Why are people with low item number being put in really hard dungeons?

jana · April 2023

In GZemnid Reliquary I noticed someone with 30,000-a rogue barbarian whose strength was like 29 but still. There were others with 3 something and 4 something which makes no sense, since it is a part of the mod 25 which requires 55,000 to play it. And you have to win a Gzmeneid trial for a quest there and I have played that 6 0r 7 times but it never goes through. Ive stayed in it for a really long time but I have to have someone who lasts all the way through or rather a group who stays the whole time. Why do they let people who would have a hard time at Castle Never in there, it wastes their time and everyone elses?

plasticbat · April 2023

1. At the moment, Menzoberranzan does not require 55K item level to play it.
2. Gzemnid's Reqliquary is not considered by Cryptic has a really hard dungeon. Gzemnid's Reqliquary (Master) is and it requires 80K item level.

mentinmindmaker · April 2023

It is a long tradition with Cryptic to set entry IL requirement way too low. Always been like that.

rockster · April 2023

But thankfully better now than it used to be.

jana · April 2023

Is the master Gzemnids required for the quest to play in Menzoberanzan (yeah I spelled them both right I think)
like the master Spider is in the Northreaches?

fritz · April 2023

Sheesh. Given by the amount of confusion around item level and what it means in regards to potency within the random queue, I think Cryptic should consider a change. I do not believe higher item level requirements are the answer, but maybe you could introduce a system in which lower item levels scale to the queue standard but higher item levels don't. Just like it is with campaigns. And / or you could add a percentage bonus to stats that diminishes the further away a characters gets from the queue min requirements. This should offset the current issue that lower level characters tend to have worse percentage based stats although they might be capped otherwise.

And then display the scaled item level, stats and percentages when inspecting a character. Should end the discussion because queues should become a little bit easier and you cannot blame failures it on item level alone, at least not in a pug. The "real" item levels should still be displayed within a queue group.

callumf · April 2023

jana#2651 said:
In GZemnid Reliquary I noticed someone with 30,000-a rogue barbarian whose strength was like 29 but still. There were others with 3 something and 4 something which makes no sense, since it is a part of the mod 25 which requires 55,000 to play it. And you have to win a Gzmeneid trial for a quest there and I have played that 6 0r 7 times but it never goes through. Ive stayed in it for a really long time but I have to have someone who lasts all the way through or rather a group who stays the whole time. Why do they let people who would have a hard time at Castle Never in there, it wastes their time and everyone elses?

I agree mostly. Whilst Item level is not a perfect indicator of being able to play the game, its as good as we are going to get.

I run 3 toons at about 75k item level and all are capable of finishing Gzenemids reliquary [normal] if we get an average item level of around 65k. I have been in a pug that melted most of the content in that trial.

Remember in the early days CoK was almost impossible to complete, as was the new Tiamat and the new Demo...

And those were mostly due to low output DPS and/or not understanding the mechanics/tactics.

So yeah raise the min IL to something a bit more realistic +1 from me

abwabwaba · April 2023

IL is a very bad indicator when it comes to group setup. It tells nothing, what your capable of doing. I know an old player who gave out everything he had for a streamer (over 80mill AD worth of things) and is still around, started a fresh new account, and is around 56-60k with a non-wizard! dps char and beats most of these fancy endgamers with 80-85k IL in random content. When random puts us together and he is with his tank char, I know that we will finish successfully the instance, and I wont have to worry for overdoing in damage and steal aggro for a sec.
Yesterday I've met a 78k IL "tank" in LOMM who did 0 damage, mitigated 0 damaged, got healed for 0 up till Arcturia. By the boss he couldn't held aggro for 2 secs (at-willed which didnt even reach the boss). On road to the 2nd boss he was running/standing behind the group and didnt aggro mobs, waited till the party cleared them and started running behind us. When we entered to the 2nd boss, he straight ran into a corner without touching the boss. Finally the time has come for the well deserved kick for him and found another tank and finished the dungeon succesfully. I could bring up example, when random puted together with a 46k tank and he was performing perfectly (years of neverwinter gaming experience was shining).
If your experienced neverwinter player, inspecting the character will tell alot what the owner will be able to do on the journey. When I inspected the previously mentioned "tank" I already knew that we wont be able to pass by 2nd boss with him. No running aggro ring, all the latest shiny 2k legendary items from campaign shop with the miniboss rings (which having nothing to do with the class role) is already a bad sign nowadays. Its good for nothing, but for bumping up IL. These having no synergie. I can throw items on my character and hit 84-85k, but it performs worse then it is with 79k IL. And people inviting others into specific channels by inspecting the character and checking for IL.
What I wanted to share here is my personal view, that in my opinion, even if the minimum IL gets increased, its still not a guarantee that harder dungeons will be completed with higher success rate.

