Mentioning possibly keeping players held up indefinitely was due to personally mentioning a possible flaw in the function of pausing the timer while a character is on the loading screen to give them more time to catch up.
A personal time extension wouldn't require a vote with the suggested timer system, extending the timer for someone else would.
Keep in mind the voting option (to extend a timer for someone else) was thought about and comprised in response to claims the system not being "fair", for XYZ reasons and could be an addition to the timer system though doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the system itself. It can be tested to see what players prefer (whether to have a voting option to extend a timer or not). It was also presented to show the possible flexibility of the timer system.
The timer system itself was formulated around the majority of a RQ group not having to wait 15 minutes to vote to try and get rid of players exhibiting hostile behavior towards them at the START of the content while players that are actually having connectivity/afk issues can possibly have the timer extended for them so as they are not removed from the group. There's quite the difference between player A going afk because they don't like the content then being removed within 5 minutes and player B dealing with an IRL issue, coming back from being afk and having the 5 minute timer extended for them while they actively try to reach the group. Player A doesn't want to be part of the group nor wants to take the leaver penalty, player B wants to be part of the group and deserves to possibly have the timer extended for them. The timer system would close the gap on hostile behavior while at the same time can be flexible enough to not penalize players that have legitimate connectivity/afk issues the same way as it would hostile players.
A/the problem with waiting 15 minutes before a vote kick can be tried is a player voluntarily choosing to RQ then voluntarily choosing not to run the content which holds the majority of the group up and that player also wanting to be removed from the group without penalty all the while the rest of the group has to wait. No matter how a person looks at it, the selfish wants of one outweighing the desire of the rest of the group to run the content is disproportionate. If the player actively ran the content until they were vote kicked, fine, though that's not what happens for the most part.
Waiting "x" amount of time for the queue, 15 minutes to try and vote kick and the time it takes to run the content gets more ridiculous as the total time climbs higher, especially when the available options are limited to taking the leaver penalty and the hostile player getting off without penalty or waiting 15 minutes and the hostile player still getting off without penalty.
Reducing the vote kick to 10 minutes essentially only allows the hostile player to get off without penalty sooner rather than later.
There are rules to playing the game itself, again the ToS states:
11. Users’ Rules of Conduct ... 11.2 Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 12, you agree not to take any of the following actions: ... “stalk,” threaten or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to another; ... impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the Game or in Interactive Areas (defined below) in the Service or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS), “spamming” or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or our employees; ... take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
and holding up the group simply because you don't like the content and refusing to take the leaver penalty can reasonably be inferred to fall within what a player agrees not to do (harass or cause discomfort to another;, harass or cause discomfort to another, take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service).
In regard to RQ's there's no "window to do whatever to the rest of the group" clause in the ToS and even though currently it takes for the most part 15 minutes to initiate a vote kick, player conduct in RQ's during that 15 minutes is not excluded from possibly violating the ToS.
Would like to see the actual initial message of the ticket prior to the response to see the exact terminology that was responded to.
Asking to be kicked at the very beginning of the content is different than running 15 minutes worth of the content then asking to be kicked.
Wanting something to done about hostile behavior in RQ groups is shared by multiple people, not just this user. The suggested timer system is supported by not just this user either and is a conscious effort to bring forth changes that would go against hostile behavior in RQ groups.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Mentioning possibly keeping players held up indefinitely was due to personally mentioning a possible flaw in the function of pausing the timer while a character is on the loading screen to give them more time to catch up.
A personal time extension wouldn't require a vote with the suggested timer system, extending the timer for someone else would.
Keep in mind the voting option (to extend a timer for someone else) was thought about and comprised in response to claims the system not being "fair", for XYZ reasons and could be an addition to the timer system though doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the system itself. It can be tested to see what players prefer (whether to have a voting option to extend a timer or not). It was also presented to show the possible flexibility of the timer system.
The timer system itself was formulated around the majority of a RQ group not having to wait 15 minutes to vote to try and get rid of players exhibiting hostile behavior towards them at the START of the content while players that are actually having connectivity/afk issues can possibly have the timer extended for them so as they are not removed from the group. There's quite the difference between player A going afk because they don't like the content then being removed within 5 minutes and player B dealing with an IRL issue, coming back from being afk and having the 5 minute timer extended for them while they actively try to reach the group. Player A doesn't want to be part of the group nor wants to take the leaver penalty, player B wants to be part of the group and deserves to possibly have the timer extended for them. The timer system would close the gap on hostile behavior while at the same time can be flexible enough to not penalize players that have legitimate connectivity/afk issues the same way as it would hostile players.
A/the problem with waiting 15 minutes before a vote kick can be tried is a player voluntarily choosing to RQ then voluntarily choosing not to run the content which holds the majority of the group up and that player also wanting to be removed from the group without penalty all the while the rest of the group has to wait. No matter how a person looks at it, the selfish wants of one outweighing the desire of the rest of the group to run the content is disproportionate. If the player actively ran the content until they were vote kicked, fine, though that's not what happens for the most part.
Waiting "x" amount of time for the queue, 15 minutes to try and vote kick and the time it takes to run the content gets more ridiculous as the total time climbs higher, especially when the available options are limited to taking the leaver penalty and the hostile player getting off without penalty or waiting 15 minutes and the hostile player still getting off without penalty.
Reducing the vote kick to 10 minutes essentially only allows the hostile player to get off without penalty sooner rather than later.
There are rules to playing the game itself, again the ToS states:
11. Users’ Rules of Conduct ... 11.2 Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 12, you agree not to take any of the following actions: ... “stalk,” threaten or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to another; ... impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the Game or in Interactive Areas (defined below) in the Service or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS), “spamming” or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or our employees; ... take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
and holding up the group simply because you don't like the content and refusing to take the leaver penalty can reasonably be inferred to fall within what a player agrees not to do (harass or cause discomfort to another;, harass or cause discomfort to another, take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service).
In regard to RQ's there's no "window to do whatever to the rest of the group" clause in the ToS and even though currently it takes for the most part 15 minutes to initiate a vote kick, player conduct in RQ's during that 15 minutes is not excluded from possibly violating the ToS.
Would like to see the actual initial message of the ticket prior to the response to see the exact terminology that was responded to.
Asking to be kicked at the very beginning of the content is different than running 15 minutes worth of the content then asking to be kicked.
Wanting something to done about hostile behavior in RQ groups is shared by multiple people, not just this user. The suggested timer system is supported by not just this user either and is a conscious effort to bring forth changes that would go against hostile behavior in RQ groups.
I know the issues you have with the 15mins, but that's the system we have to work with right now, by calling others hostile when they actually aren't doing anything is gaslighting while it's not helpful that some do go totally afk but this isn't for the devs to police it would seem they would prefer we police ourselves in regard to which is why they use the word 'perfered'.
The current system in its current form address alot of important issues that may occur the only issue is the wait time but that is a double edge sword. Which again I think there some very valid reasons why we have what we have and the best we really hope for is to encourage players to not go afk.
I knew you wouldn't be content with the response ofcourse even I wasn't as it did fully address the issue which againmis why I have followed up with further questions to them and will continue to share the responses If the next response is also NOT satisfactory I will be happy to pass along your exact message above. I did also make sure I sent a link to this thread just incase they want to come and see player responses themselves.
Currently however as things stand leaving an instance can be seen as being afk and being afk in and off itself it is not hostile behavior and asking to be removed from content is a reasonable if you do not want to take a penalty and it should be OK with everyone else according to the ticket response.
Again you can't claim people are violating ToS you can point out the vague wording but you should send in your own ticket if you feel something isn't right, I will totally agree that the wording is too ambiguous but I can't agree that the ToS is talking at all about what you think it's talking about. I believe it mostly talking about hacking when it's talking about disrupting the Service, it's not about being afk or not wanting to run content it's not about dungeon or anything like that.
