The thing is that its not suddenly "difficult" no.. its suddenly boring. Its not like I cannot do what I could do before. It is that I suddenly feel absolutely no motivation to do anything because everything takes forever, stuns me, isn't rewarding or is borked. If you are bored, go and check some other sources of NW-information and see how broken dungeons are. Thats just the icing on a boring game.
If fights take forever, you are prone to make mistakes of course. People seem to think that when new players struggle it is because they suddenly face a better suited learning curve, but imo it's just... taking forever, paired with ca/awareness struggles. Before, you started the game naked, you fought some lvling boss with the gear you found on the way - and then he was dead. Now he has plenty of time to kick your HAMSTER because you can't just beat him down. He did not suddenly find a new game with more engaging mechanics (in lvling content) on his way to NW. If you really need a difficult game, there are plenty. NW has a big big pool of casual players. Deeming their "player presence" was previously not required is just not true for starters, and if you need something that is challenging you - make your own challenge.
But, its a good example on how players receive the sudden change in game dynamics from "player presence not needed" to exhausting. Its quite easy to see everywhere. *spam filter won't get me this time
I read and read and I cannot understand the reason for scaling. Maybe I am not very smart in this sense, but I still consider scaling should be removed (or at least minimized). Why do I have to be weaker if I want to do previous content? If I have worked hard to increase my character, I want my character to be strong not only in open zones, but also in ALL places. If I am strong, I dont want to struggle doing Master of the Hunt (for instance). Of course I can do it, but it is slower and it makes no sense to have my item level reduced to half in different places. This is a game and it should be fun... Scaling should be removed and players have the same strength no matter where or when. If your character is not strong to do some content, work on it and you will be stronger and rewarded in the future...
I read and read and I cannot understand the reason for scaling. Maybe I am not very smart in this sense, but I still consider scaling should be removed (or at least minimized). Why do I have to be weaker if I want to do previous content? If I have worked hard to increase my character, I want my character to be strong not only in open zones, but also in ALL places. If I am strong, I dont want to struggle doing Master of the Hunt (for instance). Of course I can do it, but it is slower and it makes no sense to have my item level reduced to half in different places. This is a game and it should be fun... Scaling should be removed and players have the same strength no matter where or when. If your character is not strong to do some content, work on it and you will be stronger and rewarded in the future...
It is all about the New Coke formula, blind testing told the developers that the formula needed to be changed. The company spent a lot of money making the new and improved formula. When so few of us liked the new formula, the old classic is brought back, but later they needed to rebrand the old new formula for another attempt. All the money was spent creating the new formula, it must be put to use. This is round two. To me pop is pop, I can drink RC, Coke, or Pepsi, it don't matter to me.
I am also bored. And i started thinking... why even bother gearing up more when i know scaling means i am fully capable of the content, i just can't access it and if i know i can do it anyway then what really is the point? I don't even need to make a build or others to do the content when whatever i role up with can.... Gear = useless, players builds = useless for me doing that is the fun.
Please remove codg from rtq. It's not fun to tank x6 failed codg in random games. Soon, no one will tank/heal in pubgames. People(dps) are struggling even with cords. Scalling is bad/broken there.
Guys, thank you for posting your negative (and somewhat personal) comments. It's obvious a lot of people are frustrated. I have seen this kind of backlash happen this exact way, with this exact game, at many separate times in the past. In every single other instance of this happening, things got tweaked a little bit, most people calmed down, and then life went on. Some people ragequit, some people made entire websites devoted to bashing Neverwinter -- heck, some people still are upset on the forums about the loss of the Foundry and that was a long time ago.
The hard truth of all this is: nobody is forcing you to play this game right now as it is. If you are having mental health issues, do something else for a while. Come back in a month. Or don't. They are obviously not done tweaking this thing yet. Obviously. If playing "the beta" here is freaking you out, make the healthy choice and put it down until it's fixed. For example, I am parking trashGWF until they fix Hotenow because it's messed up and I can't manage it yet.
The posts in the Bug Report section are made. Have you guys actually posted relevant and constructive and specific feedback in the bug report section about things that the developers might want to look at? Specific feedback might be helpful. Maybe just chime in on my bug reports and confirm stuff to add your voice, or maybe even add more stuff that you have noticed that I didn't mention.
Try to think about this from my perspective, if you can: I have watched people freak out and say stuff like "this is the death of this game, i am never playing again, the devs are idiots, etc." and then the game went on just fine for years afterwards, with every new change bringing THE EXACT SAME BACKLASH every single time. It is exactly what is happening now. So after seeing this multiple times, I already know how this ends. So do you.
