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Tanks and Healers - Under Pressure too Much?
callumf
Member Posts: 1,710 Arc User
Simple question, seems Cryptic hates Tanks and Healers [thats a very general opinion from chat, forum, etc].
As a former Tank [and now a healer] from before Mod 16 I can attest that end game stuff places a lot of emphasis on the Tank and Healer to be the best they can be, or its a wipe.
The Tank has to grab aggro, the healer has to time those heals almost to perfection on the real endgame stuff or its a wipe.
Someone said elsewhere something like "the healer needs to have the dexterity and reflexes of a 13 year old kid on a sugar high to heal through some stuff".
I agree, I can heal very well, know my place and for the vast majority of content can heal very well thank you.
BUT there is too much emphasis in Endgame stuff place on Healers and Tanks, and the failed runs are down to the failings of healers and tanks. Which means healers and tanks are also less likely to participate in end game stuff.. a cycle of doom as you can see.
The answer? Not sure... give tanks some real big hit points, defence etc?
Weaken the damege done in end game dungeons?
Lets talk abotu it sensibly like adults as the DPS community wont last long with unhappy tanks and healers
As a former Tank [and now a healer] from before Mod 16 I can attest that end game stuff places a lot of emphasis on the Tank and Healer to be the best they can be, or its a wipe.
The Tank has to grab aggro, the healer has to time those heals almost to perfection on the real endgame stuff or its a wipe.
Someone said elsewhere something like "the healer needs to have the dexterity and reflexes of a 13 year old kid on a sugar high to heal through some stuff".
I agree, I can heal very well, know my place and for the vast majority of content can heal very well thank you.
BUT there is too much emphasis in Endgame stuff place on Healers and Tanks, and the failed runs are down to the failings of healers and tanks. Which means healers and tanks are also less likely to participate in end game stuff.. a cycle of doom as you can see.
The answer? Not sure... give tanks some real big hit points, defence etc?
Weaken the damege done in end game dungeons?
Lets talk abotu it sensibly like adults as the DPS community wont last long with unhappy tanks and healers
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By default, public queues require 1+1+3 to fit the intended model. Generally people want to feel progression in their role (another element that's gone, but that's another thread). So newer content has to do all of the above, "but more." Especially if you require things like Item Level to show a heirarchy of gear.
This is not mandatory to all RPGs, but it's the de facto result of both elements above, the Trinity and the Heirarchy (Item Level). Then, in order to make sure it's still "challenging," they reduce the margin of error. This is quite unforgiving to the Tank and Healer in particular, because often the DPS can make up some of the slack here and there. Although Crowd Control Support, Buff Classes, and True Hybrid roles and archetypes can increase variety and make up for any of these areas being subpar, Neverwinter has chosen not to do this, mostly with the way Paragon paths work that declares your role and gives very few options within it.
Put all that together, and anytime you get a group struggling, someone will blame the Tanks and/or Healers, sometimes both. That goes even more so if there's no special mechanics that DPS must do while the Tank and Healer do their thing.
The games that don't have this problem are the ones that don't force the Unholy Trinity so strictly, allowing for success even with less balanced teams, and focusing on completing specific mechanics for the content that any combination of roles can do.
*(I emphasize that it's the Neverwinter Designers and Development team and not Cryptic, because STO does not have strict trinity roles, and it seems to not have this problem.)
TLDR: this happens all the time when the Developers go this direction. If it's bothering you, let them know.
1. Scalling
For example, TIC minimum Item Level to enter is 30k - lets say a tank and a group of people with that item level enter TIC would they be succesfull? Defitnetly they wont. Why because we can assume that those people didnt have a single mythic companion and mount in order to make their stat balanced, even if they somewhat do, the tank wont survive the boss attack.
Im wondering what is the basis of Cryptyc minimum required ilevel of a dungeon, did those number just magically pop up? or Cryptyc only calculate the damage required on dps check with extreme minimum error margin on dps side, without considering the capabilities of other role?
