therealprotexMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 526Arc User
Interesting how the species "human" is conditioned. All this talk about punishment, although we know very well that every attempt to educate intelligent beings by punishing bad behavior fails in the long run and will lead to toxic environments. And from dog education we also know that education by rewarding good behavior works very well. Applicable for RQs? I'd give it a try.
Another issue with a timer system could be with ancient dragons, sometimes people don't want mods while most do, so someone could activate one circle than others may need time to come to an agreement about mods this could take some time with people stand outside of the circle this would be another case where a timer system could cause players who are trying to come to some sort of agreement in regards to mods to be kicked and receive a leaver penalty which again totally not fair.
Can't stress enough it's nowhere near as bad as people are making out, I run nothing but public groups for multiple hours everyday sometimes literally 12-14hours straight, all random queues and Dragon hunts on ps4, and my honest opinion is I will encounter someone who decides to leave instance once in a blue moon
Just because it doesn't happen to you often enough for you to see it as an issue does not mean that it occurs at the same frequency for others.
but everything you have outlined seems like an awful amount of work on the devs part of something that's not all that game breaking
Whenever a player leaves the instance w/o leaving the group it is an issue when it holds up the rest of the group while the offending player is being selfish by not taking the leaver penalty. Not being able to proceed in RQ content because of an offending player IS game breaking, even worse because currently there is no penalty for doing so.
Adding timers "shouldn't" be a lot of work. There is already a timer to join an RQ, where if the prompt is not confirmed within the time or is declined the character is removed from the group so the same could go for the "circle timer". The difference being the trigger to prevent being removed would be entering and staying within the circle.
Although that said maybe instead discouraging people from enter queues, developers address the reasons why people are trying to avoid certain public content in the first place and make it so people are less likely to want to avoid any given public content.
...
Generally there is usually a reason for someone to be trying to avoid certain content.
Sure mechanics/difficulty may play a role in content preference though arguably players tend to want the shortest path to rewards plain and simple while the longer/tougher content is often enough not desired for that very reason, pretty much nothing more, nothing less in that regard.
Prior to RQ's players and bot designers chose the simplest content, then RQ's made it to where there was no choice in the content and that other players had to be carried along so that all could get rewards (which artificially increased the time to complete). Players used to run super buffed groups so later on buffs were nerfed/removed and stat scaling was introduced (which further artificially increased completion time/difficulty. Player actions/behavior pushed those changes to happen. Whose fault is that?
If "longer" content had the rewards somewhat improved that may be step in the right direction though personally wouldn't push for that because arguably completing all 4 RQ types (or just 3, minus the ADQ) takes around an hour regardless of the content chosen. 100k RAD + other rewards from the chest(s) for around an hour of time is a fairly good time to reward ratio.
If cryptic introduce a timer system and it ends up bugging out and causing players to recieve unfair penalties, I will be the first to laugh and say I did warn ya.
So what? Have to start somewhere. Pretty sure even if it starts out bugged and gets polished to work properly later on players not being held up by instance leaving, holding the group hostage behavior will overall be pleased.
Another issue with a timer system could be with ancient dragons, sometimes people don't want mods while most do, so someone could activate one circle than others may need time to come to an agreement about mods this could take some time with people stand outside of the circle this would be another case where a timer system could cause players who are trying to come to some sort of agreement in regards to mods to be kicked and receive a leaver penalty which again totally not fair.
The timer could simply be increased for dragon hunts...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Interesting how the species "human" is conditioned. All this talk about punishment, although we know very well that every attempt to educate intelligent beings by punishing bad behavior fails in the long run and will lead to toxic environments. And from dog education we also know that education by rewarding good behavior works very well. Applicable for RQs? I'd give it a try.
After decades of video games being around, especially MMO's, players STILL tend to go Rat King trying to find the "cheese".
The toxic environment of groups easily being able to be be held up by a pouting player will be lessened quite a lot at least.
The result of giving players the leaver penalty when they intentionally hold up a group is upon them. Whether they are "educated" or not, their negative behavior will no longer have such an influence over the rest of the group which is the point. Players that don't commit such acts are pretty much in the clear while those that do, have a few choices to make:
- keep getting put in timeout (no rewards). - don't RQ (no rewards). - run the content (get rewards).
RQ's already reward for "good behavior" (some negative behavior as well unfortunately). Run the content even if you don't like it, don't hold the group up, get rewards, seems pretty straight forward right?
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Some people are really clever here, not able to think beyond their own point of views... The game is different for some that are shy and don't like making parties. Also, newer players aren't really active on the forums much so a lot of so called better players need to realize there is a player base out there beyond your comprehension. Not all ideas are great, but they come from a place where a problem exist. Don't tell them the solution already exists and its by making premade parties. Help find a solution or rather keep to yourself.
Can't stress enough it's nowhere near as bad as people are making out, I run nothing but public groups for multiple hours everyday sometimes literally 12-14hours straight, all random queues and Dragon hunts on ps4, and my honest opinion is I will encounter someone who decides to leave instance once in a blue moon
Just because it doesn't happen to you often enough for you to see it as an issue does not mean that it occurs at the same frequency for o
but everything you have outlined seems like an awful amount of work on the devs part of something that's not all that game breaking
Whenever a player leaves the instance w/o leaving the group it is an issue when it holds up the rest of the group while the offending player is being selfish by not taking the leaver penalty. Not being able to proceed in RQ content because of an offending player IS game breaking, even worse because currently there is no penalty for doing so.
Adding timers "shouldn't" be a lot of work. There is already a timer to join an RQ, where if the prompt is not confirmed within the time or is declined the character is removed from the group so the same could go for the "circle timer". The difference being the trigger to prevent being removed would be entering and staying within the circle.
Although that said maybe instead discouraging people from enter queues, developers address the reasons why people are trying to avoid certain public content in the first place and make it so people are less likely to want to avoid any given public content.
...
Generally there is usually a reason for someone to be trying to avoid certain content.
Sure mechanics/difficulty may play a role in content preference though arguably players tend to want the shortest path to rewards plain and simple while the longer/tougher content is often enough not desired for that very reason, pretty much nothing more, nothing less in that regard.
Prior to RQ's players and bot designers chose the simplest content, then RQ's made it to where there was no choice in the content and that other players had to be carried along so that all could get rewards (which artificially increased the time to complete). Players used to run super buffed groups so later on buffs were nerfed/removed and stat scaling was introduced (which further artificially increased completion time/difficulty. Player actions/behavior pushed those changes to happen. Whose fault is that?
If "longer" content had the rewards somewhat improved that may be step in the right direction though personally wouldn't push for that because arguably completing all 4 RQ types (or just 3, minus the ADQ) takes around an hour regardless of the content chosen. 100k RAD + other rewards from the chest(s) for around an hour of time is a fairly good time to reward ratio.
If cryptic introduce a timer system and it ends up bugging out and causing players to recieve unfair penalties, I will be the first to laugh and say I did warn ya.
So what? Have to start somewhere. Pretty sure even if it starts out bugged and gets polished to work properly later on players not being held up by instance leaving, holding the group hostage behavior will overall be pleased.
Another issue with a timer system could be with ancient dragons, sometimes people don't want mods while most do, so someone could activate one circle than others may need time to come to an agreement about mods this could take some time with people stand outside of the circle this would be another case where a timer system could cause players who are trying to come to some sort of agreement in regards to mods to be kicked and receive a leaver penalty which again totally not fair.
The timer could simply be increased for dragon hunts...
Simply increasing timer will not prevent unfair penalties, as no can determine how long it might take to come to an agreement with others, if than want to resort to kicking than there's no point to timer at all.
You pretty much say my personal experience doesn't matter, but than I can just turn it round to you, you personal experience doesn't mean its as bad as you make it out, this just begins a silly back and forth
Can't stress enough it's nowhere near as bad as people are making out, I run nothing but public groups for multiple hours everyday sometimes literally 12-14hours straight, all random queues and Dragon hunts on ps4, and my honest opinion is I will encounter someone who decides to leave instance once in a blue moon
Just because it doesn't happen to you often enough for you to see it as an issue does not mean that it occurs at the same frequency for others.
but everything you have outlined seems like an awful amount of work on the devs part of something that's not all that game breaking
Whenever a player leaves the instance w/o leaving the group it is an issue when it holds up the rest of the group while the offending player is being selfish by not taking the leaver penalty. Not being able to proceed in RQ content because of an offending player IS game breaking, even worse because currently there is no penalty for doing so.
Adding timers "shouldn't" be a lot of work. There is already a timer to join an RQ, where if the prompt is not confirmed within the time or is declined the character is removed from the group so the same could go for the "circle timer". The difference being the trigger to prevent being removed would be entering and staying within the circle.
Although that said maybe instead discouraging people from enter queues, developers address the reasons why people are trying to avoid certain public content in the first place and make it so people are less likely to want to avoid any given public content.
...
Generally there is usually a reason for someone to be trying to avoid certain content.
Sure mechanics/difficulty may play a role in content preference though arguably players tend to want the shortest path to rewards plain and simple while the longer/tougher content is often enough not desired for that very reason, pretty much nothing more, nothing less in that regard.
Prior to RQ's players and bot designers chose the simplest content, then RQ's made it to where there was no choice in the content and that other players had to be carried along so that all could get rewards (which artificially increased the time to complete). Players used to run super buffed groups so later on buffs were nerfed/removed and stat scaling was introduced (which further artificially increased completion time/difficulty. Player actions/behavior pushed those changes to happen. Whose fault is that?
If "longer" content had the rewards somewhat improved that may be step in the right direction though personally wouldn't push for that because arguably completing all 4 RQ types (or just 3, minus the ADQ) takes around an hour regardless of the content chosen. 100k RAD + other rewards from the chest(s) for around an hour of time is a fairly good time to reward ratio.
If cryptic introduce a timer system and it ends up bugging out and causing players to recieve unfair penalties, I will be the first to laugh and say I did warn ya.
So what? Have to start somewhere. Pretty sure even if it starts out bugged and gets polished to work properly later on players not being held up by instance leaving, holding the group hostage behavior will overall be pleased.
Another issue with a timer system could be with ancient dragons, sometimes people don't want mods while most do, so someone could activate one circle than others may need time to come to an agreement about mods this could take some time with people stand outside of the circle this would be another case where a timer system could cause players who are trying to come to some sort of agreement in regards to mods to be kicked and receive a leaver penalty which again totally not fair.
The timer could simply be increased for dragon hunts...
No simply increase the time will not prevent unfair penalties if agreements can't be reached.
You say just because it doesn't happen to me frequently doesn't reflect how often it happens to other, this is a silly argument I can just turn back around and say just because it happens to you frequently doesn't reflect everyone either pointless rebuttal to reasonable comment which by the way never claimed my own personal experience would be the be end all.
Improve rewards and you damage the AH as we have seen since the last reward improvements, and actually increasing rewards will in the long term cause more harm as the game gets flooded with things people just want to flog which drives value down which reduces the value of running content over time.
You say adding timers shouldn't be alot of work, well no one would think fixing the cleric mark or shield bug would be too much work but still not fixed, unless you are a developer for cryptic you can't know what will be alot of work for them or not granted neither can I ofcourse, however considering how old this game is if players leaving an instance or going afk was really considered an issue by cryptic why havnt they already implemented it, my guess is they all ready know the issues a timer will cause
Again there is already a solution and I won't stop saying it, go private than you do what ever you want, you can control your group, otherwise go public and accept you may once in a blue moon have to kick some one for whatever reason, don't like the 4 hour cooldown for kicking that ask for that to be reduced.
First of all, welcome to MMO. It's one of MMO element, that some players are friendly, some ignorant and also some toxic.
Now the issue what is debated about is that some players leave dungeon but not quit q/party.
Easy solution to fix it. Remove door/entrace portal in start of dungeon, so player can't walk out of dungeon. Also when try use any other way to move out of dungeon to be considered as abandon group.
Now will that stop players from doing it? Some will be discouraged, but other portion of playerbase will pick other option. Which is simply switch alts, or like in other previous played games, you for moment disconnect from internet, which also disconnect you from game server. So instead log in to your character which is inside dungeon you log in with alt. WIth alt do some side game content, or even do q to dungeon( whatever). Meanwhile your previosu characters is sonsidered as offline, so party members have wait till disconnection time expire and system remove your character from group/party or, they have votekick you. Either way it does not discourage players from such behavior.
I didn't read much of suggested ideas, cuz I notice that fundemental flaw within it.
You all here want to punish players who doing it. Instead looking reasons why they do it. If you find out why they do that and fix it, then there will be no need to implement punishment features, which may cause more a problem then help.
As good example, Cabal Online in one time used feature pin code system, as feature to block bot activity.
Now while it worked against bots, it also caused problem for other players. Cuz once pin box opened, you are unable use any your character items or abilies..
So after year, the system where removed from game.
Eventually game developers and publishers simply elimiante certain items trading, which more less made botting pointless. And due roughly 80% of bots where gone.
So instead trying punish, you need solve reason why players do leave dungeon. Once you make so it would no longer be beneficia;, then players will simply quit doing it.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Simply increasing timer will not prevent unfair penalties, as no can determine how long it might take to come to an agreement with others, if than want to resort to kicking than there's no point to timer at all.
If the set timer isn't seen to be enough, then players can come to the forums and voice their opinion(s) about it like they do pretty much everything else. The timer system is a general suggestion, personally haven't put suggested times of what the timers could/should be, left that open for discussion to build upon the idea...
You pretty much say my personal experience doesn't matter, but than I can just turn it round to you, you personal experience doesn't mean its as bad as you make it out, this just begins a silly back and forth
No where in any of the posts personally made here was it stated that your experience doesn't matter yet you continually state this:
Again that why the best solution already exists just premake your group ... you than won't have to deal with people asking to be kicked or going afk.
The above quote is you being hypocritical...
You keep saying "pre-made groups", so continue with your pre-made groups then. You are arguing against something that will effect you little if at all being that these suggestions will not harm the pre-made group style of play that you tout.
You say just because it doesn't happen to me frequently doesn't reflect how often it happens to other, this is a silly argument I can just turn back around and say just because it happens to you frequently doesn't reflect everyone either pointless rebuttal to reasonable comment which by the way never claimed my own personal experience would be the be end all.
False.
It was stated in so many words that just because it doesn't happen to you frequently doesn't mean that it doesn't happen frequently to others.
When someone says "hey, this is an issue for me, I would like to see something done about it" and another person responds with "hey, that doesn't happen a lot to me, you are making it bigger than what it is, you should do this instead" they are gaslighting the other person by demeaning what they have personally experienced, which is what you are doing...
Improve rewards and you damage the AH as we have seen since the last reward improvements, and actually increasing rewards will in the long term cause more harm as the game gets flooded with things people just want to flog which drives value down which reduces the value of running content over time.
The suggestion to improve rewards was not detailed...
The number of refinement items (blood rubies, alexandrite, brilliant diamonds, etc.) from the chests at the end of longer content could be increased without severely harming the trade house while increasing the "value" of running longer content. RP items sell for very little on the trade house. Currently violet diamonds (50k RP) sell for less than 3.5k EACH on PS4, even doubling those drops from long content chests arguably won't harm that market severely.
You say adding timers shouldn't be alot of work, well no one would think fixing the cleric mark or shield bug would be too much work but still not fixed, unless you are a developer for cryptic you can't know what will be alot of work for them or not granted neither can I ofcourse,
Keyword, "shouldn't"...
Coding something that is dependent on multiple variables is essentially harder than coding timers that will return a particular result EVERY time, in this case, kicking players that are outside of the instance/circle for "x" number of seconds.
BTW have personally coded for apps as well as a few video games that are currently being developed by this user.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Easy solution to fix it. Remove door/entrace portal in start of dungeon, so player can't walk out of dungeon. Also when try use any other way to move out of dungeon to be considered as abandon group.
Sometimes a player may want to leave the instance and take a few moments to visit a vendor/bank which is why the suggestion to remove being able to temporarily leave the instance was not personally made.
Allowing players some time to leave the instance and ready themselves is reasonable.