So you are left with a choice. I already made mine even before this patch because I already knew that the forums were going to be on fire, because they ALWAYS ARE after this kind of thing happens. I knew my thread would get flamed at least a little bit, because... DUH... but that doesn't mean it wasn't worth it to do it.
I know I've helped some people with pointers to get through the bugged leveling areas. Some of you hollered at me for not being mad, and then proceeded to be very helpful right here by posting the results of bugged dungeon runs and things that you felt were missing or not tweaked correctly. Hey, if you have to call me a shill in order to offer constructive feedback afterwards then call me a shill! You're not hurting MY feelings. And... what if... what if the devs really ARE reading this thread? Maybe? Probably not, but... you never know. I still think that posting feedback in the bug section about bugs might be more visible to whoever, but there it is.
So let's address what you are putting out.
The hard truth is... the majority of players are casual. They are not TOMM, Zariel, or IC ready. They are the ones that don't have 1 of everything. They are quitting. We're are losing players from our guilds - and this just dropped.
I've sent a number of tickets in over the last few years. Exactly 2 have been resolved. The rest - bugs - have not been resolved to date.
Death of the game comes when people get constant crashes, feel like they are being robbed, and cannot figure out how a game is suppose to work. How many people quit with Mod 16? I lost 3 players in 15 minutes because they were so made they just said f-it. When we cannot add players to the guilds, when no one is playing, that IS WHEN game is dead.
No one says anyone has to be mad or not. People have every right to be angry right now though. Real world money was spent on items - that got nerfed. The Devs are listing to a few PC dudes that have every toon and all the stuff in the game. The game's crashes are pissing everyone off. The fact that the game is so hard to figure out and doesn't have some kind of guide - is abysmal.
I don't call anyone a shill. It's silly. But, stop apologizing for their mistakes. Games need to be fun. Games have rules, information, and it needs to be consistent. This one does not have those written anywhere to help people out. There's no information for this. So people are angry, justifiably so. It's not your place to tell someone to leave.
I read and read and I cannot understand the reason for scaling. Maybe I am not very smart in this sense, but I still consider scaling should be removed (or at least minimized). Why do I have to be weaker if I want to do previous content? If I have worked hard to increase my character, I want my character to be strong not only in open zones, but also in ALL places. If I am strong, I dont want to struggle doing Master of the Hunt (for instance). Of course I can do it, but it is slower and it makes no sense to have my item level reduced to half in different places. This is a game and it should be fun... Scaling should be removed and players have the same strength no matter where or when. If your character is not strong to do some content, work on it and you will be stronger and rewarded in the future...
There are good reasons for scaling (note: not necessarily the way Cryptic has implemented it) * Cryptic content production is very low, so to avoid a situation where you have 2 properly tuned dungeons and 20 trivial ones, scaling must be used. If a dungeon is trivial it will after some time both be boring, AND you cannot give out good rewards for doing it since there needs to be some reasonable effort vs reward ratio. * For players new to game, it is not very fun to do dungeons when massively overpowered veterans are just one-hitting everything. And new players probably is where the income is, not the old players. So to keep the combat power levels in the dungeons somewhat on the same scale, scaling must be used.
However, contrary to this is the players desire for progress and reward. One of the major rewards and reasons for building up your character is to be able to do older content easily. Scaling obviously makes progressing a bit pointless when it comes to dungeons. Overland zones are not scaled, so you get the progress feeling there, but the most challenging content is in the dungeons.
I do share a feeling that it is pointless to progress in Neverwinter now. Overland zones you usually can manage even with low gear, and in dungeons good gear has very little effect.
However, the feeling of progress typically is something of value to old-time veterans. Those might not be important for Neverwinter, income-wise. I assume veterans spend way less on game than newcomers since they are mostly done with basic gearing. And you will note that those people participating on the boards to a large extent *are* the veterans. So the sentiment on the board could be skewed, with newcomer voices not being heard.
I completely disagree mentinmindmaker... I am a "veteran" as is a LOT of my guild. We were spending money right up to the changes, and had planned on spending more...but, due to scaling, we realized that there is no need, and sure, some new players will spend some coin, until they realize that regardless of how much they spend, they will be forever an "average" hero. Epic or God like heroes are gone. Now, in ToMM and ZCM you do reap the rewards of having BiS, but seriously, are you going to spend $100's just so you can run 2 dungeons???
