I've played a lot of MMOs, always as healer before NW, now as a tank. Yes, in most content except the latest content dps can run ahead like its no big deal. In many games there is also kiting available in the game which makes it even more accessible for them to do so. In a lot of games I've built myself as a healer with high hp/def and threat modifiers to hold aggro so we didn't need an actual tank, as tanks in many games are scarce.
I've played a lot of MMOs, always as healer before NW, now as a tank. Yes, in most content except the latest content dps can run ahead like its no big deal. In many games there is also kiting available in the game which makes it even more accessible for them to do so. In a lot of games I've built myself as a healer with high hp/def and threat modifiers to hold aggro so we didn't need an actual tank, as tanks in many games are scarce.
It's not just for suboptimal situations that a Healer or Tank needs Damage/Survivability.
If someone is going to care enough about those roles to main one, they need to be able to solo in those roles without wanting to throw themselves off a cliff.
I've played more than a few games which do a decent job of this. People asking for Neverwinter to remove damage from tanks and healers (even more than the damage already done) are literally begging for the games own decay.
Again, NO ONE IS ASKING FOR TANKS AND HEALERS TO DO EVEN CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE AS DPS. STOP PRETENDING THATS THE ARGUMENT, you trolls know who you are.
All we educated gamers want, is for the tank and healer role to be at all attractive to play, for this some decent ratio of damage to the dps roles is a REQUIREMENT. not an option.
...snip Pre mod 16 cleric was actually fun playing as a healer/support. why? becuase it could do damage and heal with the same skills, it was actually funs. snip...
Sorry for the snips but it is relevant to my point.
On the other side of the coin I like to play DPS that can sustain themselves though a high defense/deflect and a high incoming heal as I find this to be fun. Mind you I never do any of the higher end content as my DPS would be considered "sub-par" but I like to survive and not use heath stones perpetually. My point being that diversity should be allowed and even admired in this game. Anyone can use a prebuilt mega DEEPS build, but just like in the actual D&D game I prefer having the ability to diversify as the same old same old is just that, OLD!
Anyone who actually plays tank beyond futzing around at low level, Anyone who ever plays healer, would never support tanks and healers who have less than 30-40% the damage of dps.
The only way for someone to promote the idea of lame meat shield "tanks" and healbot "healers" is for them to never play said roles in a serious capacity, be below 20 IQ, or both.
No one is asking for tanks and healers to do the same damage. 40-50% is plenty. but the fact is it is part of their job and always has been and always will be in a game designed decently.
This is a false dilemma. I don't think dealing damage should be part of the healer's (or tank's) job, but I don't think "healbots" are good either. IMO the adequate secondary responsibilities for healers would be buffing damage by reducing enemies defense. And not something like "use this skill and you can AFK X seconds", but something involving multiple stacks that would require optimal play to keep up 100% of the time.
Still on this topic, I think healers and tanks would benefit greatly if they had resource and cooldown skills "modes" similar to Cleric pre-M16, and appropriate mechanics to benefit from correct use of those.
You mean adding one more thing to take care of except the Godly divinity bar and sliding around while taking care of your divinity bar?
I would like my sliding cleric to be left alone, thank you very much i do not need to have to look at more cool downs on my screen. And having to look at an extra divinity bar going down.
Buffing is dead for a few mods now. It used to be a part of this game. ( before divinity bar, when bastion was actually useful, before you had to slot running speed )
Astral sheild was actually used in fights and you could spend equal portions of time between buffing and healing so it does not get boring and do some pokes to bosses as well , for the flavor.
Now it is all about that divinity bar. It is your most important part of the screen when playing a healer. That freaking little divinity bar that tells you how many Qs of the healing word you have left.
You look at it and you pray to gods you can do one more intercession to heal the tank, if your divinity bar is empty, well then , you did something wrong mister and tank will die. Ha. Tough luck. Upsy...Bad cleric, kick it.
And then you run around like a chicken, but not the abysal one. It works great. I am very proud of my sliding skills. Practice makes perfect.
Bastion takes too much divinity so it is a no no. Divine glow is a must if you have divinity problems. So then you are left with healing word and intercession and sooth as at will.
On the other side, Dmg dealing path is great. I can do zones by myself. I can do Avernus by myself and not have to bother anyone to help me do simple grind. So i am thankful we have this path. All love to devs for that. Perfect balance build is awesome as well.
I top out DPS either as tank and heal ( Paladin ) in 50% of all my games - Now that the paradigm shift from that I am not anymore able to do that while playing with noobs - I simply quit the game. I played 1 hour this week. Like gradii said. Who want to play this? There are plenty in your opinion? Go and play with them. But not with me. If you think it is okay, that a top tank can only deal like 20% of top dps damage - do you think it is okay vice versa a top dps can only get hit for 20% in receiving damage? I have heavy doubts. As you said here. Tank is only needed for Zariel and Halaster. If you really change the game, that groups fail in all content without a tank. Good night. Most of the random tanks are basically noobs.