mentinmindmaker · April 2023

Correct build, rotations and positioning etc certainly matters. If you mess up on those, a high IL will not help you.

But it also goes the other way: If you have a low IL you will not be able to push a high dps. (Best IL is a few k below absolutely max since you should pick some items that have good effects but come with lower IL)

You need all factors to be correct in order to do really good dps.

trinity706 · June 2023

Because people aren't RQ'ing with a full pre-made group.

Personally don't agree with having to pre-group to try and help garner success, though if you don't, sometimes it's a toss up.

Dungeon content arguably still isn't "balanced". Personally would not trust a complete at ilvl group to finish content effectively.

Players can queue for high end content will low stats and absolutely zero knowledge of mechanics, it's wild. If the higher tier players began to solely queue with each other there would be quite the uproar, though would also expose the bad content balancing. It's like the devs put content balancing onto the shoulders of the high tier players...

callumf · June 2023

trinity706#8838 said:
Because people aren't RQ'ing with a full pre-made group.

Personally don't agree with having to pre-group to try and help garner success, though if you don't, sometimes it's a toss up.

Dungeon content arguably still isn't "balanced". Personally would not trust a complete at ilvl group to finish content effectively.

Players can queue for high end content will low stats and absolutely zero knowledge of mechanics, it's wild. If the higher tier players began to solely queue with each other there would be quite the uproar, though would also expose the bad content balancing. It's like the devs put content balancing onto the shoulders of the high tier players...

There are a couple of recent new chat channels where its so much easier to find a decent group to run nearly all content sucessfully. Its happening already.

Its the rule of MMOs, when pugging becomes risky, players take it on themselves to find a solution.

Example; I occasionally Pug as tank or heal [the quickest way to get in a pug] but the queue for this is taking longer and longer now.

trinity706 · June 2023

callumf#9018 said:
There are a couple of recent new chat channels where its so much easier to find a decent group to run nearly all content sucessfully. Its happening already.

That's great for PC players, console doesn't have custom chat channels though...

plasticbat · June 2023

trinity706#8838 said:

callumf#9018 said:
There are a couple of recent new chat channels where its so much easier to find a decent group to run nearly all content sucessfully. Its happening already.
That's great for PC players, console doesn't have custom chat channels though...

I find this old post from 2016 talked about setting up chat channel in XBox. No idea if it still works or not.

https://www.windowscentral.com/neverwinter-chat-guide

trinity706 · June 2023

plasticbat said:
I find this old post from 2016 talked about setting up chat channel in XBox. No idea if it still works or not.

https://www.windowscentral.com/neverwinter-chat-guide

Well customizing the default chat channels on console (PS4) is a thing, though adding additional, themed chat channels like on PC is not unfortunately.

masteryoda · June 2023

jana#2651 said:
In GZemnid Reliquary I noticed someone with 30,000-a rogue barbarian whose strength was like 29 but still. There were others with 3 something and 4 something which makes no sense, since it is a part of the mod 25 which requires 55,000 to play it. And you have to win a Gzmeneid trial for a quest there and I have played that 6 0r 7 times but it never goes through. Ive stayed in it for a really long time but I have to have someone who lasts all the way through or rather a group who stays the whole time. Why do they let people who would have a hard time at Castle Never in there, it wastes their time and everyone elses?

