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Official: Wizard fixes coming to Preview

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  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User
    edited September 2022
    I think everyone gets the need of bringing powers in line, because choices are always great. But people obviously look at the current meta, see their best build nerfed, and are concerned with the damage output of a class that is already lacking. Maybe there are other options, we'll see.

    There's also a risk that powers become too similar and generic. If you're saying AE and Ice Knife are now similar in damage output over the same period of time, where are the different use cases? Maybe if you have a lot of gear that gives +encounter damage, then you could use AE. In case you can boost daily damage, go use Ice Knife. Problem is that in the current state of the game, gear that boosts a power category only makes sense for capped players. So the difference in the dailies becomes marginal.

    I'd suggest giving powers more of a distinct opportunity cost. Like let AE be the machine gun it is, and maybe up the damage bonus it gives. But then apply a recharge and damage malus for 10 seconds after AE. That way you can go all in on artifact calls for example, or use Ice Knife for a more reliable source of damage. Ditching "you can't gain AP while AE is running" would also be required to continue to bring powers on par.

    Speaking of Ice Knife: TR Assassins have two dailies with 2000 and 2200 magnitude plus utility. So Ice Knife should have 2200 as well.
  • arran#4326 arran Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 69 Arc User
    That's one lengthy way of avoiding to explain why you're nerfing the class xD
  • mamalion1234mamalion1234 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,415 Arc User

    I think everyone gets the need of bringing powers in line, because choices are always great. But people obviously look at the current meta, see their best build nerfed, and are concerned with the damage output of a class that is already lacking. Maybe there are other options, we'll see.

    There's also a risk that powers become too similar and generic. If you're saying AE and Ice Knife are now similar in damage output over the same period of time, where are the different use cases? Maybe if you have a lot of gear that gives +encounter damage, then you could use AE. In case you can boost daily damage, go use Ice Knife. Problem is that in the current state of the game, gear that boosts a power category only makes sense for capped players. So the difference in the dailies becomes marginal.

    I'd suggest giving powers more of a distinct opportunity cost. Like let AE be the machine gun it is, and maybe up the damage bonus it gives. But then apply a recharge and damage malus for 10 seconds after AE. That way you can go all in on artifact calls for example, or use Ice Knife for a more reliable source of damage. Ditching "you can't gain AP while AE is running" would also be required to continue to bring powers on par.

    Speaking of Ice Knife: TR Assassins have two dailies with 2000 and 2200 magnitude plus utility. So Ice Knife should have 2200 as well.

    Rogue is meelee class you cant have the same magnitudes.
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User
    edited September 2022



    Rogue is meelee class you cant have the same magnitudes.

    I generally agree, but this is a bad example because Shocking Execution is not harder to land than Ice Knife. It even has some range.
  • aragon#8379 aragon Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited September 2022

    There is another possibility: our engine supports not only directly giving you SpeedRecharge (remember, having more SpeedRecharge just means that, as long as you have it, 1s of real-world time counts as 3s or 5s or whatever of cooldown time). It also supports directly subtracting cooldown from powers (called PowerRecharge). So what I could do is rebuild AE so that, instead of it giving you x3 SpeedRecharge for 10s, it instead subtracts 1s from your spell cooldowns every half second. Same benefit... over 10 seconds, you get 30s worth of cooldown reduction either way. And there's no UI "snap back" when AE expires in this world.

    I think this would be a great solution, and shouldn't be any bother seeing the encounters go from the full cooldown and dropping rapidly, 3s every 1s in your example.

    One minor point: in version 2 (PowerRecharge), I can adjust by subtracting a % of the total cooldown instead of just 1s. Doing that would make Encounter spells with longer cooldowns a more viable choice for AE. So that's another option, if people want it.

    and yes to this!
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User

    That's one lengthy way of avoiding to explain why you're nerfing the class xD

    Perhaps you would like to explain why this is nerfing the class in your opinion. Give proper feedback instead of generic "oh this is bad".

    From my standpoint, it looks at worst a net balance. 80% reduction in encounter usage during artifact calls, however most powers were also buffed by 20% (or more!). Also with the added benefit of addressing the cooldown bug.
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    That's one lengthy way of avoiding to explain why you're nerfing the class xD

    Perhaps you would like to explain why this is nerfing the class in your opinion. Give proper feedback instead of generic "oh this is bad".

