Players leave RTQ/ RADQ/ RDQ area but do not leave party

flo · August 2022

Hi,

There are a lot of players that leave the area of the RTQ/ RADQ but do not leave party. We can only vote to kick a player once every 4 hours.
Just recently KAIHUKU v4.0@FARRAH@9581 joined RTQ and said kick me from the start. Then he left the area but did not leave party. After 2 minutes he disconnected but still in party.
Can something be done to discourage this type of behavior? He is not the only person that does this.
Maybe people that do this and get reported should have like a 4 hours or 24 hours RTQ/ RADQ/ RDQ/ account ban. The ones that join and leave by them selves should still have 30 min ban only.
Another player KingPain@darklanceboi#4282 joined RTQ TIAMAT then disconnected .
Two RTQ's one after the other someone left the game without leaving party.

johnnystranger · August 2022

If I don’t care for the way the group is playing , I abandon and take 30 minute timeout . There are more and more holding the group up .
This should be addressed!!!

flo · August 2022

johnnystranger#5900 said:
If I don’t care for the way the group is playing , I abandon and take 30 minute timeout . There are more and more holding the group up .
This should be addressed!!!

Exactly, if someone does not like how the group is going, just leave. But there is no penalty for anyone that just disconnects and waits to be kicked.

masteryoda · August 2022

If a player goes into something and realises they are not good enough to perform their role, and ask to be kicked I see no reason why they should be forced to take a penalty if someone has a kick available, also for example say your in LoMM and the tank just isn't good enough to do the worm, so than needs to be kicked, why should they than be forced to wait 4 hours before getting into content again. Same applies to anyone who is not capable of performing their role, people shouldn't be penalised for having the brains to realise something is beyond their current capabilities.

Than there is connection issues if people lose connection through no fault of their own than you go and kick them you think they should receive a 4hour ban.

If some is disconnected for a set amount of time the game will automatically kick and give a 30min ban which is already bad enough when it comes to connection issues an now your talking about giving a4 hour ban because you don't want to use up your kick which 3-9 other players may have available just because of a 4 hour cooldown on the kick.

A more reasonable request would be to reduce the cooldown for intiating a kick not ban people for 4 hours because you have gone and kicked them

Than there's the times where frankly someone else needs kicking but someone is protecting them, for example iv had time where a healer literally made no attempt at healer at all, go to kick them but group votes no so yeah frankly ask to be kicked which is totally fair, I see no reason again in such a scenario why someone should receive a 4 hour ban. Its a double edge sword to ask for long bans on those who get kicked, I assure you the day you get kicked or ask to be kicked and receive a 4 hour ban for it you will be justifiable raging at yourself for even suggesting such a thing.

greywynd · August 2022

Leaver penalty is only 30 minutes. Not 4 hours.

fritz · August 2022

The best thing you can do is form inside zone chat to avoid these kind of issues. Pugging might be more convenient at times unless it goes as stated. Problem is you can't simply enforce stricter rules without risking that players who legitimately disconnect or have to go afk for three minutes because something comes up might get rage reported or kicked and end up getting what? A 24-hour ban. Meh.

callumf · August 2022

johnnystranger#5900 said:
If I don’t care for the way the group is playing , I abandon and take 30 minute timeout . There are more and more holding the group up .
This should be addressed!!!

Yep this.

Tbh I tend to give anything a go in a PUG, but its quite clear after a few minutes how things are going to turn out. if its an obvious fail/really long run, just abandon, have a cup of tea, read some of your book and come back and try again.

The newer trials [CoK/Tiamat] remind me of early CoDG days when everyone abandoned on sight. Now CoDG is a welcome change

sobac · August 2022

Those 70k+ who enter PUG and want the rest of the party be 70k also are quite a dreamers. Then iL check starts, they see 30k-40k and ask for kick. Wanna fast run? Premade. Wanna challenge? Go PUG AND STAY.

PD: iL doesn't matter how good you are in this game, how well you play/know your toon is.

trinity706 · August 2022

As far as players joining a RQ then exiting/teleporting out, it is a thing, a number of players do it.

