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I just had one of those "Whoa..." moments.

hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
edited February 1 in General Discussion (PC)
You know that feeling when the proverbial light bulb suddenly comes on and you realize something major? I just had that feeling. We call it "having an epiphany".

I just finished running Cloak Tower and we got murdered at the last boss -- not by the boss herself, but by the inrush of adds that overwhelmed us. I was going to rush over here and start complaining about how the balance was way off, it was way too hard, and so on.

And then the light bulb came on.

"Whoa. Wait a second. This isn't unbalanced, this is OLD school," my mind went. And then I got it.

We need CC for this fight. Like in the old days. We don't get to just rush in and roflstomp the fight anymore; we need to bring along someone who can control the adds."

I suddenly went from being about to complain to thinking, "yeah, this is what we've been asking for." And a big smile came across my face.

Better start dusting off those CC skills, removing the cobwebs from that long-closed wing in your brains, people, or building that wing if you weren't here before mod 6. You're going to need them.

Finally.
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Post edited by hustin1 on
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Comments

  • josephskyrimjosephskyrim Member Posts: 356 Arc User
    It sounds like the old saying is true once more.

    "If you kill the adds, you will win Neverwinter."
    If you can't stand on a chest, it is a mimic!
  • samerikersameriker Member Posts: 159 Arc User
    Yes we did the same, yesterday in the same leveling dungeon. I have a tank that I am leveling. He was 1 level too low for the quests in Whispering Caverns. I joined a PUG and we got stomped by the adds. The wizard changed her build to CC the adds while we took down the boss. It was a good crew, I got lucky they were on top of what needed to be done. The best I could do as my tank was put my Makos companion on, I call him Fakos. Glad people are figuring it out.
    Fame is a vapor, popularity an accident; the only earthly certainty is oblivion. ~ Mark Twain
  • ultramath#3953 ultramath Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    Hey hustin1, could this type of thinking be applied to Pirate's Skyhold? What if you used old-school tactics like pulling groups into safe zones to fight so you don't overpull aggro during a fight with mobs that zip backwards in animations and get more enemies to come running at you? The areas with little islands and bridges are practically demanding you pull mobs onto the bridges so you only end up fighting one group at a time.

    I encountered all these kinds of problems during the leveling process just like you with my no-potion trashGWF barbarian playthru on the help thread. You can read a synopsis of the issues I had while leveling, and what I had to do to overcome them.
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,331 Arc User
    In which case, could they please reduce the infuriating cooldowns on CW skills? :o
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
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  • rev#7881 rev Member Posts: 334 Arc User
    edited February 8
    The only time i ran that dungeon while leveling i actually had to use banishment on the last boss, in order to not get wiped.

    But the system is still too unbalanced, tanks can't tank all that dmg (they can barely tank the boss) dps's have low dmg, low defenses and high cooldowns, even with a lvl 30 paladin (worst healer right now) that already had companions/legendary artifacts/mounts i couldn't heal all that dmg.
    Stop with that "old neverwinter is back" HAMSTER, it's not the same, cooldowns were different, feats at lvl 10+, and good cc, that's what we don't have
    Post edited by rev#7881 on
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,318 Arc User
    Cooldowns on CC powers are definitely too high. I'm 100% with you there.
    Harper Chronicles: Cap Snatchers (RELEASED) - NW-DPUTABC6X
    Blood Magic (RELEASED) - NW-DUU2P7HCO
    Children of the Fey (RELEASED) - NW-DKSSAPFPF
    Buried Under Blacklake (WIP) - NW-DEDV2PAEP
    The Redcap Rebels (WIP) - NW-DO23AFHFH
  • lordmanshoonlordmanshoon Member Posts: 351 Arc User
    Cryptic has never liked giving players CC, and through the years...very much like a bottom feeding parasite, has sucked out the life of the artist formerly known as control wizard. You know who Cryptic loves giving CC to? -Trash mobs. In REAL Dungeons & Dragons, all wizards are the epitome of a CC smackdown. Those orcs over there-my bish. That dragon in the back-my bish. Your armed guards, yep- my bish.
  • hexngone#5489 hexngone Member Posts: 239 Arc User
    So, what you are saying (and I thank you for your epiphany moment sharing) is that, *Surprise*, Cryptic has once again only partially implemented a change.

    Someone, about a year ago, thought it would be 'fun' to start spawning adds in dungeons if the player could not kill the existing mobs fast enough. I remember my first shock when following the big Orc in the garden court in Merchant's mini-dungeon (I normally killed the few adds and looted the skill nodes in the room first). Suddenly here were 4 and then 8 axe throwers that I thought came in from some other room because I aggroed them there. No, it was just that I took more time than I should have and so deserved to be punished for doing something in the 'wrong' order.