    From my standpoint, it looks at worst a net balance. 80% reduction in encounter usage during artifact calls, however most powers were also buffed by 20% (or more!). Also with the added benefit of addressing the cooldown bug.
    The Arcanist rotation wasn't buffed or it's missing in the change log. As it stands the current capstone build on paper will do less damage thanks to AE nerf. Maybe there's another combination or Thauma that will take its place, but that's where the frustration is coming from. Also the reasons are explained in great detail in this thread multiple times. No reason to call out a sarcastic comment when the dev completely ignores the most pressing concerns that have been raised. The reaction is very reasonable.
  • arran#4326 arran Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 69 Arc User
    arazith07 said:

    That's one lengthy way of avoiding to explain why you're nerfing the class xD

    Perhaps you would like to explain why this is nerfing the class in your opinion. Give proper feedback instead of generic "oh this is bad".

    I would gladly do that, had they asked for feedback from wizard mains, instead they got barbarian/paladin/rogue mains to playtest... and not even good ones at that. But ok ok Ima let the nerf happen, I already got too salty for my poor heart :(
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User

    arazith07 said:

    That's one lengthy way of avoiding to explain why you're nerfing the class xD

    Perhaps you would like to explain why this is nerfing the class in your opinion. Give proper feedback instead of generic "oh this is bad".

    I would gladly do that, had they asked for feedback from wizard mains, instead they got barbarian/paladin/rogue mains to playtest... and not even good ones at that. But ok ok Ima let the nerf happen, I already got too salty for my poor heart :(
    Devs: Here are some bug fixes, and first set of public adjustments, give us feedback.
    You: Nah, not gonna give feedback because I didn't get invited to secret playtests.

    Do you even know who was invited? I sure don't, and I'm sure they couldn't say do to NDAs. We have at least a month until M24 goes live...a LOT can change between now and then. If you truly care about the class, maybe don't leave at the first sign of things not going your way.

    arazith07 said:

    That's one lengthy way of avoiding to explain why you're nerfing the class xD

    Perhaps you would like to explain why this is nerfing the class in your opinion. Give proper feedback instead of generic "oh this is bad".

    From my standpoint, it looks at worst a net balance. 80% reduction in encounter usage during artifact calls, however most powers were also buffed by 20% (or more!). Also with the added benefit of addressing the cooldown bug.
    The Arcanist rotation wasn't buffed or it's missing in the change log. As it stands the current capstone build on paper will do less damage thanks to AE nerf. Maybe there's another combination or Thauma that will take its place, but that's where the frustration is coming from. Also the reasons are explained in great detail in this thread multiple times. No reason to call out a sarcastic comment when the dev completely ignores the most pressing concerns that have been raised. The reaction is very reasonable.
    Thank you for readdressing this for me. We are already in the 4th page so some things may fly under the radar or hidden in the wall of texts. Your reasoning makes sense to me as to why it's seen as a nerf.
  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 926 Arc User
    edited September 2022

    (If Shield did 900 Mag on every hit, everyone would use it. That would be too much, though. Is its current Mag enough to make it tempting in some builds? I hope so, but I can't know for sure!)

    For god sake no! This is such a bad idea from the design standpoint - Shield must be mediocre for all purposes because it is an all-in-one power. Shield being actually good in any aspect (HP, CC, DD) would make wizard way too overpowered compared to other classes.
  • drago#9606 drago Member Posts: 40 Arc User

    Ok, lots of strong feelings about Arcane Empowerment, understandably so.

    Let me try to explain my thinking. Lots of details involved, so hang on, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

    Really appreciate the detailed explanation, @rgutscheradev. Arcane Empowerment is without doubt overpowered compared to any other daily in the class, but at the same time it's currently the only reason the class can just about keep up with others. I think the changes as they are will likely see a drop in Arcanist dps, but as long as its an ongoing (and collaborative) process to test the impact of changes on preview and adjust if needed, I don't think anyone can argue... well, they can, but they'd be wrong to.