To be lenient:
If the character leaves the instance there could be a countdown timer and if the character:
- does not return before the countdown, the leaver penalty can be activated and the character removed from the group.
- returns before the countdown and attempts to leave again, there can be a prompt with a message along the lines of "if you proceed you will receive a leaver penalty and be removed from the group".

As far as the "mysterious" disconnects after joining a RQ... yes there are players with connection issues though protecting them also protects the players that abuse "disconnecting" to try and circumvent content they don't want to run/the leaver penalty. BOTH "must" be punished equally or you leave more room for abuse.

Then again, if a player leaves the instance after joining a RQ THEN "disconnects" what can reasonably be inferred from those actions?

Setting a "standard":
When you queue up for a RQ are you not saying that when the queue is ready and you join that you are ready to go? Should players not prepare themselves BEFORE queuing up? Arguably there should be a standard that once you join the instance you have committed to run the content and pretty much anything outside of that "should" result in a leaver penalty, including but not limited to:

- exiting the instance.
- holding the group "hostage" by not entering the "your party is waiting for you circle" (there could be a timer that starts after 4/9 characters enter the circle and ANY character(s) that are not in the circle when the timer is up receive the leaver penalty and are removed from the group (including those that leave the circle after the timer starts).
- "disconnecting". Being disconnected for a period of time already results in a leaver penalty though the amount of time it takes being "disconnected" before resulting in a leaver penalty should not reset upon logging back in. If a character "disconnects" again, the timer should pick up where it left off.

fritz · August 2022

trinity706#8838 said:
As far as players joining a RQ then exiting/teleporting out, it is a thing, a number of players do it.

To be lenient:
If the character leaves the instance there could be a countdown timer and if the character:
- does not return before the countdown, the leaver penalty can be activated and the character removed from the group.
- returns before the countdown and attempts to leave again, there can be a prompt with a message along the lines of "if you proceed you will receive a leaver penalty and be removed from the group".

As far as the "mysterious" disconnects after joining a RQ... yes there are players with connection issues though protecting them also protects the players that abuse "disconnecting" to try and circumvent content they don't want to run/the leaver penalty. BOTH "must" be punished equally or you leave more room for abuse.

Then again, if a player leaves the instance after joining a RQ THEN "disconnects" what can reasonably be inferred from those actions?

Setting a "standard":
When you queue up for a RQ are you not saying that when the queue is ready and you join that you are ready to go? Should players not prepare themselves BEFORE queuing up? Arguably there should be a standard that once you join the instance you have committed to run the content and pretty much anything outside of that "should" result in a leaver penalty, including but not limited to:

- exiting the instance.
- holding the group "hostage" by not entering the "your party is waiting for you circle" (there could be a timer that starts after 4/9 characters enter the circle and ANY character(s) that are not in the circle when the timer is up receive the leaver penalty and are removed from the group (including those that leave the circle after the timer starts).
- "disconnecting". Being disconnected for a period of time already results in a leaver penalty though the amount of time it takes being "disconnected" before resulting in a leaver penalty should not reset upon logging back in. If a character "disconnects" again, the timer should pick up where it left off.

This is overthinking an issue that solely has to be solved by the random queue design. If you don't want players to leave take the system for what it is: the daily AD grind and time sink. Meaning challenge or the possibility of failure should be completely removed. Let players run through dungeons with their friends, have a good time, and kill some bosses. Yeah maybe some mechanics, but scaled down to a point where they're not lethal. Like CoDG pushing that used to end in perma-death and now you can get resurrected on the platform.

Not sure how you achieve this, but random queue should just be a breeze, even at the minimum requested item levels. It's not meant to be a challege.

masteryoda · August 2022

I have a better idea, the best solution already exists, just go and premake your group before you run the dungeons.