I'm not claiming as an expreinced gamers, but I atleast some other MMO. When they said minimum they mean it, yes we will having much trouble, yes it will takes more time but it's possible, we can do it, minimum means enough, the rest is up to the player, which is the knowledge of the mechanic of the fight.
2. ilevel vs total ratings
What i'm pointing is the ease to cap atleast 2 stat ratings with the help of Forte. DPS got much more ease to cap it and it only require litle effort.
For example, my Barbarian Blademaster alt that got 30,568 ilevel and olny got 5 epic companion and only 2 epic mount. It only require a Sorbet and a Flask of potency to get 90% on power and Crit Sev and a decent, 60% accuracy
And as for my tank on my main account I need atleast 1 mythic Green slime and 1 other Mythic companion with 2 stat that got deff on it to get to 90 % on my most important stat with the help from Forte.
This mess makes most newbie tank, even the veteran one were having so much trouble struggling
3 decent DPS have enough damage to wipe a group within seconds. A good DPS, especially rogues and wizards due to their cc, can solo wipe a group within a few seconds. It was much easier before the rework, but the issue still persists. With the rework, they lowered the defenses of the DPS classes, because now they have to focus either on offensive or defensive stats, so the DPS that run ahead face the possibility to get one-shot by the mobs before they have the chance to do anything. Or at least thats how it was supposed to work in theory.
Because, though, a good DPS can have enough damage to instantly wipe a group of mobs, they had somehow to prevent them from doing the same thing, running ahead and one-shoting everything. To prevent that, they gave mobs a lot of damage. Like, A LOT. Theoretically, a tank should be able to tank those mobs with the help of the healer without any issue and because the DPS dont have high defenses any more, they shouldnt be able to run ahead.
Turns out the plan didnt work. Decent DPS can still run ahead and clear everything within seconds, if they have cc they wont even take any damage. Meanwhile, because of the damage of the mobs, a tank cant easily survive alone for a few seconds against a group of mobs, something that a tank should be able to do.
For example, im a paladin tank main, can reach up to 48-49k, pretty strong, with the build to be as tanky as possible. In lomm, a dungeon i hvae completed countless times, i ran a bit ahead, in the area where you fighter the Balor, before the Balor you have to fight 3 groups of mobs, i have been one-shot quite a few times, in the first group i can avoid it by slowly aggroing the mobs, unless some "clever" DPS has another idea, in the second group, i have been one-shot through my block right as all of them jump on me at the same time.
Bosses have kind of the same issue, some of them. Some bosses are weak. Weak enough that a single 1star mob can give me a harder time than the boss. I fought and killed Drufi in FBI alone when the rest of my party died and i barely ever dropped below 95% HP. But there are some bosses that can hit like a truck, again to prevent DPS from being able to tank them. But a boss that can break your block and still drop you to 50% HP with a single hit is insane, especially since this hit will be followed by another one.
And things are even worse because Defense, the what should be the primary stat for tanks, has actually half effectiveness, 90% defense doesnt reduce damage by 90%, instead by 50%. Also tanks have to increase quite a few stats but we dont get the necessary resources to do so, there are pretty few and gear pieces that can give us what we need and not all of the stats we need. Also damage resistance doesnt work, thank you Cryptic.
Very disappointed by the combat rework, playing a tank is too hard for no reason and too unsatisfying and unfun.
The problems described are purely based on players skill and understanding of the combat system, not Cryptic hating the classes.
That is why tanks are playing less.
Edit: oh, and giving all bosses full combat advantage without providing tanks with full Awareness capability.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Maybe it will get better with time, cause this new system introduced new stats we can get from equips but didn't change old equips, so we have a very very very little range of things to choose from as healers. For my dps alts I usually have 1-2 BiS options for every slot and some good and regular options too. For my healer it's is basically BiS or useless in most cases. And some slots/sets simply don't have a very good option.
I don't tank, but I hear from tanks they have a similar experience (though I see more options of artifacts and sets at least).