    One minor point: in version 2 (PowerRecharge), I can adjust by subtracting a % of the total cooldown instead of just 1s. Doing that would make Encounter spells with longer cooldowns a more viable choice for AE. So that's another option, if people want it.

    I like that idea and think we should definitely try it out. Subtracting a % of the cooldown time seems the fairest way to enable all powers to be used effectively if choosing that daily.

  • luffyhaki123luffyhaki123 Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    please fix lightning bolt bug where it doesn't hit anything at all , I will for sure be happy about that, plus if you dont fix that bug , the buff to lightning bolt wont even matter, plus its my favorite skill :p
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    s


    My current thinking is something like a 10% damage buff to Arcanist powers across the board, if we see it's needed. I'd rather do that than have AE continue to be the one ring to rule them all.

    The main powers that an Arcanist uses for single target Damage is: Entangling Force, Repel, Ray of Enfeeblement and Disintegrate! All of which did not receive any improvements that I can see (except 10% more encounter damage while AE is active), So it is a bit worrying when you reduce the effectiveness of AE without improving these main powers! All the other powers will only help with AoE damage improvement.

    Removing the effect of not gaining action points while AE is active should help a fair bit. In the good old days (ToMM) Wizards could use x2 AE in 60s which would help them a bit more in damage in the current meta. Atm you need to be saving your Daily for every 60s during the Artifact call, and so anything in-between 30 to 60s of when you get your daily back is meaningless. It's either every 30s or 60s, no in-between. So if the Wizard cannot obtain a Daily within 30s of combat time, all it's action point bonuses become fairly meaningless, since you have to wait full 60s for the Artifact call then.

    I feel the majority of damage dealt occurs during artifact calls, which should be the primary focus if you're talking about endgame single target balance. How much damage can you push out in a ~10-second window.

    Generating AP while AE is active is beneficial, but I do not feel that will have an effect of balancing the Arcanist's single target damage.
  • gildriadorgildriador Member Posts: 231 Arc User


    My current thinking is something like a 10% damage buff to Arcanist powers across the board, if we see it's needed. I'd rather do that than have AE continue to be the one ring to rule them all.

    For Arcane Empowerment, personally I will prefer a 10% increasing damage to
    Ray of Enfeeblement, Repel, Entangling Force and Disintegrate. For disintegrate I think it should be buffed more.
    Disintegrate should have a stronger magnitude than repel.
    400-600 is low if you compare with the Warlock Killing Flame 650-975.
    The mechanics is not the same but the concept is the same => More Damage when target is low on HP

    One thing that I noticed is, now Chilling Presence is no more a good alternative with the change.
    0.5% should be increased at 1%.
    6% at max in single target is more comparable with the 5% from the new Orb of Imposition.
    And 12% to frozen target is more comparable with the 10% from Evocation.
    Chilling presence need that you work to keep the stack and is part of one of the original mechanics of the wizard.
    And Chilling presence can be used by Arcanist and Thaumaturge.
    “He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.”
    ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,489 Arc User
    edited September 2022
    I rarely/never use Arcane Empowerment with AE. AE is mostly used for trash clear, and stuff is dead in one rotation. For bosses you usually go with a ST loadout.

    So basically it feels like an edge case(Arcane Empowerment on AE) is used to nerf the main case(Arcane Empowerment on ST). This will bring the overall dps of the class down. As was noted elsewhere, Arcane Empowerment on ST is the main dps carrier for wizards. It should be buffed rather than nerfed.
  • thx87thx87 Member Posts: 9 Arc User


    Really appreciate the detailed explanation, @rgutscheradev. Arcane Empowerment is without doubt overpowered compared to any other daily in the class, but at the same time it's currently the only reason the class can just about keep up with others. I think the changes as they are will likely see a drop in Arcanist dps, but as long as its an ongoing (and collaborative) process to test the impact of changes on preview and adjust if needed, I don't think anyone can argue... well, they can, but they'd be wrong to.

    My current thinking is something like a 10% damage buff to Arcanist powers across the board, if we see it's needed. I'd rather do that than have AE continue to be the one ring to rule them all.