Now will that stop players from doing it? Some will be discouraged, but other portion of playerbase will pick other option. Which is simply switch alts, or like in other previous played games
Within the past month or so queued on a character and attempted to switch to see what would happen and was met with a prompt that stated something along the lines of "logging onto this character may/will cause the other queued character to receive the leaver penalty". Tried it again a few moments ago and didn't get the prompt, seems that protection system was disabled. Enabling it again will prevent players from holding a group hostage while they do things on another character(s) and should discourage/prevent them from even trying to do so.
Sometimes a player may want to leave the instance and take a few moments to visit a vendor/bank which is why the suggestion to remove being able to temporarily leave the instance was not personally made.
Allowing players some time to leave the instance and ready themselves is reasonable.
When I wrote my suggestion about removing gate/portal, I already counted in such possibility that players may require to get potions. However, in all my previous played games it was thing that you make preparation before entering dungeon, not after you get in.
Also you can trade potions, so whats the problem here?
I was in pug group, and one guy in the middle of lomm said, sorry I need get in PE for moment. He wrote me that he wanted pick artefact from his bank. Ok. After 10 min, he was still out of dungeon. So I asked where you are.. he said in PE. But via Social search I found he was in avernus, doing huntings.
In the moment he was bootkick.
So, some may use feature to move out and back in dungeon for reason to get x stufs from bank, or buy potions. But there are those who use in negative way.
I think it would be better if players get used to be ready before entering dugeon. Also healers are in group, so even if you lack HP potions, you may still survive.
Within the past month or so queued on a character and attempted to switch to see what would happen and was met with a prompt that stated something along the lines of "logging onto this character may/will cause the other queued character to receive the leaver penalty". Tried it again a few moments ago and didn't get the prompt, seems that protection system was disabled. Enabling it again will prevent players from holding a group hostage while they do things on another character(s) and should discourage/prevent them from even trying to do so.
So you are still with 1 account? It's now more less normal to have at least two accounts.
As previously mentioned some do it when the content isn't to their liking or they feel the group isn't up to par.
Some yes, some does for other reasons.
For some players, well I can give you example. Take LoMM as dungeon, get a rogue with BoA, and rest of group's presence is no longer required. You clear dungeonas it would be speedrun content. Even without BoA, the primary dps does 80% of dmg, second dps somewhere 10%, and third's dps presnce is not even required. Tanking in LOMM, is musch "required". for most of dungeon you do.. ...... ..... Nothing, your presence is optional at finall boss fight. What's about older dungeon? One player required, rest are just passengers. So how much you like being a passanger in dungeon run, when all is just /Follow_Prime dps. In short, why stay in dungeon if you presence is not even requried.?
For other it's opposite, if they see that in that dungeon/trial they may not be carried through. They simply walk away, and do other content.
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Simply increasing timer will not prevent unfair penalties, as no can determine how long it might take to come to an agreement with others, if than want to resort to kicking than there's no point to timer at all.
If the set timer isn't seen to be enough, then players can come to the forums and voice their opinion(s) about it like they do pretty much everything else. The timer system is a general suggestion, personally haven't put suggested times of what the timers could/should be, left that open for discussion to build upon the idea...
You pretty much say my personal experience doesn't matter, but than I can just turn it round to you, you personal experience doesn't mean its as bad as you make it out, this just begins a silly back and forth
No where in any of the posts personally made here was it stated that your experience doesn't matter yet you continually state this:
Again that why the best solution already exists just premake your group ... you than won'tĺ have to deal with people asking to be kicked or going afk.
The above quote is you being hypocritical...
You keep saying "pre-made groups", so continue with your pre-made groups then. You are arguing against something that will effect you little if at all being that these suggestions will not harm the pre-made group style of play that you tout.
You say just because it doesn't happen to me frequently doesn't reflect how often it happens to other, this is a silly argument I can just turn back around and say just because it happens to you frequently doesn't reflect everyone either pointless rebuttal to reasonable comment which by the way never claimed my own personal experience would be the be end all.
False.
It was stated in so many words that just because it doesn't happen to you frequently doesn't mean that it doesn't happen frequently to others.
When someone says "hey, this is an issue for me, I would like to see something done about it" and another person responds with "hey, that doesn't happen a lot to me, you are making it bigger than what it is, you should do this instead" they are gaslighting the other person by demeaning what they have personally experienced, which is what you are doing...
Improve rewards and you damage the AH as we have seen since the last reward improvements, and actually increasing rewards will in the long term cause more harm as the game gets flooded with things people just want to flog which drives value down which reduces the value of running content over time.
The suggestion to improve rewards was not detailed...
The number of refinement items (blood rubies, alexandrite, brilliant diamonds, etc.) from the chests at the end of longer content could be increased without severely harming the trade house while increasing the "value" of running longer content. RP items sell for very little on the trade house. Currently violet diamonds (50k RP) sell for less than 3.5k EACH on PS4, even doubling those drops from long content chests arguably won't harm that market severely.
You say adding timers shouldn't be alot of work, well no one would think fixing the cleric mark or shield bug would be too much work but still not fixed, unless you are a developer for cryptic you can't know what will be alot of work for them or not granted neither can I ofcourse,
Keyword, "shouldn't"...
Coding something that is dependent on multiple variables is essentially harder than coding timers that will return a particular result EVERY time, in this case, kicking players that are outside of the instance/circle for "x" number of seconds.
BTW have personally coded for apps as well as a few video games that are currently being developed by this user.
False
You just want to see people get punished unfairly for stupid things that barely effects anyone I can just as easily saythose who are blowing this up into a problem are the ones gas lighting, Refinements is only the tip of the iceberg, and RP is a reward no one cares about no point even talking about it, already stated bugs that may occur from timers which yeah you brush off that basically fine with that and happy with waiting to be fixed if they ever occur you don't care about a fair playing experience for everyone you just care that people don't hold you up so again I can just easily claim everything you are saying is gaslighting, leaving us again at an impass.
You may not like that the solution already exist or you may not like what the solution already is but its there use it or don't your choice.
When I wrote my suggestion about removing gate/portal, I already counted in such possibility that players may require to get potions.
However, in all my previous played games it was thing that you make preparation before entering dungeon, not after you get in.
There are a lot of things to keep track of in Neverwinter and sometimes a player just plain forgets something.
Sometimes a queue pops faster than you can prepare for, point being that leaving an instance for a few minutes AND returning to run the content is forgivable.
The suggested timers would prevent players from leaving for whatever reason indefinitely and not be penalized (as they currently can without penalty) if they overstay outside the instance. To cover pretty much ALL bases, simply if they don't come back in "x" minutes they are automatically removed from the group, receive the leaver penalty, reinforcements can be found and the group can carry on without having to wait for the vote kick to become available (15 minutes?) or someone leaving out of frustration and taking the leaver penalty themselves.
You just want to see people get punished unfairly for stupid things that barely effects anyone
Players in a RQ group being unreasonably held up by a pouting player is stupid while players intentionally holding up a group and not receiving a penalty for doing so isn't? Wow...
Holding a group up because you don't like the RQ content and or leaving an instance without returning then being automatically removed from the group after "x" minutes is NOT an unfair punishment, it is beyond justified. Being selfish and holding up the rest of the group is NOT a "fair playing experience for everyone" as you put it, yet here you are again being hypocritical. Yeah you can say it's gas lighting, though can you substantiate the claim(s)? Probably not.
If it affects one player, it can affect ALL players, hell it has even happened to you yet you act like it cannot be a big deal to somebody else. On top of that you previously replied:
You pretty much say my personal experience doesn't matter ... you personal experience doesn't mean its as bad as you make it out
On one hand you try to hold your personal experience of it not happening to you as much as others higher than the personal experiences of those that it has and continues to happen to, in other words, that their personal experience matters less if at all. Do you even care that it happens to others?
That type of behavior happening on top of unreasonably holding up a RQ group while at the same time players having little to no options against it is bad period. To say something that is continually happening to players is not as bad as they make it out to be is quite inconsiderate.
Hostile behavior that holds the group up without penalty IS a problem, hence why the thread was created in the first place and why some have voiced their opinion in favor of it. It's a problem for players whether you accept it or not.
If you don't like the RQ content, take the leaver penalty, trying to force others with hostile behavior to spend a vote kick because you don't want to rightfully take the leaver penalty is selfish.
For whatever reason(s) you are continually defending that type of behavior by arguing against a suggested system that will dispose of it after "x" minutes...
RP is a reward no one cares about no point even talking about it
False again.
Lots of players care about RP, and getting more RP for not so preferred content is a step forward from pretty much any RQ type essentially having the same rewards no matter the length of time it takes to complete the content itself. Whether it takes 15 or 40+ minutes, the base rewards are pretty much the same so what's the problem with increasing RP rewards for content that inherently takes longer to complete?
developers address the reasons why people are trying to avoid certain public content in the first place and make it so people are less likely to want to avoid any given public content.
Increasing rewards is one way to do just that... If players feel their time spent is rewarded decently they arguably are less likely to try and skip particular RQ content.
Yet when it was personally responded to with increasing RP rewards, you turned right around and went against it... Are you arguing against the suggestion just to be arguing? It really seems like you are.
already stated bugs that may occur from timers which yeah you brush off that basically fine with that
Yes bugs may occur with implementing the suggested system, so what? They also may not occur so what is your point exactly with mentioning POTENTIAL bugs?
Pointing out "potential" problems does not simply negate or detract from the suggestion itself, which it seems you are adamantly trying to do, although it's not working.
You respond and are accordingly and reasonably responded to. You think (apparently):
- the detailed hostile/negative behavior should not be punished. - increasing rewards to entice players to run currently less preferred content is not a good idea. - potential bugs negates the suggested system. - since it doesn't happen often enough to you that the detailed negative behavior isn't that much of a problem. - that pre-made groups are the solution instead of directly engaging the behavior itself. - etc., etc.
There's essentially nothing to agree with you about. You attack the suggested timer system illogically then try and use conjecture to support your claims. YOU are at an impasse, this user is actively building a suggestion to help lessen the effects of particular hostile/negative behavior in regard to RQ's.
Personally want the detailed hostile behavior to be met with removal from the queue group, which it should be. In other words removing those specific behaviors from holding a group up beyond "x" minutes instead of looking the other way in hopes the behavior will stop on its own.
Since you tout pre-made groups so much, they don't simply negate the potential for negative behavior as you lead others to believe. Pre-made groups can and do have their own pitfalls such as:
- Falling apart even with players that are familiar with each other. - Newer players may not know anyone. - Newer players may not know how to use the text chat to even utilize pre-made groups in the first place. - Language barriers. - At any given time a player(s) in a pre-made group can go AFK/drop group for whatever reason. - Jealousy. - Helping prevent players from meeting other players if they simply tun with the same group(s). - If the player base strictly ran pre-made groups there would essentially be no available reinforcements. - Solo players would be left out. - Etc.
Your suggestion has the above holes in it, what about that? Expecting pre-made groups to somehow simply prevent negative behavior is quit the reach. Yes pre-made groups can help, though it isn't foolproof and quite far from a "solution", especially since there are so many variables in play at pretty much any given time and a sizable portion of the player base isn't really taken into consideration (newer players/those not really familiar with the game).
Have personally been in pre-made dragon hunt groups where a player just up and leaves the group AFTER the first, second or terribly, the third dragon fight is initiated, when that happens even if the player is replaced they can't get into the fight until everyone else dies and the group has to COMPLETELY start over... If the group is private the queue leader pretty much has to leave the instance/use guild/alliance chat to find a replacement, even then, if they leave, they too can't get into the fight along with the replacement...
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
All your so called pitfall are all things you would sort before starting match none of that takes away from the fact premade groups is the solution to this OP, again all you want is too see people recive unnecessary penalties for something that is not an issue except for by the looks of this thread only 3 people have have problem with voting to kick someone who doesn't want to be in certain content.
I didnt attack your idea I pointed out the issues that occur but your so set you don't care either you just want a silly timer to kick people indiscriminately.
If you want to avoid people going afk or asking to be kicked premake your group with people you get on with, those people aren't on ? make some new friends or just don't play if someone going afk is so game breaking for you that makes you call for everyone to recive penalties for not fitting inside your personal box.
Literally majority of your wall of text isn't even worth reading at this point your stubborn that you want a timer we get it I totally disagree that a timer will fix anything and is more to cause worse issues. Again we are at an impass
Private groups are the solution while you think everyone should be locked into content or take a ban.
By the way misquoting me and than claiming I'm saying something I'm not is gaslighting, you have revealed how you, your entire response is gaslighting.
As for arguing for the sake of arguing, look in a mirror, that's all this thread is.
Literally majority of your wall of text isn't even worth reading at this point your stubborn that you want a timer we get it I totally disagree that a timer will fix anything and is more to cause worse issues.
Pre-made groups are not the solution here, players want something more concrete to deal with the griefing behavior. Save yourself the time and energy, please stop reading this user's responses plain and simple.
all you want is too see people recive unnecessary penalties for something that is not an issue except for by the looks of this thread only 3 people have have problem with voting to kick someone who doesn't want to be in certain content.
As far as someone wanting to leave without penalty, if they are vote kicked, fine, in the meantime before the vote kick they should actively run the content. Though if they are not vote kicked and they proceed to exhibit negative/hostile behavior (not actively running the content, - exiting the instance, - holding the group "hostage", - "disconnecting"), not fine and they should receive the leaver penalty.
Hi, There are a lot of players that leave the area of the RTQ/ RADQ but do not leave party. We can only vote to kick a player once every 4 hours. Just recently "insert player name" joined RTQ and said kick me from the start. Then he left the area but did not leave party. After 2 minutes he disconnected but still in party. Can something be done to discourage this type of behavior? He is not the only person that does this. ... Two RTQ's one after the other someone left the game without leaving party.
The OP's OP and the timer suggestion isn't about not wanting to vote kick players that want to be vote kicked. It's about players holding up the group for at least 15 minutes for the vote kick option to become active by leaving the instance or not entering the gather party circle.
Player said vote kick from the START AND left the instance. Again, a vote kick cannot be started until at least 15 minutes have passed and you think the rest of a group should have to wait 15 minutes before TRYING to get rid of them while the offending player runs around doing whatever when the suggested timers could get rid of them a lot sooner? That is beyond ridiculous and inconsiderate.
3 people on the forums and there are arguably plenty more people that will agree that are not on the forums. Clearly at least 2 people in this thread DO NOT want to pre-make groups just to RQ so repeatedly suggested that that been done is also inconsiderate. This thread is about something being done about specific, hostile player behaviors, not tip toeing around the core issue. If players would just run the RQ content or take the leaver penalty the suggestions here arguably wouldn't have come up in the first place. As usual players tend to need "assisstance" with not griefing others.
Simply ask in zone chat in protector's enclave for a few days whether players would rather wait 15 minutes to try and vote kick someone holding up the RQ group because they left the instance without leaving the group/not entering the gather your party circle or a system that would automatically remove them in less than half the time.
I didnt attack your idea I pointed out the issues that occur but your so set you don't care either you just want a silly timer to kick people indiscriminately.
Bugs might occur if the system is implemented. A person may get hurt after leaving their house. In either case the possibility of something negative does not simply prevent either from happening. Players are in fact being griefed by pouty players in RQ's, not simply a possibility. Players in fact want something done about grieifing behavior, not simply a possibility.
Once again the timer system will not kick people indiscriminately.
If you leave the instance and come back within "x" minutes = No kick If you enter the gather your party circle within "x" minutes/remain in the circle = No kick If you leave the instance and DO NOT come back within "x" minutes = KICKED If you DO NOT enter the gather your party circle within "x" minutes or are not in the circle when the timer is up = KICKED
your stubborn that you want a timer we get it I totally disagree that a timer will fix anything and is more to cause worse issues.
The timers will get rid of the players intentionally holding up the group, that effect is essentially what the OP, this user and other players want. Pre-making groups is not the desired "solution" here, yet you keep mentioning it as if it will simply change.
You are a blue shirt at a red shirt meeting trying to tell the red shirts what they should and should not do and how to go about resolving an issue they are clearly having.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Red shirt at a blue shirt meeting huh yeah I'm preventing an echo chamber...so what this has nothing to do with anything
Emergency- you should know the people you are premaking with so 9/10 your likely going to get prepared of an emergency such as need to change a babies nappy or whatever a whole bunch of things can be sorted easier simply by knowing the people you playing with this is literally a non starter
You keep wanting to press that if your being held up that the person holding you up is being toxic or presenting negative behaviour when actually there just not doing what you want, it's so game breaking having to wait 15mins to kick someone huh, remove the 15min wait timer like they have in the dragon hunts. No need to add a timer that will automatically kick someone without knowing what they need that time for.
