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forcing players to take awareness because its useless is a horrible horrible idea

gor1llaf1stgor1llaf1st Member Posts: 98 Arc User
really horrible idea. just so people are aware, developer said on last stream that they want to make combat advantage for bosses active all the time just to force players to fill the awareness stat.... how about you put more bosses with mobs in newer stuff. or maybe a swarm boss?
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  • xvimn134xvimn134 Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    ye if they do that then CA->AWARENESS will just become another set power->defense stats, doesnt make sense
  • nooneatzanooneatza Member Posts: 171 Arc User
    And every single barb/paladin tank main will switch over to fighter because fighter doesn't need to build any awareness, "dig in" negates combat advantage damage ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,775 Arc User
    Well, with Armor Penetration being wiped from the game, doesn't that free up enough "resources" to be diverted into Awarness? Not saying that this boss change is going to be a good change, just wondering how to battle it the best way possible...

    Anyway, when the Devs have their sight set on something, all one can do is find a way to adapt to it.
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
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  • catson#7772 catson Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    regenerde said:

    Well, with Armor Penetration being wiped from the game, doesn't that free up enough "resources" to be diverted into Awarness?


    penetration is now crit severity, which is quite important to dps
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 531 Arc User
    nooneatza said:

    And every single barb/paladin tank main will switch over to fighter because fighter doesn't need to build any awareness, "dig in" negates combat advantage damage ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    This is a very good point. I asked @noworries#8859 in the class powers thread if there is going to be a thread for balance issues, but no reply.

    As it is now, Fighter tanks will be far superior to the two alternatives. Both Barbarian and Paladin needs major power reworks to come close to what a M20 Fighter can do. Im just hoping that the fix will be to the Paladin and Barbarian, not a nerf to the Fighter. All tanks should have similar (not identical) ways to overcome all content.
  • regenerderegenerde Member Posts: 2,775 Arc User

    regenerde said:

    Well, with Armor Penetration being wiped from the game, doesn't that free up enough "resources" to be diverted into Awarness?

    penetration is now crit severity, which is quite important to dps
    Well, is there anything good coming from this rework, or is it just renaming important stats while taking away a good portion of them through the new companion bolster system, so that we have to work (or pay...) hard to get them back again?
    I do believe in killing the messenger...
    Want to know why?
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  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    Stating fighter is in a better position on preview than barbarians who have a 10% hp feat and an encounter that boosts their hp, is completely false. Our iron warrior is now a wasted encounter without a real alternative there, bladed rampart is only able to be used on average once every 55 seconds or so and once again, the damage reduction part is useless. On the other hand, pally does have a big disadvantage over the other two tanks now.

    Bosses having CA over us means on average an extra 50% damage they do if the stat is completely neglected, which it will be with how powerful def + deflect is, even Crit avoid isn't as important as capping out our deflect + severity.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 531 Arc User

    Stating fighter is in a better position on preview than barbarians who have a 10% hp feat and an encounter that boosts their hp, is completely false. Our iron warrior is now a wasted encounter without a real alternative there, bladed rampart is only able to be used on average once every 55 seconds or so and once again, the damage reduction part is useless. On the other hand, pally does have a big disadvantage over the other two tanks now.

    Bosses having CA over us means on average an extra 50% damage they do if the stat is completely neglected, which it will be with how powerful def + deflect is, even Crit avoid isn't as important as capping out our deflect + severity.

    Fighter is the only tank that has 90% awareness without investing 1 single stat point or % in the stat (Dig In). Fighter has +10% crit chance when stamina is full. Fighter has +10% crit avoidance on block.

    Barb has CA immunity from 1 daily (Primal Instinct), +10% deflect when moving (Bravery) and +10% deflect from feated ragemeter (Raging Bladeturn).

    Paladin has +10% crit aboid when full divinity, +2% crit or deflect to self and party (Auras)

    How does -10% power (-10% threat generation) / +10% HP makes up for all those missing stats ?

  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1258806/official-combat-changes-master-trials

    Read Hastati's analysis, see how def + deflect/deflect severity is performing, nothing else will matter to tanks.
  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 531 Arc User
    > @sagakaiyume#0847 said:
    > https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1258806/official-combat-changes-master-trials
    >
    > Read Hastati's analysis, see how def + deflect/deflect severity is performing, nothing else will matter to tanks.

