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Tanks and Healers - Under Pressure too Much?

callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,518 Arc User
Simple question, seems Cryptic hates Tanks and Healers [thats a very general opinion from chat, forum, etc].

As a former Tank [and now a healer] from before Mod 16 I can attest that end game stuff places a lot of emphasis on the Tank and Healer to be the best they can be, or its a wipe.

The Tank has to grab aggro, the healer has to time those heals almost to perfection on the real endgame stuff or its a wipe.

Someone said elsewhere something like "the healer needs to have the dexterity and reflexes of a 13 year old kid on a sugar high to heal through some stuff".

I agree, I can heal very well, know my place and for the vast majority of content can heal very well thank you.

BUT there is too much emphasis in Endgame stuff place on Healers and Tanks, and the failed runs are down to the failings of healers and tanks. Which means healers and tanks are also less likely to participate in end game stuff.. a cycle of doom as you can see.

The answer? Not sure... give tanks some real big hit points, defence etc?

Weaken the damege done in end game dungeons?

Lets talk abotu it sensibly like adults as the DPS community wont last long with unhappy tanks and healers :)
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Comments

  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    Its not Cryptic's fault. Let's be honest - abuse from the other players is the problem.
  • eladonwarps#6040 eladonwarps Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    In my experience, anytime you force the Unholy Trinity, you increase this problem. To create content that people find "challenging," you need to make enemy defenses high enough that it requires x number of Damage, enemy offenses need to be high enough that DPS characters can't tank or kite without Tank, or you render them unneeded, and then you need that to still hit a Tank hard enough to need Healing, or they won't bring Healers. It's clear from the Combat Changes and dungeon scaling that this is what the NW Design team* wants, to force "team play" by leaning into the Trinity.

    By default, public queues require 1+1+3 to fit the intended model. Generally people want to feel progression in their role (another element that's gone, but that's another thread). So newer content has to do all of the above, "but more." Especially if you require things like Item Level to show a heirarchy of gear.

    This is not mandatory to all RPGs, but it's the de facto result of both elements above, the Trinity and the Heirarchy (Item Level). Then, in order to make sure it's still "challenging," they reduce the margin of error. This is quite unforgiving to the Tank and Healer in particular, because often the DPS can make up some of the slack here and there. Although Crowd Control Support, Buff Classes, and True Hybrid roles and archetypes can increase variety and make up for any of these areas being subpar, Neverwinter has chosen not to do this, mostly with the way Paragon paths work that declares your role and gives very few options within it.

    Put all that together, and anytime you get a group struggling, someone will blame the Tanks and/or Healers, sometimes both. That goes even more so if there's no special mechanics that DPS must do while the Tank and Healer do their thing.

    The games that don't have this problem are the ones that don't force the Unholy Trinity so strictly, allowing for success even with less balanced teams, and focusing on completing specific mechanics for the content that any combination of roles can do.
    *(I emphasize that it's the Neverwinter Designers and Development team and not Cryptic, because STO does not have strict trinity roles, and it seems to not have this problem.)

    TLDR: this happens all the time when the Developers go this direction. If it's bothering you, let them know.
    Call me El, she/her only. Currently Professions-only until the next combat change fixes this mess.
  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    edited March 3
    Forcing unholy trinity ?!?!?! When i tank we pass rtq's without problems. Only codg can be a problem due to that we need damage/dps. Or tiamat. Both is about dps/damage. But, as a tank I can do something about tiamat, but nothing about codg. I can't remember when i failed redq as dps because i know how to help tank and how to do damage. So... And what i read in last demo ?!?!? For some person tanks and healers were guilty. Well, tanks and healers did good job. But some dps were opening all portals and first phase finished in bronze, other two in gold.
  • dietzgen#3883 dietzgen Member Posts: 25 Arc User
    Here is my 2 cent on this matter : the scalling and ilevel vs total percentage ratings is messed up.