Again il post and follow up responses I get from.my ticket but till than best to just try to encourage player to be better
I seem to be having issues responding to this thread
I know the issues you have with the 15mins, but that's the system we have to work with right now, by calling others hostile when they actually aren't doing anything is gaslighting while it's not helpful that some do go totally afk but this isn't for the devs to police it would seem they would prefer we police ourselves in regard to which is why they use the word 'perfered'.
The current system in its current form addresses alot of important issues that may occur the only issue is the wait time but that is a double edge sword. Which again I think there some very valid reasons why we have what we have and the best we really hope for is to encourage players to not go afk.
I knew you wouldn't be content with the response ofcourse even I wasn't as it didn't fully address the issue which againmis why I have followed up with further questions to them and will continue to share the responses If the next response is also NOT satisfactory I will be happy to pass along your exact message above. I did also make sure I sent a link to this thread just incase they want to come and see player responses themselves.
Currently however as things stand leaving an instance can be seen as being afk and being afk in and off itself it is not hostile behavior and asking to be removed from content is a reasonable if you do not want to take a penalty and it should be OK with everyone else according to the ticket response.
Again you can't claim people are violating ToS you can point out the vague wording but you should send in your own ticket if you feel something isn't right, I will totally agree that the wording is too ambiguous but I can't agree that the ToS is talking at all about what you think it's talking about. I believe it mostly talking about hacking when it's talking about disrupting the Service, it's not about being afk or not wanting to run content it's not about dungeon or anything like that.
Again il post any follow up responses I get from.my ticket but till than best to just try to encourage player to be better
Also to be clear being afk or choosing to silent while other try to run content while this isn't hostile behavior it's also is frowned apon however they may sometimes be valid reasons for it as well so again everyone try ton communicate better in dungeons and trials for everyone's sake
I know the issues you have with the 15mins, but that's the system we have to work with right now, by calling others hostile when they actually aren't doing anything is gaslighting
It may be the system players have to currently work with though it surely does not have to remain that way.
hostile hŏs′təl, -tīl″ adjective
- Of, relating to, or characteristic of an enemy. - Feeling or showing enmity or ill will. - Being in opposition; opposed.
Players intentionally and even unintentionally holding up the group are indeed being hostile towards the rest of the group, they are in opposition, they are preventing the rest of the group from proceeding, they don't want to run/can't run the content while the rest of the group does/can... hostile...
Being hostile does not have to include violence, simply being in opposition to something is sufficient.
The current system in its current form addresses alot of important issues that may occur the only issue is the wait time but that is a double edge sword.
The current system allows for hostile players to hold up the rest of the group without penalty while if someone from the rest of the group wanted to leave, they would receive the leaver penalty instead when they at were at first for running the content and the hostile player had no intention of running said content.
That's like someone committing a crime and one of the victims then being arrested while the person that committed the crime walks free.
Currently however as things stand leaving an instance can be seen as being afk and being afk in and off itself it is not hostile behavior and asking to be removed from content is a reasonable if you do not want to take a penalty and it should be OK with everyone else according to the ticket response.
Being afk for whatever reason prevents the rest of the group from proceeding, hostile. Asking to be removed from RQ content at the beginning requires a 15 minute wait of the rest of the group, also they can't proceed, hostile. Disagreeing on the forums, hostile.
The ticket response does not show what you initially sent. Depending on how you worded what you sent could have influenced the language of the response which is why what you initially sent was requested to be shown as well to give the whole story, not just one side.
Again you can't claim people are violating ToS you can point out the vague wording but you should send in your own ticket if you feel something isn't right, I will totally agree that the wording is too ambiguous but I can't agree that the ToS is talking at all about what you think it's talking about. I believe it mostly talking about hacking when it's talking about disrupting the Service, it's not about being afk or not wanting to run content it's not about dungeon or anything like that.
You have made various claims yourself, can no one else make a claim(s) as well?
take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
Is holding up a group not prohibiting other users from enjoying the game?
Based on the wording alone the claim IS being made that intentionally holding up a RQ group is against the ToS.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
That's a surprisingly long discussion considering that a person can be kicked after only 5 minutes after joining the instance and not 15 minutes. 15 minutes is for voting to abandon the instance.
I guess conversation here went out of topic. I guess time to call forum special forces. @kreatyve, @ambisinisterr or @nitocris83 . If possible either shut down or remove out of topic comments. Thanks in adnvance.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
I know the issues you have with the 15mins, but that's the system we have to work with right now, by calling others hostile when they actually aren't doing anything is gaslighting
It may be the system players have to currently work with though it surely does not have to remain that way.
hostile hŏs′təl, -tīl″ adjective
- Of, relating to, or characteristic of an enemy. - Feeling or showing enmity or ill will. - Being in opposition; opposed.
Players intentionally and even unintentionally holding up the group are indeed being hostile towards the rest of the group, they are in opposition, they are preventing the rest of the group from proceeding, they don't want to run/can't run the content while the rest of the group does/can... hostile...
Being hostile does not have to include violence, simply being in opposition to something is sufficient.
The current system in its current form addresses alot of important issues that may occur the only issue is the wait time but that is a double edge sword.
The current system allows for hostile players to hold up the rest of the group without penalty while if someone from the rest of the group wanted to leave, they would receive the leaver penalty instead when they at were at first for running the content and the hostile player had no intention of running said content.
That's like someone committing a crime and one of the victims then being arrested while the person that committed the crime walks free.
Currently however as things stand leaving an instance can be seen as being afk and being afk in and off itself it is not hostile behavior and asking to be removed from content is a reasonable if you do not want to take a penalty and it should be OK with everyone else according to the ticket response.
Being afk for whatever reason prevents the rest of the group from proceeding, hostile. Asking to be removed from RQ content at the beginning requires a 15 minute wait of the rest of the group, also they can't proceed, hostile. Disagreeing on the forums, hostile.
The ticket response does not show what you initially sent. Depending on how you worded what you sent could have influenced the language of the response which is why what you initially sent was requested to be shown as well to give the whole story, not just one side.
Again you can't claim people are violating ToS you can point out the vague wording but you should send in your own ticket if you feel something isn't right, I will totally agree that the wording is too ambiguous but I can't agree that the ToS is talking at all about what you think it's talking about. I believe it mostly talking about hacking when it's talking about disrupting the Service, it's not about being afk or not wanting to run content it's not about dungeon or anything like that.
You have made various claims yourself, can no one else make a claim(s) as well?
take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
Is holding up a group not prohibiting other users from enjoying the game?
Based on the wording alone the claim IS being made that intentionally holding up a RQ group is against the ToS.
By your own definition you have now placed yourself in an undefendable position where by your own standards you can be xlassed as the hostile player. Now you may not believe if but I'm looking a this trying to understand the constructive reasons why the devs have decided to go with the current system, I'm not here to call others hostile and play pointing fingers, I'm here giving my opinion why we have the system we do have and yes to see if there's ways it can be improved.
Perhaps I need to really spell out how the current system works, why 15mins is a thing? From the moment a group set foot into any given dungeon/trial a timer begins for everyone already, a timer that can't be reset without loading a totally new instance, now what is that 15min timer preventing you doing? It is preventing you initiated a vote to kick or a vote to abandon, it preventing people taking one look at a player intiating a vote to remove said player, it prevent people kicking some just because its taking them a while to load in, it is also preventing a small group of players abusing the escaping dungeons without consequences mechanic, i can go on and I will, now you enter into a dungeon or trial and yes you know have 2 hard choices and 1 soft choice, 1 attempt the content given or 2 leave and take a penalty. And the soft choice is 15mins before any vote can be cast during which time you have more choices, be a decent human and attempt to communicate and possibly workout if the content is doable, give it shot, or yes sit afk or sadly yes go and do something outside the instance for 15mins, every player has these choices to make for themselves, the timer will tick away and once 15mins are up everyone can make vote to kick or they can even choose to not kick and continue to communicate perhaps making the person waste a further 15mins at which point it would be equivalent to taking a ban any way, if someone is kicked the entire group can than leave without a penalty or they can choose to find a replacement.