Your solution to indiscriminately kick people who don't fit your personal box so far I don't see a whole lot of people rushing to agree with your idea dude so stop making it out like there's so many players who have an issue with this when even by looking at this thread its a minority.
Once again you paint the timer system as something without flaws failing to acknowledge the possible negative effects of an automatic timer except to say yeah bugs may happen so what
The timer system fix nothing
Premade groups is already the solution like it or lump it. There's literally no need for this as you can either premake a group or deal with the nature of public groups. Really not that difficult. The so called problem of people leaving an instance is not a problem except to a few people with 0 patience, because yeah you can just kick them and move on,instead you want get frustrated and hand out bans based on a unfair timer system whatever dud you don't want to accept the flaws of your idea that's your perogative, but it won't change the fact and yes it's a fact that the solution to this ops problem is to premake a group and ensure everyone is happy to run all content that might appear.
Red shirt at a blue shirt meeting huh yeah I'm preventing an echo chamber...so what this has nothing to do with anything
“Red shirt” - people who don't see pre-made groups as being effective against players that intentionally hold the RQ group up. “Blue shirt” - you and those who think pre-made groups are the solution.
Apparently hostile behavior that unreasonably holds a group up is a problem for the red shirts and that they don't see pre-made groups as sufficient, otherwise why create a thread(s) and voice opinions about it in the first place.
The red shirts are essentially here in this thread to devise a solution against said negative behavior while the blue shirts are apparently trying to prevent it by continually trying to force the red shirts to accept something that they rightfully do not deem as sufficient in getting rid of the issue they are facing in the first place. That's like going to an anime convention knowing that you despise anime, there's little room if any for you to be positive in that space, so why go? Just to try and disrupt what they have going on? Seems like it.
You are creating the echo chamber. You don't like the timer idea, you don't want players that intentionally hold the RQ group up to be actioned against, you don't like the idea of increasing rewards for longer content to entice players to run it, you claim you don't see the point in reading this user’s posts yet you keep responding STILL.
You have piled up "what ifs", assumptions and conjecture as if the fact that there are people that have a legitimate issue with particular hostile behaviors in regard to RQ's will somehow be trumped by your opinion(s).
What you actually are doing is helping develop the timer system suggestion further by allowing this user to address points that you bring up so thank you for that. People and hopefully developers that read this thread and continue to read this can get a better feel of the issues with particular hostile behaviors, how the timer system can work, as well as what it can accomplish so again, thank you for that.
Emergency- you should know the people you are premaking with so 9/10 your likely going to get prepared of an emergency
Players can't prepare for each and every kind of emergency in a pre-made group. The point is instead of having to wait and try to use a vote kick or someone who isn’t exhibiting hostile behavior having to take the leaver penalty at the BEGINNING of a RQ because someone went afk/disconnected, the suggested timer system would remove the player that is outside the instance/afk/disconnected when the timer expires if the group can get to a gather your party circle.
Also, the timer system could be set so that if 4 players (dungeons/skirmishes)/9 players (trials) are at the same campfire for a specific amount of time that it will act as a gather your party circle activating the timer and the afk/disconnected player would automatically be removed when the timer expires without someone having to use a vote kick. The system has multiple positive uses, not just against hostile behavior but also in the case of a situation where a player gets disconnected/forced to go afk for more than like 5 minutes though you are not trying to see ANY benefits with it...
You keep wanting to press that if your being held up that the person holding you up is being toxic or presenting negative behaviour when actually there just not doing what you want, it's so game breaking having to wait 15mins to kick someone huh, remove the 15min wait timer like they have in the dragon hunts. No need to add a timer that will automatically kick someone without knowing what they need that time for.
Frankly if 4/9 players are waiting in the "circle", one player shouldn't be able to hold the rest of the group up for pretty much ANY reason for an unreasonable amount of time nor should the group be faced with waiting 15 minutes before being able to spend a vote kick just to TRY and remove an afk/disconnected player or someone that exited the instance without leaving the group and is hanging out in another zone. If the vote kick fails then what? Exactly, they would be stuck, and the timer system would help prevent that from happening.
Players arguably for the most part don't want to wait 15 minutes on top of the amount of time it takes the queue to pop simply because a player is being hostile, afk, disconnected, etc. 15 minutes is a long time for someone with less time to play than others, of course you don’t seem to consider those players though.
Even if the 15 minute vote kick restriction is removed players would still have to spend a vote kick (4 hour cooldown) to try and get rid of the player when the timer system could do that for them and they can save their vote kick for a more appropriate situation later in the same content or in another queue instead of right at the beginning of one. You even said yourself that you sometimes RQ for hours, a person arguably and reasonably wouldn’t want to use a vote kick at the beginning of the RQ session.
Your solution to indiscriminately kick people who don't fit your personal box so far I don't see a whole lot of people rushing to agree with your idea dude so stop making it out like there's so many players who have an issue with this when even by looking at this thread its a minority.
Some people are really clever here, not able to think beyond their own point of views... The game is different for some that are shy and don't like making parties. Also, newer players aren't really active on the forums much so a lot of so called better players need to realize there is a player base out there beyond your comprehension. Not all ideas are great, but they come from a place where a problem exist. Don't tell them the solution already exists and its by making premade parties. Help find a solution or rather keep to yourself.
They said it right there. You don’t seem to want to see past your own PoV.
Trying to use the forums as a concrete basis of determining what the majority/entire player base wants, doesn’t want, likes and or dislikes is laughable. There are probably thousands upon thousands of players that have yet to come to the forums at all. Some people read forum threads and don’t respond whether they agree/disagree with posts, ideas, threads or not.
There are people here in this thread that like, agree, etc. posts from both sides so why are you trying to make it seem like there are so many people are against it and none for it…
4/9 players “in the box” (circle/instance) AND ready to run the content should be able to trump 1 player outside the box (circle/instance) after a reasonable amount of time.
Once again you paint the timer system as something without flaws failing to acknowledge the possible negative effects of an automatic timer except to say yeah bugs may happen so what
You haven’t really addressed possible negative effects that haven’t already been reasonably responded to by this user, nor has this user stated that the timer system is free from negative effects, although the intended effect of removing hostile players from the RQ group without having to wait 15 minutes/utilize a vote kick still remains at the forefront.
Players that make a reasonable effort to return to the instance/keep up with the group within a reasonable amount of time shouldn’t be negatively affected by the timer system at all, players that don’t make a reasonable effort, reasonably will.
Bugs – already addressed – the system may or may not have bugs.
Players not being able to keep up – already addressed – give the player a speed boost and prompt to reach the rest of the group in the circle.
Length of timer for dragon hunts – already addressed – give a reasonable amount of time to decide on mods (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes)
Player “needing to be afk/outside the instance for some time – already addressed – give them “x” minutes to return to the instance/enter the circle (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes).
Improving rewards – already addressed – if longer content isn’t rewarded better, players will probably continue to not prefer running the longer content.
Anything else?
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
You created the echo chamber orginaly and again just continue to argue for the sake of arguing.
You think you have addressed my concerns but you havnt, none of those will actually fix any of the issues that could arise from a time it's not worth my time pointing out the flaws and circular reson of your so called solutions frankly.l
As I said we clearly disagree you should just leave it at that you will save your self alot of time. You have made your point I have made mine now leave it up to the rest of the player base and the developers to decide...
I say this thread is nothing more than a pointless argument bait that will achieve nothing
And yep I say premade is the solution you say its not, your not going to convince me I'm not going to convince you iv stopped try now
So yeah just leave it upto the rest of the player base and devs.
This is a GAME, fun, not a job, a duty and a hard ordeal. I WON’T BE DOING content that I hate, no matter how much the devs want their bugged content to be played. Randomness in this case is just a joke. If you get the same content several times in a row, I think there are priorities set for dungeons/skirmishes that no normal person would do of their own accord. I can carry weak players, but to a certain extent. Don't expect me to patiently endure a 2 hour run with dps of 60-70k who, for example, in lomm can't kill a mimic.... My patience and nerves are simply limited. When I get a particular dungeon, a glance at the other players is enough for me to be able to judge if it can be done fairly painlessly. If not, I ask to be kicked out of the queue. The moment they kick me out, they gain an additional option: they can leave the queue without penalty or get another player. So no one loses out on this, on the contrary. If it's a problem because players think, as you do, that it's my duty to carry' them, then I wait passively. I'm not going to take the punishment just because people are idiots. Timer could work only and exclusively in the case when kicking would not generate any penalty.
Increasing the penalties for players, introducing timers or other additional difficulties, will only result in a return to the situation before random queues. New players will wait until the HAMSTER-dead in a dungeon queue, and when a pt is found, it will be made up entirely of players just like them. And then good luck, you will surely succeed.
The "issues" brought up in regard to the timer system were met with a resolution/response and then they were repeatedly responded to with the same issues as if they hadn't been addressed. Not acknowledging that responses to the issues were made doesn't make them go away. Simply stating that the provided resolutions/responses "won't fix" the issues without also providing supporting details, information, evidence, etc. to support the claims is NOT a reasonable argument. Also stating opinions and making gross claims without supporting information is also NOT a reasonable argument, especially against facts.
The claim that asking to be kicked does not disrupt the group is false. In most cases it takes 15 minute BEFORE a vote kick can be initiated, that's 15 minutes the group could have gotten a replacement and been well into the content had the pouty player simply taken the leaver penalty.
There are those that think it is fair or reasonable for one player to be able to force the rest of the group to wait 15 minutes to try and kick them while they stand around/roam outside of the instance just because they don't like the RQ content that pops, it is not, though they are entitled to their opinion no matter how unsubstantiated it is.
It's funny that some players tout that they are forced to RQ for RAD/rewards though don't keep that same energy and contradict themselves when it comes down to them not wanting to run the same content that they say they are forced to run in the first place...
There are some that disagree with the timer system, of course some would, ESPECIALLY if it will target them for their intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group because they do not like the content that pops, again, they are entitled to their opinion though that opinion is against the ToS being that it is preventing the other 4/9 other players from enjoying the game.
11.2 Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 12, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
... “stalk,” threaten or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to another; ... impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the Game or in Interactive Areas (defined below) in the Service or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS), “spamming” or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or our employees; ... take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
Does intentionally holding up a RQ group not go against any of the above, quoted in bold terms of service? It in fact does, so again, if you don't like the RQ content that pops, take the leaver penalty because if you don't you are clearly going against the ToS multiple times over by griefing the other 4/9 players.
So now things have shifted here. It is no longer just differing opinions, but now a particular side of opinions unambiguously going against the ToS... The suggested timer system (in its current iteration) would at most grant a 30 minute leaver penalty to players while breaking the terms could can result in a penalty far greater... Which is worse, a 30 minute queue timeout or a ban from being able to play the game at all? Something to think about.
No matter how players feel about RQ's if expressing your dislike about the content involves you going against the terms of service then prepare yourselves to at some point be actioned against by Cryptic.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
The "issues" brought up in regard to the timer system were met with a resolution/response and then they were repeatedly responded to with the same issues as if they hadn't been addressed. Not acknowledging that responses to the issues were made doesn't make them go away. Simply stating that the provided resolutions/responses "won't fix" the issues without also providing supporting details, information, evidence, etc. to support the claims is NOT a reasonable argument. Also stating opinions and making gross claims without supporting information is also NOT a reasonable argument, especially against facts.
The claim that asking to be kicked does not disrupt the group is false. In most cases it takes 15 minute BEFORE a vote kick can be initiated, that's 15 minutes the group could have gotten a replacement and been well into the content had the pouty player simply taken the leaver penalty.
There are those that think it is fair or reasonable for one player to be able to force the rest of the group to wait 15 minutes to try and kick them while they stand around/roam outside of the instance just because they don't like the RQ content that pops, it is not, though they are entitled to their opinion no matter how unsubstantiated it is.
It's funny that some players tout that they are forced to RQ for RAD/rewards though don't keep that same energy and contradict themselves when it comes down to them not wanting to run the same content that they say they are forced to run in the first place...
There are some that disagree with the timer system, of course some would, ESPECIALLY if it will target them for their intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group because they do not like the content that pops, again, they are entitled to their opinion though that opinion is against the ToS being that it is preventing the other 4/9 other players from enjoying the game.
11.2 Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 12, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
... “stalk,” threaten or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to another; ... impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the Game or in Interactive Areas (defined below) in the Service or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS), “spamming” or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or our employees; ... take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
Does intentionally holding up a RQ group not go against any of the above, quoted in bold terms of service? It in fact does, so again, if you don't like the RQ content that pops, take the leaver penalty because if you don't you are clearly going against the ToS multiple times over by griefing the other 4/9 players.
So now things have shifted here. It is no longer just differing opinions, but now a particular side of opinions unambiguously going against the ToS... The suggested timer system (in its current iteration) would at most grant a 30 minute leaver penalty to players while breaking the terms could can result in a penalty far greater... Which is worse, a 30 minute queue timeout or a ban from being able to play the game at all? Something to think about.
No matter how players feel about RQ's if expressing your dislike about the content involves you going against the terms of service then prepare yourselves to at some point be actioned against by Cryptic.
As you like to misquote I figured I will do the full quote of that section. Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 12, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
harm minors in any way; impersonate any person or entity, including any Gearbox officials, forum leaders, guides, hosts, employees or agents, or falsely state or otherwise misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity; forge headers or otherwise manipulate identifiers in order to disguise the origin of any message transmitted through the Website; upload, post, e-mail, transmit or otherwise make available any unsolicited or unauthorized advertising, promotional materials, “junk mail”, “spam”, “chain letters”, “pyramid schemes”, or any other form of solicitation; interfere with or disrupt the Service or servers or networks connected to the Service, or disobey any requirements, procedures, policies or regulations of networks connected to the Service; “stalk,” threaten or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to another; collect, store, post or otherwise disseminate any personal data about other users; impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the Game or in Interactive Areas (defined below) in the Service or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS), “spamming” or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or our employees; engage in, encourage, or promote any illegal activity, or any activity that violates these Terms or the Rules of Conduct; engage in any actions that defraud or attempt to defraud, scam or cheat others out of any items that have been earned through authorized game play; cheat or utilize unauthorized exploits in connection with the Games or the Service; using or exploiting any bugs, errors, or design flaws to obtain unauthorized access to the Service or to gain an unfair advantage over other players; trade, sell, auction or otherwise transfer any virtual items or goods of any nature outside the game; take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
Now here's how asking to be kicked or being afk may not go against these terms of service, it pretty simple, the service allows you to remove any player for what ever reason as long as the group agrees yes in most cases the service forces you to wait 15mins to be removed however as long as you don't prevent the removal of yourself in the attept of just making everything harder for everyone than your not going against service. It is not the players fault that a group has to wait 15mins to kick that is part of the service. If you read this thinking just the very action of asking to be kicked or waiting 15mins to kick someone is against terms of service than so is skipping cut scenes and skipping dialogue, I could also argue that if vote kicking can be done but you refuse to because you think someone should be forced to run content that they don't enjoy would than be you who is refusing to kick that is impeding another's ability to enjoy the game. Now iv sent in a ticket to get clarification due to the ambiguous wording of these terms. If you take the term of service at face value then if you say have a tank or healer who isn't good at their role but is enjoying the content even if they are dying and you decide you want to kick them to find someone else you may be impeding another players enjoyment of the game. However you twist things anyone can claim another person is preventing them enjoying the game.
Dude I pointed out the flaws with your timer multiple times, you think you addressed the issues in your mind but you havn't instead you have tried to brush them under carpet. And yeah I see no reason to continue repeating and pointing the flaws of your argument. So move on
This thread has been up for quite a while now and not a single moderator or dev have come here to clarify anything, could be wrong but I'm assuming this is because they are not interested in this at all and so I doubt there is any violations of terms of service, again cryptic employees are welcome to chime in and I'm currently awaiting a response to aticket to get clarification on the ambiguous wording of the terms of service.