    1. Scalling

    For example, TIC minimum Item Level to enter is 30k - lets say a tank and a group of people with that item level enter TIC would they be succesfull? Defitnetly they wont. Why because we can assume that those people didnt have a single mythic companion and mount in order to make their stat balanced, even if they somewhat do, the tank wont survive the boss attack.

    Im wondering what is the basis of Cryptyc minimum required ilevel of a dungeon, did those number just magically pop up? or Cryptyc only calculate the damage required on dps check with extreme minimum error margin on dps side, without considering the capabilities of other role?

    I'm not claiming as an expreinced gamers, but I atleast some other MMO. When they said minimum they mean it, yes we will having much trouble, yes it will takes more time but it's possible, we can do it, minimum means enough, the rest is up to the player, which is the knowledge of the mechanic of the fight.


    2. ilevel vs total ratings

    What i'm pointing is the ease to cap atleast 2 stat ratings with the help of Forte. DPS got much more ease to cap it and it only require litle effort.

    For example, my Barbarian Blademaster alt that got 30,568 ilevel and olny got 5 epic companion and only 2 epic mount. It only require a Sorbet and a Flask of potency to get 90% on power and Crit Sev and a decent, 60% accuracy

    And as for my tank on my main account I need atleast 1 mythic Green slime and 1 other Mythic companion with 2 stat that got deff on it to get to 90 % on my most important stat with the help from Forte.

    This mess makes most newbie tank, even the veteran one were having so much trouble struggling
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 914 Arc User
    I think that a good solution to this problem would be to reintroduce normal/epic content.

    The problems described are purely based on players skill and understanding of the combat system, not Cryptic hating the classes.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • holikiir#8597 holikiir Member Posts: 38 Arc User
    I don't think forcing the trinity is a problem, and for NW specifically I think it's important. I miss more diversity within dps (buffers, debuffers, controllers and other things we used to have in the past). But the thing for healers and tanks, in my opinion, is that new content and equips are mostly focused on DPS builds.

    Maybe it will get better with time, cause this new system introduced new stats we can get from equips but didn't change old equips, so we have a very very very little range of things to choose from as healers. For my dps alts I usually have 1-2 BiS options for every slot and some good and regular options too. For my healer it's is basically BiS or useless in most cases. And some slots/sets simply don't have a very good option.

    I don't tank, but I hear from tanks they have a similar experience (though I see more options of artifacts and sets at least).

    About mechanics being centered on healer and tanks I totally agree. And it creates a big problem for group content, cause there's no learning experience within the live server. On a trial you can have 4-5 experienced DPS and 1-2 learning. That's much harder to do for tanks and healers. And when you miss something, it's not a single body hitting the floor, it's all of them lol. Many of us have a dps alt to go through content before entering as a healer. Except for those few. And after combat changes you can't regular heal regular content without people dying a lot or spending lots of potions/stones.

    Personally, I like to play as a healer cause I think it's more challenging (for many factors, and a lot more things you have to pay attention to). But for game community I believe it's a little beyond that safe line.

    If playing a role is more difficult, more expensive, more time consuming, and you'll constantly get bashed for not knowing how to do things and killing your whole party, it's not hard to understand why it's so difficult to fulfill groups for dgs and trials. That rAD bonus is completely irrelevant. It's more like a bait when you're starting to play, so you might think it's more profitable to heal/tank XD

    An ideal path would be to have more dps-related mechanics and divide responsibilities. Together with that, more options of equipment, equip bonuses, mount bonuses, artifact set bonuses, etc, that would be useful for tanks/healers.

    But at this point I would be happy even with a refined AD compensation. The result would probably be people making new chars to farm AD but at least they would know the experience from inside... (And before someone quotes this part alone to say it's a bad idea, it's not a real suggestion, it's just me venting lol).