If you inspect all the trials in the queue list they are all 30k until you get to ToMM and all the master versions, so I don't see where your getting 55k from except that's the requirement for the campaign that it is tied to it, but that is rarely a determining factor when it comes to random queues, also common for the campaign to have a quest saying to complete the trial though that quest is pretty useless as it never rewards anything other than gold, the fact of the matter is cryptic have decided 30k is adequate to get into and complete the trials that are part of the random trial queue which is all the trials that appear in that list are set at 30k, its not good going into the random trial as 50-80k than determine that everyone at 30k must be bad when the minnnimum requirements is 30k, what you need to do is show that the trial can not be completed by an entire group of optimised 30k players who also are running buff/debuff Artifacts and mounts as that is what the devs imagine to be possible, until someone shows it is not possible there is no reason for the developers to change it, and complain that you dont think some few 30k people are capable without showing that no 30k group is possible than its just going to fall on deaf ears, yes the developers encourage carrying as this make new players see shinny things they may want to spend their money on, but the real crux here is to show that a given trial is not able to be completed under any circumstances with an entire team of minimum requirements. Than we can talk about if that trial should be there or if the minimum requirements for all trials should be increased, even though increasing the minimum requirement for all trials won't really fix anything because scaling is scalin, meaning if a group of 30k can't complete a given trial what difference would 10 or 20k increase to minimum requirements really make. Just moving the goal posts is rarely the right decision it usually the underlying mechanics and knowledge of said mechanics which really make the difference.

irene · June 2023

For RTQ it's usually a scaled content. So not just him but everyone is 30,000.
Like what every experienced player said, it's about execution.
Also the right gear build. Some unique quest items (low level gear) had like 3% - 5% rating boost in two stats.

admiralwarlord · June 2023

As @abwabwaba said, just look at the player's equipment and you know whether or not he is capable of completing content. There are characters with more than 80k that are beaten by my characters with 50k in RTQ. When I see something like this happen, I always inspect the player with the almost certainty that I will see the Blades artifact set, Bregan equipment and the rings from the new campaign. But as I am positive, I always imagine that the player is just playing to have fun and pass the time and does not have great aspirations in relation to being a player at the top of the Vanguard or even of it.

Unknown · July 2023

This content has been removed.

mornwind · July 2023

nowhere near as fun as tabletop, Dice roles are all thats required. The super low player base is proof that if it ain't fun, nobody wants to play. None of these posts have anything to do with fun, all I read is stress and unhappiness, it would be better to scrap item levels , and instead introduce old school tabletop combat, The level six rogue may not have the gear, but he rolled a 20 to hit, pick up your head next turn.

masteryoda · July 2023

mornwind said:
nowhere near as fun as tabletop, Dice roles are all thats required. The super low player base is proof that if it ain't fun, nobody wants to play. None of these posts have anything to do with fun, all I read is stress and unhappiness, it would be better to scrap item levels , and instead introduce old school tabletop combat, The level six rogue may not have the gear, but he rolled a 20 to hit, pick up your head next turn.

Your going to see more complaint than anything In forums I general, most who enjoy the game are playing the game not wasting their time in useless discussions in the forums, while most who have this problem or that problem off to the forum they go to air it out and hope to find someone who will confirm their complaints, personally I don't have a problem with the current state of the game especially no issues with item level, I don't agree with the whole dice rolling though, that's what table top d&d is for, the least amount of gamberling in an online game the better, its bad enough the lockboxes can encourage gamberling, and that is how I see anything with dice even if your not making a bet with money relying on RNG is still just as bad sadly we can't get rid of all rng in games but things like dice to determine if you can successfully kill an enemy for me is an instant joy killer and yeah also turn based combat is another yawn fest for me I may as well go play Real d&d or yigioh if I want to be waiting for people to take a turn so I can take my turn.

melotai · July 2023

I think things may have gotten better in RTQ as I still solo queue for that a lot and it is usually successful. Although my healer still gets put into a few abandoned instances before getting a real one or after a few tries I just give up and go to a DPS.