No one should be forced to stay in content they do not enjoy.
Also again everyone has the choice to premake their group to avoid said issues everyone, if you are going into a random group no one else's needs trumps anyone else's if your not happy about something try to resolve it with the player's in the group before moaning one way or the other, while there are some who may want to just sit quite and wait to be kicked, rather than even attempt certain content, no one can know another random person's circumstances with out time to communicate, again sometimes communication is also completely impossible ofcourse due to uncontrollable language barriers. There's no point getting frustrated and angry in any circumstances. Everyone should just take the time to decide as a group what the best course of action.
Know let's also be clear what's the difference between the public and private random queues? Other than one of them requires more communication to set up and generally doesn't have to worry about the vote system at all, if for whatever reason you you can leave at a moments notice risking ofcourse that less and less people choose to want to group with you, you get the same content, the same rewards, the same ad, it has the potential to run smoothly and more effectively as long as people take the time to communicate properly, again the same thing that can help public games go smoother.
Communication is key everyone should be trying better to communicate, if communication breaks down or isn't even possible than yes vote to kick system can come into play, remember as soon as player has been kicked from a public group everyone gets to leave or find a new player without any penalties except the person who initiated a vote this sounds like it's intended to discouraging player targeting.
Now I know your going to try to nit pic everything iv said and try to word things to make it look luke your new timer idea looks to be a solution to some people's issues, I don't think risking penalising players unnecessarily is in anyway a fair system for a public group. Especially if you could have taken steps to avoid such issues altogether already, we will never please everyone ofcourse but playing around with timere that automatically penalises is a double edge sword and if said time ends in voting than I don't see the issue and yes if your allowed to voice why you think it should be changed i can do the same as to why I think it's fine as it is.
It does come down to its not broke so don't fix it. And I know you don't agree and you going to say why you don't go go for it this my final post on the matter I think Iv said all that I need to say and I will leave you with a further clarification that ToS doesn't mean what you think it does
The last time a vote kick was initiated by this user was over 4 years ago. Back then both vote functions for this user would not be available until at least 15 minutes had passed, which was one of reasons vote kicks weren’t initiated that often, just voted on if someone else initiated.
The topic remains and has been the same for the most part, hostile behavior of one player(s) holding up the rest of the group.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
If the majority of the RQ group wants to run the content while the minority of the group doesn’t, the minority is being hostile towards what the majority wants to do. Yes both groups are being hostile towards each other though in RQ’s players sign up to run randomly selected content.
If players don’t want to risk content that they don’t like, they can specifically queue for content although they won’t receive the bonus RAD though will still receive chest rewards. Players arguably for the most part want to RQ for the RAD though don’t want to run all the content which is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Personally not interested in improving the current system. If parts of the suggested timer system are utilized (with permission), then fine though personally developing the idea as pretty much a separate system.
The current timer need not be explained. Part of the problem is it takes 5 minutes (apparently) to initiate a vote kick which then has a 4 hour cooldown. Reducing the cooldown increases the risk of abuse of discriminating against players (lower ilvl, slower moving, class choice, etc.), while leaving it where it currently is can leave players that run considerably run multiple RQ’s in a play session from being armed against hostile players (afk, leaving the instance though not returning, not actively running the content/participating poorly i.e. only using at-wills/encounter powers, intentionally not keeping up with the group, etc.).
There are and have been instances where players in a RQ group did not have a vote kick to get rid of a hostile player(s) that were just standing around, outside the instance doing things in other zones, purposely not keeping up, that’s not good.
No one is forced to run content they don’t like though the same players that don’t like the content that is chosen in the RQ arguably also don’t want to take the leaver penalty so they ask to be vote kicked so that they can immediately queue again, which is another problem. Again, if players don’t want to risk content that they don’t like, they can specifically queue for content although they won’t receive the bonus RAD though will still get chest rewards. No one is forced to RQ either, they are various ways to get AD directly.
The leaver penalty is in place for those that voluntarily RQ, accept the queue, then for whatever reason don’t want to run the content. Asking to be vote kicked circumvents the leaver penalty which is arguably abusing game mechanics (circumventing a penalty). Also initiating a vote kick on a player applies a 4 hour cooldown, if the vote succeeds the hostile player gets away without penalty though the vote kick initiator is penalized.
A player outside of the instance for 5 minutes automatically being removed from the group and receiving the leaver penalty so no one in the rest of the group has to use a vote kick makes sense and isn’t unreasonable. 5 minutes can seem like a life time when you can’t proceed in the RQ content because of 1 or more players holding up the group.
A player that hasn’t reached the rest of the group in 5 minutes automatically being removed from the group and receiving the leaver penalty so no one in the rest of the group has to use a vote kick makes sense and isn’t unreasonable. In RQ content each section (campfire) arguably isn’t even 5 minutes apart (even with the slowest class/classes) so it shouldn’t take that long anyway.
A private queue group cannot select a RQ… RQ’s are not available to private groups because players could just keep grouping and leaving without penalty until they get the easier/preferred content.
Again, the messages that the person that sent the ticket in are not shown, it is not known exactly what was stated to garner the particular responses.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
I don't know how it can be made more clear it literally doesn't even matter what I specifically asked the matter regarding ToS is clear as day with that last response.
The ToS doesn't deal with player etiquette in dungeons at all it has nothing to do with that, GMs recieve a report when ever someone is kicked from the group they decide from that point if any further actions need to be taken, system is working as intended.
Please feel free to send In your own ticket as well ofcourse
The ToS is in regards to account selling, exploitation, third party applications and other matters relating to managing an account. This is clear as day, so please don't misrepresent ToS.
They have internal manual system for dealing with things related to mechanics, being afk and uncooperative behaviour, so again working as intended.
It was requested that the initial message to customer be displayed, not the responses to the responses. The initial message to customer service is essentially the most important yet still hasn’t been provided, especially being that the focus seems to have been AFK players rather than players intentionally holding up a RQ group, preventing them from enjoying the game. You pretty much showed everything except that initial message.
Essentially no one stated that asking to be vote kicked or leaving an instance was against the ToS. What was stated was players intentionally holding up the group (whether being afk/outside the instance doing whatever/not entering the circle) clearly going against “take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.” of the ToS.
The ToS may focus on particular things though that does not simply exclude everything else. CS deals with reports from players, they wouldn’t deal with automatically kicking a player for leaving an instance or automatically kicking a player going afk, the developers would deal with that. Arguably for the most part if there isn’t a player report/ticket, CS doesn’t take action.
The issue is when players intentionally hold up the group and other players must use a vote kick to try and get rid of them while the hostile player gets to immediately queue again without penalty. RQ’s will select the content, not the player and the bonus reward of RAD is for completing random content. RQ’ing with the intent of not running particular content is ridiculous, queue for specific content that you like and get the RAD from the chest(s) at the end.
The suggested timer system will handle two specific behaviors, leaving the instance and not returning (within 5 minutes) and not keeping up with the group without players having to use a vote kick.
Players that run lots of RQ’s arguably don’t want to use a 4 hour cooldown vote kick simply on a hostile player that won’t return to the instance/enter the gather your party circle. A disconnected player, sure. Underequipped/inexperienced player, ok. A player being a jerk because they RQ’d with the intent of not running all the content, not so much.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
You claimed it went against ToS and you literally refusing to see the main point what ever dude this discussion is done go put in your own ticket you will get the same response
As far as someone wanting to leave without penalty, if they are vote kicked, fine, in the meantime before the vote kick they should actively run the content. Though if they are not vote kicked and they proceed to exhibit negative/hostile behavior (not actively running the content, - exiting the instance, - holding the group "hostage", - "disconnecting"), not fine and they should receive the leaver penalty.