    The fact that current preview build is very far from final and the only confirmed change we are getting to boss fights is that bosses will have constant Combat Advantage will not affect those test results?
  • xenocide#6577 xenocide Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    They are clearly trying to push players away from glass cannon builds.
    Unfortunately this really only makes the healing job harder as dps will still run around with -25% inc healing lol
  • sagakaiyume#0847 sagakaiyume Member Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Barbarian:
    Enduring shout: Increases max hp by 20% for 15 seconds, 28 second cooldown: Usable whenever it is needed for big hits, can be used for each halaster's annihilation blast if timed properly
    Mighty Vitality: 10% increase to maximum hit points, 100% uptime.
    Battle high: Increase your max hit points by 35% lasts 10 seconds, likely same case as Fighter building Daily, roughly 55 seconds.
    Rage: When you go into rage, gain 10% deflect severity

    Fighter:
    Iron warrior was killed off with changes, def is our first capped stat. no alternative to increase maximum survivability.
    Bladed Rampart, mostly will be used during mobs now, as the damage reduction is useless.
    Second wind: Daily like primal instinct, except it only gives 20% max hp.
    Dig-in, best comparable to rage + enduring shout, as both those can be used when needed, no Fighter tank is going to be in dig-in 50% of the time or more, only for large hits or to get a quick retaliation off.

    The %s are before Con multiplier, on live all hp buff encounters and dailies are getting tank + con multiplier, not sure on preview, but if not it still changes nothing that on top-end barbs receive up to 65% extra hp with 10% deflect, vs 20% top end fighter hp with Capped CA when needed.

    These even out in every regard.

    On other hand, pally only has their daily, Heroism, which is 20% max hp and their crit avoid on high-end being 10% crit avoid.

    Either all have to be re-worked (to make both fighter and pally's damage reduction encounters to have value while changing barb) or only pally has to be improved to be in line with the other two tanks.

    Small Edit: On high-end, as you mentioned, if you wanted to use primal instinct instead it still puts barbs at 30% hp buff and CA immunity, while still having rage for deflect severity.
  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    wilbur626 said:

    > @sagakaiyume#0847 said:

    > https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1258806/official-combat-changes-master-trials

    >

    > Read Hastati's analysis, see how def + deflect/deflect severity is performing, nothing else will matter to tanks.



    The fact that current preview build is very far from final and the only confirmed change we are getting to boss fights is that bosses will have constant Combat Advantage will not affect those test results?

    Yes, you are right. Everything is still in a very early development state and so is the balancing. If the devs activate the CA on bosses, the whole situation will change drastically. The only thing we can do is to provide feedback as early as possible and hope that it helps the devs in any way to find a better balancing.

    Ofc it could be that we are really "forced" to make an Awarness build for trials but DPS do the same basically. One build for trash adds, one build for single target dps. Tanks would probably have some kind of dungeon build and one build for trials with Awarness.

    On the other hand I don't think DPS / Heals will need to stack Awarness. During the bossfight only the tank should be hit directly by the boss so hopefully this change won't effect the DPS.

    They are clearly trying to push players away from glass cannon builds.

    I think devs rather want to push DPS into the direction of a glass canon build. DPS have to focus completely on offensive stats so groups can pass the DPS checks. This also means the tank has to take all the damage, otherwise the DPS die. I can imagine they want to achieve more seperation between the roles with this.

    Currently, on live, a DPS can also do the job of a tank in dungeons because they can cap almost all of the defense stats too. This is something that shouldn't be possible on preview because DPS have to focus on offensive stats.
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  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    groups can pass the DPS checks. This also means the tank has to take all the damage, otherwise the DPS die. I can imagine they want to achieve more seperation between the roles with this.


    And this is what is killing the game and making more and more people leave.

    Pre mod 16 cleric was actually fun playing as a healer/support. why? becuase it could do damage and heal with the same skills, it was actually fun.

    Like it or not damage is the most basic and essential part of any MMO, ANY. without it nothing gets done.

    DPS is EVERYBODY'S JOB. to argue that tanks and healers should not be doing damage is to say "LOOK AT ME I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT GAMES!"

    No, tanks and healers should not do even close to the amount of dps that dps do, but about 40% to half is right and proper.

    Otherwise who would even play those roles? you end up with a huge shortage of those roles. Look at ESO where tanks hit like wet noodles, theres like 1 tank player out of 1000 dps.

  • hastati96hastati96 Member Posts: 437 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    gradii said:

    groups can pass the DPS checks. This also means the tank has to take all the damage, otherwise the DPS die. I can imagine they want to achieve more seperation between the roles with this.