They usually don’t comment more than “Thanks for the info, will bring it up at next meeting” and variations there of.
Something in-depth like this gets released with a new Mod with lots of polish and fan fare.
That's why have put in support ticket aswell to see if i can get any clarification to the ambiguity of the terms of service. Will let everyone know if I get a response and ofcourse will post response regardless of what it says even if I am wrong
As you like to misquote I figured I will do the full quote of that section.
The full text (which anyone can look up for themselves) was not included to save space as well as a lot of the text did not pertain to the topic.
Asking to be kicked is one thing. Asking to be kicked and the rest of the group having to in most cases wait 15 minutes to try and do so and also cannot proceed with the content because the player wanting to be kicked is just standing there/exits the instance is something else. If a player asks to be kicked and in the meantime runs the content with the group then is kicked later is different as well because they were not holding up the group.
Dude I pointed out the flaws with your timer multiple times, you think you addressed the issues in your mind but you havn't instead you have tried to brush them under carpet. And yeah I see no reason to continue repeating and pointing the flaws of your argument.
What was seen to been an issue/flaw yes was pointed out, though the issues/flaws were also responded to then ignored and treated as if they were not made at all.
Bugs – already addressed – the system may or may not have bugs.
Players not being able to keep up – already addressed – give the player a speed boost and prompt to reach the rest of the group in the circle.
Length of timer for dragon hunts – already addressed – give a reasonable amount of time to decide on mods (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes)
Player “needing to be afk/outside the instance for some time – already addressed – give them “x” minutes to return to the instance/enter the circle (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes).
Improving rewards – already addressed – if longer content isn’t rewarded better, players will probably continue to not prefer running the longer content.
Anything else?
The above quote contained the "issues"/flaws brought up in regard to the timer system as well as the response/resolution to them and also asked the question of "anything else?", which was responded to with:
You think you have addressed my concerns but you havnt, none of those will actually fix any of the issues that could arise from a time it's not worth my time pointing out the flaws and circular reson of your so called solutions frankly.l
Even though the responses were read (apparently), the responses to the issues/flaws were simply ignored, which is fine. The responses were also pointed out to have been ignored. What isn't fine is choosing not to acknowledge the responses then turning around and stating that the issues/flaws were not addressed/simply won't fix the issues.
If the issues/flaws are felt to not have been addressed sufficiently then do provide how they are not sufficient, by not doing so it hurts the argument.
This thread has been up for quite a while now and not a single moderator or dev have come here to clarify anything, could be wrong but I'm assuming this is because they are not interested in this at all and so I doubt there is any violations of terms of service, again cryptic employees are welcome to chime in
There are literally hundreds of threads both short and long, both new and old that do not have a moderator or developer response within them, it simply means that they haven't responded, nothing more, nothing less.
Lack of a response means little to nothing as far as trying to use the lack of a response to prove something one way or another.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
As you like to misquote I figured I will do the full quote of that section.
The full text (which anyone can look up for themselves) was not included to save space as well as a lot of the text did not pertain to the topic.
Asking to be kicked is one thing. Asking to be kicked and the rest of the group having to in most cases wait 15 minutes to try and do so and also cannot proceed with the content because the player wanting to be kicked is just standing there/exits the instance is something else. If a player asks to be kicked and in the meantime runs the content with the group then is kicked later is different as well because they were not holding up the group.
Dude I pointed out the flaws with your timer multiple times, you think you addressed the issues in your mind but you havn't instead you have tried to brush them under carpet. And yeah I see no reason to continue repeating and pointing the flaws of your argument.
What was seen to been an issue/flaw yes was pointed out, though the issues/flaws were also responded to then ignored and treated as if they were not made at all.
Bugs – already addressed – the system may or may not have bugs.
Players not being able to keep up – already addressed – give the player a speed boost and prompt to reach the rest of the group in the circle.
Length of timer for dragon hunts – already addressed – give a reasonable amount of time to decide on mods (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes)
Player “needing to be afk/outside the instance for some time – already addressed – give them “x” minutes to return to the instance/enter the circle (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes).
Improving rewards – already addressed – if longer content isn’t rewarded better, players will probably continue to not prefer running the longer content.
Anything else?
The above quote contained the "issues"/flaws brought up in regard to the timer system as well as the response/resolution to them and also asked the question of "anything else?", which was responded to with:
You think you have addressed my concerns but you havnt, none of those will actually fix any of the issues that could arise from a time it's not worth my time pointing out the flaws and circular reson of your so called solutions frankly.l
Even though the responses were read (apparently), the responses to the issues/flaws were simply ignored, which is fine. The responses were also pointed out to have been ignored. What isn't fine is choosing not to acknowledge the responses then turning around and stating that the issues/flaws were not addressed/simply won't fix the issues.
If the issues/flaws are felt to not have been addressed sufficiently then do provide how they are not sufficient, by not doing so it hurts the argument.
This thread has been up for quite a while now and not a single moderator or dev have come here to clarify anything, could be wrong but I'm assuming this is because they are not interested in this at all and so I doubt there is any violations of terms of service, again cryptic employees are welcome to chime in
There are literally hundreds of threads both short and long, both new and old that do not have a moderator or developer response within them, it simply means that they haven't responded, nothing more, nothing less.
Lack of a response means little to nothing as far as trying to use the lack of a response to prove something one way or another.
1 bugs- nothing is addressed by just saying bugs are thingg that may or may not get fixed 2 speed boost- this may not work for any number of reasons ranging from handicaps and mental health to need to change a babies nappy to connection issues 3 it can take longer than 5 mins ir can take longer than 15mins to come to an agreement, I'm not joking iv literally been sat arguing about what is better limited conditioning or Denied, resilience vs tricky reversal and easily irritated vs rotating chaos or Ferocity vs any other easy/medium mods and even arguing about the pointlessness of running the dragons without any modifiers. A timer will only cause unfair penalties in this situation. 4 this is where connection issues may result in unfair penalties, as everyone has different connection status, for example some people have practically no loading screen time while others it can feel like an age, moreover there is the potential of double timer issues for example you leave instance to go grab something, timer starts, rest of team continu to the boss and manage to get to it before you have done everything you needed to do and a second timer begins you head back to the instance but due to loading times you may not make it the the circle intime at which point you receive a penalty even though you are just a few steps away when the timer reaches 0. 5 improving rewards is only inticing until the AH is flooded with said reward at which point it may be more efficient to j7st buy said reward from another player the reward your looking for drops in value so much that the time taken is no longer inticing, improving rewards also hurts the player economy of the long term so this isn't a fix for anything really
Personally I think the 15min wait to kick is already a fair system and possibly more fair than a timer tied to each person, at least with the vote system people can vote no if they know the person is coming back and is not intentionally holding others up. Where as timer once it hits 0 if your not where others want you to be not only are you getting kicked your going to recieve a penalty no matter what.
I have said pretty much all of this in multiple different comments maybe not as detailed as here but I have acknowledged them, them except for point number 4, and tbh I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, these issue also do not represent every possible issue a timer may cause but they should adequate to show the flaws of the timer system
Again I responded to someone, I'm fully aware of how little cryptic employees engage with the posts on 5his forum which is why as I said I have sent in a support ticket to get clarification about the ambiguous nature if the terms of services and yes as stated I promise to be 100% transparent with everyone here If and when I receive a response from them
This one literally just came to my head, lets say one joins a trial they have never done before and they ask someone to explain the mechanics before stepping in the circle, an no one is willing to step out if the circle or there's even just 1 person or will not break the circle for the time it takes to explain given mechanics, a timer system may risk penalising someone for simple trying to spend time learning about the mechanics.in some cases multiple people mat fall victim to this as some might be willing to break the circle for a period but it will only take 1 person keep the circle up and thus keep the timer ticking
1 bugs- nothing is addressed by just saying bugs are thingg that may or may not get fixed
1 Bugs - May or may not happen with introducing the timer system in the first place so that issue/flaw is simply speculation. Possible bugs arguably is hardly a reason for the developers to simply not consider such a system.
Again, the possibility of bugs, even when speculated by players multiple times over here on the forums, does not and has not essentially prevented the developers from moving forward with ANY update since Neverwinter was first released, if that was the case and as previously mentioned, the game would still be on v1.0...
2 speed boost- this may not work for any number of reasons ranging from handicaps and mental health to need to change a babies nappy to connection issues
2 Speed boost - if a player can't make it within 5 minutes (which is quite some time to even handle afk things/travel through content) then they are removed from the group by the system.
One player having afk/connectivity issues, etc. simply shouldn't be able to continually hold up the rest of the group that is not having those issues and are ready to go. On top of that, if a player can't keep up with the group, especially a tank or healer and depending on the content, the rest of the group may not be able to get through the mobs in the first place to get to the next area anyway, the group should/will be within close proximity being that they cannot proceed forward and won't be able to activate the timer in the first pace. If it is a DPS that can't keep up then they are not really contributing to the group correct?
If a player has mental health issue/is handicapped they can submit the proper documentation as proof of such and their account can be flagged to "slightly" increase any timers that the system would impose. Players in a RQ group with a person with a flagged account can receive a bonus similar to the new player bonus for possibly have to wait longer to accommodate said player.
3 it can take longer than 5 mins ir can take longer than 15mins to come to an agreement
3 Dragon hunt agreements - if it takes longer than 5 minutes to reach an agreement then the player(s) outside the circle are removed from the group.
In a public dragon hunt group players don't have to come to an agreement on mods, it can help though is not necessary. Everyone can simply put up whatever mods they have and the dragon hunt system will randomly choose 2-3, it's a public group, fair enough. Even if an agreement is made about mods in a public OR private group, that will not stop someone from breaking said agreement and just anonymously putting up whatever mod(s) they want because the dragon hunt system does not let the group know who put up what mod(s).
In regard to dragon hunts, pre-made groups can help players get parts they want though it still not guaranteed because again, players can put up whatever mods they want and remain anonymous.
4 this is where connection issues may result in unfair penalties, as everyone has different connection status, for example some people have practically no loading screen time while others it can feel like an age
4 Connection issues/loading times - the timer(s) can be set to slightly pause while a character is loading. Slightly to prevent a player from simply and continually exiting/entering the instance to try and keep the timer paused indefinitely.
RQ groups can also get a few "vote to extend timer" votes where if the vote passes the timer is extended for the player not in the instance/outside the circle. They would be available immediately from the start. Also each player can get a "increase timer" option where for whatever reason they can extend a timer for themselves.
5 improving rewards is only inticing until the AH is flooded with said reward at which point it may be more efficient to j7st buy said reward from another player the reward your looking for drops in value so much that the time taken is no longer inticing, improving rewards also hurts the player economy of the long term so this isn't a fix for anything really
5 Increasing rewards - RP was initially addressed as an example and already of pretty low trade house value so increasing RP from RQ content would do what, make it go lower? Companion/Mount upgrade token rewards can be increased for longer content, can't sell those so increasing their rates/amounts arguably won't affect the trade house prices. Trade bar rewards can be increased as well for longer content, increased trade bar rewards arguably won't affect the market no more than the trade bar merchant sales do. High tier rewards don't have to be increased though that can still be an option. There are events where high tier rewards have their drop rates increased, what about those?
lets say one joins a trial they have never done before and they ask someone to explain the mechanics before stepping in the circle ... a timer system may risk penalising someone for simple trying to spend time learning about the mechanics.
For clarification purposes, once the circle timer is activated (by the majority of the group entering it) it would not stop/reset even if all players left the circle, meaning that if the timer is activated and ALL players leave it, when the timer reaches zero they ALL get removed from the group and would receive the leaver penalty. It would have to work like that in order to help prevent abuse.
*6 Inexperienced player in a trial - When a player that hasn't been in a particular trial/content before enters the content EVERYONE gets a message that there is a new player in the instance and the group "should" take that into consideration.
If the timer is activated the new player would have about 5 minutes for someone to explain the mechanics to them and or the group can attempt the trial anyway. If the group fails, the majority of the group can then stand outside the circle so that the timer will not start and the mechanics can be explained without the rush.
I have said pretty much all of this in multiple different comments maybe not as detailed as here but I have acknowledged them, them except for point number 4, and tbh I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, these issue also do not represent every possible issue a timer may cause but they should adequate to show the flaws of the timer system
Have read and re-read your posts multiple times over to make sure a little as possible was missed before giving various responses. Besides mentioning possible bugs and "unfair punishments", pretty much everything else was slightly mentioned here and there though not detailed.
Supposed or perceived flaws, especially when they are not detailed, do not simply discredit a suggestion. "oh there may be bugs", "oh people will be unfairly punished", "oh what about emergencies", etc., etc. are simple objections to a more thoroughly detailed and suggested system/change.
That's like person A going to person B with a detailed business plan and person C saying "the font it was printed in is ugly, that's a bad business plan". You see how ridiculous that sounds? If you are going to reasonably object to something, anything, then come with it rather than thinking simple objections are going to hold substantial weight against it.
This user (and others as well) is beyond tired of being held up in RQ's by pissy players that don't want to take the leaver penalty for content they signed up for yet refuse to reasonably participate in. This user is going to continue to develop and polish the suggested timer system AND defend it. If you are against the timer system and are thinking about making a post it is being suggested that bring your BEST objections/arguments AND be prepared to defend them because counter arguments will more than likely be made.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
1 bugs- nothing is addressed by just saying bugs are thingg that may or may not get fixed
1 Bugs - May or may not happen with introducing the timer system in the first place so that issue/flaw is simply speculation. Possible bugs arguably is hardly a reason for the developers to simply not consider such a system.
Again, the possibility of bugs, even when speculated by players multiple times over here on the forums, does not and has not essentially prevented the developers from moving forward with ANY update since Neverwinter was first released, if that was the case and as previously mentioned, the game would still be on v1.0...
2 speed boost- this may not work for any number of reasons ranging from handicaps and mental health to need to change a babies nappy to connection issues
2 Speed boost - if a player can't make it within 5 minutes (which is quite some time to even handle afk things/travel through content) then they are removed from the group by the system.
One player having afk/connectivity issues, etc. simply shouldn't be able to continually hold up the rest of the group that is not having those issues and are ready to go. On top of that, if a player can't keep up with the group, especially a tank or healer and depending on the content, the rest of the group may not be able to get through the mobs in the first place to get to the next area anyway, the group should/will be within close proximity being that they cannot proceed forward and won't be able to activate the timer in the first pace. If it is a DPS that can't keep up then they are not really contributing to the group correct?
If a player has mental health issue/is handicapped they can submit the proper documentation as proof of such and their account can be flagged to "slightly" increase any timers that the system would impose. Players in a RQ group with a person with a flagged account can receive a bonus similar to the new player bonus for possibly have to wait longer to accommodate said player.
3 it can take longer than 5 mins ir can take longer than 15mins to come to an agreement
3 Dragon hunt agreements - if it takes longer than 5 minutes to reach an agreement then the player(s) outside the circle are removed from the group.
In a public dragon hunt group players don't have to come to an agreement on mods, it can help though is not necessary. Everyone can simply put up whatever mods they have and the dragon hunt system will randomly choose 2-3, it's a public group, fair enough. Even if an agreement is made about mods in a public OR private group, that will not stop someone from breaking said agreement and just anonymously putting up whatever mod(s) they want because the dragon hunt system does not let the group know who put up what mod(s).
In regard to dragon hunts, pre-made groups can help players get parts they want though it still not guaranteed because again, players can put up whatever mods they want and remain anonymous.
4 this is where connection issues may result in unfair penalties, as everyone has different connection status, for example some people have practically no loading screen time while others it can feel like an age
4 Connection issues/loading times - the timer(s) can be set to slightly pause while a character is loading. Slightly to prevent a player from simply and continually exiting/entering the instance to try and keep the timer paused indefinitely.
RQ groups can also get a few "vote to extend timer" votes where if the vote passes the timer is extended for the player not in the instance/outside the circle. They would be available immediately from the start. Also each player can get a "increase timer" option where for whatever reason they can extend a timer for themselves.