Who ever says barbarian would switch to fighter I am sorry barbarian is not in that bad spot , yes fighter will be better next mod but I love my barbarian more
So I got question to you all when you are right now on live server fighting a boss do you use combat advantage or not on bosses?
So it is ok to deal damage multiplier to mobs right now on live no one puts any importance to this stat and puts all their stats in power and more power baby and tons of hp
Seriously awareness already exists in mod 19 right however you are not feeling it or respecting it because it is only active with mobs when they surround you and have advantage over you in combat but guess what you don't feel it because mobs are killed so fast because we got power reaching 300k and health points above 1 million
We as players need to respect mechanics and this is coming from a barbarian saying this
Classes that have control need to stack control bonus and recharge speed simple as that it was always like that in the beginning in open beta a cw would put arcane singularity to grab mobs and party is killing them and a tank needs to use his aoe threat increase encounter like templar wrath / primal fury to grab aggro and dps need to position himself away from mobs and red apes and tank needs to maintain the aggro
Each class has a role to fit that you cannot just say I don't want to play it
beside that new system is still alpha stage not close so much stuff is broken , yesterday they put Patch saying companions were fixed when it was dealing over 1 million damage
If cryptic tells you bosses dont have combat advantage you wouldn't be complaining and you will stack other stats and ignore a preexisting stat that exists on live server and part of game
This is a false dilemma. I don't think dealing damage should be part of the healer's (or tank's) job, but I don't think "healbots" are good either. IMO the adequate secondary responsibilities for healers would be buffing damage by reducing enemies defense. And not something like "use this skill and you can AFK X seconds", but something involving multiple stacks that would require optimal play to keep up 100% of the time.
Still on this topic, I think healers and tanks would benefit greatly if they had resource and cooldown skills "modes" similar to Cleric pre-M16, and appropriate mechanics to benefit from correct use of those.
1. And you playing DPS? 2. Resources to do what? Limitations are not fun. Limitations are limitations. 3. It is an action based RPG.
At the moment DPS do DPS, Heal do Heal, Tank playing mechanics. You know if we would have good balance it is not only in one direction.
If tank is only allowed to deal 20% of damage, DPS should only have 20% of hitpoints. No? It is basically the same. But at the moment, while tank is playing mechanics, the hit chain (tankbuster) hit so hard, that 95% of all ingame tanks die at i.e. at Halaster. Should he deal so much damage, that without tank, he would single target in a chain 5 DPS to dead in 3 seconds? If you cancel DPS on tank, I would guess your answer is yes.
This is not QQ of tanks, this is QQ of bad DPS. M19 I am able to top out noobs x10 with my tank. I was able top out x5 noobs with my healer. And top HDPS was able to top me out x3. At the moment I have to admit, I rarely saw a better balanced game. I see no problem. Ofcourse I have to be copared with that top HDPS guy that top me out x3. Why I have to deal less dmg than any playing grandma playing her first MMO. The whole discussion is a disgrace. And it is more of a disgrace, that it is discussed on an action based RPG. An action based RPG that started with multiple opportunities.
I promise you. The game will suffer. I agree with you - a tank is not HDPS, like it is now. But a tank should not be boring. Realize someone need to play it in rock, paper, scissors. Do you guys even know how bad it is designed to feel any action with these PING and Lags?
You DPS guys hit 1 2 3, e, q. Fine. I receive every third hit that I was sure I have blocked, but due lag.
Sorry I have to say this but I am so sick of hearing this argument. Go and check the steam charts for Neverwinter. The playerbase on steam is basically the same since 5 years. People are using this argument but never provide any proof. It is just the people who leave are the loudest to tell us.
Just because someone logs in to get a key and do invocation, doesn't mean that they are playing the game.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Sorry I have to say this but I am so sick of hearing this argument. Go and check the steam charts for Neverwinter. The playerbase on steam is basically the same since 5 years. People are using this argument but never provide any proof. It is just the people who leave are the loudest to tell us.
Just because someone logs in to get a key and do invocation, doesn't mean that they are playing the game.
This. And I know what I see. Today I signed in for RTQ as tank and had to wait 10 minutes ( the whole time tank = bonus) I have never seen this happen for over 1 year. The scenario I posted in another thread seems to happen. Lower Player, lower Player, lower Player. The longer you have wait for RTQ, the more it is possible someone logout and do not playing RTQ. It is a spiral.
Comments
If someone is going to care enough about those roles to main one, they need to be able to solo in those roles without wanting to throw themselves off a cliff.
I've played more than a few games which do a decent job of this. People asking for Neverwinter to remove damage from tanks and healers (even more than the damage already done) are literally begging for the games own decay.
Again, NO ONE IS ASKING FOR TANKS AND HEALERS TO DO EVEN CLOSE TO THE AMOUNT OF DAMAGE AS DPS. STOP PRETENDING THATS THE ARGUMENT, you trolls know who you are.
All we educated gamers want, is for the tank and healer role to be at all attractive to play, for this some decent ratio of damage to the dps roles is a REQUIREMENT. not an option.
