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Official - Combat Changes - Racial Bonuses

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  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    > @rubytrue said:
    > What part of Blue Hair is it that you aren't comprehending? It was literally the whole reason why I got the Moon elf.

    Good for you!
    However
    Some of us would like actual functionality for the investment, competitive with other paid races.
  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 173 Arc User
    Having control resistance and similar perks is a bit underwhelming on these races:
    Wood Elf, Sun Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, Moon Elf

    Wood Elf for example could use a similar second bonus to Half-Orc like making Wild Step +5% movement speed for 6 seconds on entering combat (which is also thematically fitting)

    Human has 10% in total, so the other bonus should be worth similar or at least somewhat close to 5%, which I don't think control resistance is.

    Overall I think the changes are good and an improvement in general, but some of the imbalances remain.
    erevel09 said:

    Can the premium races (Gith, Renegade Drow, Moon Elf) have an option similar to the one the Aasimars and Dragonborns have? I mean to choose which +2 ability scores to increase freely? Right now they have fixed ability scores:

    - Gith with +2 Dex and +2 Str/Int;
    - Renegade Drow with +2 Dex and +2 Cha/Wis;
    - Moon Elf with +2 Int and +2 Dex/Cha.

    That would give them at least some degree of improvement.

    Agreed. Or simply add this to all races.
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 640 Cryptic Developer
    The Aasimar is actually giving 2% to each of those stats, I've fixed the tooltip and will update the original post as well.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    Another suggestion, the control resist/stamina gain on moon elf is kind of wasted. Since crit strike/AP gain seems to be an elf thing, why not go for 3% AP gain, 3% crit strike, 3% crit sev or something? Its also a pay to use race and almost nobody uses it.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Im a bit confussed here.
    Tiefling is giving +5% DAMAGE when target is below 50% hp, as allways.

    But we have been told that nothing bypass 90% so this "damage" instead of "power" is meant to work even if you have power capped? Because if not, I see this class feature useless.

    If this is true, it means we can have +DAMAGE items also that can pass the 90% from power too?
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
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  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    Im a bit confussed here.
    Tiefling is giving +5% DAMAGE when target is below 50% hp, as allways.

    But we have been told that nothing bypass 90% so this "damage" instead of "power" is meant to work even if you have power capped? Because if not, I see this class feature useless.

    If this is true, it means we can have +DAMAGE items also that can pass the 90% from power too?

    % damage works exactly how it does on live. It is an additive bonus. Its not really 5%. You need to calculate how much it adds based on how many % damage sources you already have procced or have constantly etc. Yes it is damage that is calculated differently than power, so the power cap has no effect on it. It functions just like 3% ranged damage rings 3% damage shirt etc.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,103 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    Im a bit confussed here.
    Tiefling is giving +5% DAMAGE when target is below 50% hp, as allways.

    But we have been told that nothing bypass 90% so this "damage" instead of "power" is meant to work even if you have power capped? Because if not, I see this class feature useless.

    If this is true, it means we can have +DAMAGE items also that can pass the 90% from power too?

    % damage works exactly how it does on live. It is an additive bonus. Its not really 5%. You need to calculate how much it adds based on how many % damage sources you already have procced or have constantly etc. Yes it is damage that is calculated differently than power, so the power cap has no effect on it. It functions just like 3% ranged damage rings 3% damage shirt etc.
    I suspected that, the wording is important here, so items with %dmg can still be very good even if they have lower IL
    Thank you
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
    Mod20 Combat rework Survivor
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    Im a bit confussed here.
    Tiefling is giving +5% DAMAGE when target is below 50% hp, as allways.

    But we have been told that nothing bypass 90% so this "damage" instead of "power" is meant to work even if you have power capped? Because if not, I see this class feature useless.

    If this is true, it means we can have +DAMAGE items also that can pass the 90% from power too?

    % damage works exactly how it does on live. It is an additive bonus. Its not really 5%. You need to calculate how much it adds based on how many % damage sources you already have procced or have constantly etc. Yes it is damage that is calculated differently than power, so the power cap has no effect on it. It functions just like 3% ranged damage rings 3% damage shirt etc.
    I suspected that, the wording is important here, so items with %dmg can still be very good even if they have lower IL
    Thank you
    Correct. Will depend on how they change equip bonuses of T3 gear, because as of right now ebony shirt 3% undermountain shirt for example currently beats upper pact brands of the blaze bond on preview server. On live upper pact brands just barely beats out the 3% shirt due to % damage relative increases.
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User
    edited December 2020

    With the paid for races, the Moon elf gets no where near the bonuses as a Dragonborn. To have control resistance is a joke. Like you had to think of something quick and that sounded good. Absolutely no reason to spend the money or time on them. It’s highly unbalanced. This is why Dragonborn are everywhere. Look at all the vids of endgame completions and see the majority are Dragonborn. If the other races can’t compete, no ones going to use them.