    Honestly at this point I don't know where the sum total of all these changes has landed, though. It's possible that Thaumaturge is now better than Arcanist, and that Arcanist needs some extra catchup. It's also quite possible that Arcanist is just fine. (Or that Thaum is OP! Did I overdo it with the Smolder buffs?) A lot of stuff has been buffed, one big thing has been (somewhat) nerfed... the nerf always grabs the attention, but that doesn't necessarily mean there's been a net loss. (And it doesn't necessarily mean that there hasn't! It's just really hard to tell.)
    Hello There

    I beleive one of the main reason for the uproar was not buffing current main Arcanist ST encounters and at-will which are namely: Ray of Enfeeblement, Entangling Force, Repel, Disintegrate encounter and Ray of Frost at-will. 10% overall damage increase would involve them as well.

    Regarding the Arcane Empowerment (AE) daily server-client issue I would be happy with Alacrity for 10 second if you mean that. Maybe even better for some rotations, it depends.

    The only hard-request I would put in is the following: please remove "NO AP gain" block after casting AE daily. It does not make sense, especially after gutting Storm Pillar AP gain without hitting anything. Maybe even a bit of base AP gain buff would be great as well.

    Cheers
  • archmage#5149 archmage Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited September 2022
    @rgutscheradev
    /HOWEVER: the bad part of this version would be that the cooldown meter would display, not the time left till the spell is ready, but the full time. In other words, on a 15s CD spell that you just cast, the current version shows (while AE is up) 5s... 4s... 3s... 2s... 1s... ready! But the new version would show 15s and then every 1s of real-world time, that 15s would go down by 3s. So you'd see the normal, unadjusted cooldowns, but the numbers would just go down much faster (in fact, 3x faster). Would people like that better? /

    No.
    Thank you for considering alternative solutions. I am truly appreciative, and more so since from mod 18 nobody considered any solution, much less alternative ones.
    No.
    It is so counter intuitive and so not user-friendly that it will be unusable.

    I understand that announcing an extra 30 min workbreak and setting the office clock ahead with 30 min achieve the same result of people working 30 min less, but the second scenario it would be so confusing, people will spend the work break to figure out what to do.

    Not only it will be confusing, but people look at cooldowns and try to squeeze other actions in between casting spells. If cooldown say 15 sec but in reality is 5, even knowing that, in mist of actions, we will take the wrong decision.

    Also we do not want to use long cooldown spells on Arcane Empowerment , because even with this new power recharge method, it is not worth it.

    So it is so little to benefit from such an confusing change, that tries to fix a lot less confusing problem.

    Thank you again.
    .
    P.S. Players that are not wizard mains please stop posting because the biases and lack of experience are evident.
    Yes, wizards are biased on their on thread, but that subjectivity it is already taken into consideration. Do not come here to play objective, because you are not, and some are plain hostile towards our class.

  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,259 Arc User
    edited September 2022
    Ty for the explanation, its great when we can have this type of communication @rgutscheradev

    Some points:
    - I think % cd reduction is better and more generic overall. Your %RechargeSpeed should apply, thats important to build diversity. The important thing is to not have the visual bug and do the same or more damage than now.
    - Your explanation to how to calculate numbers is great, but you didnt take into considerations procs. Encounter powers can proc things like gear (armor and helm for example) that is important to the final damage. Also other procs like feats (and stormspell was reduced), weapon enchant, lostmauth, artifact set like mithalar, etc. All together make a good portion of the damage, and help with the %stats (so more damage).
    - I would like to remove the restriction of gaining AP while AE but thats more of a personal thing. I usually recharge daily in ~40 secs, and I have to keep it the next 20 secs to sync with artifact / mount burst.
    - I understand changing Ligning bolt for Chain Lignhing is something that can be done in this changes, but please dont abandone

    Also I would like to know if its doable to have more playstiles, instead of use all feats to do more dmg, feats that allow other builds. We will figure witch 2 feats do more dmg and wont change them forever.
    I will give you an example to make a stat like controlbonus desirable, and make a debuff build:
    - When you use a control power, there is a 20% chance that that the enemy %deflectSeverity is reduced by half your %ControlBonus for 10 seconds. Cooldown 20 seconds.