    Now that I've been doing Sharandar quests a million times on all my alts, kill the Whitherer's(healers) is the recipe there. But as you noted, the bouncing electric casters in Bearing Arms tend to jump to the aggro zone of the neighboring groups to bring adds ... and then, heaven forbid, the Quickling event is running and you get 2,4,6 quicklings biting your heals while you are avoiding the Thorns and that caster. Takes a 'little' event and turns it into a major stressful moment, especially when soloing.

    I have not tried the Cult Prison or Drake Pens with all their adds since the changes.

    Some of the CC effects (repel or Steal TIme) tend to knock mobs to adjacent aggro zones as well (if your companion doesn't do it for you first).

    Ya, I sure wish the Devs would actually play an area with the lowest possible equipment level before they design things for all the high level players returning to the zone. On all classes. Sharandar needs 2400 damage on Paladin or healing Cleric to succeed. That would make you 24K IL in a level 64 zone ... I don't think that matches.
  • oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    Well, root them! Root, freeze, slow - these are the tools required - it has to be played more collectively in the party - DPS, Tank, Healer (with some type of debuff encounters) - like my Ranger can root - I try to check the advancing herds by slashing and rooting them for the heavy DPS to take out - my Paladin has a stun to the same effect - seen wizards freezing them - think there's other types - best combo - root + aoe - fast enough to kill em all! LoL!
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited February 4
    Root - Freeze - Slow - Stun - Daze - Confuse - Knockdown - Immobilized - Poisoned - Bleeding - On Fire

    One of the big issues with these 'effects' is that players do not know which ones are affected by Control and do not know which effects are giving Combat Advantage. How many new players know the damage formula for Poison, Bleed, and Fire? It would be awesome if Cryptic published an accurate 'conditions' guide or summary.
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 143 Arc User
    Yeah, I’m glad you had a moment..but the control complaint has been going on for a while as wizards got hit hard, also solo content. Just the daily quests for areas should NOT require a whole party.
    Fix that part. Fix wizards.
    Sigh, so much to fix.
  • hfleethfleet Member Posts: 133 Arc User
    I play a Solo Control Wizard. I find most areas of the game playable.

    I also take recording of various runs over the years. The countdown timers and play now resembles Pre-Mod6 era. (Many players got very used to the Super Fast Countdowns obtainable from Mod6-16, but the game was re-balanced)

    This took a little adjustment, couldn't just Span-Cycle through the Encounter Powers. Had to play with a little care.

    That's Fine. Just takes some practice.

    Also: as a side note, I've noticed how big a difference good CC has on a fight. I'll sometimes watch a HE once before joining another time (or play once using Single Target Attack Powers only) - then join with a CC build to see the difference. Night and Day! CC has a huge effect.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,841 Arc User
    edited February 6
    Well, the bosses aren't the real problem, the minions or "trash mobs" are.

    I have a level 43 Vanguard, got Grey Wolf Den for my daily RDQ run, and in there a pack of regular 1-dot enemies can punch through my defense as if they're nothing, while bosses hit rather softly and i can more or less ignore their attacks and stand right in "the red" - and yes, i block, i try to keep those normal buggers in front of my shield and i have pretty much all healing mount powers plus an epic healer companion working for me, but it's still not enough.

    So, it looks like the "trend" continues, and btw. if i'm struggling with all that experience and equipment, how on God's green earth is a new player going to play successfully through this HAMSTER storm?

    And don't get me startet on the "rewards" we're currently getting for suffering through this mess, if the rewards would actually reflect the time i've to invest in getting through a dungeon/skirmish, i'd be like "You know what, it's harder, but at least there's a better payoff at the end.", but it's more like "Why the HAMSTER do i even queue for this HAMSTER?".

    To top it all of, they just had to nerf XP enchantments too... it's like they were looking at this hot mess they created and thought "How can we make it worse?". I mean with a faster leveling process, there was at least some light at the end of that tunnel, but they had to snuff that out too...

    Playing around with an undergeared fresh level 80 in Avernus is more fun and rewarding then playing through low and mid level content with a decently equipped "level appropriate" character - now that's really saying something about the "game balance" we have right now.
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • kharkov58kharkov58 Member Posts: 580 Arc User
    While Cryptic was at it, they had to nerf gold gain as well. This is how they are "improving" rewards.
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,763 Arc User
    kharkov58 said:

    While Cryptic was at it, they had to nerf gold gain as well. This is how they are "improving" rewards.

    The less you get the better it all looks.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • oktlryk#2717 oktlryk Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    Everyone just feels for the new players - I felt the same thing when I played my lower level characters - How would someone get through this if they're already getting ploughed! - it takes a huge demand on the casual new player who may become an End Gamer given the progressive complications that arise but only later right?