Being able to ask to be kicked has a fair place within the game, and no one should be punished for either having the brains to know when you cant do something or the rest of the group are stubborn idiots who will keep throwing themselves to their deaths till they have wasted an hour of your time and all their healing resources, if you don't like that people can ask to be kicked than find people before you enter the queue, that's what clans and alliances are for after all

If some just leaves instance without asking to be kicked just assume they want to be kicked and move on.

Don't fix what isn't broken

farrah · August 2022

plz kick me!!

trinity706 · August 2022

fritz#8093 said:
This is overthinking an issue that solely has to be solved by the random queue design. If you don't want players to leave take the system for what it is: the daily AD grind and time sink. Meaning challenge or the possibility of failure should be completely removed.

...

Not sure how you achieve this, but random queue should just be a breeze, even at the minimum requested item levels. It's not meant to be a challege.

Strongly disagree.

RQ's ARE meant to be a challenge, that's where stat scaling came/comes in. Removing challenge and possibility of failure would directly contradict the changes to the queue system over time and even prior to RQ's.

Previously when players could run content solo for RAD, difficulty/time : RAD was considered to be too low and lower level players "left out" so things were changed to random content and lower level players being carried along AND handsomely rewarded. Then a 100k account wide RAD limit was added. Then salvage removed.

So yes when players RQ, arguably they don't don't want to be held up players that simply "don't like" the content that is chosen and refuse to take the leaver penalty by exiting the instance and doing whatever without consequence while they go through the content down a person (even worse when it's a Tank or Healer that does it) and or while they sit at the gather your party circle and can't proceed because all characters are not in (trials especially). Those type of things are probably why the OP created this thread anyway.

Something should be done about those type of situations because the abuser goes without consequence while a legitimate player is faced with taking the leaver penalty themself out of frustration, or using their vote kick which may or may not pass even still.

masteryoda#6623 said:
Being able to ask to be kicked has a fair place within the game, and no one should be punished for either having the brains to know when you cant do something

Those aren't the only type players that ask or tell others to kick them... A number of players simply don't like the content that is chosen and don't want to rightfully take the leaver penalty because they want to immediately queue again and try for "easier" content.

fritz · August 2022

RQ does what Neverwinter has always done best: Forcing players into environments they might not want to be in and then you wonder it leads to hostile behavior? Talking about fighting symptoms, not the illness. It's beyond me why you can't initiate a vote kick earlier than 15 minutes into a dungeon under certain circumstances. For example a player no longer being in the instance or afk for longer than 60 seconds. Yeah sure kicking circumvents the penalty but who cares. At least everybody can leave on their own without taking the penalty either or request reinforcements instead of being trapped inside a queue.

For the same reasons the vote to abandon the instance should be open instantly. If players don't want to try certain content because the reward per time spent is significantly lower it's a sign the devs should adjust. If it leads to certain dungeons being skipped all the time, well maybe it shouldn't have been included in its current form.

masteryoda · August 2022

trinity706#8838 said:

fritz#8093 said:
This is overthinking an issue that solely has to be solved by the random queue design. If you don't want players to leave take the system for what it is: the daily AD grind and time sink. Meaning challenge or the possibility of failure should be completely removed.

...

Not sure how you achieve this, but random queue should just be a breeze, even at the minimum requested item levels. It's not meant to be a challege.
Strongly disagree.

RQ's ARE meant to be a challenge, that's where stat scaling came/comes in. Removing challenge and possibility of failure would directly contradict the changes to the queue system over time and even prior to RQ's.

Previously when players could run content solo for RAD, difficulty/time : RAD was considered to be too low and lower level players "left out" so things were changed to random content and lower level players being carried along AND handsomely rewarded. Then a 100k account wide RAD limit was added. Then salvage removed.

So yes when players RQ, arguably they don't don't want to be held up players that simply "don't like" the content that is chosen and refuse to take the leaver penalty by exiting the instance and doing whatever without consequence while they go through the content down a person (even worse when it's a Tank or Healer that does it) and or while they sit at the gather your party circle and can't proceed because all characters are not in (trials especially). Those type of things are probably why the OP created this thread anyway.

