@joebot#9387 I haven't got to test yet as I'm on Xbox but as someone who has mained a Ranger for 5 or 6 years daily now, I will say these changes look like they are headed in the right direction. There are some great suggestions here. I will reiterate the Hunter path needs work. The cool downs are way to long with out a major increase in at will damage to fill the void. Shorten aimed shot more and increase the mag. Binding arrow should be in the Hunter path. Longstriders should give damage buff to ranged powers. Please buff Careful Attack. Aspect of the Falcon should be a ranged damage buff if farther than 25 feet. Slasher's Mark should be in the warden path for melee use, it isnt for an archer or trapper to use. We need to build action points quicker. Whether that's through an increase to biting snares or just more on each power use either will work but an archer needs to be able to use Snipe sooner. The Ambush power still needs to be fixed as it doesnt always provide stealth or the damage buff. Marauders Escape needs to provide a dodge when it is cast before the enemy's power is cast. Lastly, our shift is way shorter than other classes distance traveled. That would be fine if our stamina was increased to allow more dodges to take place. I hope your team will give these suggestions some serious thought. These might not put us on the damage level of other classes but would help the Hunter path tremendously and allow players to play as an archer.
Thorned Roots are actually already performing very well on trash, (especially in tandem with the double uptime feat.)
If PvP is a problem, the natural solution would be to buff the magnitudes of encounter powers and making them more reliable. Lets be honest, the Aimed Shot at-will has higher magnitude (200) than half of our encounters. (and once again, if it will be over-performing, it is the magnitude to touch, no further increase to cast time, please)
There is no reason to rely on roots too heavily. It is just one of the proposed ways to go.
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
@gabrieldourden@flublblblu I think all of the root and dot damage was basically nerfed in previous mods because of the carry over to PVP and how it became overpowering in there. Any suggestions on how to keep the increases relative to PVE so we don't have an uprising in PVP?
It was overperforming in all content. At one point. Roots were ridiculous good. And, as they do with all overperforming things instead of a small reduction, they changed it so that it couldn't do anything. It was the same as the CW holds. They stacked, and actually provided control against enemies. HR was one of the most wanted characters to do dungeons because you'd root everybody, then everyone sweeps in and kills it all. Or, as a CW, you'd apply chill to lock them in ice, then same deal. All control effects were effectively removed when they saw that we were controlling enemies to kill them easier. Which is the point of cc, so I'm not sure why they got so upset about it tbh. But, because we aren't allowed to actually control enemies, I don't forsee a return of roots at any point, not as a control, nor as a stacking DoT mechanic even without the concerns of PvP taken into account. Probably the *best* we could hope for is if it was swapped to something else entirely. Which is quite sad.
To be honest the control side is way less relevant now. As somebody put it "if it can be controlled, it doesn't need to". Everything you can control is just trash you can burn through. Most boss fights are now single target-control immune bosses in an empty arena. All control tactics this game needed in the beginning are now basically useless. The game is way more one-dimensional than it was.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Yeah, my point is that is completely irrelevant now BECAUSE it was relevant and doing what it was supposed to do before. We used CC. We "overperformed". Now everything is control immune so we can't control.
There should be. I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying, 5 years of experience tells me it won't happen becuase they're afraid it'll overperform again. Anything that's overperformed in the past doesn't get a revive. That's why I said I hope they just rip it out and give us something else.
@joebot#9387 I really appreciate you taking your time and going through all of these buffs for Hunter. It REALLY needed some love. Unfortunately, though, it's not quite enough. It needed a bit...actually, no, it needs A LOT of more love. I have been a very experienced HR ( Ranger ) ever since it's release. I never post here unless Ranger needs a huge buff. As you can see, not a lot of people are happy with the current Ranger. Here are my suggestions to make Hunter better as a whole for both PvE and PvP. Especially with Mod 19 around the corner.
Feats.
- Rate of change = 10% to 20% ( Keep the decay for it's buff balance. ) - Thorned Roots = 50 to 100 per second. 150 to 250 vs immune targets. - Biting Snares = 1% to 2% ( 1% is too weak; 2% is the sweet spot. Can't be any higher. ) - Forest Bond - 10% to 15% on Strong Grasping Roots. 5% to 10% on Weak Grasping Roots. ( Atm the gap between cooldowns is still too far vs Warden's cooldowns in terms of rotations ) - More Than Disruptive & Slasher's Expertise = Both need to get changed to ALL damage. 10% kept on Disruptive. 10% to 15% on Slasher's ( Considering Disruptive is 25% AP and Slasher's on 100% AP, it's only fair to give it that extra boost on Slasher's. )
Encounters and At-wills.
-Constricting Arrow = 400 to 450. - Commanding Shot = Cast time reduced to 1 sec. 10% to 15% ( Casting animation is too long in any fight. ) - Windwalk Strike = 150 to 350. Remove charges. Immunity through animation cast time. - Rapid Volley = 75 to 150. 3 charges instead of 5. ( Faster burst potential ) - Careful attack = 10 to 50. ( Careful attack has been completely useless. 10 mag per tick is way too low. ) - Aimed Shot = ( Currently still 1.4 sec. Needs to be corrected to 1 sec as buffed. )
Class Features.
- Aspect of the Serpent = 2% to 4% ( Downed from 3 stacks to 2 for consistency. ) - Cruel Recovery = 2 sec ICD to 1 sec ICD ( 2 seconds is way too long for such a small heal ) - Aspect of the Pack = Grants CA. 25' Range to allies. ( Stat buff is irrelevant considering everyone caps regardless. )
Lastly, Dailies.
