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nebiros13nebiros13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2 Arc User
What about buff or balance on GF Dps? the worst Dps in game now, we cant do end game trials with a nice performance.
it's shameful.
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Comments

  • exgardianexgardian Member Posts: 247 Arc User
    Even the Wizard could beome the top 3 DPS. Fighters barely appear in top 5
    2fv72Fw.png
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    You are lucky. Paladins do not even have a DPS loadout. At least Dreadnoughts are not that squishy.
  • melechestmelechest Member Posts: 106 Arc User
    @drago

    They wont put a DPS loadout on paladin ever. If they ever do it i see a ton of paladins switching to DPS without even thinking about it. And then the game would have even less tanks than it has now.
  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    melechest said:

    @drago

    They wont put a DPS loadout on paladin ever. If they ever do it i see a ton of paladins switching to DPS without even thinking about it. And then the game would have even less tanks than it has now.

    That is what I would call bad behaviour. Force people of the most popular class to play what only a few would do without force. Do not misunderstand. That there are still not only few Paladins is not because the Oathkeeper and Justicar are great. It is only because of the popularity of Paladin class.
  • plasticbatplasticbat Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 9,652 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    melechest said:

    @drago

    They wont put a DPS loadout on paladin ever. If they ever do it i see a ton of paladins switching to DPS without even thinking about it. And then the game would have even less tanks than it has now.

    That was what they did. Both OP and GF could be a huge DPS back then. The bubble OP was the war machine. Does any Paladin use bubble these days?
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,235 Arc User
    nebiros13 said:

    What about buff or balance on GF Dps? the worst Dps in game now, we cant do end game trials with a nice performance.
    it's shameful.

    Fighters get to keep their block even when running as dps. Block is extremely useful to stay alive. Staying alive means you lose less dps from deaths.

    How do you balance something like that?
  • vastano#2343 vastano Member Posts: 169 Arc User
    ranger should have healing abilities even if only self healing
    remember rangers have thier own set of spells same as bards do
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,345 Arc User
    Eh, GF is *passable* in terms of DPS. Nowhere near the best Arbiters, or good Trappers, but this isn't Mod 17 where you could not beat launch day Tower with a full team of GF DPS*.

    Epeen chart positioning aside, I would rather see an adjustment to GF's playstyle to be more interactive and fun to play rather than "ignore meter entirely, press encounters, hold down Heavy Slash, apply daily as needed".

    *assuming players were holding down Brazen Slash as everyone was doing on Mod 17 launch, and not canceling Heavy Slash, which only became known in Mod 18.


    Fighters get to keep their block even when running as dps. Block is extremely useful to stay alive. Staying alive means you lose less dps from deaths.

    How do you balance something like that?

    I think that GF is "intended" to be lower on the DPS spectrum because of that advantage: the effective 50% more HP to hide behind means mistakes aren't as punishing, but you "pay" for it with lower DPS potential as a result.

    Though that advantage disappears as players get better at running the content. Most attacks can be avoided and anything that forces you to take damage is survivable without Guard (provided you're hitting your caps like every other class).

  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    rjc9000 said:



    Fighters get to keep their block even when running as dps. Block is extremely useful to stay alive. Staying alive means you lose less dps from deaths.

    How do you balance something like that?

    I think that GF is "intended" to be lower on the DPS spectrum because of that advantage: the effective 50% more HP to hide behind means mistakes aren't as punishing, but you "pay" for it with lower DPS potential as a result.

    Though that advantage disappears as players get better at running the content. Most attacks can be avoided and anything that forces you to take damage is survivable without Guard (provided you're hitting your caps like every other class).
    Sounds like an after-the-fact justification to me.

    Assassins and Shadowknives have 75% deflect severity, and completely ignore damage/control when roll-teleporting.
    I don't see anyone arguing that their DPS is too high because they have good defense.

    Barbarians can move double speed. This lets them get to battle faster and reduces downtime between melee targets.

    Rangers can use their power to completely refresh a new set of encounters, whether offensive, defensive, or utility.

    Every class has a useful power. Wizards, perhaps, have the most useless one... but then again they have an extra encounter. The wizard could use an added little effect to teleport: Each teleport reduces encounter recharges by .1 second.

    The fighter could use a little bump to the usefulness of it's underperforming class features and dailies, IMO.

    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,083 Arc User
    Rangers are also required to switch from range to melee. If they switch back, they're still on cooldown.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,225 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Most attacks can be avoided and anything that forces you to take damage is survivable without Guard (provided you're hitting your caps like every other class).