Something should be done about those type of situations because the abuser goes without consequence while a legitimate player is faced with taking the leaver penalty themself out of frustration, or using their vote kick which may or may not pass even still.
masteryoda#6623 said:
Being able to ask to be kicked has a fair place within the game, and no one should be punished for either having the brains to know when you cant do something
Those aren't the only type players that ask or tell others to kick them... A number of players simply don't like the content that is chosen and don't want to rightfully take the leaver penalty because they want to immediately queue again and try for "easier" content.

Again that why the best solution already exists just premake your group than everyone knows what content your running and they are there by choice in the knowledge that everyone is ready for any given content so than as specified you than won't have to deal with people asking to be kicked or going afk.

trinity706 · August 2022

RQ's put rewards behind random rather than specific content and potentially carrying other players to get rewards while they get rewarded as well. The base RAD rewards are essentially the same each time no matter the length of the content, the difference being what comes out of the chest(s) at the end.

When you RQ you are CHOOSING to take a chance at random content which you may not like. Hostile behavior as a result of the content picked does not supersede the initial CHOICE to RQ in the first place, that is putting the cart before the horse. You can't simply voluntarily queue up, get content that you don't like then exhibit hostile behavior and expect to have it go over as it is just ok, unless of course there is little to no penalty (as it currently is).

Yes the RQ system probably could use some adjustments though the players exhibiting the hostile behavior CURRENTLY are the problem, not the players knowing what they potentially signed up for when the RQ.

Just don't RQ in the first place if you aren't going to engage the content that is picked by the system in a non-hostile manner plain and simple. Utilize other ways to get AD rather than going the "easiest" route and ruining it for everyone else when RQ content that comes up isn't preferred.

arazith07 · August 2022

I would like to see harsher penalties for those who do leave random queues, to be extended for those that remain outside of the instance for more than 1-2 minutes (or however long to give enough time for those who load slowly). If you don't want to run a certain trial in the list of randoms, don't queue for random trials.

trinity706 · August 2022

masteryoda#6623 said:
Again that why the best solution already exists just premake your group

The problem is negative behavior in regard to RQ's going unpunished, not players RQ'ing solo/less than a full group. Not punishing the behavior encourages it to continue/increase.

If there were substantial penalties for such behavior it would discourage said behavior.

masteryoda · August 2022

You do not realise the can of worms you will be opening by calling for bans when someone wants to leave a queue without taking a penalty, and I assure you it will come to bite you all in the rear if they were to implement what the OP is calling for. And worse case scenario it will drive more players away. Or the reporting system will get just as abuseded.

So yeah whatever let them implement it and a year after here we will be arguing over another post calling for it to be reverted

masteryoda · August 2022

trinity706#8838 said:

masteryoda#6623 said:
Again that why the best solution already exists just premake your group
The problem is negative behavior in regard to RQ's going unpunished, not players RQ'ing solo/less than a full group. Not punishing the behavior encourages it to continue/increase.

If there were substantial penalties for such behavior it would discourage said behavior.

You make it sound so game breaking but it's not as abused as some are claiming here, it's no where near such big deal that developers need to rework the banning system, so what someone asks to be kicked for whatever reason it's not worth handing out unfair penalties, you know what you will get instead of asking to be kicked they will just do as little as possible waste everyone's time further until someone get sick of see someone just barely remaining active so you can't report them and they won t drop out fronm being afk they just sit there in silence do bare minimum and stay as far away as possible till you carry them through or you get sick and kick them anyway. And than if they are still taking a ban for being kicked that will see so much rage from players this forum will be full of people who received bans for getting kicked from a dungeon which frankly if your just like everyone needs to punished regardless of reasons than you know what why bother running anything if there might be chance you will reported and penalised for being kicked for no valid reason. But again keep calling for penalties to be applied to people who ask to be kicked or get kick period and we will all watch it blow up

greywynd · August 2022

farrah#9581 said:
plz kick me!!