- Disruptive Shot = Remove Interrupt. Daze for .5 seconds instead. - Snipe = 1.25s to 1 sec. ( Too long for only 1500 mag...while almost every other class gets 1600 mag at less. ) - Forest Ghost = 1 sec to .75s ( Easily interrupted at a 1sec cast time. )
That about concludes it for buffs on Ranger ( Hunter ). I hope you consider most of the buffs made on this forum/post. Thank you, and will be waiting to see you again soon.
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited June 2020
I would second @whitespicyrice for a Trapper build. Archer is a separate story.
As a first step I would propose: - actually reduce the time to 1 second for Aimed Shot as stated in the opening post - make Longshot work on all ranged powers (including at-wills and dailies) - bring Binding Arrow to the Hunter
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
As a Warden Archer (with some melee out of necessity) i would like to provide the following feedback;
Use of Powers; Warden archers are reliant on both binding and constricting arrow for single target ranged damage. I wouldn't want to see them move to Hunter but it would be beneficial to all players if Binding Arrows moved to both paragons.
Weakness of Warden Archer; electric shock may be okay for aoe but the warden archer lacks an at will for single target damage - and falls way behind warden melee x2 damage feat. Please consider this feat and issue of single target.
Aspect of the Pack; this is currently not of any use, please provide rangers with a combat advantage option similar to pre mod 16 or link it to temporary CA after a power use for x amount of time.
Flexibility between Paragons; one idea is to allow rangers of both paragons to choose one power from the other Paragon path. This could replace aspect of the lone wolf e.g. 'jack of all trades'.
Let us know how extensive you are able and willing to rework Rangers. But I'm going to assume you're all short on time for Mod19 changes. Thus, i'll reiterate the most pressing issues involving pure archers (no melee) that can be changed and tested on the fly.
But just 3 things you need to remember: Mobs aren't Test Dummies. Most content in NW are solo. The 1%-5% min-max feedback with 150k-200k power do not apply to the majority
Most newb-intermediate level 80s have to go through 18 campaigns, solo mobs and have access to 60k-90k power (at most). They need roots, bonus damage vs roots, better rotation (cooldown, not necessarily damage) and certainly don't just melt mobs unlike other overpowered classes at the same item and power level.
Hunter Archer:
The damage of the Hunter Archer already exceed those of my Warden Archer while testing it with my Warden Archer sets. My Warden Archer build is already as efficient as it could possibly go. So to exceed the damage without using special pre-built gears and sets means the damage is already at the minimum decent.
But the trouble is Rotation. Marauder's Escape's cooldown is too high for any decent or acceptable rotation. It's always short 3-4 seconds when I needed to 'escape' from the clutches of mobs.
Single targets: Warden is good at AOE but extremely weak vs. single targets. While we have 2 decent single targets encounters: Constricting + Binding Arrows, our single target at-will option is virtually nonexistant.
Now I heard the Hunters want our Binding Arrows too. As I've said in the other thread. If they really want Binding Arrows, just move it to the general pool and move Rain of Arrows to Warden and call it Rain of Lightning or Rain of Roots giving it lightning attack or bonus to roots as well as increasing the area.
We got Rapidshot with 0.4s cast / 50 magnitude with no bonus whatsoever. Give it 75 magnitude so it can be actually be useful at the bare minimum. Aimed shot (Hunter) on Preview with 1.4s cast / 200 magnitude is already strong. Now you are are changing it to 1s cast /200 magnitude (with all the Hunter feat bonuses) while Warden option is 0.4s / 50 magnitude?
Electric Shot is our go-to AOE at-will but it requires a slight damage buff from 40 magnitude to 60 magnitude.
Split the Sky Split the sky has high cast time, high cooldown and hits one target at a time for 120 magnitude. Make it hit multiple targets. The problem is Archers are being punished for double-dipping stance switching. Just turn it off / make it disappear when people switch stance so you can give it proper buff.
I'll go over the feats and other abilities if you time to rework those.
Ps (the trouble is the Archery rework by @amenar was supposed to be 2 - part affair. He did the low-hanging fruit first because animation / cast times will take significant resources and pegged it for later. He never got to part 2 because he left Cryptic. His replacement moved to Magic the Gathering so quickly. Meanwhile @noworries had to condense 3 trees to 2 for mod 16. The process eviscerated much of the advances @amenar did with the old Stormwarden.
While he did a good job with the new Warden Archer Lightning tree (really, big props to that for making a completely new build), it's not complete, it still needs tweaks that is not done since Mod 16. I used to complain Barbarians/Rogues had double/triple our single target at-will. Barbarians got a buff and now getting a 2nd buff???
For the Hunter Archer, I assume he ran out of time. That tree is literally a mish-mash frankenstein (no rhyme or reason or rotation, and I've used pure archer (no melee) since Ranger class launch, and my old build up to mod 15 was completely demolished).