I do try to do premade groups on this but I have not the patience as I only do the plus thing once in PE and then go off and do something. Currently, doing the drider thing for my HR, TR and Paladin as I want them to have all boons as well or at the very least a few more boon points than my other alts. As the new mod comes out soon that basically means not a lot of time to do this.

Most of the premade groups I do join are usually through the Alliance chat which implies that I should probably make an effort to have a few more Alts in the active alliance.

mentinmindmaker · July 2023

irene#2829 said:
For RTQ it's usually a scaled content. So not just him but everyone is 30,000.
Like what every experienced player said, it's about execution.
Also the right gear build. Some unique quest items (low level gear) had like 3% - 5% rating boost in two stats.

That everyone has their current IL set to 30k-ish does not mean everyone is equal.

The IL number has two different effects:
* It directly is used to calculate your base damage and hp
* But it also says how developed your stats are. Higher IL means you have shifted more stats from useless to useful stats

When you are scaled your base damage and hp parts are modified, but your stats are not - and they matter a lot.
So even scaled, low ILs means that you will not perform as well as someone with higher IL - assuming correct builds for both.

In addition a low IL usually also means less game experience and less resources so more likely you have a suboptimal build.

In short: Low IL means lower performance ALSO in scaled content. And we see this again and again in queues.

For RTQ the usual situation is that you got a few experienced high dps people carrying the run, and then a backfill of fairly useless new people. The difference in dps between experienced and new can be 3:1. Same problem also for tank and heal roles.

PUG RTQ is a big gamble - if you get grouped with mostly new people you will struggle. In particular if those new people are the tanks or the healers. If you get a few experienced players in the right spots, it is a breeze.

masteryoda · July 2023

What are you talking about 'higher IL means you have shifted more stats from useless to useful?
That is not necessarily true I have seem many high IL players with terrible stats, and iv seen low IL people with good stats, it very easy to raise your IL and still have useless stats
Also if your a big enough whale you can start a new game a buy your way to high IL so high IL doesn't mean your more experienced either, my god if I had 10000 ad for all the times I met 70k+ who don't know mechanics of dungeons like spellplague and ravenloft I'd be a very rich player

mentinmindmaker · July 2023

masteryoda#6623 said:
What are you talking about 'higher IL means you have shifted more stats from useless to useful?

There are 15 Main Stats in game. (Look at your character window) These are affected by the Combined Rating and the percentage contribution depends on the difference between the cap set by total IL and the stats value, starts at 50% and you lose 1% for each 1000 points below cap.

If you look at a standard gear item(there are a few exceptions), the changes that gear item will do to your *percentages* across your main stats will sum up to 0 (Assuming no capping etc). You get a big plus in a few stats, and a small minus in a lot of stats(from increased total IL) so the net effect is shifting percentage points from some stats into the stats that you want.

Just look at a few items and do the math yourself. Most items will give a net 0 change to the sum of your percentages across the 15 main stats.

An high IL player will have better gear that shifts more points from undesired stats to the important ones. How much percentage points is shifted by an item depends on the items IL.

This is why high IL players will perform better also in scaled content.

masteryoda#6623 said:

That is not necessarily true I have seem many high IL players with terrible stats, and iv seen low IL people with good stats, it very easy to raise your IL and still have useless stats

It is true you can mess up your build by allocating stats badly. However arguing with such edge cases has no weight in general. Most players have reasonable builds. If anything low IL people are much more probable to have bad builds than high IL players since the high IL people usually have more time in game.

I am running a lot of RQs and I see a very clear correspondence between low gear and low performance. I never see low IL people anywhere near top dps. But I do occasonally see high IL people with disappointing low dps.

mintmark · July 2023

That's absolutely right. I deliberately keep my IL lower than it could be so that my stats (percentages) are better.
Basically, I try to only increase my item level when my key stats are hitting their caps.