*boot*

fritz · August 2022

It's amazing that we periodically run into these nonsense discussions about random queues. Players are "choosing" random queues because it's the only way of reliably capping your daily RADs. Since there are simply zero other options players are indeed "forced" into random content. You know what was great? When we got rewarded for the first two dungeons and skirmishes back in the day and could actually CHOOSE the content we'd like to play. Sure most ran 2x eSOT/ 2x eTOS because it was the fastest completion and that's precisely why random queues were introduced.

Iirc the devs were very blunt about the fact that they wanted more variety in daily dungeon runs (so that content doesn't end up as dead code) and that the system wants veterans to carry newer players and provide them with an environment in which queues pop within a reasonable time. So yeah, the system was always designed to take choices away from players and force them into a very distinct playing style.

That approach unsurprisingly has it's flaws. Back in module 12, until today. And the answer once again in 2022 is not upping the leaver penalty or some other HAMSTER, but embrace its role as daily RAD generation. There's plenty challenge to be had elsewhere.

fritz · August 2022

trinity706#8838 said:

masteryoda#6623 said:
Again that why the best solution already exists just premake your group
The problem is negative behavior in regard to RQ's going unpunished, not players RQ'ing solo/less than a full group. Not punishing the behavior encourages it to continue/increase.

If there were substantial penalties for such behavior it would discourage said behavior.

I would advise you to go back in history and try to find out what "substantial penalties" did to PVP back in the day. Not only is this not the first time somebody suggests such thing, the effect also has been disproved in the past.

trinity706#8838 said:
Just don't RQ in the first place if you aren't going to engage the content that is picked by the system in a non-hostile manner plain and simple. Utilize other ways to get AD rather than going the "easiest" route and ruining it for everyone else when RQ content that comes up isn't preferred.

Nobody forces you to RQ either knowing about the complications at hand. You could easily premade and avoid it. RQ means you win some you lose some. Either to the content or players. It's the nature of the beast.

trinity706 · August 2022

masteryoda#6623 said:
You do not realise the can of worms you will be opening by calling for bans when someone wants to leave a queue without taking a penalty, and I assure you it will come to bite you all in the rear if they were to implement what the OP is calling for.

The 4 hour ban for being reported (multiple times?) that the OP is suggesting is a bit much, that's why it was personally suggested to just grant the leaver penalty to those that exhibit negative/hostile behavior (- exiting the instance, - holding the group "hostage", - "disconnecting").

As far as someone wanting to leave without penalty, if they are vote kicked, fine, in the meantime before the vote kick they should actively run the content. Though if they are not vote kicked and they proceed to exhibit negative/hostile behavior (not actively running the content, - exiting the instance, - holding the group "hostage", - "disconnecting"), not fine and they should receive the leaver penalty.

Ever heard of the saying "odd man out"? If 4/9 of the group wants to run the RQ, that EVERYONE voluntarily signed up for, the person that doesn't want to, for pretty much whatever reason should rightfully take the leaver penalty.

fritz#8093 said:
I would advise you to go back in history and try to find out what "substantial penalties" did to PVP back in the day. Not only is this not the first time somebody suggests such thing, the effect also has been disproved in the past.

Receiving a 30 minute leaver penalty for negative/hostile behavior is substantial. The offending player is temporarily removed from the RQ pool, that's 30 they could have been earning RAD through RQ's.

Penalties granted for the behavior instead of it not is the point, even if it continues. At this time there are no penalties for:
- exiting the instance
- holding the group "hostage"

which there should be.

fritz#8093 said:
Nobody forces you to RQ either knowing about the complications at hand. You could easily premade and avoid it. RQ means you win some you lose some. Either to the content or players. It's the nature of the beast.