    Except there are a lot of attacks that can be avoided with dodge/sprint/shadowslip that will one shot you with block as either Dreadnaught or Oathkeeper.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,345 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    rjc9000 said:

    Most attacks can be avoided and anything that forces you to take damage is survivable without Guard (provided you're hitting your caps like every other class).

    Except there are a lot of attacks that can be avoided with dodge/sprint/shadowslip that will one shot you with block as either Dreadnaught or Oathkeeper.
    That's why I said that most attacks can be avoided. People can use the Get Out of The Way maneuver and literally just walk outside the attack's range, iframe or no iframe.

    Most attacks that force DPS players to take damage usually have that annoying piercing damage type (ie, can't dodge out of it) but are completely survivable without Guard, provided the team does the mechanic directly and the player isn't skimping on Defense.

    Take the Sword Clusters in Zariel. The gimmick is that a sword will point at two random party members and will fire an attack that hits in a wide spread. You literally cannot iframe this damage since it has that unavoidable damage type from Mod 12, so the solution is to have the two targeted players point the clusters away from the team and away from each other.

    If the players do the mechanic correctly, each player gets hit for a large amount of their HP (~300,000-400,000ish), but it's survivable so as long as they have defense capped. If the targeted players screw up and point the clusters at each other, there is a very high chance they will die from high amount of damage pointed their way.


    Assassins and Shadowknives have 75% deflect severity, and completely ignore damage/control when roll-teleporting.
    I don't see anyone arguing that their DPS is too high because they have good defense.

    The bonus Deflect Severity does not make that much of an appreciable different in PvE, since most of a TR's Survivability is tied to their HP and Defense score. DPSers in dungeons/trials aren't intended to take many hits that make Deflect necessary. Those random lifesaving deflects on things like Disintegration Wave are completely avoidable whether by doing the mechanic or by just getting completely out of the way of the attack. Otherwise, most of the damage DPSers are forced to take are already more than survivable with capping Defense and meeting the required HP score needed to not die.

    Invincibility frames on dodge (and roll/teleport/sprint/shadowslip) aren't a factor in surviving, since the game has an annoying tendency to just apply piercing damage to most attacks (the damage type with a skull). Sure, the iframes will help survive in easier instances, but class balance isn't a problem in easier content. It's not like a 3x Whisperknife team will struggle to beat the likes of Gray Wolf Den or Castle Never.



    Sounds like an after-the-fact justification to me.

    /shrug

    It is no secret that GF DPS is on the lower side of a tier list, not quite joke tier like Whisperknife, Archer, or Thaumaturge, but not near the good performers like Barbarian or Trapper.

    Apparently, GF damage output is apparently in line with whatever they cooked up in their head, which is why joebot basically said "[the dev tam will do what minor adjustments they can to GF DPS] while trying not to push the class too far" in Mod 19.

  • drago#3250 drago Member Posts: 190 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    Eh, GF is *passable* in terms of DPS. Nowhere near the best Arbiters, or good Trappers, but this isn't Mod 17 where you could not beat launch day Tower with a full team of GF DPS*.

    Epeen chart positioning aside, I would rather see an adjustment to GF's playstyle to be more interactive and fun to play rather than "ignore meter entirely, press encounters, hold down Heavy Slash, apply daily as needed".

    *assuming players were holding down Brazen Slash as everyone was doing on Mod 17 launch, and not canceling Heavy Slash, which only became known in Mod 18.


    Fighters get to keep their block even when running as dps. Block is extremely useful to stay alive. Staying alive means you lose less dps from deaths.

    How do you balance something like that?

    I think that GF is "intended" to be lower on the DPS spectrum because of that advantage: the effective 50% more HP to hide behind means mistakes aren't as punishing, but you "pay" for it with lower DPS potential as a result.

    Though that advantage disappears as players get better at running the content. Most attacks can be avoided and anything that forces you to take damage is survivable without Guard (provided you're hitting your caps like every other class).
    Sounds like block is automatic without spend of stamina. I have to remember that many Paingiver have Dodge that completly ignore 100% of incoming damage.
  • jeannearcrl#8535 jeannearcrl Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    Man I play with GF since Mod 15 turning to 16 and since that time it hasn't changed like the other classes, because he was a fighter he was supposed to have a good damage and stay in the TOP 5 dps, however that doesn't happen, for he had only damage was supposed to be the same as DC nowadays, then the GF Class will not be changed because it will influence the PVP because GF is stolen there and the guys will cry more than they currently cry, another aspect and that of tank that agro is horrible and weak, it is difficult to hold agro with buff from other classes.