@zerappus you are not wrong in ur analysis, however the underlying problem with the Ranger is that with every other DPS/DPS class is that they have a defined role for each paragon that is based on Single Target or AOE. The Ranger has as you put it a mish mash, Warden has Melee that is strong in AOE and respectable single target and a Ranged that is weak AOE and non-existent single Target. The Hunter has a Melee that is CC and DoT based that actually cancels its own DoT but if working properly would be considered an AOE Melee, and a Ranged which could be considered the next good build for damage which is still 20-30% worse than Warden Melee and is single target. The goal in my mind for the short term is to get a second viable build for Ranger, the Warden Melee build is a viable build, as such, the focus should be to get a Ranged build, Hunter Ranged is closer to being viable than any of the other options. The major difference at the moment is in the damage output, the Warden offers 25% more damage to all powers after 10 seconds of not stance switching, 25% more Severity on crits and double damage on at-wills 100% of the time if your rotation is up. I will not do all the math but basically to sum that up from base damage you are getting approximately 37% more damage with an at-will with a cooldown of 0.7s cast time and 140 magnitude. The Hunter currently has with changes to come an at-will that has a 1s cast time with 200 magnitude, yes a 10% damage increase can be added for 10 sec with the use of a daily, and if it crits another 5%, but that is not enough to make up for the 37% base average of the Warden which becomes 50% damage on a crit.
The first change has to be to change "Longshot" Feat to be 50% more damage on Ranged Attacks, 50% less damage on Melee. This will create a clear delineation between ranged and melee in the paragon and allow the Ranged powers to be balanced after with tweeks to magnitude to ensure it is not overperforming.
Any changes to magnitudes and cooldowns in my opinion are premature before a change like this is implemented, it is a simple sweeping change that will close the gap between the Warden Melee and a viable Ranged build. Do encounter powers need to be swapped between paragons or other adjustments to improve DoT etc, sure, but this is the lowest hanging fruit, one change like this makes our mainhand and Ranged dps viable.
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
The entire point of the Ranger class is that it uses both melee and ranged powers. Any approach that emphasizes one over the other, much less excludes one, is therefore wrong.
If that's too hard to design then ditch the melee powers, turn the offhand into a quiver and call it a ranged/archer class. Rogues already exist; melee-oriented Rangers are pointless.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
@dheffernan i don't disagree, but for 3 mods we have only had one viable play style, melee. The last time we had a viable stance switching build was mod 15 and it was a hybrid Archer/Melee. The goals of the Dev was to make a quick pass on Ranger Hunter side to get a viable build. So to come in and say unless u have a stance switching build you might as well do nothing and it is pointless is helping no one. It's is easy to complain about the state of the Ranger, quite another to make suggestions that move it in the right direction given the limited scope they are allowing us this Mod.
@joebot#9387 thanks for making this thread. I'm "Neko-Kun" on PC, and have finished Zariel's Challenge on the preview server. Some suggestions I have:
Warden: - Focused should be increased back to 25%. I think on the preview server we are quite a bit behind barbarians, slightly behind assassin and dreadnought. - Deft strikes should be a 20% buff. It is more difficult to use than focused, and 10% is not a good enough incentive to steer players away from its competitor. - Swiftness feat: Change from 1 second to 1.5 seconds, and 0.5 seconds on cordon/hindering to 1 second. Will bring more parity with storms recovery. - Skirmishers gambit: The nerf to 25% crit severity is definitely fair, but -10,000 crit is a bit harsh. Perhaps -7,500? - To the wind: This is hard to make effective. Reduce defense penalty to -7,500, but give a 7.5% bonus to damage. This will make it more of a competitor with Skirmishers Gambit. - Aspect of the Serpent: Change the stacks to 3% damage from 2% - Split the sky: I'm not sure how fast to make this, but a slightly faster cast speed (maybe 0.25 seconds) and more hits/magnitude (25 more per hit perhaps). - Electric shot to 60 magnitude. It cannot currently complete with storm strike for ST.
Hunter: - Rate of Change: 10% is not good enough to compete with longshot feat. This feat is clunky to use. Perhaps 20% to start, down 4% per second. - Thorned Roots: Should be 150 magnitude on CC immune targets (bosses) to increase effectiveness. - Biting Snares: I think 2.5% up from 1% would allow smoother rotations. - Forest Bond: My suggestion is 20% on SGR and TGR, 10% on WGR - Slashers Expertise: This costs 1000 AP vs DS's 250 AP. This feat needs to be made competitive with More Than Disruptive, or have its cost reduced to 500 AP.
Thank you for your efforts. - Neko
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
@dheffernan i don't disagree, but for 3 mods we have only had one viable play style, melee. The last time we had a viable stance switching build was mod 15 and it was a hybrid Archer/Melee. The goals of the Dev was to make a quick pass on Ranger Hunter side to get a viable build. So to come in and say unless u have a stance switching build you might as well do nothing and it is pointless is helping no one. It's is easy to complain about the state of the Ranger, quite another to make suggestions that move it in the right direction given the limited scope they are allowing us this Mod.
Funny, I've been running a stance-switching build the whole time and doing all right. It's mostly what this page calls "the bloody rooter": https://cloakalliance.wordpress.com/2019/03/02/basic-ranger-build-for-mod-16/ I expect that may change in m19; I haven't tried copying my character over to Test to try it because of the lack of patch notes.