5 improving rewards is only inticing until the AH is flooded with said reward at which point it may be more efficient to j7st buy said reward from another player the reward your looking for drops in value so much that the time taken is no longer inticing, improving rewards also hurts the player economy of the long term so this isn't a fix for anything really
5 Increasing rewards - RP was initially addressed as an example and already of pretty low trade house value so increasing RP from RQ content would do what, make it go lower? Companion/Mount upgrade token rewards can be increased for longer content, can't sell those so increasing their rates/amounts arguably won't affect the trade house prices. Trade bar rewards can be increased as well for longer content, increased trade bar rewards arguably won't affect the market no more than the trade bar merchant sales do. High tier rewards don't have to be increased though that can still be an option. There are events where high tier rewards have their drop rates increased, what about those?
lets say one joins a trial they have never done before and they ask someone to explain the mechanics before stepping in the circle ... a timer system may risk penalising someone for simple trying to spend time learning about the mechanics.
For clarification purposes, once the circle timer is activated (by the majority of the group entering it) it would not stop/reset even if all players left the circle, meaning that if the timer is activated and ALL players leave it, when the timer reaches zero they ALL get removed from the group and would receive the leaver penalty. It would have to work like that in order to help prevent abuse.
*6 Inexperienced player in a trial - When a player that hasn't been in a particular trial/content before enters the content EVERYONE gets a message that there is a new player in the instance and the group "should" take that into consideration.
If the timer is activated the new player would have about 5 minutes for someone to explain the mechanics to them and or the group can attempt the trial anyway. If the group fails, the majority of the group can then stand outside the circle so that the timer will not start and the mechanics can be explained without the rush.
I have said pretty much all of this in multiple different comments maybe not as detailed as here but I have acknowledged them, them except for point number 4, and tbh I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, these issue also do not represent every possible issue a timer may cause but they should adequate to show the flaws of the timer system
Have read and re-read your posts multiple times over to make sure a little as possible was missed before giving various responses. Besides mentioning possible bugs and "unfair punishments", pretty much everything else was slightly mentioned here and there though not detailed.
Supposed or perceived flaws, especially when they are not detailed, do not simply discredit a suggestion. "oh there may be bugs", "oh people will be unfairly punished", "oh what about emergencies", etc., etc. are simple objections to a more thoroughly detailed and suggested system/change.
That's like person A going to person B with a detailed business plan and person C saying "the font it was printed in is ugly, that's a bad business plan". You see how ridiculous that sounds? If you are going to reasonably object to something, anything, then come with it rather than thinking simple objections are going to hold substantial weight against it.
This user (and others as well) is beyond tired of being held up in RQ's by pissy players that don't want to take the leaver penalty for content they signed up for yet refuse to reasonably participate in. This user is going to continue to develop and polish the suggested timer system AND defend it. If you are against the timer system and are thinking about making a post it is being suggested that bring your BEST objections/arguments AND be prepared to defend them because counter arguments will more than likely be made.
This is why we are both wasting our time here. We're never going to get anywhere with this because your so set that a timer is a good idea that your going to come up with anything that you can to defend and justify it just as I will to point out the flaws and we are left at an impass until the actual developers chime in.
1 there bugs than there is game breaking bugs, it's the game breaking bugs that i worry about.
2. It's doesn't matter what the role is as thats like saying its OK for this person but not OK for this other person sorry but yes if there's a automatic timer that has no form of adjustments to prevent unfair penalties for poor connection issues than this should be a big red flag for an idea you won't accept it because your so set in your mind that the timer will work for what you want it work for.
3. And this is proving my point that a timer system is actually detrimental. Here's an example I wrnt into a public ancient black dragon, I inspected everyone to get gunge of how Ithey might perform, the healer appeared to be underwhelming and the dps could also have had some better gear, In that time a dps activates the mod table, I say the healer may struggle to keep us all alive with this dragon which the healer agrees with, so I say I'm willing to try but only if no mods are set, people were agreeing but didn't realise they had to step out the circle first so that we unselected the mod table, they did not step out of circle until I said you need to step out of the circle if you agree, this took longer than 5mins at which you would argue that it would be right for me to take a ban. When actually I'm trying to communicate and come to an agreement. Again big red flag for such a system. Another example I went into a dragon with a healer that would do no healing so I vote to kick even saying that I have played with healer multiple times and they NEVER heal anyone so I initiate a vote but everyone says no so under you ideal If i now refuse to carry on I will need to take a ban because no I am not here to carry others who do nor know or are not willing to do their job. Again 5min timer is not enough. Now of course premade groups can be the answer to all these problems just as it can be the answer to the OP you won't accept this but will still advise it when you think it suits your argument, no premade isn't guaranteed no issues but it's less likely to have the same issues.People shouldn't feel rushed to get into content and people shouldn't receive unfair penalties due to disagreements with a group. But again you think they should be so impass. (By the completed that black dragon and yes took a ban for the other dragon with the healer that doesn't heal)
4. Here's where you start to add more things that the developers will have to code in alongside the timer system and monitor to ensure its working properly and to ensure all these 'solutions' for the timer issue exist. Jusr more unnecessary headaches for the devs, Good luck with that though I'm pretty sure there will see it has the current system is already adequate but really good luck convincing the devs to implement all these new things just because some people don't like waiting 15mins
5 I do not see what your point is here or you are not seeing mine not sure which.
6 the key word here is 'should' and 'can'. If you can convince the devs to add yet another system tied to this timer you are still relying on other players to do the right thing otherwise someone will receive an unfair penalty again big red flag to a flawed system.
Whether your annoyed about being held up by others or not, unfair penalties are unfair and drive people away, being forced to wait 15mins isn't down to the players but down to the system the devs will have a good reason why its 15min wait time and preventing abuse of the system will probably be one of the reasons as well as why there is a 4 hour cooldown for intiating said voting, which I think should be reduced by half, now I'm not going to pretend I know all the reasons why the developers have chosen the system that they have but the more and more i hear about this timer idea the more and more I feel its so don't have to deal with the headache of the auto timer, I'm sure this isn't the case but as I said the more I think about this the more I think the current system is adequate, not because it allows people to go afk and wait to be k8ckef but because it actually seems to address many of my fears of that your timer idea gives me.
P.S I can't be bothered to run through correct the spelling mistakes I'm on damn phone with the tiniest touch screen and everything I edit i risk deleting and loosing my entire comment so yeah hopefully you can work it out
This is why we are both wasting our time here. We're never going to get anywhere with this because your so set that a timer is a good idea that your going to come up with anything that you can to defend and justify it just as I will to point out the flaws and we are left at an impass until the actual developers chime in.
Providing a reasonable resolution and or a reasonable justification to an expressed potential issue of a suggestion is not just coming up with anything, it's part of the process. Both sides of a suggestion have the right to reasonably defend their views, opinions, etc. and to reasonably challenge the views, opinions, etc. of the other side, again, it's all part of the process.
You and others are being encouraged to point out potential flaws SPECIFIC to the timer system so that various parts of it that may not have been considered can be explored, it's called working out the kinks. The more an idea is explored in a thread the less guesswork the developers have to make about it's purpose, function, pros, cons, etc. which leaves them more room for consideration of working on it.
1 there bugs than there is game breaking bugs, it's the game breaking bugs that i worry about.
Potential for bug is NOT specific to the suggested timer system. Potential for bugs is general and applicable to ANY suggestion, idea and or update so there's really no reason to bring it up. Again, if the potential for bugs was the sole determining factor for considering implementing ANY change, the game would still be on v1.0 because the potential for bugs will essentially ALWAYS be there. Moving along.
2. It's doesn't matter what the role is as thats like saying its OK for this person but not OK for this other person sorry but yes if there's a automatic timer that has no form of adjustments to prevent unfair penalties for poor connection issues than this should be a big red flag for an idea you won't accept it because your so set in your mind that the timer will work for what you want it work for.
Role does matter.
Depending on the content a group may or may not be able to get away with not having a DPS, Tank or Healer for a while.
There are forms of adjustments as previously mentioned:
If a player has mental health issue/is handicapped they can submit the proper documentation as proof of such and their account can be flagged to "slightly" increase any timers that the system would impose. Players in a RQ group with a person with a flagged account can receive a bonus similar to the new player bonus for possibly have to wait longer to accommodate said player.
4 Connection issues/loading times - the timer(s) can be set to slightly pause while a character is loading. Slightly to prevent a player from simply and continually exiting/entering the instance to try and keep the timer paused indefinitely.
RQ groups can also get a few "vote to extend timer" votes where if the vote passes the timer is extended for the player not in the instance/outside the circle and they would be available immediately from the start. Also each player can get a "increase timer" option where for whatever reason they can extend a timer for themselves.
Did you not see these adjustments?
All of the above are adjustments that can be made on the fly rather than simply having static timers, including adjustments for connection issues/loading times.
3. And this is proving my point that a timer system is actually detrimental.
Here's an example I wrnt into a public ancient black dragon, I inspected everyone to get gunge of how Ithey might perform, the healer appeared to be underwhelming and the dps could also have had some better gear, In that time a dps activates the mod table, I say the healer may struggle to keep us all alive with this dragon which the healer agrees with, so I say I'm willing to try but only if no mods are set, people were agreeing but didn't realise they had to step out the circle first so that we unselected the mod table, they did not step out of circle until I said you need to step out of the circle if you agree, this took longer than 5mins at which you would argue that it would be right for me to take a ban. When actually I'm trying to communicate and come to an agreement. Again big red flag for such a system. Another example I went into a dragon with a healer that would do no healing so I vote to kick even saying that I have played with healer multiple times and they NEVER heal anyone so I initiate a vote but everyone says no so under you ideal If i now refuse to carry on I will need to take a ban because no I am not here to carry others who do nor know or are not willing to do their job. Again 5min timer is not enough. Now of course premade groups can be the answer to all these problems just as it can be the answer to the OP you won't accept this but will still advise it when you think it suits your argument, no premade isn't guaranteed no issues but it's less likely to have the same issues.People shouldn't feel rushed to get into content and people shouldn't receive unfair penalties due to disagreements with a group. But again you think they should be so impass. (By the completed that black dragon and yes took a ban for the other dragon with the healer that doesn't heal)
For clarification purposes: The timer would NOT start simply when one person activates the mod table, the dragon table or the boss door. The timer would start when the MAJORITY of the group enters the circle, until then, no timer.
For clarification purposes: The timer system would NOT apply in private queue groups (unless there was an option/checkbox for the private queue leader to select so that it would apply).
If the majority of the group wants to proceed with the content, the minority reasonably shouldn't simply be able to hold them up indefinitely. And again, the previously quoted timer adjustments would apply in this kind of situation which can extend the timer past 5 minutes.
4. Here's where you start to add more things that the developers will have to code in alongside the timer system and monitor to ensure its working properly and to ensure all these 'solutions' for the timer issue exist.
Cooldown timers and the vote system literally ALREADY exists in the game. The vote to extend timer would function just like vote to kick with the difference being instead of removing a player from the group if the vote passes, it would add "x" amount of time to a timer.
The developers literally are faced with coding things alongside the updates they come up with themselves as well as monitoring the changes ON THE PREVIEW SERVER to ensure they are working properly... It's surprising that various updates on the preview server that functioned badly were still pushed out the live servers...
Again, having to code things for a change/update are NOT specific to the timer system. Moving along.
5 I do not see what your point is here or you are not seeing mine not sure which.
You are concerned about increased rewards reducing the trade house value of reward items correct?
The suggested reward increases have been for:
- RP (already of low trade house value). - Companion/Mount Upgrade Tokens from the chests (NOT tradable so they have little to no effect on the price of the ones on the trade house). - Trade Bars from the chests (NOT tradable, only the items purchased with them are. There are trade bar discount events so increasing trade bar rewards from chests slightly is not going to effect prices no more than the discount event does).
Point being item rewards that can't be sold on the trade house arguably have little to no effect on the value of trade house items.
6 the key word here is 'should' and 'can'. If you can convince the devs to add yet another system tied to this timer you are still relying on other players to do the right thing otherwise someone will receive an unfair penalty again big red flag to a flawed system.
There is no other system to add other than the timer itself...
Currently if all players in a trial do not enter the circle (the one that appears when someone activates the gate), the content does not start anyway. With the timer system as long as the majority of the trial group (6 players) does not enter the circle, the timer will NOT start, giving time for the mechanics to be explained to the new player.
If the group tries the trial and fails with the new player the first time around, as things currently work (without the timer system), it takes only one person to stand outside of the circle for there to be time for the mechanics to explained to the new player.
When there's a message that a new player is in the instance it's a good idea to give a brief explanation of mechanics (have personally seen this happen multiple times), if not, don't expect the new player to know what to do.
Whether your annoyed about being held up by others or not, unfair penalties are unfair and drive people away
One player intentionally holding the rest of the group up when they voluntarily joined the RQ instead of not taking the leaver penalty is unfair to someone. Continually being held up by other players in RQ's is unfair to someone and can drive people away. XYZ can drive people away/be unfair, someone somewhere is going to feel that a specific change(s) is unfair/will drive people away.
The potential to drive people away/be unfair to someone is NOT specific to the timer system. Moving along.
P.S. your efforts, especially typing on a phone are respected and appreciated and misspellings are fine.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
This is why we are both wasting our time here. We're never going to get anywhere with this because your so set that a timer is a good idea that your going to come up with anything that you can to defend and justify it just as I will to point out the flaws and we are left at an impass until the actual developers chime in.
Providing a reasonable resolution and or a reasonable justification to an expressed potential issue of a suggestion is not just coming up with anything, it's part of the process. Both sides of a suggestion have the right to reasonably defend their views, opinions, etc. and to reasonably challenge the views, opinions, etc. of the other side, again, it's all part of the process.
You and others are being encouraged to point out potential flaws SPECIFIC to the timer system so that various parts of it that may not have been considered can be explored, it's called working out the kinks. The more an idea is explored in a thread the less guesswork the developers have to make about it's purpose, function, pros, cons, etc. which leaves them more room for consideration of working on it.
1 there bugs than there is game breaking bugs, it's the game breaking bugs that i worry about.
Potential for bug is NOT specific to the suggested timer system. Potential for bugs is general and applicable to ANY suggestion, idea and or update so there's really no reason to bring it up. Again, if the potential for bugs was the sole determining factor for considering implementing ANY change, the game would still be on v1.0 because the potential for bugs will essentially ALWAYS be there. Moving along.
2. It's doesn't matter what the role is as thats like saying its OK for this person but not OK for this other person sorry but yes if there's a automatic timer that has no form of adjustments to prevent unfair penalties for poor connection issues than this should be a big red flag for an idea you won't accept it because your so set in your mind that the timer will work for what you want it work for.
Role does matter.
Depending on the content a group may or may not be able to get away with not having a DPS, Tank or Healer for a while.
There are forms of adjustments as previously mentioned:
If a player has mental health issue/is handicapped they can submit the proper documentation as proof of such and their account can be flagged to "slightly" increase any timers that the system would impose. Players in a RQ group with a person with a flagged account can receive a bonus similar to the new player bonus for possibly have to wait longer to accommodate said player.
4 Connection issues/loading times - the timer(s) can be set to slightly pause while a character is loading. Slightly to prevent a player from simply and continually exiting/entering the instance to try and keep the timer paused indefinitely.
RQ groups can also get a few "vote to extend timer" votes where if the vote passes the timer is extended for the player not in the instance/outside the circle and they would be available immediately from the start. Also each player can get a "increase timer" option where for whatever reason they can extend a timer for themselves.
Did you not see these adjustments?
All of the above are adjustments that can be made on the fly rather than simply having static timers, including adjustments for connection issues/loading times.