    Pre mod 16 cleric was actually fun playing as a healer/support. why? becuase it could do damage and heal with the same skills, it was actually fun.

    Like it or not damage is the most basic and essential part of any MMO, ANY. without it nothing gets done.

    DPS is EVERYBODY'S JOB. to argue that tanks and healers should not be doing damage is to say "LOOK AT ME I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT GAMES!"

    No, tanks and healers should not do even close to the amount of dps that dps do, but about 40% to half is right and proper.

    Otherwise who would even play those roles? you end up with a huge shortage of those roles. Look at ESO where tanks hit like wet noodles, theres like 1 tank player out of 1000 dps.
    No. That sounds like a totally broken system. The issue is if 1 role can fullfill more than 1 job, the other role becomes useless. Not everything is about damage. Playing a DPS is about damage, a tank is about tanking and a healer heals. It is such simple. A tank should focus on defense stats and HP, not on power and combat advantage.
    gradii said:


    And this is what is killing the game and making more and more people leave.

    Sorry I have to say this but I am so sick of hearing this argument. Go and check the steam charts for Neverwinter. The playerbase on steam is basically the same since 5 years. People are using this argument but never provide any proof. It is just the people who leave are the loudest to tell us.
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  • samerikersameriker Member Posts: 156 Arc User
    Force me, I dare you!

    How can anyone force you to take on any stat in your build? My kid brother played another mmo, he built a toon without weapons. He then used the npcs hero sidekicks to fight for him... the entire game. His toon did nothing but give commands. He still does weird compost* like that to this day.

    I know, you are going to tell me, if I don't take on "awareness", I will have a compost* build. So? I build the way I want, I play the way I want. They can lure you into those dungeons for AD, but not me. I played them enough to know they hold no attraction for me. Force you to team up with strangers and bots? No they entice you with that 40 cents you are going to make at the end. I can make 40 cents at work just taking a compost* break!

    I plan to do some play testing on preview now. My idea here is to have some fun, you all sound like you are standing around the water cooler at work crabbing about the boss and what a lousy weekend you had... today isn't even Monday yet!

    *The word "compost" in the text above is used in place of another word not suitable for sensitive people.
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  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    The point the OP is making is that regardless of the fact people can play how they want no matter how the game is "balanced" there needs to be enough viable choices for endgame content as well.

    Right now we have a few "accepted" builds the endgame community uses, anyone not running these specific builds and gear is SOL, theres a huge amount of elitism for content like TOMM.. which isn't even hard on an MMO scale. if NW was balanced half as well as other games it'd be done in random groups a lot.

  • unknowndramaunknowndrama Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 83 Arc User
    I hate bosses whit no mobs on them i really hate them to death..i like old style dungeons like dread vault castle never spellplague..not the new one ..this has damn boring bosses ..i like where every class has theyr role...tanks to tank and kite mobs away from bosses and team wizards to controll mobs healers to heal dps to dps..but a dungeon or trial whit no mobs is boring..thats why i dont play games like tera...FFIV blade and soul..NO ZERG of mobs NO FUN!!!!
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User

    I hate bosses whit no mobs on them i really hate them to death..i like old style dungeons like dread vault castle never spellplague..not the new one ..this has damn boring bosses ..i like where every class has theyr role...tanks to tank and kite mobs away from bosses and team wizards to controll mobs healers to heal dps to dps..but a dungeon or trial whit no mobs is boring..thats why i dont play games like tera...FFIV blade and soul..NO ZERG of mobs NO FUN!!!!

    Well you're in a pathetically tiny minority. the boss is the main event, mobs are nothing but an annoyance most of the time.

    The only reason to have mobs is in case the boss has to be immune to crowd control, in that case, having a lot of mobs makes CC worth it.

  • melechestmelechest Member Posts: 98 Arc User
    To all those who say that tanks dont need damage.
    As the current system stands, unless a tank can do significant amounts of damage, there is no way he can hold aggro on bosses. There is the encounter that every tank has which places you on top of the threat list, but thats all that it does. Any tank knows that if you cant deal significant amount of damage and keep attacking, you will never be able to do anything more than hold aggro for 1 second after you use that encounter.
    I wouldnt mind tanks doing low damage in dungeons and stuff. But there are 2 things to consider before that. First give tanks the ability to generate threat or hold aggro without them being based solely on damage.
    Second, do something about Paladins. We only have tank and healer paths. If i cant do damage on either of those, i will need dps to help me do the simplest of quest or take ages to clear even the weakest mobs.
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 235 Arc User
    gradii said:


    Anyone who actually plays tank beyond futzing around at low level, Anyone who ever plays healer, would never support tanks and healers who have less than 30-40% the damage of dps.