    GF and a class with good potential to have high dps, before the att of the class buff always remained at 1 or second in the top DPS now and the worst dps in the game.

    now I see a lot of people giving their opinion about the class and tals saying that it is still a good dps, one more question for some of you currently play with GF? or did you jump into a robust class today?
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    Guardian Fighter was always this one class that was off in terms of balance, either too good (but boring) or too bad (and somewhat fun in PvP).

    This reminds me of Rogue class in a way. Had similar class history.

    However, whoever thinks that Wizard is better than Guardian Fighter in damage is sorely wrong. You just haven't met a good Guardian Fighter who is specced as DPS. Even though there is only 1 offense slot, GF can hit hard. A good Guardian Fighter will do as much damage as a good Warlock. For all this time playing NWO, I know only two GF players that know what they're doing with the class, and that alone tells a lot about how badly some people are playing this class. They do this class no justice imo.

    Right now (and once again) Barb overshadows GF in both Tanking and Damage itself, but that's not to say that GF is horrible to play. You can still find plenty of uses for GF tank. (often a better personality :P jk jk )

    I'd say GF tank for Zariel combo with OP, whilst solo Barb tank for ToMM.

    Barb tanks right now are possibly the most fun class to play, next to Rogues.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User

    You are lucky. Paladins do not even have a DPS loadout. At least Dreadnoughts are not that squishy.

    I assure you that Tank Paladins are doing quite a bit of damage at the moment : >
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • durugudesudurugudesu Member Posts: 555 Arc User
    oh god these arguments again..

    This is an MMO. mediocre players outnumber "decent" players.'

    sigh.

  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    To make your Dreadnought Fighter great... do the following:

    1) grab the same BiS gear as other DPS classes

    2) obviously, work toward max stones, insignias, & mount boosts

    3) equip a mount with Tunnel vision and another with +15,000 power

    4) select the 5 bottom feats on the feat tree

    5) for the character feats... use Momentum and the last one (+5% damage)

    6) Encounters: Bull Charge always +(Tremor/Onslaught) for AoE, +(AnvilofDoom/CommandersStrike) for Bosses

    7) At-Will: Heavy Slash & Reave (only use Reave for quick long distance clean-up & vs packed mobs)

    8) Active Companion: Xuna or Abyssal Chicken

    9) Companion Powers: Potent Precision, Baby Deepcrow, Minstrel, Owbear Cub, +any 2 others

    10) Equipment Special Notes: At least 1 Warlords Inspiration Insignia Power... It is possible to use 5x, 6x Indomitable Runestones, 1x r15 Tenebrous enchantment, anything that will increase Encounter Damage since most of your damage comes from encounters.

    11) Consumables: "They all work together"
    Wild Storm Elixir
    Watermelon Sorbet
    Superior Flask of Potency
    Invocation Blessing
    any Guild Hall Food of choice
    Llirra's Bell of Empowerment (equipped)
    Burning Forger's Box, Alliance Battle Horn, or Portable Altar (equipped)
    Healing Potion or Stone (equipped)

    12)Artifacts Lots of choices here, nothing best. Either get a set of StoryTellers artifacts (using Envenomed power), or equip Staff of Flowers along with the best stats artifacts you can obtain.


    There you go. With that set up, if your play is good, your gonna usually be top DPS. When you are beat it will most often be by a Ranger with a Xuna or Chicken. I'm not gonna give too much justification, except that with this setup Xuna deals over 100,000 DPS in Tiamat.. and you'll be dealing about 70,000. Total = 170,000 dps
  • Guardian Fighter was always this one class that was off in terms of balance, either too good (but boring) or too bad (and somewhat fun in PvP).
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 6,083 Arc User
    They lost what amounted to their DPS path when each class was reduced to 2 options.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • zyronaxzyronax Member Posts: 153 Arc User
    > @greywynd said:
    > They lost what amounted to their DPS path when each class was reduced to 2 options.

    Gods, I miss the pre-Mod 16 combat-&-skill-tree system.
  • sandukutupusandukutupu Member Posts: 2,253 Arc User
    Well the problem is clear to me. This game is played most of the time as solo combat. The companies want you to party up with other people. In the table top version, produced by Wizards of the Coast, wizards don't trot off down dark hallways by themselves. Tanks don't speed run ahead of the rest of the party. We use a marching order with rogues and tanks in the front to sniff out traps and wizards and clerics in the rear. This is how they expect us to play this game 90% of the time. I know, I don't play like that myself and I can't because of their current system.