3. And this is proving my point that a timer system is actually detrimental.
Here's an example I wrnt into a public ancient black dragon, I inspected everyone to get gunge of how Ithey might perform, the healer appeared to be underwhelming and the dps could also have had some better gear, In that time a dps activates the mod table, I say the healer may struggle to keep us all alive with this dragon which the healer agrees with, so I say I'm willing to try but only if no mods are set, people were agreeing but didn't realise they had to step out the circle first so that we unselected the mod table, they did not step out of circle until I said you need to step out of the circle if you agree, this took longer than 5mins at which you would argue that it would be right for me to take a ban. When actually I'm trying to communicate and come to an agreement. Again big red flag for such a system. Another example I went into a dragon with a healer that would do no healing so I vote to kick even saying that I have played with healer multiple times and they NEVER heal anyone so I initiate a vote but everyone says no so under you ideal If i now refuse to carry on I will need to take a ban because no I am not here to carry others who do nor know or are not willing to do their job. Again 5min timer is not enough. Now of course premade groups can be the answer to all these problems just as it can be the answer to the OP you won't accept this but will still advise it when you think it suits your argument, no premade isn't guaranteed no issues but it's less likely to have the same issues.People shouldn't feel rushed to get into content and people shouldn't receive unfair penalties due to disagreements with a group. But again you think they should be so impass. (By the completed that black dragon and yes took a ban for the other dragon with the healer that doesn't heal)
For clarification purposes: The timer would NOT start simply when one person activates the mod table, the dragon table or the boss door. The timer would start when the MAJORITY of the group enters the circle, until then, no timer.
For clarification purposes: The timer system would NOT apply in private queue groups (unless there was an option/checkbox for the private queue leader to select so that it would apply).
If the majority of the group wants to proceed with the content, the minority reasonably shouldn't simply be able to hold them up indefinitely. And again, the previously quoted timer adjustments would apply in this kind of situation which can extend the timer past 5 minutes.
4. Here's where you start to add more things that the developers will have to code in alongside the timer system and monitor to ensure its working properly and to ensure all these 'solutions' for the timer issue exist.
Cooldown timers and the vote system literally ALREADY exists in the game. The vote to extend timer would function just like vote to kick with the difference being instead of removing a player from the group if the vote passes, it would add "x" amount of time to a timer.
The developers literally are faced with coding things alongside the updates they come up with themselves as well as monitoring the changes ON THE PREVIEW SERVER to ensure they are working properly... It's surprising that various updates on the preview server that functioned badly were still pushed out the live servers...
Again, having to code things for a change/update are NOT specific to the timer system. Moving along.
5 I do not see what your point is here or you are not seeing mine not sure which.
You are concerned about increased rewards reducing the trade house value of reward items correct?
The suggested reward increases have been for:
- RP (already of low trade house value). - Companion/Mount Upgrade Tokens from the chests (NOT tradable so they have little to no effect on the price of the ones on the trade house). - Trade Bars from the chests (NOT tradable, only the items purchased with them are. There are trade bar discount events so increasing trade bar rewards from chests slightly is not going to effect prices no more than the discount event does).
Point being item rewards that can't be sold on the trade house arguably have little to no effect on the value of trade house items.
6 the key word here is 'should' and 'can'. If you can convince the devs to add yet another system tied to this timer you are still relying on other players to do the right thing otherwise someone will receive an unfair penalty again big red flag to a flawed system.
There is no other system to add other than the timer itself...
Currently if all players in a trial do not enter the circle (the one that appears when someone activates the gate), the content does not start anyway. With the timer system as long as the majority of the trial group (6 players) does not enter the circle, the timer will NOT start, giving time for the mechanics to be explained to the new player.
If the group tries the trial and fails with the new player the first time around, as things currently work (without the timer system), it takes only one person to stand outside of the circle for there to be time for the mechanics to explained to the new player.
When there's a message that a new player is in the instance it's a good idea to give a brief explanation of mechanics (have personally seen this happen multiple times), if not, don't expect the new player to know what to do.
Whether your annoyed about being held up by others or not, unfair penalties are unfair and drive people away
One player intentionally holding the rest of the group up when they voluntarily joined the RQ instead of not taking the leaver penalty is unfair to someone. Continually being held up by other players in RQ's is unfair to someone and can drive people away. XYZ can drive people away/be unfair, someone somewhere is going to feel that a specific change(s) is unfair/will drive people away.
The potential to drive people away/be unfair to someone is NOT specific to the timer system. Moving along.
P.S. your efforts, especially typing on a phone are respected and appreciated and misspellings are fine.
Lets be clear you can't keep people hostage indefinitely, the system you want already exists and now you have resorted relying on others to vote. Which means any fair system is going to require the vote. Its the 15mins wait time you don't like which is a timer from the moment you enter a dungeon.
So your asking cryptic to basically subvert the system that they have already created and maintained throughout all these years to help players prevent repercussions so that instead a player receives repercussions because you do not want to wait 15mins and there is no rules as to what players have to do during these 15mins annoys you. I mean OK you can make what ever suggestions you want but here's a suggestion to everyone looking to steamroller through every bit of content...
This is an MMO D&D game, slow down, say 'hi' make sure everyone knows there role and any mechanics that might be important, see if anyone has any doubts ease them into it, socialise a little, have a cup of tea. 15mins will pass quickly, if your like nah but I want to steamroll need to get that ad as fast as possible yeah you can leave if you cant be patient for 15mins but you may reciece a penalty for 2x the time and if you dont want to deal with the 15mins vote thing you can always try to set up a private group.
To those making the presumption that they are going to fail, voice your opinion before going afk at the very least maybe try the content if there's others that can make you feel at ease, let the team know if you think it's better to kick you try not to just be silent, you are totally free to do what you want for 15mins but it would be nice if you don't just go silent and leave everyone waiting in limbo.
To devs perhaps you can reduce the cooldown to intitate a vote by half, 4 hours is a little harsh, I think somewhere between 2-3 is the sweet spot, and maybe you could reduce 15mins wait to intitate a vote to kick to 10mins,as some are too impatient for 15mins please
As for ToS
So first response from my ticket yesterday
I have sent a response for further clarification as well and will post responses too
Comments
Adding timers "shouldn't" be a lot of work. There is already a timer to join an RQ, where if the prompt is not confirmed within the time or is declined the character is removed from the group so the same could go for the "circle timer". The difference being the trigger to prevent being removed would be entering and staying within the circle. Sure mechanics/difficulty may play a role in content preference though arguably players tend to want the shortest path to rewards plain and simple while the longer/tougher content is often enough not desired for that very reason, pretty much nothing more, nothing less in that regard.
Prior to RQ's players and bot designers chose the simplest content, then RQ's made it to where there was no choice in the content and that other players had to be carried along so that all could get rewards (which artificially increased the time to complete). Players used to run super buffed groups so later on buffs were nerfed/removed and stat scaling was introduced (which further artificially increased completion time/difficulty. Player actions/behavior pushed those changes to happen. Whose fault is that?
If "longer" content had the rewards somewhat improved that may be step in the right direction though personally wouldn't push for that because arguably completing all 4 RQ types (or just 3, minus the ADQ) takes around an hour regardless of the content chosen. 100k RAD + other rewards from the chest(s) for around an hour of time is a fairly good time to reward ratio. So what? Have to start somewhere. Pretty sure even if it starts out bugged and gets polished to work properly later on players not being held up by instance leaving, holding the group hostage behavior will overall be pleased. The timer could simply be increased for dragon hunts...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The toxic environment of groups easily being able to be be held up by a pouting player will be lessened quite a lot at least.
The result of giving players the leaver penalty when they intentionally hold up a group is upon them. Whether they are "educated" or not, their negative behavior will no longer have such an influence over the rest of the group which is the point. Players that don't commit such acts are pretty much in the clear while those that do, have a few choices to make:
- keep getting put in timeout (no rewards).
- don't RQ (no rewards).
- run the content (get rewards).
RQ's already reward for "good behavior" (some negative behavior as well unfortunately). Run the content even if you don't like it, don't hold the group up, get rewards, seems pretty straight forward right?
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
You pretty much say my personal experience doesn't matter, but than I can just turn it round to you, you personal experience doesn't mean its as bad as you make it out, this just begins a silly back and forth No simply increase the time will not prevent unfair penalties if agreements can't be reached.
You say just because it doesn't happen to me frequently doesn't reflect how often it happens to other, this is a silly argument I can just turn back around and say just because it happens to you frequently doesn't reflect everyone either pointless rebuttal to reasonable comment which by the way never claimed my own personal experience would be the be end all.
Improve rewards and you damage the AH as we have seen since the last reward improvements, and actually increasing rewards will in the long term cause more harm as the game gets flooded with things people just want to flog which drives value down which reduces the value of running content over time.
You say adding timers shouldn't be alot of work, well no one would think fixing the cleric mark or shield bug would be too much work but still not fixed, unless you are a developer for cryptic you can't know what will be alot of work for them or not granted neither can I ofcourse, however considering how old this game is if players leaving an instance or going afk was really considered an issue by cryptic why havnt they already implemented it, my guess is they all ready know the issues a timer will cause
Again there is already a solution and I won't stop saying it, go private than you do what ever you want, you can control your group, otherwise go public and accept you may once in a blue moon have to kick some one for whatever reason, don't like the 4 hour cooldown for kicking that ask for that to be reduced.
First of all, welcome to MMO. It's one of MMO element, that some players are friendly, some ignorant and also some toxic.
Now the issue what is debated about is that some players leave dungeon but not quit q/party.
Easy solution to fix it. Remove door/entrace portal in start of dungeon, so player can't walk out of dungeon. Also when try use any other way to move out of dungeon to be considered as abandon group.
Now will that stop players from doing it? Some will be discouraged, but other portion of playerbase will pick other option.
Which is simply switch alts, or like in other previous played games, you for moment disconnect from internet, which also disconnect you from game server. So instead log in to your character which is inside dungeon you log in with alt. WIth alt do some side game content, or even do q to dungeon( whatever). Meanwhile your previosu characters is sonsidered as offline, so party members have wait till disconnection time expire and system remove your character from group/party or, they have votekick you.
Either way it does not discourage players from such behavior.
I didn't read much of suggested ideas, cuz I notice that fundemental flaw within it.
You all here want to punish players who doing it. Instead looking reasons why they do it. If you find out why they do that and fix it, then there will be no need to implement punishment features, which may cause more a problem then help.
As good example, Cabal Online in one time used feature pin code system, as feature to block bot activity.
Now while it worked against bots, it also caused problem for other players. Cuz once pin box opened, you are unable use any your character items or abilies..
So after year, the system where removed from game.
Eventually game developers and publishers simply elimiante certain items trading, which more less made botting pointless. And due roughly 80% of bots where gone.
So instead trying punish, you need solve reason why players do leave dungeon. Once you make so it would no longer be beneficia;, then players will simply quit doing it.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
You keep saying "pre-made groups", so continue with your pre-made groups then. You are arguing against something that will effect you little if at all being that these suggestions will not harm the pre-made group style of play that you tout. False.
It was stated in so many words that just because it doesn't happen to you frequently doesn't mean that it doesn't happen frequently to others.
When someone says "hey, this is an issue for me, I would like to see something done about it" and another person responds with "hey, that doesn't happen a lot to me, you are making it bigger than what it is, you should do this instead" they are gaslighting the other person by demeaning what they have personally experienced, which is what you are doing... The suggestion to improve rewards was not detailed...
The number of refinement items (blood rubies, alexandrite, brilliant diamonds, etc.) from the chests at the end of longer content could be increased without severely harming the trade house while increasing the "value" of running longer content. RP items sell for very little on the trade house. Currently violet diamonds (50k RP) sell for less than 3.5k EACH on PS4, even doubling those drops from long content chests arguably won't harm that market severely. Keyword, "shouldn't"...
Coding something that is dependent on multiple variables is essentially harder than coding timers that will return a particular result EVERY time, in this case, kicking players that are outside of the instance/circle for "x" number of seconds.
BTW have personally coded for apps as well as a few video games that are currently being developed by this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Allowing players some time to leave the instance and ready themselves is reasonable. Within the past month or so queued on a character and attempted to switch to see what would happen and was met with a prompt that stated something along the lines of "logging onto this character may/will cause the other queued character to receive the leaver penalty". Tried it again a few moments ago and didn't get the prompt, seems that protection system was disabled. Enabling it again will prevent players from holding a group hostage while they do things on another character(s) and should discourage/prevent them from even trying to do so. As previously mentioned some do it when the content isn't to their liking or they feel the group isn't up to par.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
However, in all my previous played games it was thing that you make preparation before entering dungeon, not after you get in.
Also you can trade potions, so whats the problem here?
I was in pug group, and one guy in the middle of lomm said, sorry I need get in PE for moment. He wrote me that he wanted pick artefact from his bank. Ok. After 10 min, he was still out of dungeon. So I asked where you are.. he said in PE. But via Social search I found he was in avernus, doing huntings.
In the moment he was bootkick.
So, some may use feature to move out and back in dungeon for reason to get x stufs from bank, or buy potions. But there are those who use in negative way.
I think it would be better if players get used to be ready before entering dugeon. Also healers are in group, so even if you lack HP potions, you may still survive.
So you are still with 1 account? It's now more less normal to have at least two accounts.
Some yes, some does for other reasons.
For some players, well I can give you example. Take LoMM as dungeon, get a rogue with BoA, and rest of group's presence is no longer required. You clear dungeonas it would be speedrun content.
Even without BoA, the primary dps does 80% of dmg, second dps somewhere 10%, and third's dps presnce is not even required.
Tanking in LOMM, is musch "required". for most of dungeon you do.. ...... ..... Nothing, your presence is optional at finall boss fight.
What's about older dungeon? One player required, rest are just passengers. So how much you like being a passanger in dungeon run, when all is just /Follow_Prime dps.
In short, why stay in dungeon if you presence is not even requried.?
For other it's opposite, if they see that in that dungeon/trial they may not be carried through. They simply walk away, and do other content.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
You keep saying "pre-made groups", so continue with your pre-made groups then. You are arguing against something that will effect you little if at all being that these suggestions will not harm the pre-made group style of play that you tout. False.
It was stated in so many words that just because it doesn't happen to you frequently doesn't mean that it doesn't happen frequently to others.
When someone says "hey, this is an issue for me, I would like to see something done about it" and another person responds with "hey, that doesn't happen a lot to me, you are making it bigger than what it is, you should do this instead" they are gaslighting the other person by demeaning what they have personally experienced, which is what you are doing... The suggestion to improve rewards was not detailed...
The number of refinement items (blood rubies, alexandrite, brilliant diamonds, etc.) from the chests at the end of longer content could be increased without severely harming the trade house while increasing the "value" of running longer content. RP items sell for very little on the trade house. Currently violet diamonds (50k RP) sell for less than 3.5k EACH on PS4, even doubling those drops from long content chests arguably won't harm that market severely. Keyword, "shouldn't"...
Coding something that is dependent on multiple variables is essentially harder than coding timers that will return a particular result EVERY time, in this case, kicking players that are outside of the instance/circle for "x" number of seconds.
BTW have personally coded for apps as well as a few video games that are currently being developed by this user.
False
You just want to see people get punished unfairly for stupid things that barely effects anyone I can just as easily saythose who are blowing this up into a problem are the ones gas lighting, Refinements is only the tip of the iceberg, and RP is a reward no one cares about no point even talking about it, already stated bugs that may occur from timers which yeah you brush off that basically fine with that and happy with waiting to be fixed if they ever occur you don't care about a fair playing experience for everyone you just care that people don't hold you up so again I can just easily claim everything you are saying is gaslighting, leaving us again at an impass.
You may not like that the solution already exist or you may not like what the solution already is but its there use it or don't your choice.
Sometimes a queue pops faster than you can prepare for, point being that leaving an instance for a few minutes AND returning to run the content is forgivable.
The suggested timers would prevent players from leaving for whatever reason indefinitely and not be penalized (as they currently can without penalty) if they overstay outside the instance. To cover pretty much ALL bases, simply if they don't come back in "x" minutes they are automatically removed from the group, receive the leaver penalty, reinforcements can be found and the group can carry on without having to wait for the vote kick to become available (15 minutes?) or someone leaving out of frustration and taking the leaver penalty themselves. Players in a RQ group being unreasonably held up by a pouting player is stupid while players intentionally holding up a group and not receiving a penalty for doing so isn't? Wow...
Holding a group up because you don't like the RQ content and or leaving an instance without returning then being automatically removed from the group after "x" minutes is NOT an unfair punishment, it is beyond justified. Being selfish and holding up the rest of the group is NOT a "fair playing experience for everyone" as you put it, yet here you are again being hypocritical. Yeah you can say it's gas lighting, though can you substantiate the claim(s)? Probably not.