    The only way for someone to promote the idea of lame meat shield "tanks" and healbot "healers" is for them to never play said roles in a serious capacity, be below 20 IQ, or both.

    No one is asking for tanks and healers to do the same damage. 40-50% is plenty. but the fact is it is part of their job and always has been and always will be in a game designed decently.

    This is a false dilemma. I don't think dealing damage should be part of the healer's (or tank's) job, but I don't think "healbots" are good either. IMO the adequate secondary responsibilities for healers would be buffing damage by reducing enemies defense. And not something like "use this skill and you can AFK X seconds", but something involving multiple stacks that would require optimal play to keep up 100% of the time.

    Still on this topic, I think healers and tanks would benefit greatly if they had resource and cooldown skills "modes" similar to Cleric pre-M16, and appropriate mechanics to benefit from correct use of those.
  • gradiigradii Member Posts: 280 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    The removal of adds from boss fights has only increased the problem of class balance. Now every DPS is rated only on single target damage. The five classes at launch each had a distinct specialty. Now we have more classes but less distinction between them. The old dungeons went to far but the current approach is a gross overcorrection.


    I don't think adds on bosses are bad. I think that they only belong on SOME bosses. maybe half at most. Some bosses are better without adds, and it allows different mechanics to shine.

    And FYI a tank who cant deal at least 40% of dps damage is a tank nobody will be playing. Especially Paladin which doesn't even get a dps spec if they want to solo.

    If you can think rationally at all, you wont advocate for tanks to be doing no damage. Becuase that is literally the opposite of reason.

    There is opinion, where anyones opinion is valid, and there is fact.

    Tanks needing a certain percentage of dps damage is a FACT of game design. how much really depends on the game but the minimum is the point at which soloing as a tank with the same gear you use for group content is not overly tedious.

    This much is literally a baseline, and denying it is just screaming "I don't deserve a fun game so I advocate for it to be made worse and worse"

  • madrigal#2900 madrigal Member Posts: 93 Arc User
    edited December 2020
    Warlocks perspective on Awareness
    well sometimes we do solo..its not all dungeons and boss fights, we have at wills that are melee and ranged, as well as encounters for self and target that work in melee.
    when they look at assigning these stats, they have to think about us as a generic build, people play warlock ranged and melee.
    assigning stats because someone doesnt like it or only plays ranged would nerf the people that prefer to play up close and personal.
    if your preference is ranged, fair enough in the event you do get attacked by adds you can shadow slip away, if youre preference is melee, you appreciate the dmg mitigation
  • unknowndramaunknowndrama Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 83 Arc User
    gradii said:

    I hate bosses whit no mobs on them i really hate them to death..i like old style dungeons like dread vault castle never spellplague..not the new one ..this has damn boring bosses ..i like where every class has theyr role...tanks to tank and kite mobs away from bosses and team wizards to controll mobs healers to heal dps to dps..but a dungeon or trial whit no mobs is boring..thats why i dont play games like tera...FFIV blade and soul..NO ZERG of mobs NO FUN!!!!

    Well you're in a pathetically tiny minority. the boss is the main event, mobs are nothing but an annoyance most of the time.

    The only reason to have mobs is in case the boss has to be immune to crowd control, in that case, having a lot of mobs makes CC worth it.
    So what happen on Zariel and Tomm..tank gets aggro turn boss whit back on team ppl spam artifacts and mounts then everyone use theyr cooldowns on them..next is boss mechanic ppl hop left or righ...run far or hug the group for spliting dmg...some huge aoe dmg where healer have to heal and so on..i think mod 1/2 where had more fun dungeons and more intresting becose of mobs..and remember in dread vault on last boss where more bosses and mobs to fight whit..that whas fun for me ...i gues i like to be in a pathetically tiny minority :p<3=)
  • tardbathtardbath Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    A good tank with the proper ilvl and well played rotations, should be able to do a decent amount of damage
    and even do more, than a bad geared DPS with wrong position and bad rotations.
    Just check other mmo's with a real pve gameplay, just check if a dps can run ahead and tank mobs in a dungeon without dying.
    It surely can on NW (live) and preview.. Are tanks only needed for Zariel and Halaster in this game ? Do you guys want them to?

    Cheers
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