I don't care what their "design goals" are; the only goal that matters is "does it work?". If they're not going to do it right they should save their time and leave it as is until they do have time to do so.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
Doing all right is not the same thing as actually being competitive with other top tier builds. That's really the problem. I still run trapper style because warden just plain isn't fun to me. My trapper build can still "do all right". I can speed run dailies in less than 5 minutes. I top the damage charts in pug REDQ and even sometimes in RTQ. Sounds great right? Stance-switching must be fine. Except when I run with people who are actually top tier players with top tier builds, not only am I lowest, I'm the lowest *exponentially*. I can't even get half the damage of the next person up. Pit me against a Melee build, and they mop the floor with me. THAT's the problem. Right now neither stance-switching nor archery work as a viable, competitive build. Not even close. So yes, this needs to be addressed. And addressing it a little at a time is better than just letting it sit and get worse. These changes aren't enough. They probably don't even help at all, but at least they are aware enough that it needs to be changed and are making small attempts at balancing it.
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Except when I run with people who are actually top tier players with top tier builds, not only am I lowest, I'm the lowest *exponentially*. I can't even get half the damage of the next person up.
Then those builds are broken and need to be toned down.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
@dheffernan glad you like Lord Willows builds, we compared notes and tried to cover the different build types when Mod 16 came out. Each of the builds were actually designed for the journey up to Level 80 as you can see the last feat in the build wasn't even selected. At level 80 it became clear that Melee was far superior, you can look at my earlier posts in this forum to see why, but to say that because melee must be nerfed to make other builds is silly, Melee is not even the 1st or 2nd dps compared to other classes. Hunter needs a buff, and my suggestion remains that if you include at-wills and dailies as having 50% more damage like encounters (ranged) that will be a start. At-wills on Melee are the top dps so with this change Hunter may need to have some magnitudes adjusted down, but that is a far easier fix than trying to change 2 or 3 at-wills and 4 or 5 encounters and a few class features.
Trapper does deserve some love as well, they question is do we have time...
@dheffernan glad you like Lord Willows builds, we compared notes and tried to cover the different build types when Mod 16 came out. Each of the builds were actually designed for the journey up to Level 80 as you can see the last feat in the build wasn't even selected. At level 80 it became clear that Melee was far superior, you can look at my earlier posts in this forum to see why, but to say that because melee must be nerfed to make other builds is silly, Melee is not even the 1st or 2nd dps compared to other classes. Hunter needs a buff, and my suggestion remains that if you include at-wills and dailies as having 50% more damage like encounters (ranged) that will be a start. At-wills on Melee are the top dps so with this change Hunter may need to have some magnitudes adjusted down, but that is a far easier fix than trying to change 2 or 3 at-wills and 4 or 5 encounters and a few class features.
Trapper does deserve some love as well, they question is do we have time...
Hastur and I did indeed compare notes when we released various levelling to 80 build back at the start of M16... none of those builds including the "bloody rooter" was meant for anything other than fun alternatives during solo play.
The problem with the ranger is that any play that involves our main-hand weapon under-performs by 25-50%, even with the current changes on preview. then you add the fact that the ranger is now near the back of the pack when it comes to single target damage (even with our "best" loadout), and you have a recipe for discontent and strife in the community.
When we talk about viability of a class, that is really a question of "if I bring just this to a run, can we finish?" bring an 6 hunter paragon rangers to Tomm or zariel, with 2 healers and 2 tanks, and you will not be finishing that content... but go into rtq with the same, and you will probably be fine.
Rangers should be the class with the most versatility in this game, with the most options for games play, and they do if all you care about is leveling from 0 to 80... but once you are actually doing "MMO" content, they are some of the least versatile, with lots of choice illusions.
There have been a bunch of great suggestions to fix some of these issues by several folks including @hastur905 ... until some of these things are implemented this will continue to be a source of discontent.
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
> @cust0mx said: > Following feedback is from a friend whom i agree with, i'm just reposting here to insure visibility : > > Hello @joebot#9387, > > My namma Sume and I'm known by many for playing as well as making guide videos on the class Ranger. I finally decided to break my forum silence .........
I totally agree with Sume , he said almost everything I was thinking lol. Especially giving the Warden back it’s 5%s to skirmishers gambit and focused (although the % seems small , it has probably been one of the most felt balancing nerfs that’s happened to the Ranger.) I Also have a stance switching Warden and I feel Sumes also correct that Def strike and serpent need to go up. I also have a Hunter for single Targets and have completed Tomm with it many times. My view on the Hunter,... it has the damage, I often in group with combat advantage and crits hit encounters at 1.3 mil... , Buuuut it’s output speed is too slow . Reducing the cooldowns of all the powerful bow encounters by a few seconds may help the single target Hunter a lot. And honestly this may be pushing it but I think Aimed shot needs to be put down to .8 sec and have the animation not lock you into the shot so you can use encounters easier. But I know you guys have a lot on your plate so even just giving us wardens back our 5%s to focused and Skirmishers gambit will make me very very happy.
I completely agree with Sume. Warden needs it’s 5%s to focused and skirmishers gambit restored, the %s may seem small but I think I felt it the most out all the Rangers losses.
For the stance switcher I also believe serpent and defstrike % should go up.
I only use a Hunter for single targets. It has amazing dmg, it just can’t output it very fast. The Hunter should have all major magnitude encounter cooldowns reduced several seconds . Careful attacks magnitude brought up,.. And this may be pushing it but I feel like Aimed shot should be reduced to 0.8 secs and have the animation not so locked in so it’s easier to use encounters. I know you guys have a lot on your plate so I’d just be happy with the warden getting it’s % back to gambit and focused though, because as it is it’s very hard to keep up with the other balances classes now.