    Last but not least, I agree, in parts, that some of that is due to people not understanding their classes. But we have to admit the game is not nearly intuitive about how to properly develop your toon, what stats are important, why do we need companions and mounts, etc. It seems to be for us playing for years. For new players they don't figure out most things without someone to help or reading lots of guides. It's ok to need guides for complex mechanics on advanced content. That's intended to be hard. But to manage your equipment? I don't think so... Also, tooltips are a mess, and it's been a mess for a loooooooong time.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User

    teamwork requires everyone to take some responsibility for themselves, to work together.
    entering content without potions or heals..
    lacking enchants and in some cases lacking gear..
    running around like its a solo encounter, aggroing lots of mobs and running back to the team for help..
    running ahead to the next doorway avoiding mobs and leaving the others to fight everything in what to them is now a 4 man instance....
    dying and just laying there shouting for help, instead of just releasing to the last campfire and running back....you died ...do you really think you will do better with resurrection sickness affecting you?... this is why i leave you on the floor...and why if i die, i release and run back, instead of expecting people fighting to stop and take dmg while they get me up...effectively leaving only 3 people in combat....
    awareness isnt just a stat, dont stand in red areas on the ground unless you can absorb/cope with the damage youre about to get...and for heavens sake in content like tiamat if you die in the large red circles..dont bother shouting for help..no one is going to run in to get you up.

    tbh i dont know why im bothering to write this..people that read these posts already know all this, its the people that dont read them which are the problem....i mean ..they cant even be bothered to read chat in game when people type 'only open purple portals' ..if they are incapable of reading 4 words, i cant really expect them to be reading the forums now can i :(

    You are really concerned about these portals. :)
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,936 Arc User
    edited March 12
    Well, i restarted my lower level Vanguard (level 49, IL closing in on 17k) with full level appropriate gear, R9 enchantments, rare/epic companions, IL 900+ companion equipment, rare/epic/legendary mounts, uncommon/rare mount insignias - in short, doing the best i can with this character, but the daily RDQs i did for a while were just plain torture.

    Level appropriate regular content without any scaling is more or less manageable, but it's also far from being a fun experience, and considering that they pretty much destroyed bonus XP enchantments, and that there is no light at the end of the leveling tunnel, i simply gave up and parked the character near a camp fire for invoking again.

    I also started messing around with WoW after nearly a decade not touching it, and testing a Vengeance Demon Hunter or Blood Death Knight with crappy leveling equipment is more fun then playing my fully decked out Vanguard. And the same goes for the Garrison i can build in WoW with i guess every character? Anything i need for building it, i can get through questing and it's fun to watch your little outpost grow into a small settlement over time.

    My current summary:
    NWO = invested time > fun, payout
    WoW = invested time < fun, payout
    and that's why i bought the epic Shadowlands package in WoW and nothing for a very long time in NWO.

    Anyway, for now i'm just collecting my daily lockbox key and doing the New Sharandar grind on one of my 15 characters, i also have a level 80 Vanguard with above 40k IL, a level 80 Justicar and level 80 Sentinel around 30k IL but i'm simply too burned out through all these changes to bother adjusting them again. And honestly, what would be the point? Anything can change within the next module, and my invested time/money would be wasted again. No, thank you...
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 914 Arc User
    @gweddeoran#4924

    Disagreeing with you = derailment ?

    Provide input based on documented facts instead of opinions based on false information.
    Elite Whaleboy
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,518 Arc User

    Simple question, seems Cryptic hates Tanks and Healers [thats a very general opinion from chat, forum, etc].

    As a former Tank [and now a healer] from before Mod 16 I can attest that end game stuff places a lot of emphasis on the Tank and Healer to be the best they can be, or its a wipe.

    The Tank has to grab aggro, the healer has to time those heals almost to perfection on the real endgame stuff or its a wipe.

    Someone said elsewhere something like "the healer needs to have the dexterity and reflexes of a 13 year old kid on a sugar high to heal through some stuff".

    I agree, I can heal very well, know my place and for the vast majority of content can heal very well thank you.

    BUT there is too much emphasis in Endgame stuff place on Healers and Tanks, and the failed runs are down to the failings of healers and tanks. Which means healers and tanks are also less likely to participate in end game stuff.. a cycle of doom as you can see.

    The answer? Not sure... give tanks some real big hit points, defence etc?