The "complications at hand" and the "nature of the beast" do not trump a player's right to RQ without another player exhibiting negative/hostile behavior simply because they don't like the content chosen and or feel that the group is not up to par, EVEN if they queue without a pre-made group.

plasticbat · August 2022

This is like Matrix. Every 6 months, this kind of discussion comes up and all the talking points, pro, con, ban, abuse, what if internet disconnect/lag issues, hostile behaviour, arguments, counter-arguments, counter-counter-arguments .... were all covered in the discussion before RQ was introduced. Everything here are just rehash, rehash and rehash. So far, I do not see any new idea. Yes, I am bias and hate RQ with a passion.

fritz · August 2022

plasticbat said:
This is like Matrix. Every 6 months, this kind of discussion comes up and all the talking points, pro, con, ban, abuse, what if internet disconnect/lag issues, hostile behaviour, arguments, counter-arguments, counter-counter-arguments .... were all covered in the discussion before RQ was introduced. Everything here are just rehash, rehash and rehash. So far, I do not see any new idea. Yes, I am bias and hate RQ with a passion.

One of the Groundhog Days of Neverwinter. We've had folks smarter than me writing blog posts and making videos about these issues since 2017. The system is trash, don't punish the players.

masteryoda · August 2022

trinity706#8838 said:

masteryoda#6623 said:
You do not realise the can of worms you will be opening by calling for bans when someone wants to leave a queue without taking a penalty, and I assure you it will come to bite you all in the rear if they were to implement what the OP is calling for.
The 4 hour ban for being reported (multiple times?) that the OP is suggesting is a bit much, that's why it was personally suggested to just grant the leaver penalty to those that exhibit negative/hostile behavior (- exiting the instance, - holding the group "hostage", - "disconnecting").

As far as someone wanting to leave without penalty, if they are vote kicked, fine, in the meantime before the vote kick they should actively run the content. Though if they are not vote kicked and they proceed to exhibit negative/hostile behavior (not actively running the content, - exiting the instance, - holding the group "hostage", - "disconnecting"), not fine and they should receive the leaver penalty.

Ever heard of the saying "odd man out"? If 4/9 of the group wants to run the RQ, that EVERYONE voluntarily signed up for, the person that doesn't want to, for pretty much whatever reason should rightfully take the leaver penalty.
fritz#8093 said:
I would advise you to go back in history and try to find out what "substantial penalties" did to PVP back in the day. Not only is this not the first time somebody suggests such thing, the effect also has been disproved in the past.
Receiving a 30 minute leaver penalty for negative/hostile behavior is substantial. The offending player is temporarily removed from the RQ pool, that's 30 they could have been earning RAD through RQ's.

Penalties granted for the behavior instead of it not is the point, even if it continues. At this time there are no penalties for:
- exiting the instance
- holding the group "hostage"

which there should be.
fritz#8093 said:
Nobody forces you to RQ either knowing about the complications at hand. You could easily premade and avoid it. RQ means you win some you lose some. Either to the content or players. It's the nature of the beast.
The "complications at hand" and the "nature of the beast" do not trump a player's right to RQ without another player exhibiting negative/hostile behavior simply because they don't like the content chosen and or feel that the group is not up to par, EVEN if they queue without a pre-made group.

This is the third time iv tried to respond both times previously my response was deleted so I can't bothered anymore to keep typing out extensive paragraphs, so i going to keep this as short as possible, the "complications at hand" and the "nature of the beast" DOES trump a players right to publicly RQ without other players exhibiting negative/hostile behaviour, without in game moderators available, any form of automated system can and will be abused by someone, if you randomly queue than you yes you are leaving your self open to the possibility a toxic player joins. I can't be bothered right now to list all the ways one can abuse an automated penalty system if real in game moderators are not around to judge any given scenario. Il give one example of how the system could not fairly make a decision and if you can't distinguish a real report from a fake one than its open to just as much abuse. So a player can join a queue and still hold others hostage without leaving the instance or going afk, all you have to do is keep moving but do nothing to help your team progress something I have now and again seen, what will you do than report? What than happens when we start seeing people recieve a penalty when they are just exploring a dungeon or can't keep up with the group and someone decides to report them for holding up the group, if the reporting is based on a vote system there will always be a chance to prevent the vote or to control the voting, at which point as I said if there's no in game moderator to actually judge weather report is fair or not you will end up seeing a fair share of unfair penalties being handed out. And again the player will be trumped by the complications at hand and the nature of the beast. The solution again is to premake your group and than you never have to worry about negative/hostile behavior.

trinity706 · August 2022

trinity706#8838 said:
As far as players joining a RQ then exiting/teleporting out, it is a thing, a number of players do it.