Post edited by mikewho#5331 on
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
The problem with the ranger is that any play that involves our main-hand weapon under-performs by 25-50%, even with the current changes on preview. then you add the fact that the ranger is now near the back of the pack when it comes to single target damage (even with our "best" loadout), and you have a recipe for discontent and strife in the community.
Doesn't the idea that a build that uses melee and ranged powers, given that cooldowns exist, will allegedly underperform one that uses only melee sound not just suspicious, but actually insane? Wouldn't such a case indicate that the designers have completely screwed the pooch?
When we talk about viability of a class, that is really a question of "if I bring just this to a run, can we finish?" bring an 6 hunter paragon rangers to Tomm or zariel, with 2 healers and 2 tanks, and you will not be finishing that content... but go into rtq with the same, and you will probably be fine.
As far as I can tell no one can finish that content, unless of course they don't need to. The going requirement for supposed "endgame content" is capped stats; if you don't have them no one wants you on their team. But if your stats are capped then really, why would you bother? Nothing will drop there that is an improvement for you -- by definition. This seems to be the pattern that's held for the last several years' worth of modules. People don't bother with the upper-tier instances until they can overpower them.
Little digression here.
I don't know if you were around for Cryptic's previous effort, City of Heroes. City's big "endgame raid" was a fight against a giant blob monster called the Hamidon. Well after Cryptic split into two studios (Cryptic went with Champions Online et al; Paragon Studios stayed with City) the devs made an admission: they were never able to defeat the Hamidon in-house. They just threw the content out there with no idea how the players were supposed to win. The strategy the players eventually settled on, involving finessing state changes during the battle, was one they'd never even considered.
Everything I'm seeing suggests we're in the same situation here. The devs don't actually have the chops, in terms of mathematical skill, to design this stuff with any degree of subtlety or nuance. They just throw the kitchen sink at the players (one-shot kills, control effect spam, etc.) and trust the players will find some way to work around or, more hopefully from their perspective, pay to boost their enchants and whatnot to the max and power through it.
So I really don't care about whether or not an all-Ranger DPS wing can clear ToMM or anything else, because by accident or design that content is completely uninteresting.
Rangers should be the class with the most versatility in this game, with the most options for games play, and they do if all you care about is leveling from 0 to 80...
This is the only content anyone should actually care about.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
It appears that many players have commented on either the Ranger class itself being too weak compared to other DPS classes or that Hunters are underperforming compared to Wardens. If we make many of the suggested fixes for Hunters to be on par with Wardens, Rangers overall will still be in the least demand for DPS roles. I could care less if either the Warden or Hunter (or any hybrid) is top as long as the Ranger is as competitive as other DPS classes.
@joebot#9387 It’s seems pretty clear that i think what I’m seeing is Melee wardens want their 5%s back to skirmishers gambit and focused, and Hunters Need a faster output to keep up with the Warden.. I don’t think you guys have to worry about these requested changes making the Ranger come even close to Overperforming. On my Melee Warden ,say in Tomm those % losses to skirmishers gambit and focused actually costed me around 30 -40 million less in final dmg scores, while the other stronger balanced classes with less power have a 80-100 mil+ more total dmg than the Rangers. Don’t let that statement seem like I’m complaining about the other classes, I’m not. and I think asking for too many changes at once may end up causing confusion and chaos lol .I just would really really really like my Melee Wardens focused and skirmishers gambits 5%s restored, and my Hunter and Stance switching warden just to be able to almost keep up with my Melee Warden without lowering the melee wardens Dmg output any further.
@joebot#9387 i think simple changes is best way to start. But I also feel like if all the suggested changes took place, you guys still wouldn’t have to worry about the Ranger coming close to over performing. If I remember correctly the Ranger was one of the classes that got over looked by dmg bonuses being multipliers instead of addition. When the patch came for that us Melee wardens also lost our 5%s to skirmishers gambit and focused in the same time area.This has caused us to be Way under balanced Instead of just slightly weaker compared to a lot of the other classes. I’ll restate I believe the Warden simply needs its 5%s back to focused and skirmishers gambit , for the stance switching warden defstrikeand serpent % needs to be raised and the Hunter still needs a faster output, faster cooldowns and faster stronger atwills to keep up with the melee warden at least on single targets.
The trapper style needs some serious attention, aspect of the serpent and rate if change are an absolute must, aspect does work better now that it builds stacks the way it does, but both of these need more of a damage boost. Plant growth/cordon is completely broken.. by which I mean its not worth using,at all but as an aoe with roots that used to be a must have encounter, it should be looked at. Biting snares at 1% is definitely not enough. And the magnitude of thorned roots could do with an upgrade too. Longstriders could do with getting some sort of debuff/buff back Aspect of the pack could be made better by either going back to how it was or if it's possible pulling the CA section to face the ranger (no idea if that could even work) The numbers I'll leave to people better at it than I am But I just wanted to point out that the trapper style ranger is consistently doing about half the damage of any other well made DPS build.
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I will reiterate the Hunter path needs work. The cool downs are way to long with out a major increase in at will damage to fill the void. Shorten aimed shot more and increase the mag. Binding arrow should be in the Hunter path. Longstriders should give damage buff to ranged powers. Please buff Careful Attack. Aspect of the Falcon should be a ranged damage buff if farther than 25 feet. Slasher's Mark should be in the warden path for melee use, it isnt for an archer or trapper to use. We need to build action points quicker. Whether that's through an increase to biting snares or just more on each power use either will work but an archer needs to be able to use Snipe sooner. The Ambush power still needs to be fixed as it doesnt always provide stealth or the damage buff. Marauders Escape needs to provide a dodge when it is cast before the enemy's power is cast. Lastly, our shift is way shorter than other classes distance traveled. That would be fine if our stamina was increased to allow more dodges to take place.