    Finally, I would like to give an idea about shield. It could be possible to give temp hp to all party members? It would be usable in group content, I also think that the cast time and animation is horrible to be used in combat

    Thank you for your work and communication!
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
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  • mickbroster#9925 mickbroster Member Posts: 13 Arc User
    I would just like to add my name to the list of getting rid of no AP gain during Arcane empowerment.
    I mod the wizard discord and there seems to be an overwhelming agreement that we would like to see this happen

    I’m holding off on other comments until these changes can be tested. But that one is a very popular and I think would be a massive improvement on the daily. Certainly to the point of putting it on preview to test its viability especially as you commented it would be an easy fix
  • drago#9606 drago Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    krevg said:

    I hope these above comments help to clarify the issues many of us are having specifically with the changes to both AE and Spell Storm. I'd be happy to do both normal runs or trials with you on both live and preview servers to help illuminate the points I've made above in actual in-game situations.

    I think the contexts point is an important one. I would hope that - given the open communication displayed here - if a group of people were to present wizard ACT logs and relevant calculations/trends resulting from them, recorded in different contexts (trials with artefact calls, dragon hunts, dungeons, training room/dummy etc) on both preview and live, that the results would be used to make further changes if/where needed.
  • archmage#5149 archmage Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited September 2022
    1.The reason AP gain was restricted during Arcane Empowerment was that by the time we finish daily we would have a new daily ready.
    But since that decision was made, all classes had extensive reworks and I truly do not know what is the medium number of ap gain per minute for dps classes.
    Also some classes use animation cancel with much more benefit than wizard can ever do, that must be taken into consideration.

    2. If everybody test the same rotation with RoE on tab , that was NEVER the best rotation since mod 17, when ToMM was done with many wizards and the up time was 100, the test does not mean much.
    Also people publish guides where Entangling is not the 4 spell witch adds a 4 dot to the spell, dots benefiting from previous arcane stacks, because they do not play wizard.

    3. Maybe is time to ditch RoE at all from rotation and use Arcane Conduit on tab and other feats.
    And maybe is high time for wizards to not feel pressured to buff other dps with RoE and then be thankful it is still invited.



  • aragon#8379 aragon Member Posts: 128 Arc User
    edited September 2022
    d4rkh0rs3 said:


    Generating AP while AE is active is beneficial, but I do not feel that will have an effect of balancing the Arcanist's single target damage.

    The intent, as I've said, would be to have the Wizard Arcanist with enough Action Point regen (in combo with the right build) to be able to cast a Daily power between Artifact calls, in addition of course to during the artifact call!

    So with stacking all the reasonable action point regen sources, it would be cool to give the ability for the Wizard Arcanist to cast a Daily power every 30s. Making it so you can gain Action Points While in AE would help towards that!
    Post edited by aragon#8379 on
  • archmage#5149 archmage Member Posts: 55 Arc User
    edited September 2022
    1. Still waiting for somebody to name a dps class that has as mandatory Class Skill buffing others.
    2. then name a dps class that has as mandatory Class Skill to buff all others EXCEPT itself.
    I am waiting.







  • gildriadorgildriador Member Posts: 231 Arc User

    1. Still waiting for somebody to name a dps class that has as mandatory Class Skill buffing others.
    2. then name a dps class that has as mandatory Class Skill to buff all others EXCEPT itself.
    I am waiting.

    I agree that Controlled Momentum should be a self buff.

    For Arcane Empowerement if we can have AP gain while under the effect of AE and an increase of 10% to all single target arcane spells. I will want both.

    But, if we need to choose, I will repeat myself, my choice will be 10% more damage to arcane spells.
    “He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.”
    ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,719 Arc User

    1. Still waiting for somebody to name a dps class that has as mandatory Class Skill buffing others.
    2. then name a dps class that has as mandatory Class Skill to buff all others EXCEPT itself.
    I am waiting.

    For your first question, Rangers has a passive that gives everyone 5% CA which everyone expects you to have, BUT it does benefit from it itself. Controlled Momentum should benefit the wizard as well.
  • +10% damage to arcanist powers would be a very good thing, but what I would really like is for it to reduce the ice terrain cd by 3 seconds, this would directly improve the aoe damage of the class and help with rotation.

    Someone with a lot of wisdom once explained to me that when a power has a difference of more than 3 seconds from the others, all rotation is damaged.
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