    When I also realized, the same easy casual stuff may be too simplistic for people giving the game a spin - they may not have guessed that the end game got more challenging - and if that was the case, how would you say, hmm click.. click.. this isn't very playable... Which is in fact what I thought as well a little bit into the game the first time - I'm sure you might have a similar experience - LoL! - But I enjoyed the story, then I started getting interested in the encounters and dailies and other stuff - and I thought well it's pretty casual but I guess it's not turn based or start stop - huray! LoL!

    So maybe this is something new players would come to work out well enough - getting into the mechanics and gameplay at an earlier stage. While an end gamer I took some time finally to work out what was what and now I have a decent set of characters who of course still need lots of upgrades and so on - but finding it a good game all in all - so if starting earlier would mean that at higher levels they'd not be as clueless as 'new end gamers' may be, it'd be actually better for the whole new player getting into NW thing - and doing 'end game' formulations from the start or thereabouts would make an expert player indeed - however IDK at which level it starts getting hard! LoL! - I hope not at Valindra's on the bridge - LoL! My lowest is L17 so it was tough enough...

    It seems as if it could be going great for the new players - cuz I was noticing a few of them having a good time and leveling up and enjoying the IL, stat challenge, gear and companion configurations and so on - which I didn't really need to do! LoL - or even if I did it later on my other characters, I did it for fun and out of a sense of a DnD adventure! Now it's make or break - more to find interesting and space for increasing gameplay quality.

    Anyway, if it's a flop it's bound to be fixed soon enough - LoL! I better get more epic upgrades introduced to my alts - yup - even at the level where there's kobolds around - (don't ask me where I first tried out the new changes - you don't wanna know - LoL!). Maybe it'll be fun, and it's double XP right now - could give it a shot later on...

    Another thing to note is (ignore this if you have done Elemental Evil) it wouldn't be too simple now (like even Maze was) - so probably much more action on the way to end game! I didn't complete EE cuz it was ridiculous - too easy to play, already hitting 80 and finding more interesting stuff around - learning curve etc. - But in the end, I would love to go back to EE and have a go - I tried a few Defender Quests from Maze (hardly any scaling the last I checked) - and maybe it's not that much harder now or not yet there, IDK! - But my alt will reach 60 and maybe find it rightly hard! LoL! Wouldn't that be a great... - LoL!


  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 212 Arc User
    The worst thing for new players is the total ban on communication until certain goals have been met. A MMORPG that muzzles new players doesn't seem friendly to new players. Not a Perfect World. Rather Cryptic.
  • rosh#3730 rosh Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited February 6
    Like @adinosii said I will just do sharandar campaign and get my key I dont even care about the 100k ad per day I mean the 10 cents per day for playing the game my time is worth more than this, just 1 hour working I can get 20$ why should I spend it for 1 cent as return of time investment

    Since the game is becoming more of work than a game at this point

    Till they up the rewards for effort I am not falling in for this shenanigans

    Also have you guys noticed the lack of Healers and Tanks especially as of late just saying
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,175 Arc User
    While CC helps, you don't really need it for CT endboss. You just need this thing called tactics. In this case, kill the adds as they spawn, before hurting boss any further. Simple.

    We have been so used to roflstomping the low-end dungeons over the years that we have forgotten that even those DO have some minor tactics elements.
  • ziggerlinziggerlin Member Posts: 53 Arc User

    While CC helps, you don't really need it for CT endboss. You just need this thing called tactics. In this case, kill the adds as they spawn, before hurting boss any further. Simple.

    We have been so used to roflstomping the low-end dungeons over the years that we have forgotten that even those DO have some minor tactics elements.

    Yep. Ignore the adds and stay on Vansi, and watch a dozen adds burn everyone down and wipe the party.
  • josephskyrimjosephskyrim Member Posts: 356 Arc User
    edited February 7
    ziggerlin said:

    While CC helps, you don't really need it for CT endboss. You just need this thing called tactics. In this case, kill the adds as they spawn, before hurting boss any further. Simple.

    We have been so used to roflstomping the low-end dungeons over the years that we have forgotten that even those DO have some minor tactics elements.

    Yep. Ignore the adds and stay on Vansi, and watch a dozen adds burn everyone down and wipe the party.
    "Kill the adds, win the game."

    Just like old times... I wonder if the new devs realize the old devs had a reason to switch to the faster paced "one punch man/overpowered" system that did away with that statement. Oh well! It will be a learning experience for them too!
    If you can't stand on a chest, it is a mimic!
  • flyball#6248 flyball Member Posts: 125 Arc User
    I seem to be doing better with my rogue than my Barb, Rogue is better at dodging with the roll and bladestorm helps much more with the mobs and adds in group events....more so than any of the AOE from my Barb. Heck with my Rogue I am hitting both Vansi and the adds.