I hope your team will give these suggestions some serious thought. These might not put us on the damage level of other classes but would help the Hunter path tremendously and allow players to play as an archer.
If PvP is a problem, the natural solution would be to buff the magnitudes of encounter powers and making them more reliable. Lets be honest, the Aimed Shot at-will has higher magnitude (200) than half of our encounters. (and once again, if it will be over-performing, it is the magnitude to touch, no further increase to cast time, please)
There is no reason to rely on roots too heavily. It is just one of the proposed ways to go.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I recommend lower level rangers run as hunter rather than warden so they can contribute in dungeons by stunning.
When daze, stuns and roots are worthless, there should be a decent damage boost from the boss shrugging it off
Feats.
- Rate of change = 10% to 20% ( Keep the decay for it's buff balance. )
- Thorned Roots = 50 to 100 per second. 150 to 250 vs immune targets.
- Biting Snares = 1% to 2% ( 1% is too weak; 2% is the sweet spot. Can't be any higher. )
- Forest Bond - 10% to 15% on Strong Grasping Roots. 5% to 10% on Weak Grasping Roots.
( Atm the gap between cooldowns is still too far vs Warden's cooldowns in terms of rotations )
- More Than Disruptive & Slasher's Expertise = Both need to get changed to ALL damage. 10% kept on Disruptive. 10% to 15% on Slasher's ( Considering Disruptive is 25% AP and Slasher's on 100% AP, it's only fair to give it that extra boost on Slasher's. )
Encounters and At-wills.
-Constricting Arrow = 400 to 450.
- Commanding Shot = Cast time reduced to 1 sec. 10% to 15% ( Casting animation is too long in any fight. )
- Windwalk Strike = 150 to 350. Remove charges. Immunity through animation cast time.
- Rapid Volley = 75 to 150. 3 charges instead of 5. ( Faster burst potential )
- Careful attack = 10 to 50. ( Careful attack has been completely useless. 10 mag per tick is way too low. )
- Aimed Shot = ( Currently still 1.4 sec. Needs to be corrected to 1 sec as buffed. )
Class Features.
- Aspect of the Serpent = 2% to 4% ( Downed from 3 stacks to 2 for consistency. )
- Cruel Recovery = 2 sec ICD to 1 sec ICD ( 2 seconds is way too long for such a small heal )
- Aspect of the Pack = Grants CA. 25' Range to allies. ( Stat buff is irrelevant considering everyone caps regardless. )
Lastly, Dailies.
- Disruptive Shot = Remove Interrupt. Daze for .5 seconds instead.
- Snipe = 1.25s to 1 sec. ( Too long for only 1500 mag...while almost every other class gets 1600 mag at less. )
- Forest Ghost = 1 sec to .75s ( Easily interrupted at a 1sec cast time. )
That about concludes it for buffs on Ranger ( Hunter ). I hope you consider most of the buffs made on this forum/post. Thank you, and will be waiting to see you again soon.
As a first step I would propose:
- actually reduce the time to 1 second for Aimed Shot as stated in the opening post
- make Longshot work on all ranged powers (including at-wills and dailies)
- bring Binding Arrow to the Hunter
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Use of Powers; Warden archers are reliant on both binding and constricting arrow for single target ranged damage. I wouldn't want to see them move to Hunter but it would be beneficial to all players if Binding Arrows moved to both paragons.
Weakness of Warden Archer; electric shock may be okay for aoe but the warden archer lacks an at will for single target damage - and falls way behind warden melee x2 damage feat. Please consider this feat and issue of single target.
Aspect of the Pack; this is currently not of any use, please provide rangers with a combat advantage option similar to pre mod 16 or link it to temporary CA after a power use for x amount of time.
Flexibility between Paragons; one idea is to allow rangers of both paragons to choose one power from the other Paragon path. This could replace aspect of the lone wolf e.g. 'jack of all trades'.
Let us know how extensive you are able and willing to rework Rangers. But I'm going to assume you're all short on time for Mod19 changes. Thus, i'll reiterate the most pressing issues involving pure archers (no melee) that can be changed and tested on the fly.
But just 3 things you need to remember:
Mobs aren't Test Dummies.
Most content in NW are solo.
The 1%-5% min-max feedback with 150k-200k power do not apply to the majority
Most newb-intermediate level 80s have to go through 18 campaigns, solo mobs and have access to 60k-90k power (at most).
They need roots, bonus damage vs roots, better rotation (cooldown, not necessarily damage) and certainly don't just melt mobs unlike other overpowered classes at the same item and power level.
Hunter Archer:
The damage of the Hunter Archer already exceed those of my Warden Archer while testing it with my Warden Archer sets. My Warden Archer build is already as efficient as it could possibly go. So to exceed the damage without using special pre-built gears and sets means the damage is already at the minimum decent.
But the trouble is Rotation. Marauder's Escape's cooldown is too high for any decent or acceptable rotation. It's always short 3-4 seconds when I needed to 'escape' from the clutches of mobs.
Marader's Escape
Cooldown - ~13.9s > ~10 s
Damage - 420 > 350
Split Shot
Damage - 40-80 > 50 -100
Warden Archer:
Single targets: Warden is good at AOE but extremely weak vs. single targets. While we have 2 decent single targets encounters: Constricting + Binding Arrows, our single target at-will option is virtually nonexistant.