Of course every message EXCEPT the one that was requested (initial message to CS) was shown.
There are a lot of players that leave the area of the RTQ/ RADQ but do not leave party. We can only vote to kick a player once every 4 hours. Just recently [PLAYER] joined RTQ and said kick me from the start. Then he left the area but did not leave party. After 2 minutes he disconnected but still in party. Can something be done to discourage this type of behavior? He is not the only person that does this.
The suggested timer system literally would have removed that player from the group and kept a vote kick from being used in that situation.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
The "issues" brought up in regard to the timer system were met with a resolution/response and then they were repeatedly responded to with the same issues as if they hadn't been addressed. Not acknowledging that responses to the issues were made doesn't make them go away. Simply stating that the provided resolutions/responses "won't fix" the issues without also providing supporting details, information, evidence, etc. to support the claims is NOT a reasonable argument. Also stating opinions and making gross claims without supporting information is also NOT a reasonable argument, especially against facts.
The claim that asking to be kicked does not disrupt the group is false. In most cases it takes 15 minute BEFORE a vote kick can be initiated, that's 15 minutes the group could have gotten a replacement and been well into the content had the pouty player simply taken the leaver penalty.
There are those that think it is fair or reasonable for one player to be able to force the rest of the group to wait 15 minutes to try and kick them while they stand around/roam outside of the instance just because they don't like the RQ content that pops, it is not, though they are entitled to their opinion no matter how unsubstantiated it is.
It's funny that some players tout that they are forced to RQ for RAD/rewards though don't keep that same energy and contradict themselves when it comes down to them not wanting to run the same content that they say they are forced to run in the first place...
There are some that disagree with the timer system, of course some would, ESPECIALLY if it will target them for their intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group because they do not like the content that pops, again, they are entitled to their opinion though that opinion is against the ToS being that it is preventing the other 4/9 other players from enjoying the game.
11.2 Without limiting the foregoing, in addition to the User Content rules set forth in Section 12, you agree not to take any of the following actions:
... “stalk,” threaten or otherwise harass or cause discomfort to another; ... impede or disrupt the Service or the normal flow of game play or dialogue in the Game or in Interactive Areas (defined below) in the Service or use vulgar language, abusiveness, use of excessive shouting (ALL CAPS), “spamming” or any other disruptive or detrimental methods in an attempt to disturb other users or our employees; ... take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
Does intentionally holding up a RQ group not go against any of the above, quoted in bold terms of service? It in fact does, so again, if you don't like the RQ content that pops, take the leaver penalty because if you don't you are clearly going against the ToS multiple times over by griefing the other 4/9 players.
So now things have shifted here. It is no longer just differing opinions, but now a particular side of opinions unambiguously going against the ToS... The suggested timer system (in its current iteration) would at most grant a 30 minute leaver penalty to players while breaking the terms could can result in a penalty far greater... Which is worse, a 30 minute queue timeout or a ban from being able to play the game at all? Something to think about.
No matter how players feel about RQ's if expressing your dislike about the content involves you going against the terms of service then prepare yourselves to at some point be actioned against by Cryptic.
Here you go, you saying 'There are some that disagree with the timer system, of course some would, ESPECIALLY if it will target them for their intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group because they do not like the content that pops, again, they are entitled to their opinion though that opinion is against the ToS being that it is preventing the other 4/9 other players from enjoying the game.' ToS has been clarified and has nothing to do with the above quoted statement.
And so we are all clear as day
'Uncooperative' this can be taken to mean anyone holding up the group for what ever reason...
'Manually investgated' - when you vote to kick someone, you have so select 1 of 3 options Away from Keyboard, Dissconnected or Harassment, presumably this sends a automated message of some kind to the GMs at which he point they investigate to see if the matter needs ro be taken further or not, one can not assume what the GM consider to be servee enough to warrant further action ofcourse as this information is not written down for players to check.(perhaps there should be another option directly labaled as 'Uncooperative'.)
It is 'preferred' that we use the vote system however any who do not wish to use it may take a 30 min ban.
They want us to be using this so we should be asking why?
The current system has potential of rooting out and addressing possible issues people may have, I'm not assuming it is fixing alot but they must be getting valuable data some way from it, again not perfect could certainly do with fine tuning.
Your new timer will just hand out penalties and force everyone who doesn't want to do something into the whole waiting for queue time loop (I sure you will come up with an answer to this, and your welcome to)
Again your free to make what ever suggestions you want, as the devs may see and change things, but I think.lets improve what we have before go ripping the guts out of something that isn't broken.
My suggestion for devs, utilising the system already in place, is the following:
Add an option to the vote to kick system called 'Uncooperative'. Give us the option to vote to kick ourselves (with a cooldown ofcourse). Reduce how long with have to wait before we can use the vote to kick system. (10mins RDQ/RADQ/RSQ, 5mins RTQ/ADHQ) Add an option to send a more detailed report (this can help be a time sink during the alloted time frame), this should probably be done in a way so that all players in the group get this option either before/during/after casting a vote, totally 100% optional ofcourse. Reduce the 4hour cooldown for using the vote to kick system. (2-3hours) A friendly code of conduct/dungeon etiquette policy, which is fair and outlines things like using the kick system, hopefully wouldn't hurt anyone.
Here you go, you saying 'There are some that disagree with the timer system, of course some would, ESPECIALLY if it will target them for their intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group because they do not like the content that pops, again, they are entitled to their opinion though that opinion is against the ToS being that it is preventing the other 4/9 other players from enjoying the game.' ToS has been clarified and has nothing to do with the above quoted statement.
No where was it stated that asking to be vote kicked is against the ToS. Though what was stated is intentionally holding up a group is against the ToS (or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Games).
you agree not to take any of the following actions: take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
SHOW YOUR ORIGINAL MESSAGE TO CUSTOMER SERVICE
Until you post THAT message please leave it alone. You stated that you would be transparent so show ALL the messages from beginning (starting with your original message) to the end. Should be simple since you clearly can put all the others messages.
CS simply stated that particular issues are manually investigated and that there is a separate action in regard to players reports. It was NOT stated by CS that ANY of the issues presented by this user were not against the ToS so please cut it out.
If a player returns to the instance within 5 minutes and keeps up with the group they wouldn't be actioned against by the timer system plain and simple and should be simple enough to accomplish. Keeping up with the group is a fundamental part of running content, especially when for the most part they have to be navigated section by section and the group should be within close proximity anyway. Also there are parts where the party has to gather before proceeding. Actively participating is also a fundamental part of running content. The timer wouldn't just hand out penalties so please stop making such a ridiculous claim. If you aren't prepared to run the RQ content, don't RQ. If for some reason you can't/won't run the content, take the leaver penalty. Players want others to wait to kick them though don't want to wait out the leave penalty, hmph.
The bare bones of the system are already there, timers already exist in the game.
There are a number of players whom have grown tired of waiting for this and that player, for this and that reason, over and over and having to use their vote kick at the BEGINNING of an RQ. RQ'ing without the intent of running particular content AND also not wanting to take the leaver penalty is ridiculous as well. Queue for specific content and players pretty much won't have to be concerned about running content that they don't like and or imposing on the rest of the group in regard to queues although of course players don't want to hear that truth.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Lol you clearly can't read dude or are not reading and you cutting things out off your quote to make it seem like you didnt say it but its still there in my quoting of you,whatever dude go put in a ticket yourself maybe than you will get the picture the ToS doesn't deal with this and don't try and say you didn't try to use the ToS which still doing because you can't accept it doesn't mean what you think means so at this point you clearly need to go have customer service explain the ToS to you personally.
take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.
"intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group" as previously described by this user is refusing to enter the gather your party circle or leaving the instance then going to do things in another zone. It has absolutely nothing to do with vote kicking or asking to be vote kicked. Both behaviors would automatically be handled by the suggested timer system without players having to vote. Again it was not stated by this user that asking to be vote kicked was against the ToS.
Apparently since you put so much emphasis on afk, CS responding stating "that the ToS is actually focused more on account selling, exploitation, third-party applications and other matters related to managing the account". CS did not state that what is focused on is the only thing that matters or can be actioned against, you assumed that. Throughout the ToS there are things that have absolutely nothing to do with "account selling, exploitation, third-party applications and other matters related to managing the account" such as the use of vulgar language. Apparently by your logic and even though it is listed as a prohibited action, the use of vulgar language is not against the ToS which is completely wrong.
As much as you type, apparently it is you that has a hard time comprehending the messages from CS and posts from this user, at least in part.
Once again, show your ORIGINAL message to CS to be transparent and essentially show how much emphasis you put on afk rather than intentional hostile behavior towards the RQ group, or chill out with it.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Omg I don't belive you don't get it, no one can reasonably determine the difference between 'intentionally holding up a Queue' and being 'afk', both cases the player is being 'Uncooperative', you keep saying anyone holding up the queue is being 'hostile', this means 'intentional/accidental' afk/Uncooperative behaviour. Do you really bot get it, You need to take this up with CS yourself at this point.
You think anything that is preventing you from starting a boss is 'hostile'. And due to circular reasoning you think this is against ToS, but you are wrong....
Go ask cryptic what the ToS is covering yourself make sure you tell you need it totally spelt out for you...
'Uncooperative behaviour' is a purposefully broad term it should be very clear, this means anything from being afk to arguing about not wanting to go in, will be classed as 'Uncooperative behaviour'
BTW this is the message you keep crying about not seeing, again it doesn't change anything at all. Now go speak with them yourself.
It can be determined, quite easily in a number of cases actually.
If a player in the same RQ group as this user holds up the party they are personally asked why they won't return to the instance or why they won't enter the gather party circle. A number of times they have responded with things along the lines of "I don't like this dungeon", "[PLAYER] is too low ilvl", sometimes they don't respond at all, sometimes they just go afk, sometimes they simply leave the instance and go to another zone or "disconnect", sometimes they even mock the group by jumping in and out of the gather your party circle so that the timer will keep resetting.
CS can see whether the behavior of a player in regard to RQ's is infrequent or not, what RQ content the behavior occurs in (such as if the behavior occurs in easier as well has longer content or just the longer content), etc. which is why additionally the player is also reported by selecting "other" or "gameplay harassment" and in the empty text box a description of what occurred is filled in so that CS may review things to take action. When a player accepts the RQ invitation they are essentially accepting any content that is chosen though if they don't like the content they should arguably take the leaver penalty. Asking the rest of the group to vote kick you (which is fine) and it passing allows you to immediately queue again without consequence while someone from the group has to use a vote kick. Although, in the meantime of asking to be vote kicked, refusing to return to the instance/actively participate/enter the gather your party circle is an intentional hostile act against the rest of the group which can prevent them from enjoying the game which again, is stated in the ToS as a prohibited action.
Just because with asking to be vote kicked "shouldn't be any problems" doesn't mean that in every case there will not be any problems and just because the first part may be true (asking to be vote kicked being fine) does not mean that anything else outside of asking to be vote kicked, such as being afk, etc., cannot be actioned against, which seems to be the part that for whatever reason is not being accepted.
The suggested timer system will help prevent CS from having to review reports in regard to hostile behavior in RQ's and later rather than sooner take action being that not returning to the instance or entering the "circle" will automatically result in being removed from the group and receiving a leaver penalty. Players shouldn't be faced with waiting 5+ minutes to try and determine if a player is going to run the RQ, especially if they are unresponsive and especially if it will cost them a vote kick at the beginning of the content. If they are responsive and simply need a bit more time sure, the system can be tweaked to allow room for that.
This user has stated multiple times that asking to be vote kicked was fine though intentionally holding up the group/preventing players from enjoying the game is not, as stated in the ToS. If you want to continue harping about something you made up feel free to do so though this user will not address having stated vote kicking being ok while intentionally holding up a group is not again.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Are you serious I made up, your the person who is claiming anyone who is preventing you from moving on is being hostile and trying to claim any behavior that makes you have to wait is likewise against the ToS which it isn't, you don't want to accept the truth of it but yeah by your own words you are painting everyone with the same brush you dont want to accept it fine just keep making your self look stupid.
One more time, if 4/9 players want to run the content and one does not, that one is being hostile towards what the majority of the group wants as well as the majority being hostile towards the one. "Hostile" is simply an adjective in this case, it doesn't mean bad or good, simply being in opposition or "uncooperative".
In regard to RQ's, the claim has been made that preventing other players from enjoying the game is against the ToS, which it is. Not being able to enjoy the game in regard to RQ's as described in this thread takes the form of the majority of the group not being able to proceed forward due to the minority of the group not doing one or more of the following:
- leaving the group. - returning to the instance. - helping fight mobs. - entering the "circle".
which involves them having to wait. Simply being put in a position to wait due to the actions/non-actions of another player isn't against the ToS, when that wait is unreasonable and or stems from intentional behavior is when those actions/non-actions lean on the ToS. Pretty sure CS will agree with that statement though either way there are players that reasonably don't like being held up by the intentional behavior of other players in regard to RQ's and the suggested timer system was developed as a result.
One more time, the timer system will indiscriminately remove from the group any player that doesn't return to the instance/reach the "circle" within 5 minutes and will save/help save groups from having to use a vote kick at the beginning of the content. It can be tweaked to allow more time to aid players that actually intend to run the content, which would be reasonable. Those that don't want to run the content can simply ask to be vote kicked as a number of them already do though in the meantime they will also have to keep up with the rest of the group, fair enough.
One more time, if players don't want to run particular content listed under a particular RQ type they can queue for specific content that they prefer and get the rewards from the end chest(s) minus the RQ bonus. RQ's were designed to be random and players that accept and complete a RQ are rewarded with the bonus of RAD. Those that accept a RQ and don't want to run the content are arguably going against the design of RQ's themselves and is arguably why the leaver penalty exists, it helps prevent players from trying to cheese RQ's for the easier/shorter content without penalty though a number of players try and circumvent that penalty by wanting to be vote kicked.
ALL Rights Reserved for any and all suggestions, ideas, etc. from this user.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY "No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Quite a lot reading here. Pub RQ are... 9 out of 10 times, waste of time unfortunately. as many said here, ppl just leave if the map/dung/whatever is not short enough for them. No prob for skirmish though, you get Qed almost instantly and mostly there is no prob completing it.
I see it easy: more rAD for public RQs, ONLY 2 ATTEMPTS PER DAY for example to get the big rAD bonus each day (once the Q was accepted by user). So, once you enter, you should at least try it. No luck after 2 tries? Go premade for less rAD (zone, guild, etc) as many times as you want. Maybe this way more ppl will stay and try their best to get more rADs.
Quite a lot reading here. Pub RQ are... 9 out of 10 times, waste of time unfortunately. as many said here, ppl just leave if the map/dung/whatever is not short enough for them. No prob for skirmish though, you get Qed almost instantly and mostly there is no prob completing it.
I see it easy: more rAD for public RQs, ONLY 2 ATTEMPTS PER DAY for example to get the big rAD bonus each day (once the Q was accepted by user). So, once you enter, you should at least try it. No luck after 2 tries? Go premade for less rAD (zone, guild, etc) as many times as you want. Maybe this way more ppl will stay and try their best to get more rADs.
Yeah I would up the RAD definitely for RTQ and RADQ for your first attempt, make it 50k each that makes a lot of sense. Players can still abandon but the likelihood of players actually trying would be increased.