    Instead we run their multiplayer content as if, it were a standalone game. Technically the classes are not suppose to be "in balance", the party is suppose to be "in balance". This was their whole point to forcing healers and tanks into every dungeon queue. Most of the players desire to be an army of one and don't bother to support the group at all.

    As a result, we get to hear the players complain about their wizard isn't able to best a barbarian, my cleric can't better a rogue, or my fighter can't match the paladin. Those debates don't matter when you are working together in a group. In module 16 they made all these classes way too simplistic from my point of view. Crab about it all you want, it has been very apparent to me, we will never be "balanced". This is why PvP will never work for this game. Class balance will only matter in PvP.

    Those are just my opinions. I don't think you will have a developer poke his head in this thread anytime soon.

    Have fun! <3
    wb-cenders.gif
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited October 2020

    Well the problem is clear to me. This game is played most of the time as solo combat. The companies want you to party up with other people. In the table top version, produced by Wizards of the Coast, wizards don't trot off down dark hallways by themselves. Tanks don't speed run ahead of the rest of the party. We use a marching order with rogues and tanks in the front to sniff out traps and wizards and clerics in the rear. This is how they expect us to play this game 90% of the time. I know, I don't play like that myself and I can't because of their current system.

    Yes, but you have to see that if developers and the team behind are to plunge into cRPG area, and MMO one at that, whilst having many classes to choose from and put into 18MODS worth of content together, whilst also offering Action RPG combat system, there has to be a dedicated team of people that will work on the class combat/balance between the content and players' experience.

    This is simply logical.

    We don't have that. We don't have development behind these things that can follow and come to a conclusion, we have companies that ask for basically 90% of resources to follow current DnD trend, and the rest is basically the economy under PWIs supervision to some extent. Even if developers were to work on something, their hands are tied before this is talked through with the higher-ups.

    We, as players, can only pursue and continue pursuing with our own demands on what we want this game to look like, and as long as it is reasonable this can be adjusted to some extent the way I see. Some of our demands that reflectedthe game on its whole were changed, but the classes' balance is the most difficult point to adjust.

    Instead we run their multiplayer content as if, it were a standalone game. Technically the classes are not suppose to be "in balance", the party is suppose to be "in balance". This was their whole point to forcing healers and tanks into every dungeon queue. Most of the players desire to be an army of one and don't bother to support the group at all.

    You have to realize that we do play this game from an Action RPG standpoint and that will forever be the standalone version of the Client/Game. In strategy and turn based cRPG, that's different.
    Trials and Dungeons can be played with fewer people, but essentially we're not talking about the balance form the standpoint of what the game needs, but from the balance in terms of how one Healer compares to other Healer, or how one DPS compares to other DPS. This is the balance we talk about, and that is the balance that is lacking the most.

    As a result, we get to hear the players complain about their wizard isn't able to best a barbarian, my cleric can't better a rogue, or my fighter can't match the paladin. Those debates don't matter when you are working together in a group. In module 16 they made all these classes way too simplistic from my point of view. Crab about it all you want, it has been very apparent to me, we will never be "balanced". This is why PvP will never work for this game. Class balance will only matter in PvP.

    Those are just my opinions. I don't think you will have a developer poke his head in this thread anytime soon.

    Have fun! <3</p>

    I'm sorry you feel or only notice these points nowadays, but it is simply not correct nor reflects what we're on about in these types of topics.


    Look, if you want to be a part of the team to begin with you need to be able to bring something to the table as a class. If you do not bring it, you are overshadowed.

    I'll make it very simplified:
    - If your class can't bring something to the table, your class is ignored and you do not end up working as a team as your class is simply not fast enough to dish out enough damage. Although this might not be a big difference at the moment, it will become as newer and more damaging abilities and weapons are introduced. Each 100MAG is 100% of Weapon Damage. Some classes have so much magnitude compared to other that with newer and more potent weapons, they will become more powerful and stronger as each new mod follows. This is basic math.
    - Since we had this in the past with the 1GWFand4Buffers, we're trying to once again defeat such a scenario in its roots furthermore contemplating that even without having the best damage, there are prevailing bugs on top of the class powers (like Wizard) which are obsolete, aren't used and are fairly an inconvenience in ANY content bar one trial where this class is actually useful.
    - Since we know the history of NWO's changes down the line, and since we've also quite a bit of apathy to carry as a banner whenever we talk Class Balance on the forum, to us it is a bit more serious as we invest our time, effort, and money to make something fun for us. Devs seem to have a different idea every now and then, which in turn becomes this horrid scenario where we have to QQ for approximately a year or two before we can finally get to the point where we get FIXES to the class, let alone some damage increase.