    Yes and no. Not everyone who buys race packs do it for the bonus stats. About half of my 30 toons are moon elves because I like the way they look. It's purely as cosmetic thing. Same reason I purchased the Gith. I really don't care about their bonuses because I don't play the game to compete with the other payers. I do it for fun and entertainment. I suspect that Cryptic also knows that certain cosmetic things will appeal to a certain % of the population and is not too bothered with trying to equalise them all from a stat perspective.
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • silente07#2597 silente07 Member Posts: 207 Arc User
    > @autumnwitch said:
    > Yes and no. Not everyone who buys race packs do it for the bonus stats. About half of my 30 toons are moon elves because I like the way they look. It's purely as cosmetic thing. Same reason I purchased the Gith. I really don't care about their bonuses because I don't play the game to compete with the other payers. I do it for fun and entertainment. I suspect that Cryptic also knows that certain cosmetic things will appeal to a certain % of the population and is not too bothered with trying to equalise them all from a stat perspective.

    I completely understand. But there are those that would like the benefit from paid content more than just pretty. So yes, if it’s a premium race it should have the benefit as well.
  • vasile1991vasile1991 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 54 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    I think Aasimars need to be reworked.
    Humans have 1% to everything which is more than Aasimars do...

    That's not balanced between a free race vs a paid race.
    Viperion Nexus - cleric healer.
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    Viperion Justifer - paladin tank.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    The Aasimar is actually giving 2% to each of those stats, I've fixed the tooltip and will update the original post as well.

    I still think another offensive stat should be added, such as 2% accuracy (a hard to come by stat on companions).
  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 1,005 Arc User

    > @autumnwitch said:

    > Yes and no. Not everyone who buys race packs do it for the bonus stats. About half of my 30 toons are moon elves because I like the way they look. It's purely as cosmetic thing. Same reason I purchased the Gith. I really don't care about their bonuses because I don't play the game to compete with the other payers. I do it for fun and entertainment. I suspect that Cryptic also knows that certain cosmetic things will appeal to a certain % of the population and is not too bothered with trying to equalise them all from a stat perspective.



    I completely understand. But there are those that would like the benefit from paid content more than just pretty. So yes, if it’s a premium race it should have the benefit as well.

    Well it does have a benefit, the cosmetic value. I'm just saying I don't think its fair to weigh one over the other. You get to see the bonus before you buy it so if you don't like the bonus you can buy/use a race that has what you are looking for.

    That said, as someone with so many moon elves it would be nice if they had more bang for the buck.
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 211 Arc User

    > @autumnwitch said:

    > Yes and no. Not everyone who buys race packs do it for the bonus stats. About half of my 30 toons are moon elves because I like the way they look. It's purely as cosmetic thing. Same reason I purchased the Gith. I really don't care about their bonuses because I don't play the game to compete with the other payers. I do it for fun and entertainment. I suspect that Cryptic also knows that certain cosmetic things will appeal to a certain % of the population and is not too bothered with trying to equalise them all from a stat perspective.



    I completely understand. But there are those that would like the benefit from paid content more than just pretty. So yes, if it’s a premium race it should have the benefit as well.

    Well it does have a benefit, the cosmetic value. I'm just saying I don't think its fair to weigh one over the other. You get to see the bonus before you buy it so if you don't like the bonus you can buy/use a race that has what you are looking for.

    That said, as someone with so many moon elves it would be nice if they had more bang for the buck.
    You don t care about the bonuses because those are your alts that you enter to invoke, do some events, some questing and that is all. When you pay for a race you pay for two reasons. For the appearance and the bonus it provide. In case one of them does`t fit your needs you don`t pay for it. I paid for Aasimar and I did a compromise because I hated so much the way dragonborns looks and I had to find a race that will give me a decent appearance and a slighly decrease in performance. What they did now, is that they focused the bonus to fit more the support classes with I don`t like, because I paid for it with dps role in mind. And If I will have to always make sacrifices in this games just because devs thinks this is the best way to go I will no longer pay for their products. I always hated this aspect in mmo where you have the appearance bound to a specific racial bonus and you ll have to sacritice one or another in order. Why we can`t have a happy overall scenario where we can freely choose our hero starter bonus and racial appearance? They could keep the Racial themed skills having a 2% increase in finding gold, or 2% chance to succes in crafting tasks and so on. I will keep my statement regarding racial diversity around Faerun. No matter how hard they will try to please everyone in this direction, the actual racial system won t be in the right spot and won t bring any joy to the players.
  • darkstarrfoffdarkstarrfoff Member Posts: 155 Arc User

    The Aasimar is actually giving 2% to each of those stats, I've fixed the tooltip and will update the original post as well.

