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Another Tank plea that will fall on deaf ears
benyr
Member Posts: 238 Arc User
Ive seen quite a lot of comments posted recently about Tanks in Neverwinter currently, and as someone who mained a Paladin Tank until Mod 16 they resonate with me. As i said I used to main a Tank, I now main a Rogue because DPS is so much easier and more fun to play.
Rather than make this another post on whether its possible / rewarding to play a Tank in any difficult content or not, I thought i'd try and come at it from a different angle, mainly why the current state of Tanks is damaging the stated goals of the game, apologies for the length of this post but I dont think any one issue is causing the problem, more the sheer multitude of problems tanks face, and i wanted to express all the ones i could think of.
Since all the major changes to the game from Mod 16 right through to mod 22 we have been told there were three main aims to the reworks. 1) to reinforce the 3 role system making all classes making all roles required and ending the buffer parties. 2) To make the game more accessable for new players, bringing them to a level they can fully participate quickly. 3) Simplify character building by streamlining it.
Its newer players that are critical to the failing of the above, this post is not really relavant to vereran players who who are well geared and have good friendship groups and alliances to run content with. These people do not pug random queues and they dont spend real money, and as a veteran player myself have to accept the game focus is not on us - its all about attracting new players who will spend.
Issue 1 - Imagine you're a new player, you roll a Tank and start the grind through inital leveling zones all the way through to Dragonbone vale. How long do you last walking up to a Mob, standing there with your finger on your mouse botton slowly, so very slowly killing one group before you trudge off to the next one to rinse and repeat. All the while watching other players clear Mobs in moments and progress 5 or 6 times faster than you can. And its not just slow its tedious and boring, not what anybody is looking for in a game. If you're playing Barbarian or Fighter its a near certainty you take the DPS path because its faster and actually enjoyable. If you're playing a Paladin you probably pick the heal path or re roll a different charater before you get too deep in. If you're absolutly set on playing a Tank you quite possibly walk away from the game as its just not fun to play.
Issue 2 - Pugging random queues - again we're talking about new players here, who may not have the option to group up yet, because the game has now allowed them to progress to fast they are level 20 with reasonable IL scores within a week. If youre DPS you queue up for you random to experience the Dungeons, which is why dowloaded the game initially presumably, and to earn your AD, and you wait, and wait, and wait because no one is queing to play the Tank role. You might only have a few hours to play in the evening, how many new players are going to stick with the game when they spend 40 mins+ waiting to get into a run, then once they are in three quarters of the time half the players abandon, or the run is a failure and thats your evenings playtime done, that only has to happen a couple of times before you decide its not the game for you and move on.
Then if you pug as a Tank (or Healer) the good news is you probably get a run in no time at all, the bad news is as above, the run probably fails and as an added bonus you get blamed for everyone else dying, verbally abused and potentially kicked. Again how many times do you tolerate that before you decide the games not for you.
Issue 3 - So whos actually playing Tank roles. Now I know there will be some people reading this who main a Tank and like it and good luck to you, but you're in the minority and Random queues and call outs for preformed queues strongly evidence that there is not a high enough ratio of Tanks in the Game. In my experiance most Tanks are either Alts people have formed or 2nd loadouts on Fighters and Barbarians. The typical conversations I see is basically horse trading, whereby someone reluctantly agrees to take the Tank role on this run, in return for the being able to run as a DPS for the remainder of the week - none of these people endup in a PUG random of course.
Issue 4 - Gear, Its truly horrible grinding content as a Tank as mentioned above, sitting there with your finger on the mouse button for 3 or 4 mins per mob is no ones idea of fun. Additionally the gear for Tanks is radically differnent to the Gear required for DPS. Even Healers can largely get away with using most of the same gear for their DPS and Healer load outs, but Tanks need a 2nd set of everything - thats 2nd sets of enchantments, insignia, companion gear, companions, armour (head, boots, gloves etc) and potentialy even a different mount. So if you want to build an Tank Alt or load out, not only does it take you 5 or 6 times longer to grind, but you need to find twice as much gear as pure DPS or DPS / Healer combo's.
Issue 5 - Work arounds, as I mentioned at the top one of the aims of the game was to reinforce the importance of all 3 roles. I am already seeing premade groups where its deemed faster to run with 4 DPS and a Healer, or Trial runs with only 1 tank - so that aim has not been succesful.
Issue 6 - Fun, this is subjective and my opinion only, but playing a Tank in dungeon runs is no fun. Its not rewarding trying to grab aggro then desperatly trying to stay alove by running for it. Its why i've stopped playing on my Paladin.
As much as I'd hate to see another wholesale change, something really needs to be done. It has to be made so that moving between DPS and Tank Load outs is as easy as moving between DPS and Healer roles in terms of equipment, and you have to do something about the Paladin to make it bearable to grind zones in something approaching a reasonable timescale and maybe even something close to fun?
Edit - tagging in @noworries#8859 & @nitocris83 as suggested below, many thanks guys.
Rather than make this another post on whether its possible / rewarding to play a Tank in any difficult content or not, I thought i'd try and come at it from a different angle, mainly why the current state of Tanks is damaging the stated goals of the game, apologies for the length of this post but I dont think any one issue is causing the problem, more the sheer multitude of problems tanks face, and i wanted to express all the ones i could think of.
Since all the major changes to the game from Mod 16 right through to mod 22 we have been told there were three main aims to the reworks. 1) to reinforce the 3 role system making all classes making all roles required and ending the buffer parties. 2) To make the game more accessable for new players, bringing them to a level they can fully participate quickly. 3) Simplify character building by streamlining it.