    Weaken the damege done in end game dungeons?

    Lets talk abotu it sensibly like adults as the DPS community wont last long with unhappy tanks and healers :)

    Going back to my original post seems apt.

    Its a fact that there are less Tanks around [RQ time lag]

    Its a fact that healers cant heal as well as before.

    Its a fact that in endgame dungeons, mechanics and reaction times for tanks and healers are much harder to complete in the right time and right way than just slugging away at mobs. And of course, most players want to be the hero killing the dragon, not standing still holding a shield up hoping to not get one-shotted or praying the healer has enough divinity left to cast the big heal at exactly the right moment.

    I suggest make tanks more tanky, and give healers just that little bit more love i.e. +Outgoing Healing stuff and boost the healing output of some of the Encounter powers, and increase maximum divinity too, not loads, just enough to handle the healing required.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,904 Arc User
    edited March 12

    Simple question, seems Cryptic hates Tanks and Healers [thats a very general opinion from chat, forum, etc].

    As a former Tank [and now a healer] from before Mod 16 I can attest that end game stuff places a lot of emphasis on the Tank and Healer to be the best they can be, or its a wipe.

    The Tank has to grab aggro, the healer has to time those heals almost to perfection on the real endgame stuff or its a wipe.

    Someone said elsewhere something like "the healer needs to have the dexterity and reflexes of a 13 year old kid on a sugar high to heal through some stuff".

    I agree, I can heal very well, know my place and for the vast majority of content can heal very well thank you.

    BUT there is too much emphasis in Endgame stuff place on Healers and Tanks, and the failed runs are down to the failings of healers and tanks. Which means healers and tanks are also less likely to participate in end game stuff.. a cycle of doom as you can see.

    The answer? Not sure... give tanks some real big hit points, defence etc?

    Weaken the damege done in end game dungeons?

    Lets talk abotu it sensibly like adults as the DPS community wont last long with unhappy tanks and healers :)

    Going back to my original post seems apt.

    Its a fact that there are less Tanks around [RQ time lag]

    Its a fact that healers cant heal as well as before.

    Its a fact that in endgame dungeons, mechanics and reaction times for tanks and healers are much harder to complete in the right time and right way than just slugging away at mobs. And of course, most players want to be the hero killing the dragon, not standing still holding a shield up hoping to not get one-shotted or praying the healer has enough divinity left to cast the big heal at exactly the right moment.

    I suggest make tanks more tanky, and give healers just that little bit more love i.e. +Outgoing Healing stuff and boost the healing output of some of the Encounter powers, and increase maximum divinity too, not loads, just enough to handle the healing required.
    I suspect divinity could be the biggest contributor to issues for both clerics and pally tanks. The best healing, tanking and pally offence skills are all severely limited by divinity regen.

    The Defence formula is an equal factor of course - players take more damage now than last mod. There's more to heal!
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  • datarider#1036 datarider Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    armadeonx said:



    I suspect divinity could be the biggest contributor to issues for both clerics and pally tanks. The best healing, tanking and pally offence skills are all severely limited by divinity regen.

    The Defence formula is an equal factor of course - players take more damage now than last mod. There's more to heal!

    even more so - the divinity regen is not a number /that you can see/ and Im not sure what exactly this hamster Forte does for my healer :D
  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,518 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    Simple question, seems Cryptic hates Tanks and Healers [thats a very general opinion from chat, forum, etc].

    As a former Tank [and now a healer] from before Mod 16 I can attest that end game stuff places a lot of emphasis on the Tank and Healer to be the best they can be, or its a wipe.

    The Tank has to grab aggro, the healer has to time those heals almost to perfection on the real endgame stuff or its a wipe.

    Someone said elsewhere something like "the healer needs to have the dexterity and reflexes of a 13 year old kid on a sugar high to heal through some stuff".

    I agree, I can heal very well, know my place and for the vast majority of content can heal very well thank you.