    Yea, so human gets +1 to everything, including Forte while premium races don't get Forte bonuses at all. So that being the case it explains why Aasimar is only 1% over humans then actually has lower power. To me it still seems wrong that Humans have better offensive capabilities compared to a paid race that literally released just weeks ago and was sold as having more outgoing damage. Do I get a free reroll to go back to human now that Aasimar are worse?
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    The Aasimar is actually giving 2% to each of those stats, I've fixed the tooltip and will update the original post as well.

    Yea, so human gets +1 to everything, including Forte while premium races don't get Forte bonuses at all. So that being the case it explains why Aasimar is only 1% over humans then actually has lower power. To me it still seems wrong that Humans have better offensive capabilities compared to a paid race that literally released just weeks ago and was sold as having more outgoing damage. Do I get a free reroll to go back to human now that Aasimar are worse?
    It is quite silly. Giving 2% power/defense does not make up for the fact that humans have 1% to all offensive stats including forte.

    @noworries#8859 Aasimar need more offensive stats. Get rid of the power and swap in 2% forte, 2% critical strike, and 2% combat advantage, then they will beat humans in dps. The numbers I mention are still just 6% stats, which is what dragonborn has (along with hp/ICH), so it wouldn't be overpowered this way.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    Or, keep Aasimar as is and its a nice options for supports. Not everything has to be made to be best for dps.

    It was meant to be a competitor to dragonborn. On live dragonborn is BIS for dps and tanks and probably top 3 for healers. The way the current meta stands on preview, gith is top dps because 5% CA is too strong compared to other bonuses with power being so easy to cap. To have a competitor, some other race needs a bit of CA, and a bit of critical strike for diversity.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 293 Arc User
    Taking away power and adding what you've suggested makes it a one stop shop for all roles. On live, 1% to several things doesn't make it a BiS in any situation and typically favors support roles due to the 1% hp buff it gives to others, leading to dps "not having to sacrifice damage for anything". Giving this race 2% crit, 2% combat adv, 2% forte, 2% outgoing, 2% incoming, 2% def, 2% hp, buffs others for 1% hp is too much unless you're suggesting taking away what makes it useful to support roles.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    > @sagakaiyume#0847 said:
    > Taking away power and adding what you've suggested makes it a one stop shop for all roles. On live, 1% to several things doesn't make it a BiS in any situation and typically favors support roles due to the 1% hp buff it gives to others, leading to dps "not having to sacrifice damage for anything". Giving this race 2% crit, 2% combat adv, 2% forte, 2% outgoing, 2% incoming, 2% def, 2% hp, buffs others for 1% hp is too much unless you're suggesting taking away what makes it useful to support roles.

    Metallic dragonborn has 3% power, 3% crit, 3% hp and 3% ICH lol. That is 12% stats.

    Aasimar currently has 2% power/def/ich/ogh/hp. That is 10% stats.

    What I'm saying is ditch the power and give it 2% crit, 2% CA, 2% forte. That is 14% stats. Its not that much more than metallic dragonborn is currently getting.
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 293 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    1. You didn't include the 2% hp it gives to others, that's upwards of 18% more stats given out.

    2. Why crit and combat adv? Should be then Crit and power, ALL roles can use that regardless if they cap from forte its stats all roles use, healers don't use CA, sounds like ulterior motives picking Crit and CA.

    3. You get to pick two ability scores to add two to. That's one more ability score point than humans get.

  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    > @sagakaiyume#0847 said:
    > 1. You didn't include the 2% hp it gives to others, that's upwards of 18% more stats given out.
    >
    > 2. Why crit and combat adv? Should be then Crit and power, ALL roles can use that regardless if they cap from forte its stats all roles use, healers don't use CA, sounds like ulterior motives picking Crit and CA.
    >
    > 3. You get to pick two ability scores to add two to. That's one more ability score point than humans get.

    I could live with 2% forte and 2% crit. Forte would be useful for dps/healer and tanks and crit good for dps and healers. Power is just way too easy to cap. Even with the 2 attributes given, human currently beats them on dps.