    I did explain this before, and I will explain it again - Wizard in its current state is not fun to play, has horrible DPS compared to other classes, is full of bugs, and has only one viable playstyle. All of that combined leads to the consensus that an overhaul of the class is needed, that the direction for the Wizard class is completely off, and that it is not even half of the work done on the wizard compared to other classes.

    Now, complains on the forum and various QQ that follows would stop IF someone would communicate or come forward to explain and state why there is no development on the Wizard, but so far this did not happen for a very long time which makes people that main Wizards basically and practically revolted.

    That is a problem whether you agree with it, or not. We need this communication to happen, and happen fast. We can't wait 2021 or 2022 to see progress in the right direction. That is not an option.
    This was never about having friends to play with or party's composition in general, but the lack of care by dev side which is prominent and apparent.
    This is about Developers saying that they will WORK on class balance which is why, according to them, a good portion of M16 happened. Instead of communication which they promised, we've a complete silence.
    And we want to see classes' balance now, but we aren't seeing it. Things are stagnant for almost a year now on the Wizard class. This is an issue. If you can't see this, then you're simply out of the loop, unfortunately.

    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    What options would emerge if the wizard class had a feat that gave +100% control bonus in PvE, +25% in PvP ???
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User

    What options would emerge if the wizard class had a feat that gave +100% control bonus in PvE, +25% in PvP ???

    You'd have people (mostly melee classes) QQing on the forum that they can't win in PvP, like we had in earliest mods.

    Though, not at first. Right now it is like UT99s Instagib match with Tunnel Vision having 3k Mag. Frankly, don't care for PvP that much other than when it affects PVE aspect of the game. We've been saying this for the longest time, PvP powers should not equate PvE powers.
    I think that Chicken PvP should be a 100% thing. Pluck your way to the top. I actually played Chicken PvP and it was sort of fun I guess.

    ASAP Wizzy (or other magic user) gets a tiny bit of an upper hand in any scenario, a ton of "It is not realistic that magic can deal more than 7tf cold steel salad chopper" ppl will come around. Like that one guy/girl idk that was against ranged users having Combat Advantage simply because they are ranged.

    Regardless, I'm for buffing up Guardian Fighters to be on par with Barbarians that utilize stuff like Brash Strike.

    And weirdly enough I know that Guardian Fighters will get some buffs, whilst Wizards won't. That's the reality of this game. > _ >

    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
  • nooneatzanooneatza Member Posts: 173 Arc User


    And weirdly enough I know that Guardian Fighters will get some buffs, whilst Wizards won't. That's the reality of this game. > _ >

    I'm never one to be toxic on the forums since it just attracts bad publicity, so if this is considered too vitriolic i kindly ask some forum mod to just snip this whole post...
    ...but god damn you're everywhere crying about wizards. Cryptic is probably looking at the 2 wizards who actually play the game instead of complaining and decide wizards don't need that many buffs lmao.

    If devs want to make skill gap smaller then that's another discussion, yes, rework damage dealers completely(again), i've seen many struggle to do over 100k dps whlist having 230k power.

    The issue is about git gud, not about "pls buf".


    (yes some classes are weaker than others, perfect class balancing is an abstract concept that only exists in theory, at skill ceiling you can complete any content with any class)
  • c1k4ml3kc3c1k4ml3kc3 Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
    edited October 2020
    nooneatza said:


    And weirdly enough I know that Guardian Fighters will get some buffs, whilst Wizards won't. That's the reality of this game. > _ >

    The issue is about git gud, not about "pls buf".

    Ye, I will support and advocate my main class. How weird, no?

    In that case you should git gud in understanding the issue rather than thinking it's about someone's inability to play the actual game.

    :-1:

    I will make it simplified for you, too:

    - Devs are not communicating with us, at all, nor fixing bugs for almost a year now. That's the main Wizzy issue, ask any Wizzy worth his 2 cents and you will get the same reply.
    True Neutral
    Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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