the maximum rewards, yet not even willing to invite 1-2 outsiders into your pre-made; it's well very one sided, and those runs also take considerably less time, so why should the reward be the same?*wonderful*
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@trinity706#8838 --So instead what about this, given that you aren't willing to compromise, like I am:
Maybe they could borrow from Dungeon Delvers Rewards that offers 2x premium reward chance; that only happens once every 3 months, and only lasts a week. This isn't changing that just borrowing from it.
If you don't have a complete premade team: Maybe offer +10% chance of increased premium drops for a team that have at least 1/2 (20%) member of a Pick-up Group; or a 20% chance for 2/4 (40%) members of a Pick-up Group; maybe extended to 25% if two of those members come from two different categories: tank, healer, or dps? Those % are just examples however..
I'm sure Cryptic could find a similar position to offer more carrot, and only a draw to help Pick-up Groups!
Though I still believe they should reduce Raw-Astral Diamond bonus on all Random Queues by 12.5% if you don't include 1 member from a Pick-up group in your party. It's not significant yet reminds the Queue Group Leader to include at least 1 outsider to be included as part of the team, to help Random Queue with not full teams to spawn faster!That's zero sacrifice to make now, & offers a lot more carrot to include 1/2 (20%), or 2/4 (40%) people from a Pick-up Group.
Completely removed any downside, now just an upside to including at least a few from outside your Pre-made.
*sigh*
Players pre Mod 12b did not reach a compromise with the devs, they were compromised BY the devs when RQ’s were introduced. Again in Mod 14 with the 100k daily RAD account refining cap. Again in Mod 15 when salvage was removed from the game. Now you want players to be compromised yet again because some want to play by running full premade groups to skip the queue system and negative players while other players for whatever reason choose to queue solo/without a support class causing wait them around for the queue to pop? No thanks.
Ask a sizeable sample of players would they rather run with a premade group or sit waiting for a queue to pop, chances are the majority of them would opt to run a premade group.
Then ask players do they think that rewarding support classes for running multiple queues or penalizing players for queuing with more than 60% premade will reduce queue times overall…
In general a tank/healer can serve 9 players daily for bonus RAD (3 in a RDQ, 3 in a RAQ and 3 in their group in a RTQ). Granting support classes additional rewards up to twice a day for running additional RQ's increases that number from 9 to 27 which will also have the potential to reduce queue times because currently support classes have little to no incentive to run additional queues after the daily bonus is obtained, by rewarding them, they would... Your suggestion would not even come close to doing that because it does not increase the potential of more support classes being available to fill queues...
RQ’s were introduced to reward players for completing random content instead of simply opting for the easiest content as they did before, so players formed premade groups to skip the queue, run with their friends, etc., help prevent getting grouped with players that want to be vote kicked because of content they don’t like and to increase efficiency thus lowering completion time. The suggestion to penalize players that want to run with 5-10 friends, guild mates, alliance members, players from PE, etc. to avoid/reduce the negative aspects of the RQ system is overbearing and thinking that it will somehow decrease queue times overall without increasing the availability of support classes is unrealistic. The lack of support classes are the reason the queues take so long, nothing more, nothing less.
Taking it a step further, if you think the majority of players will simply queue with 3/6 player or less simply to avoid reduced RAD rewards, chances are you are quite mistaken. In response some players may even opt to run RQ’s less in order to pursue other activities that will net them AD (which will reduce the player pool). For those who choose to queue with more than 3/6, a skirmish or two added to their routine would essentially bring them back to where they would have been as far as RAD rewards AND the overall queue times will still be the way they are because more support classes are still not being made available.
The basis of your suggestion can essentially be sidestepped by of all things, skirmishes, which take little time to complete and do not have group composition requirements. A player could solo queue multiple skirmishes in the time it would take to start and complete a RDQ or ADQ, and potentially get more RAD in the process...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Got to realize (above) I'm thinking up idea's (some I like) while others I might not; you've got to explore both! Only then thru discussion, and debate will you likely find a solution that might work. I do know however, that the biggest challenge is that most (+75%) now form full pre-mades which takes tanks, and healers (mostly) out of the pick-up queue. There are still a lot of people who queue in much smaller groups of 1, or 2, and it's important to keep all Queue's popping; not just those who use FULL Pre-made teams.