    BUT there is too much emphasis in Endgame stuff place on Healers and Tanks, and the failed runs are down to the failings of healers and tanks. Which means healers and tanks are also less likely to participate in end game stuff.. a cycle of doom as you can see.

    The answer? Not sure... give tanks some real big hit points, defence etc?

    Weaken the damege done in end game dungeons?

    Lets talk abotu it sensibly like adults as the DPS community wont last long with unhappy tanks and healers :)

    Going back to my original post seems apt.

    Its a fact that there are less Tanks around [RQ time lag]

    Its a fact that healers cant heal as well as before.

    Its a fact that in endgame dungeons, mechanics and reaction times for tanks and healers are much harder to complete in the right time and right way than just slugging away at mobs. And of course, most players want to be the hero killing the dragon, not standing still holding a shield up hoping to not get one-shotted or praying the healer has enough divinity left to cast the big heal at exactly the right moment.

    I suggest make tanks more tanky, and give healers just that little bit more love i.e. +Outgoing Healing stuff and boost the healing output of some of the Encounter powers, and increase maximum divinity too, not loads, just enough to handle the healing required.
    I suspect divinity could be the biggest contributor to issues for both clerics and pally tanks. The best healing, tanking and pally offence skills are all severely limited by divinity regen.

    The Defence formula is an equal factor of course - players take more damage now than last mod. There's more to heal!
    Thanks that sums up my thoughts really accurately - its the divinity factor I will do a test a bit later and explain. Regenerating Divinity is healing down time, and in Endgame stuff you just have to know whats what and when to do whatever.

    And if your DPS are standing stock still in red splat zones...
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User

    mushellka said:

    Interesting. Mushellka agrees in someone ask for buffs to healing(while playing a healer), but if a tank ask for something reaction is LOL. You must be really bitter.

    Weeell :D I haven't noticed any healer asking for a dps boost to compete with DPSes. Maybe that's why...


    Well ... All my interventions in this forum have been focused on enhancing the capacity of tanks to tank (not a dmg boost), and your good "LOL" have also appeared in my posts as well ... xD

    So maybe the key is not in what is asked, just the role/class that asks for it. Maybe that's why ... :D
    The comfort of the game depends on you, I've written this before. Healers take a realistic approach to their "demands", none of them expect a star from heaven. They want items that supports their role.
    If you want tank-supporting items in the game, you have my 100% backing.
    If you dream about dealing the same damage as dps, but without the consequences of being a glass cannon, you get LOL..
    There's no easier way to explain my attitude.
    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
  • thany#4351 thany Member Posts: 202 Arc User
    edited March 13
    Well dps should play some time as a healer or as a tank. That way they'll see how much efforts t/h must put into gameplay. For a first time ever, in tiamat tonight, someone wrote me that (s)he felt safe arround me in mobs phases. But when i left to other side to help there he didn't feel safe anymore . And i did that multiple times because other tank (paladin ?!?!?) with 40K+ ilvl just didn't know how to play/tank tiamat. So i was on both sides... And if i didn't that - fail... And i tank rarely... But i started this game as a tank. So... Presure ? It depends... But it was nice to hear that i was great tank in that game.
  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 343 Arc User
    roku#3001 said:

    It would be nice if there was some +heal % equipment,

    the new braces from the seal vendor give outgoing healing (crone's braces or something), they give +459 OH (looooool)

  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    Cryptic are trying to stop the content from being rendered obsolete because of power creep. They want mechanics to be meaningful.

    Tank and heals are a key component of that. If you make it super easy for those two roles, well content is just easy.

    Coordination makes life a lot easier for a healer. If the DPS are grouped nicely, behind the boss it makes it soooo much easier for the heals. There is a massive difference between playing heals in a party that has some knowledge of how to play and in a party that doesn't. Massive difference.

    And imo they can't balance content for groups that have no idea, if you don't know what you are doing, you should fail the dungeon run.

    As someone said recently on one of the threads going around at the moment, they should bring back normal and epic dungeons. People who want life easy, where DPS can stand in red and it not place pressure on the heals, can go normal. People who want some challenge and can understand basic principles like "don't stand in red, use your dodge" can play Epic. They used to have that.