In fact, both novice and advanced players are right to complain. I been playing Neverwinter for almost 6 years and reached a very high level in mod 16, after that I just play casually and stopped investing in my 8 characters. I have two more characters and I play with them from level 1 to 80, and then I start again. I have millions of AD and I don't even know what to do with them as it is not worth updating the equipment to be leveled up to the level of a novice player. But speaking of beginners, it is not fair that players cannot finish a low level dungeon and cannot collect AD. It is also not fair that none of them can play the normal game content without continuing to die. I have helped many novice players to finish several maps that are now impossible to play solo. It gives me the feeling that the developers don't realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot. With all these changes they are not only pushing away advanced players but also new players. For the sake of Neverwinter, a game that I loved but that I can only tolerate now, I hope that all this mess will change quickly.
I have played quite a bit since the update and made several adjustments to my setup trying to tweak it to be better balanced. all I can say is in general after all that and trying to give a little credit that this update is broken as hell. Scaling is stupid and extra broken. Several areas are either way out of whack or have certain creatures that are just laughably broken.
I played around in Icewind Dale for a while still it is just overpowered for what it is. Taking on a small group of barbarians can be an adventure. So I went to Chult to see how that was. Much harder but it seemed overall manageable, at least until I ran into those little shamans. After killing off their compatriots it would take three or four rounds of every skill I have to kill them...unless of course they healed themselves then add two or three more on. Forget doing an HE encounter powers barely even register that I hit them. For comparison I went to Vallenhas and ran some of the glyph works quests. After getting to the main demon at the glyph works it took one round of powers plus two at will hits to take them out. Something is seriously wrong with that.
Running low level randoms is a joke. I'm wailing away on everything because encounter powers are fairly useless even on the trash. Do we win? Sure. Is it worth spending all the extra time for what you get? NO. I can the skirmish and trial in the same time frame and its actually easier. Epics are challenging but similar to how they were if you get a decent group.
I know I'm not saying anything new here but one update and what four patches later its still pretty much a train wreck. Glad they pushed off add new content. Get this fixed first!
Well, still downloading the latest big patch, can't say if it's better or worse then before right now... but as mentioned in another thread, Avernus is actually challenging but still manageable on a fresh level 80 character with some basic equipment/R9 enchantments from the Auction House and nearly 0 boons.
On the other hand my level 40+ decently equipped Vanguard is having a hard time doing content created for his level - so yeah, something is still not right with scaling in the low and mid level areas.
To sum it up, up-scaling is doing a great job in helping new or returning players getting into the latest content, while down scaling is wrecking havoc in pretty much most lower level content.
Level 80 wizard in the Whispering caverns is nearly impossible to complete. The Mind-Flayer dogs will hit for a quarter of your hp each and you will fight packs of them. Even with a team of 4, all level 80, we get destroyed. This game has destroyed itself. I destroy the drow, druegar and driders without even trying, but the mind flayer area is unfair. I went through 25 injury kits just trying to find the trick for the Mastermind guarding the pool you have to poison. I killed every roaming party of mind flayers with their dogs around the pool, but every time I approach it, I get swarmed by more dogs and mind flayers and can survive long enough to use a potion, then get killed long before the cool down resets. It is bad enough to make me uninstall the game.
It's fine that tactics matters, it is not fine that tactic matters in areas in which my character should be much stronger than the mobs around, since it is way below my level. I could play with some challenge in Avernus and I never complained that mobs could kill me if I wasn't careful, but that was par for my level, now I die in areas where someone about 30 level lower should be able to play, how are they going to do that?
EXACTLY!!!! I can say this enough. Do completely away with scaling across the board!!!! It should've never been in the game in the first place. I remember leveling through the initial storyline when Mod 2 was new and if I shouldn't have been in an area I died quickly and painfully. Of course back then, you couldn't max level a toon in a few hours. The game was more fun then also. I remember running Valindra and we were happy as a pig in slop the first time we completed it because we had figured out to not let the mobs build and improved our gear to allow that not to happen. It took us a month to better our gear and enchantments and runestones enough to be able to finish it. The work meant something though and we all did it. Now I can lower my Item level and have an easier time in the areas, dungeons, trials, etc. Please don't say anything about stats being better balance in do so. The concept as applied is enough to make a person hurl. Besides that, I have enough tradebars and AD's, pets and mounts to match the percentages on a lower item level. It's scaling plain and simple. Denial doesn't make it not true.
The game is also soulless with no storyline, and everything is cut and paste from previous work. Many didn't like Avernus, but at least it was new and different and had a plot and story to it. I would rather have better thought out content with little or no bugs then multiple mods every year that have no story, rehashed areas, and so many bugs it would take an army of programmers/devs months to find and fix working 24/7. I've defended this game consistently for 8 years, but I do have to say that it hasn't been this bad in a very long time.