This now only encourages people a bit more often, to not forming a fully pre-made group with added incentives; if only Cryptic considered something like this however...
For a Dungeon perhaps that represents 20% or 40% of the team, maybe it's similar for Trials so 1 or 2, would be changed to 3 or 4. Still this is a choice of slightly higher rewards, it also doesn't remove any rewards if you don't. It also shouldn't drastically impact Dungeon Delvers Rewards, available only 1 week every 3 months; as a 25% improvement is only 1/4th increment not 2x which is far higher. Yet it likely would reduce Queue times across the board, sadly the question is do they have motivation to make this or a similar change.
*sigh*
So why do I go there at all? Because I need AD! So the easiest way to not "force" people like me into those dungeons is to allow us to get AD in other ways.
How? The answer is simple: repeatable (guild!) quests that provide both enough AD and material for guild expansion. Repeatable mini-solo dungeons. For example, you removed the old Sharandar mini-dungeon. Bring it back! Make it repeatable! Increase the amount of AD obtainable there. This works with other mini-dungeons as well. Personally, I will then never go back to any of the normal dungeons, leaving them to those who only have their eyes on the damage ranking.
Problem solved.
I have objected RQ before RQ was introduced. I refused to do RQ since but I have yielded not too long again because I need to do some Random Skirmish (the minimum) to complete the battle passes within its time limit. Yet, although I have refused to do RQ, I am not short of rAD. Right now, I have about 40 days of rAD waiting to be refined (and I do not really do RQ). So, there are ways.
Just tweak up the rewards and people are less likely to leave, more likely to stay and complete whatever it is.
There are a number of suggestions/ideas that are not personally liked or agreed with here on the forums though if they are not perceived to negatively affect the player base while also not solving a problem, they tend to not be responded to though if they are perceived to, then responses may be on the horizon. Have various responses to a number of topics, just haven't posted them yet.
Encouraging players with rewards not to run full premade groups is more acceptable overall than punishing those that do. Personally don't see it being a favored route to take nor convinced that it will shorten queue times overall mainly because it does not solve the problem of a lack of support classes which is at the core of longer wait times. Simply stating that the suggestion will solve the queue time problem is not sufficient, it must be shown, so if an examples(s) of how it will supposedly solve that problem can be provided, it would help, especially for consideration by Cryptic.
It is not the responsibility of those that want to run full premades to try and make sure those who have the capacity and ability to also run premades themselves, though choose not to, have a shorter queue wait time. Cryptic introduced RQ's, and a number of players opted for an efficient route to rewards which was premades. Those that don't run premades opt to wait in the queues for however long, that is their choice though making that choice AND also complaining about wait times is kind of ridiculous when you have the means to prevent it.
The leaver penalty is an inconvenience to players so often enough, they ask to be kicked and or hold the group hostage until they are, or someone else leaves, freeing them from the penalty. The whole while it takes time which is being spent not running the content (not getting closer to rewards), or running said content minus the person(s) not participating which can make it more difficult and at some point(s) the group must all be in a marked area to proceed anyway.
Reducing queue times would probably not be in the best interest of Cryptic, same with the leaver penalty. Why would they want to help players generate AD?... What benefit would they get?... Guild upgrades costs are a revenue stream for Cryptic (shards of power specifically). Now that are a lot more max/high level guilds, upgrading has become more difficult being that a number of players would opt to join a max rank guild than help build a lower one.
Over the years they have repeatedly reduced the AD generation potential and eventually capped it daily, don't see them making changes to it if they are not benefiting from it (financially).
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Most Random Skirmishes [apart from the occasional Illusionist Gambit, Merchants Folly or Many Coins Bank] are very easy to complete - but some ToDG and PoM are just so long people quit. If I get MF or MCB I quit immediately and go read a book.
Same with most random Dungeons, they are really pretty easy to complete.
RADQ is different, they are more problematic.
RTQ is also pretty easy to complete.