And I almost always PUG for RTQ and RSQ. Yes the queue can take a while to pop, and yes the groups are often full of new people... but every more experienced player who queues up for a PUG will be helping to improve the situation, so I think that's worth doing.
Mostly it's fine... sometimes it takes a couple of goes, occasionally there's a day where I don't complete it (all the attempts fail).

Yesterday the group was determined to start demogorgon with seven players... and that went as expected

ncc575859 · July 2023

IL; I have never fully understood it. Maybe if people would be a tad bit more understanding when you are in RDQ , etc... that maybe some of us have never been in some of those. All I ask is that in some of those RAD, RADQ, etc.. that you be more helpful and less critical of us who might not have 50+ IL. or who have never had a chance to play those. I was in an RTQ and I have never played most of those, but were some of the others helpful or understanding .. NO... it was "well looks like we have 4 no make that 5 that have never done this" . So next time Please, when you do have a group and maybe someone needs some help.. help them instead of making them feel like they are ruining your day because they don't or have never done that particular run before. I get that from my alliance members that my IL is not up to snuff with where they are, and I sure don't need that from those who are not in my alliance. Help us .. don't yell, complain, call us stupid, etc. Some of like I said at the beginning have never fully understood the concept of IL to begin with and no matter how many times someone explains it..I will never truly get it.. And for us players that are probably older than most of you "kids" that are playing this game. We're not stupid.. we just grew up playing this game with AC not IL ... It doesn't help us when we get confused over some of the aspects of this game. It means we just need help to adjust to the new way of playing it. I apologize for not having an IL that is up there with you or anyone else.

mithmyrr · July 2023

ncc575859#9863 said:
I get that from my alliance members that my IL is not up to snuff with where they are, and I sure don't need that from those who are not in my alliance.

The most helpful advice I think you can get right now is: FIND A NEW GUILD/ALLIANCE. If the people in your alliance are not helpful and look down on you because of item level, why would you expect strangers? (Also, why would you want to be in that kind of toxic environment?) Most people want to get through the dungeon as fast as possible, not have to explain mechanics. There can even be language difficulties, as their is quite an active European player base, and even South American.

Trying to learn the mechanics of some of the boss fights for the dungeons in the RADQ is not something that can easily be learned, and will probably result in multiple wipes, until you understand the 2-4 mechanics the boss fights have, and there are 3 boss fights each dungeon.

Get on youtube, look up dungeons, there are several people over the years that have done tutorials on how to do each of them. Don't show up and expect to be taught.

ncc575859 · July 2023

I don't expect to be taught.... I expect to have a little common courtesy towards myself or anyone else. It is this type of thing that bothers me the most. I was playing this when all we had was dice and graph paper. What I was trying to get across was.. Show a little respect to us. We are old, and some times things are not easy for us to understand. And with the group we are in not understanding that it makes things a lot harder and not easier. Oh I understand that I could go on Youtube. See that is the answer to everything. You don't know how to play then go on Youtube. folks don't have time to explain the Mechanics of the new way things are played.. then go on Youtube.. I also understand that there are a lot of European and others not from where I am living. I am a patient person, but I guess I expect too much from "youngsters" who grew up with no patience at all. With everything today.. Is Hurry up and get out of my way. I don't have time for anyone... But I apologize again if I ruffled anyone's feathers. I like playing this game, and if it seems that I don't well I can not help that. I do. And the Guild I am in right now is one that I helped get into the Alliance that I am in. And the really bad thing is; to tell you the truth. It wasn't like that or I should say it wasn't always like this. But RL takes it toll on all of us.. My health and my Wife's health .. not being able to be in as much as I would have liked.. No Mythyrr.. I thank you for your suggestions... and I again apologize if I have caused anyone to be upset by anything I have written. I appreciate you taking the time to address this with me.. Thank you.