About mechanics being centered on healer and tanks I totally agree. And it creates a big problem for group content, cause there's no learning experience within the live server. On a trial you can have 4-5 experienced DPS and 1-2 learning. That's much harder to do for tanks and healers. And when you miss something, it's not a single body hitting the floor, it's all of them lol. Many of us have a dps alt to go through content before entering as a healer. Except for those few. And after combat changes you can't regular heal regular content without people dying a lot or spending lots of potions/stones.
Personally, I like to play as a healer cause I think it's more challenging (for many factors, and a lot more things you have to pay attention to). But for game community I believe it's a little beyond that safe line.
If playing a role is more difficult, more expensive, more time consuming, and you'll constantly get bashed for not knowing how to do things and killing your whole party, it's not hard to understand why it's so difficult to fulfill groups for dgs and trials. That rAD bonus is completely irrelevant. It's more like a bait when you're starting to play, so you might think it's more profitable to heal/tank XD
An ideal path would be to have more dps-related mechanics and divide responsibilities. Together with that, more options of equipment, equip bonuses, mount bonuses, artifact set bonuses, etc, that would be useful for tanks/healers.
But at this point I would be happy even with a refined AD compensation. The result would probably be people making new chars to farm AD but at least they would know the experience from inside... (And before someone quotes this part alone to say it's a bad idea, it's not a real suggestion, it's just me venting lol).
Last but not least, I agree, in parts, that some of that is due to people not understanding their classes. But we have to admit the game is not nearly intuitive about how to properly develop your toon, what stats are important, why do we need companions and mounts, etc. It seems to be for us playing for years. For new players they don't figure out most things without someone to help or reading lots of guides. It's ok to need guides for complex mechanics on advanced content. That's intended to be hard. But to manage your equipment? I don't think so... Also, tooltips are a mess, and it's been a mess for a loooooooong time.
entering content without potions or heals..
lacking enchants and in some cases lacking gear..
running around like its a solo encounter, aggroing lots of mobs and running back to the team for help..
running ahead to the next doorway avoiding mobs and leaving the others to fight everything in what to them is now a 4 man instance....
dying and just laying there shouting for help, instead of just releasing to the last campfire and running back....you died ...do you really think you will do better with resurrection sickness affecting you?... this is why i leave you on the floor...and why if i die, i release and run back, instead of expecting people fighting to stop and take dmg while they get me up...effectively leaving only 3 people in combat....
awareness isnt just a stat, dont stand in red areas on the ground unless you can absorb/cope with the damage youre about to get...and for heavens sake in content like tiamat if you die in the large red circles..dont bother shouting for help..no one is going to run in to get you up.
tbh i dont know why im bothering to write this..people that read these posts already know all this, its the people that dont read them which are the problem....i mean ..they cant even be bothered to read chat in game when people type 'only open purple portals' ..if they are incapable of reading 4 words, i cant really expect them to be reading the forums now can i
... and as always, there is no way to heal one shots. If the mob damage is so high that it one shots, or if a group of mobs has so much quick damage that it is essentially a one shot... I can't heal that.
Healer aoe heals have been nerfed since the healing changes, so we heal for less but the end game bosses (and trash mobs, but this has been mitigated a bit, thank goodness) hit a lot harder. And as DPS often has to (or chooses to) move and there is a bit of a delay on casting aoe heals... well, I just wasted precious divinity. I understand that some things have a heal check, but right now the boss fights in general go so much longer that everything seems to be a heal check. DPS can wait for their big encounter powers to cooldown and throw them as they come up, but as a healer I have to be able to cast heals as needed. I'm not asking for healing cooldowns, but can we do something about the divinity/soulweave pool? Maybe have some gear that can expand that? Or reduce the divinity cost of heals? There are so many gear options that would be nice for healers, if only they were created. An easy fix would be to have cleric gear from seal vendors that gave dps stats and other gear that gives heal stats.
For healers to work well they need gear that buffs their healing. DPS gets this; I wish there was more for tanks and for healers.
Level appropriate regular content without any scaling is more or less manageable, but it's also far from being a fun experience, and considering that they pretty much destroyed bonus XP enchantments, and that there is no light at the end of the leveling tunnel, i simply gave up and parked the character near a camp fire for invoking again.