    If a melee dps goes human they can go +3 STR, and their 1% to all offensive stats (including forte) would beat a melee dps aasimar that would probably go +2 STR/CHA.
    The 2 CHA would give 1% forte, which would cancel with the humans. So aasimar melee dps is at a 1 STR, 1% crit, 1% accuracy, 1% CA disadvantage. The power on aasimar is irrelevant, as both are way overcapped on power. That shouldn't be the case.
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    Don't know about others, but im switching my Ranger from Gith to Drow. I have Dragonborn, Metallic, and Aasimar.. just don't want to use them.
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 267 Arc User
    I don't like the changes to racial bonus. As they are now, they are as impactful as slotting a companion, and since a race change is behind a paywall this shouldn't ocurr. Plus, we are still sticking to choosing "X" race just because of the bonus, even though we don't like the appearance of it. Any new player would choose the race by the looks because they don't know what stats they need, and then they will come up that they have to pay to switch race. Races should have less impact on stats
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User

    I don't like the changes to racial bonus. As they are now, they are as impactful as slotting a companion, and since a race change is behind a paywall this shouldn't ocurr. Plus, we are still sticking to choosing "X" race just because of the bonus, even though we don't like the appearance of it. Any new player would choose the race by the looks because they don't know what stats they need, and then they will come up that they have to pay to switch race. Races should have less impact on stats

    I do think some are way too strong. Gith 5% CA.. hard to beat since its worth more than 5% critical strike or 5% critical severity for example.
  • jman3l#5579 jman3l Member Posts: 300 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 please consider buffing races that give critical strike, critical severity, deflect and deflect severity, as those stats are not worth as much as CA or defense for example.

    Example 5% CA on gith is more damage than 5% critical strike on woodelf. I did some calculations and thought of the following:

    Wood elf change 5% critical strike to 6.5% critical strike
    Half orc change 5% critical severity to 6.5% critical severity
    Halfelf change 3% crit / 3% deflect to 4% crit severity/ 4% deflect
    Halfling change 5% deflect to 6.5%

    I might have missed some.
    Thanks,
    Neko
  • alquimistgg#0914 alquimistgg Member Posts: 120 Arc User

    I don't like the changes to racial bonus. As they are now, they are as impactful as slotting a companion, and since a race change is behind a paywall this shouldn't ocurr. Plus, we are still sticking to choosing "X" race just because of the bonus, even though we don't like the appearance of it. Any new player would choose the race by the looks because they don't know what stats they need, and then they will come up that they have to pay to switch race. Races should have less impact on stats

    I always thought that, although I understand that some statistics have a relationship to characterize the race, sometimes linking to the D&D itself, I think all of this is a job done in the wrong way. Races should only be appearances, this opens a window to create new races with more affordable prices for more players, better balancing the game's monetization and reducing neverwinter's pay to win aspects. With that said, I think racial bonuses could still exist, but not based on the "visual" race you're playing, but implemented in another way. an example for this would be a choice of mentoring race, which would be the choice of a race to be its "master", and I say more, this could be added in the game as one more progression. example: if i choose to play human as a visual race, with the warlock class, and with a tiefling mentoring race, I would have the current tiefling race bonuses for my character, which could be released during leveling. based on my choice I would have a small line quest that would be given to me by my mentor, which in this case would be a Warlock Tiefling NPC, who would give me specific quests during my leveling that served as an apprenticeship, releasing these racial tiefling, as my mentor I would be teaching these skills to me through these quests. This way, racial bonuses could be better explored and make part of your build more connected to the game, they could even be much more impactful than they are today
    and divided into several parts to be unlocked by level, example: Level 20 your mentor NPC releases the first quest to release the first racial ability, then level 20, then 60 and so on. It might be possible to release more mentoring breeds in the end game, with a token like the Retraining Token changing the mentor. With that you choose the racial you want to use based on your build, you would go back to the specific NPC to start your training on that racial line, and I mean more, it could be further explored. imagine a senario where mentor hunting teaches you 4 different racial effects with a quest every 20 levels, from tier 1 to tier 4, releasing the fourth racial (stronger Tier 4 power) at level 80, we could have a racial line added in our page of power so that we can choose which racials we want to use, being possible to combine different racials based on racials that we have already learned to attract from the mentoring races. With that I could use a racial T1 bonus from Tiefling in slot T1, a racial T2 from dragonborn in slot T2, a racial T3 from human in slot 3 and a racial T4 from Tiefling in slot T4, which by the way some of these racials like the T4 could even be skills like encounter, At-will and even Dailys. I know that I'm already traveling in the possibilities and that a lot of it can make zero sense for the game, but what I'm trying to bring here is that using a little creativity and common sense, you can make a good system, with the possibility of balanced monetization more focused on visual aspects, and an impacting progression system for gameplay, bringing even some reasons for revisiting previous forests to attract race mentoring quests.
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