If it affects one player, it can affect ALL players, hell it has even happened to you yet you act like it cannot be a big deal to somebody else. On top of that you previously replied: On one hand you try to hold your personal experience of it not happening to you as much as others higher than the personal experiences of those that it has and continues to happen to, in other words, that their personal experience matters less if at all. Do you even care that it happens to others?
Hostile behavior that holds the group up without penalty IS a problem, hence why the thread was created in the first place and why some have voiced their opinion in favor of it. It's a problem for players whether you accept it or not.
Lots of players care about RP, and getting more RP for not so preferred content is a step forward from pretty much any RQ type essentially having the same rewards no matter the length of time it takes to complete the content itself. Whether it takes 15 or 40+ minutes, the base rewards are pretty much the same so what's the problem with increasing RP rewards for content that inherently takes longer to complete? Increasing rewards is one way to do just that... If players feel their time spent is rewarded decently they arguably are less likely to try and skip particular RQ content.
Yet when it was personally responded to with increasing RP rewards, you turned right around and went against it... Are you arguing against the suggestion just to be arguing? It really seems like you are. Yes bugs may occur with implementing the suggested system, so what? They also may not occur so what is your point exactly with mentioning POTENTIAL bugs?
Pointing out "potential" problems does not simply negate or detract from the suggestion itself, which it seems you are adamantly trying to do, although it's not working. You respond and are accordingly and reasonably responded to. You think (apparently):
- the detailed hostile/negative behavior should not be punished.
- increasing rewards to entice players to run currently less preferred content is not a good idea.
- potential bugs negates the suggested system.
- since it doesn't happen often enough to you that the detailed negative behavior isn't that much of a problem.
- that pre-made groups are the solution instead of directly engaging the behavior itself.
- etc., etc.
There's essentially nothing to agree with you about. You attack the suggested timer system illogically then try and use conjecture to support your claims. YOU are at an impasse, this user is actively building a suggestion to help lessen the effects of particular hostile/negative behavior in regard to RQ's.
Personally want the detailed hostile behavior to be met with removal from the queue group, which it should be. In other words removing those specific behaviors from holding a group up beyond "x" minutes instead of looking the other way in hopes the behavior will stop on its own.
Since you tout pre-made groups so much, they don't simply negate the potential for negative behavior as you lead others to believe. Pre-made groups can and do have their own pitfalls such as:
- Newer players may not know anyone.
- Newer players may not know how to use the text chat to even utilize pre-made groups in the first place.
- Language barriers.
- At any given time a player(s) in a pre-made group can go AFK/drop group for whatever reason.
- Jealousy.
- Helping prevent players from meeting other players if they simply tun with the same group(s).
- If the player base strictly ran pre-made groups there would essentially be no available reinforcements.
- Solo players would be left out.
- Etc.
Have personally been in pre-made dragon hunt groups where a player just up and leaves the group AFTER the first, second or terribly, the third dragon fight is initiated, when that happens even if the player is replaced they can't get into the fight until everyone else dies and the group has to COMPLETELY start over... If the group is private the queue leader pretty much has to leave the instance/use guild/alliance chat to find a replacement, even then, if they leave, they too can't get into the fight along with the replacement...
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
I didnt attack your idea I pointed out the issues that occur but your so set you don't care either you just want a silly timer to kick people indiscriminately.
If you want to avoid people going afk or asking to be kicked premake your group with people you get on with, those people aren't on ? make some new friends or just don't play if someone going afk is so game breaking for you that makes you call for everyone to recive penalties for not fitting inside your personal box.
Literally majority of your wall of text isn't even worth reading at this point your stubborn that you want a timer we get it I totally disagree that a timer will fix anything and is more to cause worse issues. Again we are at an impass
Private groups are the solution while you think everyone should be locked into content or take a ban.
By the way misquoting me and than claiming I'm saying something I'm not is gaslighting, you have revealed how you, your entire response is gaslighting.
As for arguing for the sake of arguing, look in a mirror, that's all this thread is.
Player said vote kick from the START AND left the instance. Again, a vote kick cannot be started until at least 15 minutes have passed and you think the rest of a group should have to wait 15 minutes before TRYING to get rid of them while the offending player runs around doing whatever when the suggested timers could get rid of them a lot sooner? That is beyond ridiculous and inconsiderate.
3 people on the forums and there are arguably plenty more people that will agree that are not on the forums. Clearly at least 2 people in this thread DO NOT want to pre-make groups just to RQ so repeatedly suggested that that been done is also inconsiderate. This thread is about something being done about specific, hostile player behaviors, not tip toeing around the core issue. If players would just run the RQ content or take the leaver penalty the suggestions here arguably wouldn't have come up in the first place. As usual players tend to need "assisstance" with not griefing others.
Simply ask in zone chat in protector's enclave for a few days whether players would rather wait 15 minutes to try and vote kick someone holding up the RQ group because they left the instance without leaving the group/not entering the gather your party circle or a system that would automatically remove them in less than half the time. Bugs might occur if the system is implemented. A person may get hurt after leaving their house. In either case the possibility of something negative does not simply prevent either from happening. Players are in fact being griefed by pouty players in RQ's, not simply a possibility. Players in fact want something done about grieifing behavior, not simply a possibility.
Once again the timer system will not kick people indiscriminately.
If you leave the instance and come back within "x" minutes = No kick
If you enter the gather your party circle within "x" minutes/remain in the circle = No kick
If you leave the instance and DO NOT come back within "x" minutes = KICKED
If you DO NOT enter the gather your party circle within "x" minutes or are not in the circle when the timer is up = KICKED The timers will get rid of the players intentionally holding up the group, that effect is essentially what the OP, this user and other players want. Pre-making groups is not the desired "solution" here, yet you keep mentioning it as if it will simply change.
You are a blue shirt at a red shirt meeting trying to tell the red shirts what they should and should not do and how to go about resolving an issue they are clearly having.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Red shirt at a blue shirt meeting huh yeah I'm preventing an echo chamber...so what this has nothing to do with anything
Emergency- you should know the people you are premaking with so 9/10 your likely going to get prepared of an emergency such as need to change a babies nappy or whatever a whole bunch of things can be sorted easier simply by knowing the people you playing with this is literally a non starter
You keep wanting to press that if your being held up that the person holding you up is being toxic or presenting negative behaviour when actually there just not doing what you want, it's so game breaking having to wait 15mins to kick someone huh, remove the 15min wait timer like they have in the dragon hunts. No need to add a timer that will automatically kick someone without knowing what they need that time for.
Your solution to indiscriminately kick people who don't fit your personal box so far I don't see a whole lot of people rushing to agree with your idea dude so stop making it out like there's so many players who have an issue with this when even by looking at this thread its a minority.
Once again you paint the timer system as something without flaws failing to acknowledge the possible negative effects of an automatic timer except to say yeah bugs may happen so what
The timer system fix nothing
Premade groups is already the solution like it or lump it. There's literally no need for this as you can either premake a group or deal with the nature of public groups. Really not that difficult. The so called problem of people leaving an instance is not a problem except to a few people with 0 patience, because yeah you can just kick them and move on,instead you want get frustrated and hand out bans based on a unfair timer system whatever dud you don't want to accept the flaws of your idea that's your perogative, but it won't change the fact and yes it's a fact that the solution to this ops problem is to premake a group and ensure everyone is happy to run all content that might appear.
“Blue shirt” - you and those who think pre-made groups are the solution.
Apparently hostile behavior that unreasonably holds a group up is a problem for the red shirts and that they don't see pre-made groups as sufficient, otherwise why create a thread(s) and voice opinions about it in the first place.
You are creating the echo chamber. You don't like the timer idea, you don't want players that intentionally hold the RQ group up to be actioned against, you don't like the idea of increasing rewards for longer content to entice players to run it, you claim you don't see the point in reading this user’s posts yet you keep responding STILL.
You have piled up "what ifs", assumptions and conjecture as if the fact that there are people that have a legitimate issue with particular hostile behaviors in regard to RQ's will somehow be trumped by your opinion(s).
What you actually are doing is helping develop the timer system suggestion further by allowing this user to address points that you bring up so thank you for that. People and hopefully developers that read this thread and continue to read this can get a better feel of the issues with particular hostile behaviors, how the timer system can work, as well as what it can accomplish so again, thank you for that. Players can't prepare for each and every kind of emergency in a pre-made group. The point is instead of having to wait and try to use a vote kick or someone who isn’t exhibiting hostile behavior having to take the leaver penalty at the BEGINNING of a RQ because someone went afk/disconnected, the suggested timer system would remove the player that is outside the instance/afk/disconnected when the timer expires if the group can get to a gather your party circle.
Also, the timer system could be set so that if 4 players (dungeons/skirmishes)/9 players (trials) are at the same campfire for a specific amount of time that it will act as a gather your party circle activating the timer and the afk/disconnected player would automatically be removed when the timer expires without someone having to use a vote kick. The system has multiple positive uses, not just against hostile behavior but also in the case of a situation where a player gets disconnected/forced to go afk for more than like 5 minutes though you are not trying to see ANY benefits with it... Frankly if 4/9 players are waiting in the "circle", one player shouldn't be able to hold the rest of the group up for pretty much ANY reason for an unreasonable amount of time nor should the group be faced with waiting 15 minutes before being able to spend a vote kick just to TRY and remove an afk/disconnected player or someone that exited the instance without leaving the group and is hanging out in another zone. If the vote kick fails then what? Exactly, they would be stuck, and the timer system would help prevent that from happening.
Players arguably for the most part don't want to wait 15 minutes on top of the amount of time it takes the queue to pop simply because a player is being hostile, afk, disconnected, etc. 15 minutes is a long time for someone with less time to play than others, of course you don’t seem to consider those players though.
Trying to use the forums as a concrete basis of determining what the majority/entire player base wants, doesn’t want, likes and or dislikes is laughable. There are probably thousands upon thousands of players that have yet to come to the forums at all. Some people read forum threads and don’t respond whether they agree/disagree with posts, ideas, threads or not.
There are people here in this thread that like, agree, etc. posts from both sides so why are you trying to make it seem like there are so many people are against it and none for it…
4/9 players “in the box” (circle/instance) AND ready to run the content should be able to trump 1 player outside the box (circle/instance) after a reasonable amount of time. You haven’t really addressed possible negative effects that haven’t already been reasonably responded to by this user, nor has this user stated that the timer system is free from negative effects, although the intended effect of removing hostile players from the RQ group without having to wait 15 minutes/utilize a vote kick still remains at the forefront.
Players that make a reasonable effort to return to the instance/keep up with the group within a reasonable amount of time shouldn’t be negatively affected by the timer system at all, players that don’t make a reasonable effort, reasonably will.
- Bugs – already addressed – the system may or may not have bugs.
- Players not being able to keep up – already addressed – give the player a speed boost and prompt to reach the rest of the group in the circle.
- Length of timer for dragon hunts – already addressed – give a reasonable amount of time to decide on mods (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes)
- Player “needing to be afk/outside the instance for some time – already addressed – give them “x” minutes to return to the instance/enter the circle (timer must be considerably less than 15 minutes, like 5 minutes).
- Improving rewards – already addressed – if longer content isn’t rewarded better, players will probably continue to not prefer running the longer content.
Anything else?“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
You think you have addressed my concerns but you havnt, none of those will actually fix any of the issues that could arise from a time it's not worth my time pointing out the flaws and circular reson of your so called solutions frankly.l
As I said we clearly disagree you should just leave it at that you will save your self alot of time. You have made your point I have made mine now leave it up to the rest of the player base and the developers to decide...
I say this thread is nothing more than a pointless argument bait that will achieve nothing
And yep I say premade is the solution you say its not, your not going to convince me I'm not going to convince you iv stopped try now
So yeah just leave it upto the rest of the player base and devs.
I WON’T BE DOING content that I hate, no matter how much the devs want their bugged content to be played. Randomness in this case is just a joke. If you get the same content several times in a row, I think there are priorities set for dungeons/skirmishes that no normal person would do of their own accord.
I can carry weak players, but to a certain extent. Don't expect me to patiently endure a 2 hour run with dps of 60-70k who, for example, in lomm can't kill a mimic....
My patience and nerves are simply limited.
When I get a particular dungeon, a glance at the other players is enough for me to be able to judge if it can be done fairly painlessly. If not, I ask to be kicked out of the queue.
The moment they kick me out, they gain an additional option: they can leave the queue without penalty or get another player. So no one loses out on this, on the contrary.
If it's a problem because players think, as you do, that it's my duty to carry' them, then I wait passively. I'm not going to take the punishment just because people are idiots.
Timer could work only and exclusively in the case when kicking would not generate any penalty.
Increasing the penalties for players, introducing timers or other additional difficulties, will only result in a return to the situation before random queues. New players will wait until the HAMSTER-dead in a dungeon queue, and when a pt is found, it will be made up entirely of players just like them.
And then good luck, you will surely succeed.
The "issues" brought up in regard to the timer system were met with a resolution/response and then they were repeatedly responded to with the same issues as if they hadn't been addressed. Not acknowledging that responses to the issues were made doesn't make them go away. Simply stating that the provided resolutions/responses "won't fix" the issues without also providing supporting details, information, evidence, etc. to support the claims is NOT a reasonable argument. Also stating opinions and making gross claims without supporting information is also NOT a reasonable argument, especially against facts.
The claim that asking to be kicked does not disrupt the group is false. In most cases it takes 15 minute BEFORE a vote kick can be initiated, that's 15 minutes the group could have gotten a replacement and been well into the content had the pouty player simply taken the leaver penalty.
There are those that think it is fair or reasonable for one player to be able to force the rest of the group to wait 15 minutes to try and kick them while they stand around/roam outside of the instance just because they don't like the RQ content that pops, it is not, though they are entitled to their opinion no matter how unsubstantiated it is.
It's funny that some players tout that they are forced to RQ for RAD/rewards though don't keep that same energy and contradict themselves when it comes down to them not wanting to run the same content that they say they are forced to run in the first place...
There are some that disagree with the timer system, of course some would, ESPECIALLY if it will target them for their intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group because they do not like the content that pops, again, they are entitled to their opinion though that opinion is against the ToS being that it is preventing the other 4/9 other players from enjoying the game. Does intentionally holding up a RQ group not go against any of the above, quoted in bold terms of service? It in fact does, so again, if you don't like the RQ content that pops, take the leaver penalty because if you don't you are clearly going against the ToS multiple times over by griefing the other 4/9 players.
So now things have shifted here. It is no longer just differing opinions, but now a particular side of opinions unambiguously going against the ToS... The suggested timer system (in its current iteration) would at most grant a 30 minute leaver penalty to players while breaking the terms could can result in a penalty far greater... Which is worse, a 30 minute queue timeout or a ban from being able to play the game at all? Something to think about.
No matter how players feel about RQ's if expressing your dislike about the content involves you going against the terms of service then prepare yourselves to at some point be actioned against by Cryptic.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
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Now here's how asking to be kicked or being afk may not go against these terms of service, it pretty simple, the service allows you to remove any player for what ever reason as long as the group agrees yes in most cases the service forces you to wait 15mins to be removed however as long as you don't prevent the removal of yourself in the attept of just making everything harder for everyone than your not going against service. It is not the players fault that a group has to wait 15mins to kick that is part of the service. If you read this thinking just the very action of asking to be kicked or waiting 15mins to kick someone is against terms of service than so is skipping cut scenes and skipping dialogue, I could also argue that if vote kicking can be done but you refuse to because you think someone should be forced to run content that they don't enjoy would than be you who is refusing to kick that is impeding another's ability to enjoy the game. Now iv sent in a ticket to get clarification due to the ambiguous wording of these terms. If you take the term of service at face value then if you say have a tank or healer who isn't good at their role but is enjoying the content even if they are dying and you decide you want to kick them to find someone else you may be impeding another players enjoyment of the game. However you twist things anyone can claim another person is preventing them enjoying the game.
Dude I pointed out the flaws with your timer multiple times, you think you addressed the issues in your mind but you havn't instead you have tried to brush them under carpet. And yeah I see no reason to continue repeating and pointing the flaws of your argument. So move on
This thread has been up for quite a while now and not a single moderator or dev have come here to clarify anything, could be wrong but I'm assuming this is because they are not interested in this at all and so I doubt there is any violations of terms of service, again cryptic employees are welcome to chime in and I'm currently awaiting a response to aticket to get clarification on the ambiguous wording of the terms of service.