On the other side of the coin I like to play DPS that can sustain themselves though a high defense/deflect and a high incoming heal as I find this to be fun. Mind you I never do any of the higher end content as my DPS would be considered "sub-par" but I like to survive and not use heath stones perpetually. My point being that diversity should be allowed and even admired in this game. Anyone can use a prebuilt mega DEEPS build, but just like in the actual D&D game I prefer having the ability to diversify as the same old same old is just that, OLD!
2nd Edition Gully Dwarf FTW!!
I would like my sliding cleric to be left alone, thank you very much i do not need to have to look at more cool downs on my screen. And having to look at an extra divinity bar going down.
Buffing is dead for a few mods now.
It used to be a part of this game. ( before divinity bar, when bastion was actually useful, before you had to slot running speed )
Astral sheild was actually used in fights and you could spend equal portions of time between buffing and healing so it does not get boring and do some pokes to bosses as well , for the flavor.
Now it is all about that divinity bar. It is your most important part of the screen when playing a healer.
That freaking little divinity bar that tells you how many Qs of the healing word you have left.
You look at it and you pray to gods you can do one more intercession to heal the tank, if your divinity bar is empty, well then , you did something wrong mister and tank will die. Ha. Tough luck. Upsy...Bad cleric, kick it.
And then you run around like a chicken, but not the abysal one. It works great. I am very proud of my sliding skills.
Practice makes perfect.
Bastion takes too much divinity so it is a no no. Divine glow is a must if you have divinity problems.
So then you are left with healing word and intercession and sooth as at will.
On the other side, Dmg dealing path is great. I can do zones by myself. I can do Avernus by myself and not have to bother anyone to help me do simple grind. So i am thankful we have this path. All love to devs for that.
Perfect balance build is awesome as well.
If you think it is okay, that a top tank can only deal like 20% of top dps damage - do you think it is okay vice versa a top dps can only get hit for 20% in receiving damage? I have heavy doubts.
As you said here. Tank is only needed for Zariel and Halaster. If you really change the game, that groups fail in all content without a tank. Good night. Most of the random tanks are basically noobs.
So I got question to you all when you are right now on live server fighting a boss do you use combat advantage or not on bosses?
So it is ok to deal damage multiplier to mobs right now on live no one puts any importance to this stat and puts all their stats in power and more power baby and tons of hp
Seriously awareness already exists in mod 19 right however you are not feeling it or respecting it because it is only active with mobs when they surround you and have advantage over you in combat but guess what you don't feel it because mobs are killed so fast because we got power reaching 300k and health points above 1 million
We as players need to respect mechanics and this is coming from a barbarian saying this
Classes that have control need to stack control bonus and recharge speed simple as that it was always like that in the beginning in open beta a cw would put arcane singularity to grab mobs and party is killing them and a tank needs to use his aoe threat increase encounter like templar wrath / primal fury to grab aggro and dps need to position himself away from mobs and red apes and tank needs to maintain the aggro
Each class has a role to fit that you cannot just say I don't want to play it
beside that new system is still alpha stage not close so much stuff is broken , yesterday they put Patch saying companions were fixed when it was dealing over 1 million damage
If cryptic tells you bosses dont have combat advantage you wouldn't be complaining and you will stack other stats and ignore a preexisting stat that exists on live server and part of game
2. Resources to do what? Limitations are not fun. Limitations are limitations.
3. It is an action based RPG.
At the moment DPS do DPS, Heal do Heal, Tank playing mechanics.
You know if we would have good balance it is not only in one direction.
If tank is only allowed to deal 20% of damage, DPS should only have 20% of hitpoints. No? It is basically the same.
But at the moment, while tank is playing mechanics, the hit chain (tankbuster) hit so hard, that 95% of all ingame tanks die at i.e. at Halaster. Should he deal so much damage, that without tank, he would single target in a chain 5 DPS to dead in 3 seconds? If you cancel DPS on tank, I would guess your answer is yes.
This is not QQ of tanks, this is QQ of bad DPS. M19 I am able to top out noobs x10 with my tank. I was able top out x5 noobs with my healer. And top HDPS was able to top me out x3. At the moment I have to admit, I rarely saw a better balanced game. I see no problem. Ofcourse I have to be copared with that top HDPS guy that top me out x3. Why I have to deal less dmg than any playing grandma playing her first MMO. The whole discussion is a disgrace. And it is more of a disgrace, that it is discussed on an action based RPG. An action based RPG that started with multiple opportunities.
I promise you. The game will suffer.
I agree with you - a tank is not HDPS, like it is now. But a tank should not be boring. Realize someone need to play it in rock, paper, scissors. Do you guys even know how bad it is designed to feel any action with these PING and Lags?
You DPS guys hit 1 2 3, e, q. Fine. I receive every third hit that I was sure I have blocked, but due lag.
The scenario I posted in another thread seems to happen. Lower Player, lower Player, lower Player. The longer you have wait for RTQ, the more it is possible someone logout and do not playing RTQ. It is a spiral.