This should not be happening, either what you are facing does need to be scaled down (things get missed, there are a lot of areas in the game), or something is bugged with your character. Most people are actually liking the changes, PE, forums, and discord noise is just the loud minority.
Actually there are quite a lot of people below lvl 80 complaining. I am sorry, but you will find threads in here about this, and if you ask people that just play this game casually or have mostly RP toons that did Shar/DR/you name it OR are still lvling are disappointed and ask what they can do to get back to where we've been before, which was stated WOULD NOT BE NECESSARY.
So I just did a DR lair on my level 70, 20k iL Thaumaturge with an augment where I just threw together random skills and feats because I haven't played that class since M15. Took about 15 minutes to do Phantasmal Fortress. Yes, mobs had more HP and they hurt a bit more, but it's not the OMG one shot killing that people are complaining about.
Why on God's green earth would I or anyone else even want to spend 15 mins in PF if we completed that area years ago? I can do it in about 5 mins BTW. There is still a noticeable difference though and my item level is around 52k. I do it for the lvl 5 enchantment and to get currency to make vouchers. If I'm going to be forced to grind an area that is 10's of thousands item level below me, I should be able to walk through it using at wills like Legolas in Helms Deep. That is why scaling should be abolished completely. For the newer content, it's actually easier with a lower Item Level. I've tested that myself. I can't however solo the HE's with a lower Item level and stats without using a stone of health charge or two, so at least that is working.
Well, it feels like when you participate in a HE with an "scaled up" character, everyfuckingthing aggros you from a mile away in an instant and you either start running and trying to finish one group at the time, or end up using Health Stones en mass.
And no, my character is not being "one shotted" there, but since i'm fighting whole groups of enemies most of the time, my character is being melted within seconds, which isn't exactly fun either, and one does wonder, if this wasn't made intentionally to boost Health Stone and Scroll of Life sales...
Sure, i still have stacks of Health Stones from promotions across several characters, but newer players might only have a few Health Potions on hand, which won't last them long, and then they might then be tempted into buying stones or scrolls for real money - or at least that's what i guess some bean counter is hoping for.
Only problem with it, some players might just leave the game for good instead, and those players won't be recommending this game or any other (new) game from this company to their friends either.
Comments
Its not like I cannot do what I could do before. It is that I suddenly feel absolutely no motivation to do anything because everything takes forever, stuns me, isn't rewarding or is borked.
If you are bored, go and check some other sources of NW-information and see how broken dungeons are. Thats just the icing on a boring game.
If fights take forever, you are prone to make mistakes of course.
People seem to think that when new players struggle it is because they suddenly face a better suited learning curve, but imo it's just... taking forever, paired with ca/awareness struggles. Before, you started the game naked, you fought some lvling boss with the gear you found on the way - and then he was dead. Now he has plenty of time to kick your HAMSTER because you can't just beat him down. He did not suddenly find a new game with more engaging mechanics (in lvling content) on his way to NW.
If you really need a difficult game, there are plenty. NW has a big big pool of casual players. Deeming their "player presence" was previously not required is just not true for starters, and if you need something that is challenging you - make your own challenge.
But, its a good example on how players receive the sudden change in game dynamics from "player presence not needed" to exhausting. Its quite easy to see everywhere.
*spam filter won't get me this time
Just killing time...
I am also bored. And i started thinking... why even bother gearing up more when i know scaling means i am fully capable of the content, i just can't access it and if i know i can do it anyway then what really is the point? I don't even need to make a build or others to do the content when whatever i role up with can.... Gear = useless, players builds = useless for me doing that is the fun.
The hard truth is... the majority of players are casual. They are not TOMM, Zariel, or IC ready. They are the ones that don't have 1 of everything. They are quitting. We're are losing players from our guilds - and this just dropped.
I've sent a number of tickets in over the last few years. Exactly 2 have been resolved. The rest - bugs - have not been resolved to date.
Death of the game comes when people get constant crashes, feel like they are being robbed, and cannot figure out how a game is suppose to work. How many people quit with Mod 16? I lost 3 players in 15 minutes because they were so made they just said f-it. When we cannot add players to the guilds, when no one is playing, that IS WHEN game is dead.
No one says anyone has to be mad or not. People have every right to be angry right now though. Real world money was spent on items - that got nerfed. The Devs are listing to a few PC dudes that have every toon and all the stuff in the game. The game's crashes are pissing everyone off. The fact that the game is so hard to figure out and doesn't have some kind of guide - is abysmal.