Its newer players that are critical to the failing of the above, this post is not really relavant to vereran players who who are well geared and have good friendship groups and alliances to run content with. These people do not pug random queues and they dont spend real money, and as a veteran player myself have to accept the game focus is not on us - its all about attracting new players who will spend.
Issue 1 - Imagine you're a new player, you roll a Tank and start the grind through inital leveling zones all the way through to Dragonbone vale. How long do you last walking up to a Mob, standing there with your finger on your mouse botton slowly, so very slowly killing one group before you trudge off to the next one to rinse and repeat. All the while watching other players clear Mobs in moments and progress 5 or 6 times faster than you can. And its not just slow its tedious and boring, not what anybody is looking for in a game. If you're playing Barbarian or Fighter its a near certainty you take the DPS path because its faster and actually enjoyable. If you're playing a Paladin you probably pick the heal path or re roll a different charater before you get too deep in. If you're absolutly set on playing a Tank you quite possibly walk away from the game as its just not fun to play.
Issue 2 - Pugging random queues - again we're talking about new players here, who may not have the option to group up yet, because the game has now allowed them to progress to fast they are level 20 with reasonable IL scores within a week. If youre DPS you queue up for you random to experience the Dungeons, which is why dowloaded the game initially presumably, and to earn your AD, and you wait, and wait, and wait because no one is queing to play the Tank role. You might only have a few hours to play in the evening, how many new players are going to stick with the game when they spend 40 mins+ waiting to get into a run, then once they are in three quarters of the time half the players abandon, or the run is a failure and thats your evenings playtime done, that only has to happen a couple of times before you decide its not the game for you and move on.
Then if you pug as a Tank (or Healer) the good news is you probably get a run in no time at all, the bad news is as above, the run probably fails and as an added bonus you get blamed for everyone else dying, verbally abused and potentially kicked. Again how many times do you tolerate that before you decide the games not for you.
Issue 3 - So whos actually playing Tank roles. Now I know there will be some people reading this who main a Tank and like it and good luck to you, but you're in the minority and Random queues and call outs for preformed queues strongly evidence that there is not a high enough ratio of Tanks in the Game. In my experiance most Tanks are either Alts people have formed or 2nd loadouts on Fighters and Barbarians. The typical conversations I see is basically horse trading, whereby someone reluctantly agrees to take the Tank role on this run, in return for the being able to run as a DPS for the remainder of the week - none of these people endup in a PUG random of course.
Issue 4 - Gear, Its truly horrible grinding content as a Tank as mentioned above, sitting there with your finger on the mouse button for 3 or 4 mins per mob is no ones idea of fun. Additionally the gear for Tanks is radically differnent to the Gear required for DPS. Even Healers can largely get away with using most of the same gear for their DPS and Healer load outs, but Tanks need a 2nd set of everything - thats 2nd sets of enchantments, insignia, companion gear, companions, armour (head, boots, gloves etc) and potentialy even a different mount. So if you want to build an Tank Alt or load out, not only does it take you 5 or 6 times longer to grind, but you need to find twice as much gear as pure DPS or DPS / Healer combo's.
Issue 5 - Work arounds, as I mentioned at the top one of the aims of the game was to reinforce the importance of all 3 roles. I am already seeing premade groups where its deemed faster to run with 4 DPS and a Healer, or Trial runs with only 1 tank - so that aim has not been succesful.
Issue 6 - Fun, this is subjective and my opinion only, but playing a Tank in dungeon runs is no fun. Its not rewarding trying to grab aggro then desperatly trying to stay alove by running for it. Its why i've stopped playing on my Paladin.
As much as I'd hate to see another wholesale change, something really needs to be done. It has to be made so that moving between DPS and Tank Load outs is as easy as moving between DPS and Healer roles in terms of equipment, and you have to do something about the Paladin to make it bearable to grind zones in something approaching a reasonable timescale and maybe even something close to fun?
Edit - tagging in @noworries#8859 & @nitocris83 as suggested below, many thanks guys.
Post edited by benyr on
14
Comments
@benyr You've written such an important post, why not TAG the Community Manager, Devs or the Moderators.
Different mounts I can live with because I like getting all the mythic mounts anyway.
Different mount insignia is a huge cost problem for me.
Acquiring and upgrading five different companions to mythic is expensive.
Companion gear is easy for me because the RNG devils only drop tank gear it seems.
Acquiring and upgrading artifacts is expensive.
I allocate resources on my fighter to running campaigns for boons and by the end I have to change everything to tank.
The more I think about it the less I am considering making a tank.
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
the truth of the matter
It would be nice if you could acknowledge you have seen any of the multiple Tank threads and understand the players concerns even if its only to tell us its tough and that you have no intention of doing anything about it, at least we will know where we stand rather than the misery of playing in the hope things will improve?
Its worth noting Aragon uploaded a video the other day of a COK run where both Tanks died but they completed it anyway, that may be a testament to how good the rest of the players were, or it may be another worrying example of how Tanks really are not that important. Either way it must be of concern that Tanks who are supposed to be able to soak up the most damage are the ones struggling to stay alive?
We'd appreciate your thoughts on:
1) Are you aware there is a shortage of active Tanks in the game which is impacting on random queues, and almost certainly as a result your ability to retain new players.
2) Are you aware Tanks take so much longer to Grind content than other classes / may be unable to solo some content other classes can.
3) Are you aware that its pretty much double the cost or time to spec up a DPS / Tank Alt / Load out than it is a DPS / Healer equivalent.
4) Are you aware that based on the Forum opinion Tanks are no fun to play in Dungeons or in open world
5) Are you aware there is growing evidence Tanks are not being required to complete Dungeons, thus negating your goal of making all classes viable.
We don't expect a fix - or certainly not one in the short term but some kind of acknowledgement that you understand what we are saying would be appreciated.
Many thanks