Comments
A personal time extension wouldn't require a vote with the suggested timer system, extending the timer for someone else would.
Keep in mind the voting option (to extend a timer for someone else) was thought about and comprised in response to claims the system not being "fair", for XYZ reasons and could be an addition to the timer system though doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the system itself. It can be tested to see what players prefer (whether to have a voting option to extend a timer or not). It was also presented to show the possible flexibility of the timer system.
The timer system itself was formulated around the majority of a RQ group not having to wait 15 minutes to vote to try and get rid of players exhibiting hostile behavior towards them at the START of the content while players that are actually having connectivity/afk issues can possibly have the timer extended for them so as they are not removed from the group. There's quite the difference between player A going afk because they don't like the content then being removed within 5 minutes and player B dealing with an IRL issue, coming back from being afk and having the 5 minute timer extended for them while they actively try to reach the group. Player A doesn't want to be part of the group nor wants to take the leaver penalty, player B wants to be part of the group and deserves to possibly have the timer extended for them. The timer system would close the gap on hostile behavior while at the same time can be flexible enough to not penalize players that have legitimate connectivity/afk issues the same way as it would hostile players.
A/the problem with waiting 15 minutes before a vote kick can be tried is a player voluntarily choosing to RQ then voluntarily choosing not to run the content which holds the majority of the group up and that player also wanting to be removed from the group without penalty all the while the rest of the group has to wait. No matter how a person looks at it, the selfish wants of one outweighing the desire of the rest of the group to run the content is disproportionate. If the player actively ran the content until they were vote kicked, fine, though that's not what happens for the most part.
Waiting "x" amount of time for the queue, 15 minutes to try and vote kick and the time it takes to run the content gets more ridiculous as the total time climbs higher, especially when the available options are limited to taking the leaver penalty and the hostile player getting off without penalty or waiting 15 minutes and the hostile player still getting off without penalty.
Reducing the vote kick to 10 minutes essentially only allows the hostile player to get off without penalty sooner rather than later.
There are rules to playing the game itself, again the ToS states: and holding up the group simply because you don't like the content and refusing to take the leaver penalty can reasonably be inferred to fall within what a player agrees not to do (harass or cause discomfort to another;, harass or cause discomfort to another, take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service).
In regard to RQ's there's no "window to do whatever to the rest of the group" clause in the ToS and even though currently it takes for the most part 15 minutes to initiate a vote kick, player conduct in RQ's during that 15 minutes is not excluded from possibly violating the ToS.
Would like to see the actual initial message of the ticket prior to the response to see the exact terminology that was responded to.
Asking to be kicked at the very beginning of the content is different than running 15 minutes worth of the content then asking to be kicked.
Wanting something to done about hostile behavior in RQ groups is shared by multiple people, not just this user. The suggested timer system is supported by not just this user either and is a conscious effort to bring forth changes that would go against hostile behavior in RQ groups.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The current system in its current form addresses alot of important issues that may occur the only issue is the wait time but that is a double edge sword. Which again I think there some very valid reasons why we have what we have and the best we really hope for is to encourage players to not go afk.
I knew you wouldn't be content with the response ofcourse even I wasn't as it didn't fully address the issue which againmis why I have followed up with further questions to them and will continue to share the responses If the next response is also NOT satisfactory I will be happy to pass along your exact message above. I did also make sure I sent a link to this thread just incase they want to come and see player responses themselves.
Currently however as things stand leaving an instance can be seen as being afk and being afk in and off itself it is not hostile behavior and asking to be removed from content is a reasonable if you do not want to take a penalty and it should be OK with everyone else according to the ticket response.
Again you can't claim people are violating ToS you can point out the vague wording but you should send in your own ticket if you feel something isn't right, I will totally agree that the wording is too ambiguous but I can't agree that the ToS is talking at all about what you think it's talking about. I believe it mostly talking about hacking when it's talking about disrupting the Service, it's not about being afk or not wanting to run content it's not about dungeon or anything like that.
Again il post any follow up responses I get from.my ticket but till than best to just try to encourage player to be better
Also to be clear being afk or choosing to silent while other try to run content while this isn't hostile behavior it's also is frowned apon however they may sometimes be valid reasons for it as well so again everyone try ton communicate better in dungeons and trials for everyone's sake
hostile
hŏs′təl, -tīl″
adjective
- Of, relating to, or characteristic of an enemy.
- Feeling or showing enmity or ill will.
- Being in opposition; opposed.
Players intentionally and even unintentionally holding up the group are indeed being hostile towards the rest of the group, they are in opposition, they are preventing the rest of the group from proceeding, they don't want to run/can't run the content while the rest of the group does/can... hostile...
Being hostile does not have to include violence, simply being in opposition to something is sufficient. When players come to odds with each other, especially when enjoyment of the game is being hindered, it IS for the staff/developers to police. The current system allows for hostile players to hold up the rest of the group without penalty while if someone from the rest of the group wanted to leave, they would receive the leaver penalty instead when they at were at first for running the content and the hostile player had no intention of running said content.
That's like someone committing a crime and one of the victims then being arrested while the person that committed the crime walks free. Being afk for whatever reason prevents the rest of the group from proceeding, hostile. Asking to be removed from RQ content at the beginning requires a 15 minute wait of the rest of the group, also they can't proceed, hostile. Disagreeing on the forums, hostile.
The ticket response does not show what you initially sent. Depending on how you worded what you sent could have influenced the language of the response which is why what you initially sent was requested to be shown as well to give the whole story, not just one side. You have made various claims yourself, can no one else make a claim(s) as well? Is holding up a group not prohibiting other users from enjoying the game?
Based on the wording alone the claim IS being made that intentionally holding up a RQ group is against the ToS.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
@kreatyve, @ambisinisterr or @nitocris83 . If possible either shut down or remove out of topic comments.
Thanks in adnvance.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Perhaps I need to really spell out how the current system works, why 15mins is a thing? From the moment a group set foot into any given dungeon/trial a timer begins for everyone already, a timer that can't be reset without loading a totally new instance, now what is that 15min timer preventing you doing? It is preventing you initiated a vote to kick or a vote to abandon, it preventing people taking one look at a player intiating a vote to remove said player, it prevent people kicking some just because its taking them a while to load in, it is also preventing a small group of players abusing the escaping dungeons without consequences mechanic, i can go on and I will, now you enter into a dungeon or trial and yes you know have 2 hard choices and 1 soft choice, 1 attempt the content given or 2 leave and take a penalty. And the soft choice is 15mins before any vote can be cast during which time you have more choices, be a decent human and attempt to communicate and possibly workout if the content is doable, give it shot, or yes sit afk or sadly yes go and do something outside the instance for 15mins, every player has these choices to make for themselves, the timer will tick away and once 15mins are up everyone can make vote to kick or they can even choose to not kick and continue to communicate perhaps making the person waste a further 15mins at which point it would be equivalent to taking a ban any way, if someone is kicked the entire group can than leave without a penalty or they can choose to find a replacement.
No one should be forced to stay in content they do not enjoy.
Also again everyone has the choice to premake their group to avoid said issues everyone, if you are going into a random group no one else's needs trumps anyone else's if your not happy about something try to resolve it with the player's in the group before moaning one way or the other, while there are some who may want to just sit quite and wait to be kicked, rather than even attempt certain content, no one can know another random person's circumstances with out time to communicate, again sometimes communication is also completely impossible ofcourse due to uncontrollable language barriers. There's no point getting frustrated and angry in any circumstances. Everyone should just take the time to decide as a group what the best course of action.
Know let's also be clear what's the difference between the public and private random queues? Other than one of them requires more communication to set up and generally doesn't have to worry about the vote system at all, if for whatever reason you you can leave at a moments notice risking ofcourse that less and less people choose to want to group with you, you get the same content, the same rewards, the same ad, it has the potential to run smoothly and more effectively as long as people take the time to communicate properly, again the same thing that can help public games go smoother.