Now I heard the Hunters want our Binding Arrows too. As I've said in the other thread. If they really want Binding Arrows, just move it to the general pool and move Rain of Arrows to Warden and call it Rain of Lightning or Rain of Roots giving it lightning attack or bonus to roots as well as increasing the area.
We got Rapidshot with 0.4s cast / 50 magnitude with no bonus whatsoever. Give it 75 magnitude so it can be actually be useful at the bare minimum. Aimed shot (Hunter) on Preview with 1.4s cast / 200 magnitude is already strong. Now you are are changing it to 1s cast /200 magnitude (with all the Hunter feat bonuses) while Warden option is 0.4s / 50 magnitude?
Electric Shot is our go-to AOE at-will but it requires a slight damage buff from 40 magnitude to 60 magnitude.
Split the Sky Split the sky has high cast time, high cooldown and hits one target at a time for 120 magnitude. Make it hit multiple targets. The problem is Archers are being punished for double-dipping stance switching. Just turn it off / make it disappear when people switch stance so you can give it proper buff.
I'll go over the feats and other abilities if you time to rework those.
Ps (the trouble is the Archery rework by @amenar was supposed to be 2 - part affair. He did the low-hanging fruit first because animation / cast times will take significant resources and pegged it for later. He never got to part 2 because he left Cryptic. His replacement moved to Magic the Gathering so quickly. Meanwhile @noworries had to condense 3 trees to 2 for mod 16. The process eviscerated much of the advances @amenar did with the old Stormwarden.
While he did a good job with the new Warden Archer Lightning tree (really, big props to that for making a completely new build), it's not complete, it still needs tweaks that is not done since Mod 16. I used to complain Barbarians/Rogues had double/triple our single target at-will. Barbarians got a buff and now getting a 2nd buff???
For the Hunter Archer, I assume he ran out of time. That tree is literally a mish-mash frankenstein (no rhyme or reason or rotation, and I've used pure archer (no melee) since Ranger class launch, and my old build up to mod 15 was completely demolished).
The first change has to be to change "Longshot" Feat to be 50% more damage on Ranged Attacks, 50% less damage on Melee. This will create a clear delineation between ranged and melee in the paragon and allow the Ranged powers to be balanced after with tweeks to magnitude to ensure it is not overperforming.
Any changes to magnitudes and cooldowns in my opinion are premature before a change like this is implemented, it is a simple sweeping change that will close the gap between the Warden Melee and a viable Ranged build. Do encounter powers need to be swapped between paragons or other adjustments to improve DoT etc, sure, but this is the lowest hanging fruit, one change like this makes our mainhand and Ranged dps viable.
If that's too hard to design then ditch the melee powers, turn the offhand into a quiver and call it a ranged/archer class. Rogues already exist; melee-oriented Rangers are pointless.
Warden:
- Focused should be increased back to 25%. I think on the preview server we are quite a bit behind barbarians, slightly behind assassin and dreadnought.
- Deft strikes should be a 20% buff. It is more difficult to use than focused, and 10% is not a good enough incentive to steer players away from its competitor.
- Swiftness feat: Change from 1 second to 1.5 seconds, and 0.5 seconds on cordon/hindering to 1 second. Will bring more parity with storms recovery.
- Skirmishers gambit: The nerf to 25% crit severity is definitely fair, but -10,000 crit is a bit harsh. Perhaps -7,500?
- To the wind: This is hard to make effective. Reduce defense penalty to -7,500, but give a 7.5% bonus to damage. This will make it more of a competitor with Skirmishers Gambit.
- Aspect of the Serpent: Change the stacks to 3% damage from 2%
- Split the sky: I'm not sure how fast to make this, but a slightly faster cast speed (maybe 0.25 seconds) and more hits/magnitude (25 more per hit perhaps).
- Electric shot to 60 magnitude. It cannot currently complete with storm strike for ST.
Hunter:
- Rate of Change: 10% is not good enough to compete with longshot feat. This feat is clunky to use. Perhaps 20% to start, down 4% per second.
- Thorned Roots: Should be 150 magnitude on CC immune targets (bosses) to increase effectiveness.
- Biting Snares: I think 2.5% up from 1% would allow smoother rotations.
- Forest Bond: My suggestion is 20% on SGR and TGR, 10% on WGR
- Slashers Expertise: This costs 1000 AP vs DS's 250 AP. This feat needs to be made competitive with More Than Disruptive, or have its cost reduced to 500 AP.
Thank you for your efforts.
- Neko
I don't care what their "design goals" are; the only goal that matters is "does it work?". If they're not going to do it right they should save their time and leave it as is until they do have time to do so.
Trapper does deserve some love as well, they question is do we have time...
The problem with the ranger is that any play that involves our main-hand weapon under-performs by 25-50%, even with the current changes on preview. then you add the fact that the ranger is now near the back of the pack when it comes to single target damage (even with our "best" loadout), and you have a recipe for discontent and strife in the community.
When we talk about viability of a class, that is really a question of "if I bring just this to a run, can we finish?" bring an 6 hunter paragon rangers to Tomm or zariel, with 2 healers and 2 tanks, and you will not be finishing that content... but go into rtq with the same, and you will probably be fine.