  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    lantern22 said:

    Cryptic are trying to stop the content from being rendered obsolete because of power creep. They want mechanics to be meaningful.

    Yeah, and they have succeeded too well with that. Now it is almost pointless to improve your gear in scaled content.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    edited March 13
    mushellka said:

    mushellka said:

    Interesting. Mushellka agrees in someone ask for buffs to healing(while playing a healer), but if a tank ask for something reaction is LOL. You must be really bitter.

    Weeell :D I haven't noticed any healer asking for a dps boost to compete with DPSes. Maybe that's why...


    Well ... All my interventions in this forum have been focused on enhancing the capacity of tanks to tank (not a dmg boost), and your good "LOL" have also appeared in my posts as well ... xD

    So maybe the key is not in what is asked, just the role/class that asks for it. Maybe that's why ... :D
    The comfort of the game depends on you, I've written this before. Healers take a realistic approach to their "demands", none of them expect a star from heaven. They want items that supports their role.
    If you want tank-supporting items in the game, you have my 100% backing.
    If you dream about dealing the same damage as dps, but without the consequences of being a glass cannon, you get LOL..
    There's no easier way to explain my attitude.
    Mushellka no one - no one - ever demand 100% equal damage of tank and dps. What you dream and read here should not be mixed, it does not help the debate.
    I do not know where this come from. Me i.e. complain about bad TTK, low damage - DPS protective reaction is tank want to deal same amount of damage??? Who demand equal damage? Quote here please.
    At the same time me i.e. complain about the lost need for tanks in many content. A tank cannot form a group if there is no demand. Why do you think anyone would demand tweaks, that tanks are needed again, but at the same time demand same damage as DPS to make DPS not needed anymore? This is insane. More <> Equal !!!

    And your comment about - glass canon - DPS. Well. Do we play the same game? There is not that much difference between tank and DPS. I know enough DPS players push ahead like tanks - have no problems - and kill enemies like superman. In many content. Even if they get into trouble, a good skilled player can do alot with blink or soulstate. I.e. yesterday I solo tanked LOMM worm as healer. No tank needed. Only defence Green slime 7,50%. I tanked demogorgon as Healer. Tiamat no Tank needed. CODG tank needed? Except CR I do not know a REDQ/RTQ in need of a tank. Maybe TONG, did not test yet without a tank. TIC is possible without tank, but DPS need to be skilled.

    The game is not only VOS or Zariel.
  • mushellkamushellka Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 357 Arc User



    Mushellka no one - no one - ever demand 100% equal damage of tank and dps. What you dream and read here should not be mixed, it does not help the debate.
    I do not know where this come from. Me i.e. complain about bad TTK, low damage - DPS protective reaction is tank want to deal same amount of damage??? Who demand equal damage? Quote here please.
    At the same time me i.e. complain about the lost need for tanks in many content. A tank cannot form a group if there is no demand. Why do you think anyone would demand tweaks, that tanks are needed again, but at the same time demand same damage as DPS to make DPS not needed anymore? This is insane. More <> Equal !!!

    And your comment about - glass canon - DPS. Well. Do we play the same game? There is not that much difference between tank and DPS. I know enough DPS players push ahead like tanks - have no problems - and kill enemies like superman. In many content. Even if they get into trouble, a good skilled player can do alot with blink or soulstate. I.e. yesterday I solo tanked LOMM worm as healer. No tank needed. Only defence Green slime 7,50%. I tanked demogorgon as Healer. Tiamat no Tank needed. CODG tank needed? Except CR I do not know a REDQ/RTQ in need of a tank. Maybe TONG, did not test yet without a tank. TIC is possible without tank, but DPS need to be skilled.

    The game is not only VOS or Zariel.

    Do the same on DC/SW and come back and tell us how it was :)
    Then we'll talk. I remind you that OP heal has a shield, however, on which is he able to stand while is hit by stones in lomm
    I don't like the way you manipulate the facts.

    Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
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