Communication is key everyone should be trying better to communicate, if communication breaks down or isn't even possible than yes vote to kick system can come into play, remember as soon as player has been kicked from a public group everyone gets to leave or find a new player without any penalties except the person who initiated a vote this sounds like it's intended to discouraging player targeting.
Now I know your going to try to nit pic everything iv said and try to word things to make it look luke your new timer idea looks to be a solution to some people's issues, I don't think risking penalising players unnecessarily is in anyway a fair system for a public group. Especially if you could have taken steps to avoid such issues altogether already, we will never please everyone ofcourse but playing around with timere that automatically penalises is a double edge sword and if said time ends in voting than I don't see the issue and yes if your allowed to voice why you think it should be changed i can do the same as to why I think it's fine as it is.
It does come down to its not broke so don't fix it. And I know you don't agree and you going to say why you don't go go for it this my final post on the matter I think Iv said all that I need to say and I will leave you with a further clarification that ToS doesn't mean what you think it does
The topic remains and has been the same for the most part, hostile behavior of one player(s) holding up the rest of the group.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
If players don’t want to risk content that they don’t like, they can specifically queue for content although they won’t receive the bonus RAD though will still receive chest rewards. Players arguably for the most part want to RQ for the RAD though don’t want to run all the content which is trying to have their cake and eat it too.
Personally not interested in improving the current system. If parts of the suggested timer system are utilized (with permission), then fine though personally developing the idea as pretty much a separate system.
The current timer need not be explained. Part of the problem is it takes 5 minutes (apparently) to initiate a vote kick which then has a 4 hour cooldown. Reducing the cooldown increases the risk of abuse of discriminating against players (lower ilvl, slower moving, class choice, etc.), while leaving it where it currently is can leave players that run considerably run multiple RQ’s in a play session from being armed against hostile players (afk, leaving the instance though not returning, not actively running the content/participating poorly i.e. only using at-wills/encounter powers, intentionally not keeping up with the group, etc.).
There are and have been instances where players in a RQ group did not have a vote kick to get rid of a hostile player(s) that were just standing around, outside the instance doing things in other zones, purposely not keeping up, that’s not good.
No one is forced to run content they don’t like though the same players that don’t like the content that is chosen in the RQ arguably also don’t want to take the leaver penalty so they ask to be vote kicked so that they can immediately queue again, which is another problem. Again, if players don’t want to risk content that they don’t like, they can specifically queue for content although they won’t receive the bonus RAD though will still get chest rewards. No one is forced to RQ either, they are various ways to get AD directly.
The leaver penalty is in place for those that voluntarily RQ, accept the queue, then for whatever reason don’t want to run the content. Asking to be vote kicked circumvents the leaver penalty which is arguably abusing game mechanics (circumventing a penalty). Also initiating a vote kick on a player applies a 4 hour cooldown, if the vote succeeds the hostile player gets away without penalty though the vote kick initiator is penalized.
A player outside of the instance for 5 minutes automatically being removed from the group and receiving the leaver penalty so no one in the rest of the group has to use a vote kick makes sense and isn’t unreasonable. 5 minutes can seem like a life time when you can’t proceed in the RQ content because of 1 or more players holding up the group.
A player that hasn’t reached the rest of the group in 5 minutes automatically being removed from the group and receiving the leaver penalty so no one in the rest of the group has to use a vote kick makes sense and isn’t unreasonable. In RQ content each section (campfire) arguably isn’t even 5 minutes apart (even with the slowest class/classes) so it shouldn’t take that long anyway.
A private queue group cannot select a RQ… RQ’s are not available to private groups because players could just keep grouping and leaving without penalty until they get the easier/preferred content.
Again, the messages that the person that sent the ticket in are not shown, it is not known exactly what was stated to garner the particular responses.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
The ToS doesn't deal with player etiquette in dungeons at all it has nothing to do with that, GMs recieve a report when ever someone is kicked from the group they decide from that point if any further actions need to be taken, system is working as intended.
Please feel free to send In your own ticket as well ofcourse
The ToS is in regards to account selling, exploitation, third party applications and other matters relating to managing an account. This is clear as day, so please don't misrepresent ToS.
They have internal manual system for dealing with things related to mechanics, being afk and uncooperative behaviour, so again working as intended.
Essentially no one stated that asking to be vote kicked or leaving an instance was against the ToS. What was stated was players intentionally holding up the group (whether being afk/outside the instance doing whatever/not entering the circle) clearly going against “take any action that disrupts the Service or that negatively affects or may prohibit other users from enjoying the Website, the Games or any other aspect of the Service.” of the ToS.
The ToS may focus on particular things though that does not simply exclude everything else. CS deals with reports from players, they wouldn’t deal with automatically kicking a player for leaving an instance or automatically kicking a player going afk, the developers would deal with that. Arguably for the most part if there isn’t a player report/ticket, CS doesn’t take action.
The issue is when players intentionally hold up the group and other players must use a vote kick to try and get rid of them while the hostile player gets to immediately queue again without penalty. RQ’s will select the content, not the player and the bonus reward of RAD is for completing random content. RQ’ing with the intent of not running particular content is ridiculous, queue for specific content that you like and get the RAD from the chest(s) at the end.
The suggested timer system will handle two specific behaviors, leaving the instance and not returning (within 5 minutes) and not keeping up with the group without players having to use a vote kick.
Players that run lots of RQ’s arguably don’t want to use a 4 hour cooldown vote kick simply on a hostile player that won’t return to the instance/enter the gather your party circle. A disconnected player, sure. Underequipped/inexperienced player, ok. A player being a jerk because they RQ’d with the intent of not running all the content, not so much.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Here you go, you saying 'There are some that disagree with the timer system, of course some would, ESPECIALLY if it will target them for their intentional hostile behavior of holding up a RQ group because they do not like the content that pops, again, they are entitled to their opinion though that opinion is against the ToS being that it is preventing the other 4/9 other players from enjoying the game.' ToS has been clarified and has nothing to do with the above quoted statement.
And so we are all clear as day
'Uncooperative' this can be taken to mean anyone holding up the group for what ever reason...
'Manually investgated' - when you vote to kick someone, you have so select 1 of 3 options Away from Keyboard, Dissconnected or Harassment, presumably this sends a automated message of some kind to the GMs at which he point they investigate to see if the matter needs ro be taken further or not, one can not assume what the GM consider to be servee enough to warrant further action ofcourse as this information is not written down for players to check.(perhaps there should be another option directly labaled as 'Uncooperative'.)
It is 'preferred' that we use the vote system however any who do not wish to use it may take a 30 min ban.
They want us to be using this so we should be asking why?
The current system has potential of rooting out and addressing possible issues people may have, I'm not assuming it is fixing alot but they must be getting valuable data some way from it, again not perfect could certainly do with fine tuning.
Your new timer will just hand out penalties and force everyone who doesn't want to do something into the whole waiting for queue time loop (I sure you will come up with an answer to this, and your welcome to)
Again your free to make what ever suggestions you want, as the devs may see and change things, but I think.lets improve what we have before go ripping the guts out of something that isn't broken.
Add an option to the vote to kick system called 'Uncooperative'.
Give us the option to vote to kick ourselves (with a cooldown ofcourse).
Reduce how long with have to wait before we can use the vote to kick system. (10mins RDQ/RADQ/RSQ, 5mins RTQ/ADHQ)
Add an option to send a more detailed report (this can help be a time sink during the alloted time frame), this should probably be done in a way so that all players in the group get this option either before/during/after casting a vote, totally 100% optional ofcourse.
Reduce the 4hour cooldown for using the vote to kick system. (2-3hours)
A friendly code of conduct/dungeon etiquette policy, which is fair and outlines things like using the kick system, hopefully wouldn't hurt anyone.