Rangers should be the class with the most versatility in this game, with the most options for games play, and they do if all you care about is leveling from 0 to 80... but once you are actually doing "MMO" content, they are some of the least versatile, with lots of choice illusions.
There have been a bunch of great suggestions to fix some of these issues by several folks including @hastur905 ... until some of these things are implemented this will continue to be a source of discontent.
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> Following feedback is from a friend whom i agree with, i'm just reposting here to insure visibility :
>
> Hello @joebot#9387,
>
> My namma Sume and I'm known by many for playing as well as making guide videos on the class Ranger. I finally decided to break my forum silence .........
I totally agree with Sume , he said almost everything I was thinking lol. Especially giving the Warden back it’s 5%s to skirmishers gambit and focused (although the % seems small , it has probably been one of the most felt balancing nerfs that’s happened to the Ranger.) I Also have a stance switching Warden and I feel Sumes also correct that Def strike and serpent need to go up. I also have a Hunter for single Targets and have completed Tomm with it many times. My view on the Hunter,... it has the damage, I often in group with combat advantage and crits hit encounters at 1.3 mil... , Buuuut it’s output speed is too slow . Reducing the cooldowns of all the powerful bow encounters by a few seconds may help the single target Hunter a lot. And honestly this may be pushing it but I think Aimed shot needs to be put down to .8 sec and have the animation not lock you into the shot so you can use encounters easier.
But I know you guys have a lot on your plate so even just giving us wardens back our 5%s to focused and Skirmishers gambit will make me very very happy.
I completely agree with Sume.
Warden needs it’s 5%s to focused and skirmishers gambit restored, the %s may seem small but I think I felt it the most out all the Rangers losses.
For the stance switcher I also believe serpent and defstrike % should go up.
I only use a Hunter for single targets. It has amazing dmg, it just can’t output it very fast.
The Hunter should have all major magnitude encounter cooldowns reduced several seconds . Careful attacks magnitude brought up,.. And this may be pushing it but I feel like Aimed shot should be reduced to 0.8 secs and have the animation not so locked in so it’s easier to use encounters.
I know you guys have a lot on your plate so I’d just be happy with the warden getting it’s % back to gambit and focused though, because as it is it’s very hard to keep up with the other balances classes now.
Doesn't the idea that a build that uses melee and ranged powers, given that cooldowns exist, will allegedly underperform one that uses only melee sound not just suspicious, but actually insane? Wouldn't such a case indicate that the designers have completely screwed the pooch?
As far as I can tell no one can finish that content, unless of course they don't need to. The going requirement for supposed "endgame content" is capped stats; if you don't have them no one wants you on their team. But if your stats are capped then really, why would you bother? Nothing will drop there that is an improvement for you -- by definition. This seems to be the pattern that's held for the last several years' worth of modules. People don't bother with the upper-tier instances until they can overpower them.
Little digression here.
I don't know if you were around for Cryptic's previous effort, City of Heroes. City's big "endgame raid" was a fight against a giant blob monster called the Hamidon. Well after Cryptic split into two studios (Cryptic went with Champions Online et al; Paragon Studios stayed with City) the devs made an admission: they were never able to defeat the Hamidon in-house. They just threw the content out there with no idea how the players were supposed to win. The strategy the players eventually settled on, involving finessing state changes during the battle, was one they'd never even considered.
Everything I'm seeing suggests we're in the same situation here. The devs don't actually have the chops, in terms of mathematical skill, to design this stuff with any degree of subtlety or nuance. They just throw the kitchen sink at the players (one-shot kills, control effect spam, etc.) and trust the players will find some way to work around or, more hopefully from their perspective, pay to boost their enchants and whatnot to the max and power through it.
So I really don't care about whether or not an all-Ranger DPS wing can clear ToMM or anything else, because by accident or design that content is completely uninteresting.
This is the only content anyone should actually care about.
On my Melee Warden ,say in Tomm those % losses to skirmishers gambit and focused actually costed me around 30 -40 million less in final dmg scores, while the other stronger balanced classes with less power have a 80-100 mil+ more total dmg than the Rangers. Don’t let that statement seem like I’m complaining about the other classes, I’m not. and I think asking for too many changes at once may end up causing confusion and chaos lol .I just would really really really like my Melee Wardens focused and skirmishers gambits 5%s restored, and my Hunter and Stance switching warden just to be able to almost keep up with my Melee Warden without lowering the melee wardens Dmg output any further.
I’ll restate I believe the Warden simply needs its 5%s back to focused and skirmishers gambit , for the stance switching warden defstrikeand serpent % needs to be raised and the Hunter still needs a faster output, faster cooldowns and faster stronger atwills to keep up with the melee warden at least on single targets.
Plant growth/cordon is completely broken.. by which I mean its not worth using,at all but as an aoe with roots that used to be a must have encounter, it should be looked at.
Biting snares at 1% is definitely not enough. And the magnitude of thorned roots could do with an upgrade too.
Longstriders could do with getting some sort of debuff/buff back
Aspect of the pack could be made better by either going back to how it was or if it's possible pulling the CA section to face the ranger (no idea if that could even work)
The numbers I'll leave to people better at it than I am
But I just wanted to point out that the trapper style ranger is consistently doing about half the damage of any other well made DPS build.
I did 150 mil damage in a 40 min run, he did 55 mil
He's only ever run as a hunter, I always run as warden and this is a typical run between the two of us.
That's the state of play atm where a 170k warden can do triple the damage of a 185k power hunter archer