I don't call anyone a shill. It's silly. But, stop apologizing for their mistakes. Games need to be fun. Games have rules, information, and it needs to be consistent. This one does not have those written anywhere to help people out. There's no information for this. So people are angry, justifiably so. It's not your place to tell someone to leave.
* Cryptic content production is very low, so to avoid a situation where you have 2 properly tuned dungeons and 20 trivial ones, scaling must be used. If a dungeon is trivial it will after some time both be boring, AND you cannot give out good rewards for doing it since there needs to be some reasonable effort vs reward ratio.
* For players new to game, it is not very fun to do dungeons when massively overpowered veterans are just one-hitting everything. And new players probably is where the income is, not the old players. So to keep the combat power levels in the dungeons somewhat on the same scale, scaling must be used.
However, contrary to this is the players desire for progress and reward.
One of the major rewards and reasons for building up your character is to be able to do older content easily. Scaling obviously makes progressing a bit pointless when it comes to dungeons. Overland zones are not scaled, so you get the progress feeling there, but the most challenging content is in the dungeons.
I do share a feeling that it is pointless to progress in Neverwinter now. Overland zones you usually can manage even with low gear, and in dungeons good gear has very little effect.
However, the feeling of progress typically is something of value to old-time veterans. Those might not be important for Neverwinter, income-wise. I assume veterans spend way less on game than newcomers since they are mostly done with basic gearing. And you will note that those people participating on the boards to a large extent *are* the veterans. So the sentiment on the board could be skewed, with newcomer voices not being heard.
I been playing Neverwinter for almost 6 years and reached a very high level in mod 16, after that I just play casually and stopped investing in my 8 characters. I have two more characters and I play with them from level 1 to 80, and then I start again. I have millions of AD and I don't even know what to do with them as it is not worth updating the equipment to be leveled up to the level of a novice player.
But speaking of beginners, it is not fair that players cannot finish a low level dungeon and cannot collect AD. It is also not fair that none of them can play the normal game content without continuing to die. I have helped many novice players to finish several maps that are now impossible to play solo.
It gives me the feeling that the developers don't realize that they are shooting themselves in the foot. With all these changes they are not only pushing away advanced players but also new players. For the sake of Neverwinter, a game that I loved but that I can only tolerate now, I hope that all this mess will change quickly.
Sorry for some english mistakes because it is not my native language, i am portuguese.
I played around in Icewind Dale for a while still it is just overpowered for what it is. Taking on a small group of barbarians can be an adventure. So I went to Chult to see how that was. Much harder but it seemed overall manageable, at least until I ran into those little shamans. After killing off their compatriots it would take three or four rounds of every skill I have to kill them...unless of course they healed themselves then add two or three more on. Forget doing an HE encounter powers barely even register that I hit them. For comparison I went to Vallenhas and ran some of the glyph works quests. After getting to the main demon at the glyph works it took one round of powers plus two at will hits to take them out. Something is seriously wrong with that.
Running low level randoms is a joke. I'm wailing away on everything because encounter powers are fairly useless even on the trash. Do we win? Sure. Is it worth spending all the extra time for what you get? NO. I can the skirmish and trial in the same time frame and its actually easier. Epics are challenging but similar to how they were if you get a decent group.
I know I'm not saying anything new here but one update and what four patches later its still pretty much a train wreck. Glad they pushed off add new content. Get this fixed first!
On the other hand my level 40+ decently equipped Vanguard is having a hard time doing content created for his level - so yeah, something is still not right with scaling in the low and mid level areas.
To sum it up, up-scaling is doing a great job in helping new or returning players getting into the latest content, while down scaling is wrecking havoc in pretty much most lower level content.
The game is also soulless with no storyline, and everything is cut and paste from previous work. Many didn't like Avernus, but at least it was new and different and had a plot and story to it. I would rather have better thought out content with little or no bugs then multiple mods every year that have no story, rehashed areas, and so many bugs it would take an army of programmers/devs months to find and fix working 24/7. I've defended this game consistently for 8 years, but I do have to say that it hasn't been this bad in a very long time.
And no, my character is not being "one shotted" there, but since i'm fighting whole groups of enemies most of the time, my character is being melted within seconds, which isn't exactly fun either, and one does wonder, if this wasn't made intentionally to boost Health Stone and Scroll of Life sales...
Sure, i still have stacks of Health Stones from promotions across several characters, but newer players might only have a few Health Potions on hand, which won't last them long, and then they might then be tempted into buying stones or scrolls for real money - or at least that's what i guess some bean counter is hoping for.
Only problem with it, some players might just leave the game for good instead, and those players won't be recommending this game or any other (new) game from this company to their friends either.