To be lenient:
If the character leaves the instance there could be a countdown timer and if the character:
- does not return before the countdown, the leaver penalty can be activated and the character removed from the group.
- returns before the countdown and attempts to leave again, there can be a prompt with a message along the lines of "if you proceed you will receive a leaver penalty and be removed from the group".

Setting a "standard":
Arguably there should be a standard that once you join the instance you have committed to run the content and pretty much anything outside of that "should" result in a leaver penalty, including but not limited to:

- exiting the instance.
- holding the group "hostage" by not entering the "your party is waiting for you circle" (there could be a timer that starts after 4/9 characters enter the circle and ANY character(s) that are not in the circle when the timer is up receive the leaver penalty and are removed from the group (including those that leave the circle after the timer starts).
- "disconnecting". Being disconnected for a period of time already results in a leaver penalty though the amount of time it takes being "disconnected" before resulting in a leaver penalty should not reset upon logging back in. If a character "disconnects" again, the timer should pick up where it left off.

None of the suggestions personally made quoted above would require voting, just timers, which should be fairly simple to add. Of course voting could be controlled/manipulated, which is pretty much why none of the above suggestions would require voting.

Not entering the gather your party circle and or leaving the instance are but two negative behaviors that often enough occur within RQ's, two behaviors that are quite distinct and essentially "should" not happen though if they do and the player that commits it/them is removed, it would grant that more relief for the remaining players. No it would not prevent players from intentionally not pulling their weight though that is what the vote kick could possibly handle. Vote kicking as pretty much the ONLY option against negative behavior (besides taking the leaver penalty yourself) is fairly weak and has an exceptionally long cooldown though in tandem with a system that boots players that don't enter the circle/exit the instance would help.

Directly countering negative behavior is key, not simply trying to circumvent it with a pre-made group. Not everyone/the majoirty is going to run pre-made groups, and again, they shouldn't have to. A player should be able to RQ without negative behavior, more so, with means other than vote kicking or taking the leaver penalty in frustration to alleviate it.

The "complications at hand" and the "nature of the beast" exist because players essentially only have vote kicking (which is not immediately available nor foolproof) as a weapon against it.

masteryoda · August 2022

Timers won't fix anything, and again risking penalising players that can't keep up with the rest of the group, which again wont be fair for the new players and is just as toxic as someone leaving the instance. Having a timer that doesn't reset once entering the circle could cause bugs such as for example say everyone gets to the first boss circle timers begin everyone enters circle timers stop for a moment but don't reset, boss begins everyone is no longer in the circle timer continues to count down for everyone, timer runs out everyone gets kicked and receives a penalty, you will say than you code it to restart at beginning of boss but could still get bugged unintentionally and in the manner I have said, plus if it did break in the way I have just outlined than you will see the developers say "can't reproduce" and than everyone is stuck with broken timers forever.

I'm sure i don't need to explain how easy it would be to abuse a timer system that resets as soon as you enter circle. At which point you will say don't reset timers and than I will loop it back to the possibility of such ad system being bugged or broken and know cryptic that's exactly what will happen.

Now public groups will never be able to ensure there is never negative, toxic or abusive behaviour, I mean just go from the basic toxicity of insulting people, any one can go into a public group and insult anyone else and what unless everyone votes to kick them than you literally have to sit there and take it, can report but that will take time and may not even achieve anything, yes this isn't the main point of your comments but saying things like people should be able to public queue and not have to worry or deal with toxic behaviour isn't true in any way, sad yes but thats public queues, does this mean you have to private, no but you do have to accept that sometimes your going to have to deal with negative toxic behaviour.