Until you post THAT message please leave it alone. You stated that you would be transparent so show ALL the messages from beginning (starting with your original message) to the end. Should be simple since you clearly can put all the others messages.
CS simply stated that particular issues are manually investigated and that there is a separate action in regard to players reports. It was NOT stated by CS that ANY of the issues presented by this user were not against the ToS so please cut it out.
If a player returns to the instance within 5 minutes and keeps up with the group they wouldn't be actioned against by the timer system plain and simple and should be simple enough to accomplish. Keeping up with the group is a fundamental part of running content, especially when for the most part they have to be navigated section by section and the group should be within close proximity anyway. Also there are parts where the party has to gather before proceeding. Actively participating is also a fundamental part of running content. The timer wouldn't just hand out penalties so please stop making such a ridiculous claim. If you aren't prepared to run the RQ content, don't RQ. If for some reason you can't/won't run the content, take the leaver penalty. Players want others to wait to kick them though don't want to wait out the leave penalty, hmph.
The bare bones of the system are already there, timers already exist in the game.
There are a number of players whom have grown tired of waiting for this and that player, for this and that reason, over and over and having to use their vote kick at the BEGINNING of an RQ. RQ'ing without the intent of running particular content AND also not wanting to take the leaver penalty is ridiculous as well. Queue for specific content and players pretty much won't have to be concerned about running content that they don't like and or imposing on the rest of the group in regard to queues although of course players don't want to hear that truth.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Apparently since you put so much emphasis on afk, CS responding stating "that the ToS is actually focused more on account selling, exploitation, third-party applications and other matters related to managing the account". CS did not state that what is focused on is the only thing that matters or can be actioned against, you assumed that. Throughout the ToS there are things that have absolutely nothing to do with "account selling, exploitation, third-party applications and other matters related to managing the account" such as the use of vulgar language. Apparently by your logic and even though it is listed as a prohibited action, the use of vulgar language is not against the ToS which is completely wrong.
As much as you type, apparently it is you that has a hard time comprehending the messages from CS and posts from this user, at least in part.
Once again, show your ORIGINAL message to CS to be transparent and essentially show how much emphasis you put on afk rather than intentional hostile behavior towards the RQ group, or chill out with it.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Omg I don't belive you don't get it, no one can reasonably determine the difference between 'intentionally holding up a Queue' and being 'afk', both cases the player is being 'Uncooperative', you keep saying anyone holding up the queue is being 'hostile', this means 'intentional/accidental' afk/Uncooperative behaviour. Do you really bot get it, You need to take this up with CS yourself at this point.
You think anything that is preventing you from starting a boss is 'hostile'. And due to circular reasoning you think this is against ToS, but you are wrong....
Go ask cryptic what the ToS is covering yourself make sure you tell you need it totally spelt out for you...
'Uncooperative behaviour' is a purposefully broad term it should be very clear, this means anything from being afk to arguing about not wanting to go in, will be classed as 'Uncooperative behaviour'
BTW this is the message you keep crying about not seeing, again it doesn't change anything at all. Now go speak with them yourself.
If a player in the same RQ group as this user holds up the party they are personally asked why they won't return to the instance or why they won't enter the gather party circle. A number of times they have responded with things along the lines of "I don't like this dungeon", "[PLAYER] is too low ilvl", sometimes they don't respond at all, sometimes they just go afk, sometimes they simply leave the instance and go to another zone or "disconnect", sometimes they even mock the group by jumping in and out of the gather your party circle so that the timer will keep resetting.
CS can see whether the behavior of a player in regard to RQ's is infrequent or not, what RQ content the behavior occurs in (such as if the behavior occurs in easier as well has longer content or just the longer content), etc. which is why additionally the player is also reported by selecting "other" or "gameplay harassment" and in the empty text box a description of what occurred is filled in so that CS may review things to take action. When a player accepts the RQ invitation they are essentially accepting any content that is chosen though if they don't like the content they should arguably take the leaver penalty. Asking the rest of the group to vote kick you (which is fine) and it passing allows you to immediately queue again without consequence while someone from the group has to use a vote kick. Although, in the meantime of asking to be vote kicked, refusing to return to the instance/actively participate/enter the gather your party circle is an intentional hostile act against the rest of the group which can prevent them from enjoying the game which again, is stated in the ToS as a prohibited action.
Just because with asking to be vote kicked "shouldn't be any problems" doesn't mean that in every case there will not be any problems and just because the first part may be true (asking to be vote kicked being fine) does not mean that anything else outside of asking to be vote kicked, such as being afk, etc., cannot be actioned against, which seems to be the part that for whatever reason is not being accepted.
The suggested timer system will help prevent CS from having to review reports in regard to hostile behavior in RQ's and later rather than sooner take action being that not returning to the instance or entering the "circle" will automatically result in being removed from the group and receiving a leaver penalty. Players shouldn't be faced with waiting 5+ minutes to try and determine if a player is going to run the RQ, especially if they are unresponsive and especially if it will cost them a vote kick at the beginning of the content. If they are responsive and simply need a bit more time sure, the system can be tweaked to allow room for that.
This user has stated multiple times that asking to be vote kicked was fine though intentionally holding up the group/preventing players from enjoying the game is not, as stated in the ToS. If you want to continue harping about something you made up feel free to do so though this user will not address having stated vote kicking being ok while intentionally holding up a group is not again.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
In regard to RQ's, the claim has been made that preventing other players from enjoying the game is against the ToS, which it is. Not being able to enjoy the game in regard to RQ's as described in this thread takes the form of the majority of the group not being able to proceed forward due to the minority of the group not doing one or more of the following:
- leaving the group.
- returning to the instance.
- helping fight mobs.
- entering the "circle".
which involves them having to wait. Simply being put in a position to wait due to the actions/non-actions of another player isn't against the ToS, when that wait is unreasonable and or stems from intentional behavior is when those actions/non-actions lean on the ToS. Pretty sure CS will agree with that statement though either way there are players that reasonably don't like being held up by the intentional behavior of other players in regard to RQ's and the suggested timer system was developed as a result.
One more time, the timer system will indiscriminately remove from the group any player that doesn't return to the instance/reach the "circle" within 5 minutes and will save/help save groups from having to use a vote kick at the beginning of the content. It can be tweaked to allow more time to aid players that actually intend to run the content, which would be reasonable. Those that don't want to run the content can simply ask to be vote kicked as a number of them already do though in the meantime they will also have to keep up with the rest of the group, fair enough.
One more time, if players don't want to run particular content listed under a particular RQ type they can queue for specific content that they prefer and get the rewards from the end chest(s) minus the RQ bonus. RQ's were designed to be random and players that accept and complete a RQ are rewarded with the bonus of RAD. Those that accept a RQ and don't want to run the content are arguably going against the design of RQ's themselves and is arguably why the leaver penalty exists, it helps prevent players from trying to cheese RQ's for the easier/shorter content without penalty though a number of players try and circumvent that penalty by wanting to be vote kicked.
“There are changes that can be made that don’t require coding...” - TriNitY
"No amount of coding will change human behavior" - TriNitY
Ongoing Issue: Legitmate Players Banned for Botting (Console) and the Future for "Dedicated" Players
Suggestions: (Implemented) \/\/ Rearrange Character on character Select Screen
Pub RQ are... 9 out of 10 times, waste of time unfortunately. as many said here, ppl just leave if the map/dung/whatever is not short enough for them. No prob for skirmish though, you get Qed almost instantly and mostly there is no prob completing it.
I see it easy: more rAD for public RQs, ONLY 2 ATTEMPTS PER DAY for example to get the big rAD bonus each day (once the Q was accepted by user). So, once you enter, you should at least try it. No luck after 2 tries? Go premade for less rAD (zone, guild, etc) as many times as you want. Maybe this way more ppl will stay and try their best to get more rADs.