plasticbat · July 2023

ncc575859#9863 said:
I don't expect to be taught.... I expect to have a little common courtesy towards myself or anyone else. It is this type of thing that bothers me the most. I was playing this when all we had was dice and graph paper. What I was trying to get across was.. Show a little respect to us. We are old, and some times things are not easy for us to understand. And with the group we are in not understanding that it makes things a lot harder and not easier. Oh I understand that I could go on Youtube. See that is the answer to everything. You don't know how to play then go on Youtube. folks don't have time to explain the Mechanics of the new way things are played.. then go on Youtube.. I also understand that there are a lot of European and others not from where I am living. I am a patient person, but I guess I expect too much from "youngsters" who grew up with no patience at all. With everything today.. Is Hurry up and get out of my way. I don't have time for anyone... But I apologize again if I ruffled anyone's feathers. I like playing this game, and if it seems that I don't well I can not help that. I do. And the Guild I am in right now is one that I helped get into the Alliance that I am in. And the really bad thing is; to tell you the truth. It wasn't like that or I should say it wasn't always like this. But RL takes it toll on all of us.. My health and my Wife's health .. not being able to be in as much as I would have liked.. No Mythyrr.. I thank you for your suggestions... and I again apologize if I have caused anyone to be upset by anything I have written. I appreciate you taking the time to address this with me.. Thank you.

My advice is to do RQ only with "friends" and people in your guild. Don't do RQ with strangers. You can ask people be "nicer" but you cannot expect all 4 strangers will all be "nice" these days. That can happen but I would not count on it. Yes, I am old too. I hate RQ so much that I have refused to do RQ since its introduction ... until recently that makes RQ a "requirement" to finish battle pass. Hence, I just do Random skirmish.

mentinmindmaker · July 2023

ncc575859#9863 said:
I don't expect to be taught....

You SHOULD expect to be taught. I saw somewhere that the average lifetime for an mmorpg player is 3-4 months, so people are rotating through the game at a high rate. That means teaching and bringing up new people is something we all have to do all the time.

However please understand that people that do not know what do to in RTQ and RADQ is a big problem and can easily wipe the team. You need to know at least basic tactics.

Some specific advice:
* Read chat. There is nothing worse than having a new person in the group we cannot communicate with. That is actually the only thing I will votekick for: Not being able to communicate.
* Tell the group from start you are new and ask for instructions. It could get you kicked immediately(there are enough HAMSTER around) but mostly someone will take time to explain.
* Consider if you are ready for this. The entry limit for RADQ is 35k and for RTQ 30k. That is WAY too low to be useful. Maybe stay with Skirmishes and RDQ at least until you are past 50k or so. You should not both be a training problem for the team AND not contribute anything.
* Reading up on the dungeons up front is a good idea.
* See if you can find a helpful guild
* And I repeat: READ CHAT!!

I run a lot of pickup RADQ and RTQ, and the biggest problem I see is not being able to communicate. As long as we can reach new players explaining the basics is doable. A lot of people do not read chat though.

mithmyrr · July 2023

ncc575859#9863 said:
Oh I understand that I could go on Youtube. See that is the answer to everything. You don't know how to play then go on Youtube. folks don't have time to explain the Mechanics of the new way things are played.. then go on Youtube.. I also understand that there are a lot of European and others not from where I am living. I am a patient person, but I guess I expect too much from "youngsters" who grew up with no patience at all. With everything today.. Is Hurry up and get out of my way. I don't have time for anyone...

I think you don't respect other people or their time, and you try to hide your insults behind empty phrases like "I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers." If you don't want to learn on your own through YouTube, or have your guild/alliance teach you, then you are a rude and inconsiderate person, who feels entitled to other people's time.

Note also that some people are NOT GOOD AT TEACHING. The YouTube videos are usually pretty good at showing you what needs to be done. But sure, go on expecting everyone to donate their time to the person that doesn't show any respect to them.

Why are people with low item number being put in really hard dungeons?

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