I also started messing around with WoW after nearly a decade not touching it, and testing a Vengeance Demon Hunter or Blood Death Knight with crappy leveling equipment is more fun then playing my fully decked out Vanguard. And the same goes for the Garrison i can build in WoW with i guess every character? Anything i need for building it, i can get through questing and it's fun to watch your little outpost grow into a small settlement over time.
My current summary:
NWO = invested time > fun, payout
WoW = invested time < fun, payout
and that's why i bought the epic Shadowlands package in WoW and nothing for a very long time in NWO.
Anyway, for now i'm just collecting my daily lockbox key and doing the New Sharandar grind on one of my 15 characters, i also have a level 80 Vanguard with above 40k IL, a level 80 Justicar and level 80 Sentinel around 30k IL but i'm simply too burned out through all these changes to bother adjusting them again. And honestly, what would be the point? Anything can change within the next module, and my invested time/money would be wasted again. No, thank you...
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
Disagreeing with you = derailment ?
Provide input based on documented facts instead of opinions based on false information.
Its a fact that there are less Tanks around [RQ time lag]
Its a fact that healers cant heal as well as before.
Its a fact that in endgame dungeons, mechanics and reaction times for tanks and healers are much harder to complete in the right time and right way than just slugging away at mobs. And of course, most players want to be the hero killing the dragon, not standing still holding a shield up hoping to not get one-shotted or praying the healer has enough divinity left to cast the big heal at exactly the right moment.
I suggest make tanks more tanky, and give healers just that little bit more love i.e. +Outgoing Healing stuff and boost the healing output of some of the Encounter powers, and increase maximum divinity too, not loads, just enough to handle the healing required.
The Defence formula is an equal factor of course - players take more damage now than last mod. There's more to heal!
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
And if your DPS are standing stock still in red splat zones...
If you want tank-supporting items in the game, you have my 100% backing.
If you dream about dealing the same damage as dps, but without the consequences of being a glass cannon, you get LOL..
There's no easier way to explain my attitude.
Tank and heals are a key component of that. If you make it super easy for those two roles, well content is just easy.
Coordination makes life a lot easier for a healer. If the DPS are grouped nicely, behind the boss it makes it soooo much easier for the heals. There is a massive difference between playing heals in a party that has some knowledge of how to play and in a party that doesn't. Massive difference.
And imo they can't balance content for groups that have no idea, if you don't know what you are doing, you should fail the dungeon run.
As someone said recently on one of the threads going around at the moment, they should bring back normal and epic dungeons. People who want life easy, where DPS can stand in red and it not place pressure on the heals, can go normal. People who want some challenge and can understand basic principles like "don't stand in red, use your dodge" can play Epic. They used to have that.
I do not know where this come from. Me i.e. complain about bad TTK, low damage - DPS protective reaction is tank want to deal same amount of damage??? Who demand equal damage? Quote here please.
At the same time me i.e. complain about the lost need for tanks in many content. A tank cannot form a group if there is no demand. Why do you think anyone would demand tweaks, that tanks are needed again, but at the same time demand same damage as DPS to make DPS not needed anymore? This is insane. More <> Equal !!!
And your comment about - glass canon - DPS. Well. Do we play the same game? There is not that much difference between tank and DPS. I know enough DPS players push ahead like tanks - have no problems - and kill enemies like superman. In many content. Even if they get into trouble, a good skilled player can do alot with blink or soulstate. I.e. yesterday I solo tanked LOMM worm as healer. No tank needed. Only defence Green slime 7,50%. I tanked demogorgon as Healer. Tiamat no Tank needed. CODG tank needed? Except CR I do not know a REDQ/RTQ in need of a tank. Maybe TONG, did not test yet without a tank. TIC is possible without tank, but DPS need to be skilled.
The game is not only VOS or Zariel.
Then we'll talk. I remind you that OP heal has a shield, however, on which is he able to stand while is hit by stones in lomm
I don't like the way you manipulate the facts.