Something in-depth like this gets released with a new Mod with lots of polish and fan fare.
That's why have put in support ticket aswell to see if i can get any clarification to the ambiguity of the terms of service. Will let everyone know if I get a response and ofcourse will post response regardless of what it says even if I am wrong
Asking to be kicked is one thing. Asking to be kicked and the rest of the group having to in most cases wait 15 minutes to try and do so and also cannot proceed with the content because the player wanting to be kicked is just standing there/exits the instance is something else. If a player asks to be kicked and in the meantime runs the content with the group then is kicked later is different as well because they were not holding up the group. That's good, would like to know the response for clarification as well. Personally respect your effort in gaining clarification. What was seen to been an issue/flaw yes was pointed out, though the issues/flaws were also responded to then ignored and treated as if they were not made at all. The above quote contained the "issues"/flaws brought up in regard to the timer system as well as the response/resolution to them and also asked the question of "anything else?", which was responded to with: Even though the responses were read (apparently), the responses to the issues/flaws were simply ignored, which is fine. The responses were also pointed out to have been ignored. What isn't fine is choosing not to acknowledge the responses then turning around and stating that the issues/flaws were not addressed/simply won't fix the issues.
If the issues/flaws are felt to not have been addressed sufficiently then do provide how they are not sufficient, by not doing so it hurts the argument. There are literally hundreds of threads both short and long, both new and old that do not have a moderator or developer response within them, it simply means that they haven't responded, nothing more, nothing less.
Lack of a response means little to nothing as far as trying to use the lack of a response to prove something one way or another.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
2 speed boost- this may not work for any number of reasons ranging from handicaps and mental health to need to change a babies nappy to connection issues
3 it can take longer than 5 mins ir can take longer than 15mins to come to an agreement, I'm not joking iv literally been sat arguing about what is better limited conditioning or Denied, resilience vs tricky reversal and easily irritated vs rotating chaos or Ferocity vs any other easy/medium mods and even arguing about the pointlessness of running the dragons without any modifiers. A timer will only cause unfair penalties in this situation.
4 this is where connection issues may result in unfair penalties, as everyone has different connection status, for example some people have practically no loading screen time while others it can feel like an age, moreover there is the potential of double timer issues for example you leave instance to go grab something, timer starts, rest of team continu to the boss and manage to get to it before you have done everything you needed to do and a second timer begins you head back to the instance but due to loading times you may not make it the the circle intime at which point you receive a penalty even though you are just a few steps away when the timer reaches 0.
5 improving rewards is only inticing until the AH is flooded with said reward at which point it may be more efficient to j7st buy said reward from another player the reward your looking for drops in value so much that the time taken is no longer inticing, improving rewards also hurts the player economy of the long term so this isn't a fix for anything really
Personally I think the 15min wait to kick is already a fair system and possibly more fair than a timer tied to each person, at least with the vote system people can vote no if they know the person is coming back and is not intentionally holding others up. Where as timer once it hits 0 if your not where others want you to be not only are you getting kicked your going to recieve a penalty no matter what.
I have said pretty much all of this in multiple different comments maybe not as detailed as here but I have acknowledged them, them except for point number 4, and tbh I didn't think I'd have to spell this out, these issue also do not represent every possible issue a timer may cause but they should adequate to show the flaws of the timer system
Again I responded to someone, I'm fully aware of how little cryptic employees engage with the posts on 5his forum which is why as I said I have sent in a support ticket to get clarification about the ambiguous nature if the terms of services and yes as stated I promise to be 100% transparent with everyone here If and when I receive a response from them
Again, the possibility of bugs, even when speculated by players multiple times over here on the forums, does not and has not essentially prevented the developers from moving forward with ANY update since Neverwinter was first released, if that was the case and as previously mentioned, the game would still be on v1.0... 2 Speed boost - if a player can't make it within 5 minutes (which is quite some time to even handle afk things/travel through content) then they are removed from the group by the system.
One player having afk/connectivity issues, etc. simply shouldn't be able to continually hold up the rest of the group that is not having those issues and are ready to go. On top of that, if a player can't keep up with the group, especially a tank or healer and depending on the content, the rest of the group may not be able to get through the mobs in the first place to get to the next area anyway, the group should/will be within close proximity being that they cannot proceed forward and won't be able to activate the timer in the first pace. If it is a DPS that can't keep up then they are not really contributing to the group correct?
If a player has mental health issue/is handicapped they can submit the proper documentation as proof of such and their account can be flagged to "slightly" increase any timers that the system would impose. Players in a RQ group with a person with a flagged account can receive a bonus similar to the new player bonus for possibly have to wait longer to accommodate said player. 3 Dragon hunt agreements - if it takes longer than 5 minutes to reach an agreement then the player(s) outside the circle are removed from the group.
In a public dragon hunt group players don't have to come to an agreement on mods, it can help though is not necessary. Everyone can simply put up whatever mods they have and the dragon hunt system will randomly choose 2-3, it's a public group, fair enough. Even if an agreement is made about mods in a public OR private group, that will not stop someone from breaking said agreement and just anonymously putting up whatever mod(s) they want because the dragon hunt system does not let the group know who put up what mod(s).
In regard to dragon hunts, pre-made groups can help players get parts they want though it still not guaranteed because again, players can put up whatever mods they want and remain anonymous. 4 Connection issues/loading times - the timer(s) can be set to slightly pause while a character is loading. Slightly to prevent a player from simply and continually exiting/entering the instance to try and keep the timer paused indefinitely.
RQ groups can also get a few "vote to extend timer" votes where if the vote passes the timer is extended for the player not in the instance/outside the circle. They would be available immediately from the start. Also each player can get a "increase timer" option where for whatever reason they can extend a timer for themselves. 5 Increasing rewards - RP was initially addressed as an example and already of pretty low trade house value so increasing RP from RQ content would do what, make it go lower? Companion/Mount upgrade token rewards can be increased for longer content, can't sell those so increasing their rates/amounts arguably won't affect the trade house prices. Trade bar rewards can be increased as well for longer content, increased trade bar rewards arguably won't affect the market no more than the trade bar merchant sales do. High tier rewards don't have to be increased though that can still be an option. There are events where high tier rewards have their drop rates increased, what about those? For clarification purposes, once the circle timer is activated (by the majority of the group entering it) it would not stop/reset even if all players left the circle, meaning that if the timer is activated and ALL players leave it, when the timer reaches zero they ALL get removed from the group and would receive the leaver penalty. It would have to work like that in order to help prevent abuse.
*6 Inexperienced player in a trial - When a player that hasn't been in a particular trial/content before enters the content EVERYONE gets a message that there is a new player in the instance and the group "should" take that into consideration.
If the timer is activated the new player would have about 5 minutes for someone to explain the mechanics to them and or the group can attempt the trial anyway. If the group fails, the majority of the group can then stand outside the circle so that the timer will not start and the mechanics can be explained without the rush. Have read and re-read your posts multiple times over to make sure a little as possible was missed before giving various responses. Besides mentioning possible bugs and "unfair punishments", pretty much everything else was slightly mentioned here and there though not detailed.
Supposed or perceived flaws, especially when they are not detailed, do not simply discredit a suggestion. "oh there may be bugs", "oh people will be unfairly punished", "oh what about emergencies", etc., etc. are simple objections to a more thoroughly detailed and suggested system/change.
That's like person A going to person B with a detailed business plan and person C saying "the font it was printed in is ugly, that's a bad business plan". You see how ridiculous that sounds? If you are going to reasonably object to something, anything, then come with it rather than thinking simple objections are going to hold substantial weight against it.
This user (and others as well) is beyond tired of being held up in RQ's by pissy players that don't want to take the leaver penalty for content they signed up for yet refuse to reasonably participate in. This user is going to continue to develop and polish the suggested timer system AND defend it. If you are against the timer system and are thinking about making a post it is being suggested that bring your BEST objections/arguments AND be prepared to defend them because counter arguments will more than likely be made.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
1 there bugs than there is game breaking bugs, it's the game breaking bugs that i worry about.
2. It's doesn't matter what the role is as thats like saying its OK for this person but not OK for this other person sorry but yes if there's a automatic timer that has no form of adjustments to prevent unfair penalties for poor connection issues than this should be a big red flag for an idea you won't accept it because your so set in your mind that the timer will work for what you want it work for.
3. And this is proving my point that a timer system is actually detrimental. Here's an example I wrnt into a public ancient black dragon, I inspected everyone to get gunge of how Ithey might perform, the healer appeared to be underwhelming and the dps could also have had some better gear, In that time a dps activates the mod table, I say the healer may struggle to keep us all alive with this dragon which the healer agrees with, so I say I'm willing to try but only if no mods are set, people were agreeing but didn't realise they had to step out the circle first so that we unselected the mod table, they did not step out of circle until I said you need to step out of the circle if you agree, this took longer than 5mins at which you would argue that it would be right for me to take a ban. When actually I'm trying to communicate and come to an agreement. Again big red flag for such a system. Another example I went into a dragon with a healer that would do no healing so I vote to kick even saying that I have played with healer multiple times and they NEVER heal anyone so I initiate a vote but everyone says no so under you ideal If i now refuse to carry on I will need to take a ban because no I am not here to carry others who do nor know or are not willing to do their job. Again 5min timer is not enough. Now of course premade groups can be the answer to all these problems just as it can be the answer to the OP you won't accept this but will still advise it when you think it suits your argument, no premade isn't guaranteed no issues but it's less likely to have the same issues.People shouldn't feel rushed to get into content and people shouldn't receive unfair penalties due to disagreements with a group. But again you think they should be so impass. (By the completed that black dragon and yes took a ban for the other dragon with the healer that doesn't heal)
4. Here's where you start to add more things that the developers will have to code in alongside the timer system and monitor to ensure its working properly and to ensure all these 'solutions' for the timer issue exist. Jusr more unnecessary headaches for the devs, Good luck with that though I'm pretty sure there will see it has the current system is already adequate but really good luck convincing the devs to implement all these new things just because some people don't like waiting 15mins
5 I do not see what your point is here or you are not seeing mine not sure which.
6 the key word here is 'should' and 'can'. If you can convince the devs to add yet another system tied to this timer you are still relying on other players to do the right thing otherwise someone will receive an unfair penalty again big red flag to a flawed system.
Whether your annoyed about being held up by others or not, unfair penalties are unfair and drive people away, being forced to wait 15mins isn't down to the players but down to the system the devs will have a good reason why its 15min wait time and preventing abuse of the system will probably be one of the reasons as well as why there is a 4 hour cooldown for intiating said voting, which I think should be reduced by half, now I'm not going to pretend I know all the reasons why the developers have chosen the system that they have but the more and more i hear about this timer idea the more and more I feel its so don't have to deal with the headache of the auto timer, I'm sure this isn't the case but as I said the more I think about this the more I think the current system is adequate, not because it allows people to go afk and wait to be k8ckef but because it actually seems to address many of my fears of that your timer idea gives me.
P.S I can't be bothered to run through correct the spelling mistakes I'm on damn phone with the tiniest touch screen and everything I edit i risk deleting and loosing my entire comment so yeah hopefully you can work it out
Fact 2: There are more than 1 way to fix this
Fact 3: Arguing any of above facts is naive
So try find solutions and don't try be a tough guy just stating an opinion as facts.
You and others are being encouraged to point out potential flaws SPECIFIC to the timer system so that various parts of it that may not have been considered can be explored, it's called working out the kinks. The more an idea is explored in a thread the less guesswork the developers have to make about it's purpose, function, pros, cons, etc. which leaves them more room for consideration of working on it. Potential for bug is NOT specific to the suggested timer system. Potential for bugs is general and applicable to ANY suggestion, idea and or update so there's really no reason to bring it up. Again, if the potential for bugs was the sole determining factor for considering implementing ANY change, the game would still be on v1.0 because the potential for bugs will essentially ALWAYS be there. Moving along. Role does matter.
Depending on the content a group may or may not be able to get away with not having a DPS, Tank or Healer for a while.
There are forms of adjustments as previously mentioned: Did you not see these adjustments?
All of the above are adjustments that can be made on the fly rather than simply having static timers, including adjustments for connection issues/loading times. For clarification purposes: The timer would NOT start simply when one person activates the mod table, the dragon table or the boss door. The timer would start when the MAJORITY of the group enters the circle, until then, no timer.
For clarification purposes: The timer system would NOT apply in private queue groups (unless there was an option/checkbox for the private queue leader to select so that it would apply).
If the majority of the group wants to proceed with the content, the minority reasonably shouldn't simply be able to hold them up indefinitely. And again, the previously quoted timer adjustments would apply in this kind of situation which can extend the timer past 5 minutes. Cooldown timers and the vote system literally ALREADY exists in the game. The vote to extend timer would function just like vote to kick with the difference being instead of removing a player from the group if the vote passes, it would add "x" amount of time to a timer.
The developers literally are faced with coding things alongside the updates they come up with themselves as well as monitoring the changes ON THE PREVIEW SERVER to ensure they are working properly... It's surprising that various updates on the preview server that functioned badly were still pushed out the live servers...
Again, having to code things for a change/update are NOT specific to the timer system. Moving along. You are concerned about increased rewards reducing the trade house value of reward items correct?
The suggested reward increases have been for:
- RP (already of low trade house value).
- Companion/Mount Upgrade Tokens from the chests (NOT tradable so they have little to no effect on the price of the ones on the trade house).
- Trade Bars from the chests (NOT tradable, only the items purchased with them are. There are trade bar discount events so increasing trade bar rewards from chests slightly is not going to effect prices no more than the discount event does).
Point being item rewards that can't be sold on the trade house arguably have little to no effect on the value of trade house items. There is no other system to add other than the timer itself...
Currently if all players in a trial do not enter the circle (the one that appears when someone activates the gate), the content does not start anyway. With the timer system as long as the majority of the trial group (6 players) does not enter the circle, the timer will NOT start, giving time for the mechanics to be explained to the new player.
If the group tries the trial and fails with the new player the first time around, as things currently work (without the timer system), it takes only one person to stand outside of the circle for there to be time for the mechanics to explained to the new player.
When there's a message that a new player is in the instance it's a good idea to give a brief explanation of mechanics (have personally seen this happen multiple times), if not, don't expect the new player to know what to do. One player intentionally holding the rest of the group up when they voluntarily joined the RQ instead of not taking the leaver penalty is unfair to someone. Continually being held up by other players in RQ's is unfair to someone and can drive people away. XYZ can drive people away/be unfair, someone somewhere is going to feel that a specific change(s) is unfair/will drive people away.
The potential to drive people away/be unfair to someone is NOT specific to the timer system. Moving along.
P.S. your efforts, especially typing on a phone are respected and appreciated and misspellings are fine.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
So your asking cryptic to basically subvert the system that they have already created and maintained throughout all these years to help players prevent repercussions so that instead a player receives repercussions because you do not want to wait 15mins and there is no rules as to what players have to do during these 15mins annoys you. I mean OK you can make what ever suggestions you want but here's a suggestion to everyone looking to steamroller through every bit of content...
This is an MMO D&D game, slow down, say 'hi' make sure everyone knows there role and any mechanics that might be important, see if anyone has any doubts ease them into it, socialise a little, have a cup of tea. 15mins will pass quickly, if your like nah but I want to steamroll need to get that ad as fast as possible yeah you can leave if you cant be patient for 15mins but you may reciece a penalty for 2x the time and if you dont want to deal with the 15mins vote thing you can always try to set up a private group.
To those making the presumption that they are going to fail, voice your opinion before going afk at the very least maybe try the content if there's others that can make you feel at ease, let the team know if you think it's better to kick you try not to just be silent, you are totally free to do what you want for 15mins but it would be nice if you don't just go silent and leave everyone waiting in limbo.
To devs perhaps you can reduce the cooldown to intitate a vote by half, 4 hours is a little harsh, I think somewhere between 2-3 is the sweet spot, and maybe you could reduce 15mins wait to intitate a vote to kick to 10mins,as some are too impatient for 15mins please
As for ToS
So first response from my ticket yesterday
I have sent a response for further clarification as well and will post responses too