    On the other hand it would have been nice for my alt to get those free gifts after upgrade. Likewise being able have both main and alt have access to the buyer's companion would be nice.

    My reasoning is simply when you are new to the game do you really know which class/race you want to play in terms of personal enjoyment? I started with my Barb and yes I enjoy immensely sweeping baddies away with a greatsword. I also like being sneaky and finding how to get CA for a good backstab with my rogue.

    I would also like to try playing a pally or warlock but as I won't have any gifts to share or get, there is really no reason for me to explore other classes or even purchase something like the gith or dragonborn bundles.

    That was one thing WoW got right during their anniversary celebration.....All your characters (any any you created at the time) got the benefits of receiving the rewards.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,841 Arc User
    Well, the other problem with Vansi beside spawning adds like rabbits is, that she jumps around like a squirrel on LSD during the whole fight, which often leads to her catching some AoE attacks that were meant for the minions, which in return will spawn even more minions. And i think we should also keep in mind that the dungeon was made for level 12 characters, that have a rather limited selection of abilities...

    Btw. the Dragonborn and Gith race packs actually feature account-wide content - so, buying them is a good investment, if you plan on creating more then one character. In fact, those and some of the older packs are the only ones left with some solid account-wide perks in them, i mean the current one has an account-wide mount too, but considering the overall price for the pack, not really worth it imho.

    Anyway, my Vanguard reached level 45 today, and i'm rather happy i haven't seen a Cloak Tower dungeon run for a while now...
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 583 Arc User
    regenerde said:

    And i think we should also keep in mind that the dungeon was made for level 12 characters, that have a rather limited selection of abilities...

    Thanks for saying this and pointing things out.
    With all the pretty progressed toons in CT saying its ez pz I was wondering if they brought back epic CT.

    - bye bye -
  • josephskyrimjosephskyrim Member Posts: 356 Arc User

    regenerde said:

    And i think we should also keep in mind that the dungeon was made for level 12 characters, that have a rather limited selection of abilities...

    Thanks for saying this and pointing things out.
    With all the pretty progressed toons in CT saying its ez pz I was wondering if they brought back epic CT.

    Wait what? You're not supposed to do any dungeons until you reach level 80. Didn't you get the memo? Welcome to the new combat system! /s
    If you can't stand on a chest, it is a mimic!
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,841 Arc User
    edited February 12

    regenerde said:

    And i think we should also keep in mind that the dungeon was made for level 12 characters, that have a rather limited selection of abilities...

    Thanks for saying this and pointing things out.
    With all the pretty progressed toons in CT saying its ez pz I was wondering if they brought back epic CT.

    Wait what? You're not supposed to do any dungeons until you reach level 80. Didn't you get the memo? Welcome to the new combat system! /s
    Well, at this point i'm honestly wondering what the whole purpose of the combat rework and the scaling was or is - since it's not making the game overall better for low, mid or high level characters...

    Btw. i had a "Whoa..." moment as well while looking at the "Heartfelt Pack of Love" - they do really believe that players are going to spend more money here after all this HAMSTER?
    Post edited by regenerde on
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
    Because it sends a message!
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,331 Arc User
    edited February 12
    Yeah well, people yip-yap about what they think but the only thing that will alter Cryptic's mentality is whether or not it impacts on players spending real money on the game. Only if there is a large enough (sustained) drop in revenue will there be a rethink.

    I suspect one of the reasons they are not making any comments atm is because they are just watching the figures.

    To be clear, I like SOME of the changes (e.g. having a cap on power & a percentage of effectiveness) but some are obviously not done for the players benefit (e.g. splitting stats into two groups & downgrading the importance of boons & enchantments in favor of mounts & companions)
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

    Xael De Armadeon: DC
    Xane De Armadeon: CW
    Zen De Armadeon: OP
    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
    Chrion De Armadeon: SW
    Gosti Big Belly: GWF
    Barney McRustbucket: GF
    Lt. Thackeray: HR
    Lucius De Armadeon: BD (coming soon)


  • callumf#9018 callumf Member Posts: 1,449 Arc User
    rosh#3730 said:

    Like @adinosii said I will just do sharandar campaign and get my key I dont even care about the 100k ad per day I mean the 10 cents per day for playing the game my time is worth more than this, just 1 hour working I can get 20$ why should I spend it for 1 cent as return of time investment


    Since the game is becoming more of work than a game at this point


    Till they up the rewards for effort I am not falling in for this shenanigans


    Also have you guys noticed the lack of Healers and Tanks especially as of late just saying

    I main a healer now and the random q pops for me really fast.

    And as a fairly good healer, not just a healer loadout, its always appreciated.
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