No point getting frustrated about things that are out of your control, just move on

trinity706 · August 2022

Every since RQ's were introduced more experienced players were inclined to carry all newer players that queued up so that they both could get rewards, was that fair to the experienced players? Exactly, it wasn't, so as a trade-off newer players could simply have an extended timer for "x" number of runs in a dungeon that they hadn't experienced before and after those "x" runs, the timer would be set to the default. The player not in the circle along with the other players could also receive a movement speed buff along with a prompt to help them reach the rest of the group before the timer expires.

There are multiple things that the suggested system could use to help aid legitimate players so that they wouldn't be unintentionally removed from the group, though as it currently stands, not having anything in place other than vote kicking allows the negative/hostile behavior to reign supreme leaving legitimate players consistently with the short straw. Groups being very susceptible to easily being controlled by negative behavior is pretty much why this thread was created in the first place.

trinity706#8838 said:
- holding the group "hostage" by not entering the "your party is waiting for you circle" (there could be a timer that starts after 4/9 characters enter the circle and ANY character(s) that are not in the circle when the timer is up receive the leaver penalty and are removed from the group (including those that leave the circle after the timer starts).

As described, the timer would not reset upon entering the circle.

Fear of bugs has not stopped developers from introducing new things and or updating/changing previous things, if that was the case Neverwinter would not be on its current mod. Also there is the preview server to test various settings of such a system and the ability to present such settings/findings to the forums for people to voice their opinion(s) about.

trinity706#8838 said:
No it would not prevent players from intentionally not pulling their weight though that is what the vote kick could possibly handle. Vote kicking as pretty much the ONLY option against negative behavior (besides taking the leaver penalty yourself) is fairly weak and has an exceptionally long cooldown though in tandem with a system that boots players that don't enter the circle/exit the instance would help.

...

A player should be able to RQ without negative behavior, more so, with means other than vote kicking or taking the leaver penalty in frustration to alleviate it.

The "complications at hand" and the "nature of the beast" exist because players essentially only have vote kicking (which is not immediately available nor foolproof) as a weapon against it.

Of course public groups will more than likely not be 100% free from toxic behavior but that is not an excuse not to implement things to help reduce it. Players should be able to play free from negative behavior, why should they simply have to, because some people are toxic and overbearing? That's not justification to not do anything about it.

masteryoda#6623 said:
No point getting frustrated about things that are out of your control, just move on

That type of attitude is how things remain the same. Clearly negative/hostile behavior in regard to RQ's is an issue for a number of players and at least some are not going to simply stand by and not make the effort to do/have something done about it.

As long as the forums are open players have a means to voice their opinions about situations they and others face in-game which does in fact give them some sort of control, although limited, because the rest of the control lies in the hands of the developers.

masteryoda · August 2022

Can't stress enough it's nowhere near as bad as people are making out, I run nothing but public groups for multiple hours everyday sometimes literally 12-14hours straight, all random queues and Dragon hunts on ps4, and my honest opinion is I will encounter someone who decides to leave instance once in a blue moon, its certainly not daily, its most likely to happen with black dragon and Castle ravenloft otherwise I practically never see it, ofcourse yes it happens but everything you have outlined seems like an awful amount of work on the devs part of something that's not all that game breaking. Infact I might just start keeping a log of how often I or my friends see someone leave an instance or sit around waiting to be kicked.

Although that said maybe instead discouraging people from enter queues, developers address the reasons why people are trying to avoid certain public content in the first place and make it so people are less likely to want to avoid any given public content. Instead of punishing people address maybe address the issues that may be causing people to avoid content be it not knowing mechanics or overpowered enemies like the case of the black dragon which majorityof people will agree is/was overpowered almost broken. Or even like tiamat which has been reworked multiple times now to improve success rates and now has a pretty simple public queue and a challenging end game queue. Generally there is usually a reason for someone to be trying to avoid certain content.

But yeah il give some thought to trying to track how often I find people leaving the instance or choosing to be AFK.

If cryptic introduce a timer system and it ends up bugging out and causing players to recieve unfair penalties, I will be the first to laugh and say I did warn ya.

Players leave RTQ/ RADQ/ RDQ area but do not leave party

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