The Infernal Citadel another BIS only Asset flip

mynaam · February 2020

So after doing The Infernal Citadel a few times this is my opinion about this BIS only dungeon:

Boring Content:
IC now takes over the Mantle from the part in fbi between 1st and second boss. the section between start and 1st boss is the most boring part i have ever seen in any game. you melt a small group then reach a gate , a small group then reach a gate, a small group then reach a gate,etc

Asset Flip
The bosses are no better. They are just repeated (asset flip) old content like from ECC,CR,MC,FBI. Their solution is just make them hit harder. sigh bis only.

"Not Meant For Everyone"
The bosses repeatedly hit for 1mil+ that means the vast majority of the player base fall under the quote from the Community manager. So for those that cannot survive a 1 mil hit 3+ times in a row you are stuck playing he's till next mod.

Summary
I really cannot see why certain players are more important than others. Why exclusion tactics are the new norm. why the minority get to oppress the majority. This is really the WORST dungeon this game has released to date.

EDIT:

Get ready for more of this(player name removed to prevent shaming .. replaced by EDIT word):

[Pro PlaYeR LfG...]EDIT@EDIT: lf2m Citadel (heal, dps) exp speed runs

This is less than 24h after the dungeon was released EXPERIENCE only is the norm!

2nd EDIT:

Oh forgot they neglected to ad a fire place before 1st boss.... this means you have to take on those boooring mobs with the many gates using your BOSS loadout. so aoe on a boss loadout. That makes no sense

tom · February 2020

Its pretty logical, to have the new endgame dungeon be aimed at veteran players. They have already played all the other dungeons, for a new player eLoL or Valindras Tower are just as new as the infernal citadel. Once the devs fix the gear progression in this game, it hopefully will make sense to progress trough all those dungeons again.
But, may i ask why you seem to hate everyone that has good gear in this game?
And come one, a channel named "Pro Player lfg"? What did you expect when you joined that lol.

mynaam · February 2020

tom#6998 said:
Its pretty logical, to have the new endgame dungeon be aimed at veteran players. They have already played all the other dungeons, for a new player eLoL or Valindras Tower are just as new as the infernal citadel. Once the devs fix the gear progression in this game, it hopefully will make sense to progress trough all those dungeons again.

But, may i ask why you seem to hate everyone that has good gear in this game?

And come one, a channel named "Pro Player lfg"? What did you expect when you joined that lol.

If you do that you have to have content for the non "veteran" players that are the vast majority. HE's for 3-4 months following me's for 6+months is not a good way to keep players in long run.

As for "hate everyone that has good gear" i have good gear .. infact great gear. i find this dungeon fairly easy. But why have those not as fortunate as me run ME's and HE's for 1 year (that is what the tomm disaster and IC will lead too). Catering for 1% of players and ignoring 99% is not smart.

As for the "Pro Player lfg" .. That same player posted same message in PE lfg. I just copied first post he/she did

This is from PE chat .. less than 24h after unlock for most:

[Looking For Group] EDIT@EDIT: lf1m for tic need tank exp

This is a massive problem that will only get worst if devs only listen to BIS only players. They should play the game on live (NOT IN BIS ONLY GROUPS as EP admitted to doing) and they will soon see the danger that is happening and getting worst every mod

tassedethe13 · February 2020

[todelete]

micky1p00 · February 2020

There were people looking for experienced people to run ToS, when that was the easiest dungeon and one could do it with their eyes closed.
There were people looking for exp for cloak tower. For skirmishes. For bank heist, for everything. That's not new, this is why guilds thrive, because people are hamsters in the wild. So what new?

Per habit the nice skew of facts again btw. You complain about "BiS" but your examples are about someone looking for "experienced", do you understand the difference between the two?

You are geared? You find it easy? Make a group that doesn't requires "exp" and help others to learn it.

tom · February 2020

if you hate it so much @mynaam why are you running it? I thought its "the worst dungeon ever"?

Unknown · February 2020

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mynaam · February 2020

micky1p00 said:
There were people looking for experienced people to run ToS, when that was the easiest dungeon and one could do it with their eyes closed.
There were people looking for exp for cloak tower. For skirmishes. For bank heist, for everything. That's not new, this is why guilds thrive, because people are hamsters in the wild. So what new?

Per habit the nice skew of facts again btw. You complain about "BiS" but your examples are about someone looking for "experienced", do you understand the difference between the two?

You are geared? You find it easy? Make a group that doesn't requires "exp" and help others to learn it.

I complain about content only only for BIS players and none for non bis players do not twist my words. The fact is For more than a year non bis players have had 0 content. many can't even do lomm and the BIS get fed and rest stepped on.

Don't worry, we'll get to run that dungeon in about 2 years after they make more unplayable content for us.

This is a comment i took from another forum Does this sound like a healthy situation (I did not write this)

I make my groups.

tom#6998 said:
if you hate it so much @mynaam why are you running it? I thought its "the worst dungeon ever"?

Easy question. There are NOTHING else to do in this game the events are 5+ years old or just boooring after 10 minutes and i have done the rest to death. I also try and help the non bis players where is can Elitism is just plain wrong.

I must say the first time i succeeded in ic we had a great tank he took the time to explain the mechanics before every fight so not all are bad. Also i never said BIS should not get content, what i said is non bis should get content also! Devs favoring your friends and only giving them content is a bad thing

magdalena#1708 said:
The dungeon is not asset flip.
Not the mobs, not the maps, not the Bosses.
All Bosses have their own lore and mechanics.
Second Boss fight is epic.
Beautiful dungeon , good gameplay.
.
About BiS- TIC it is not BiS.
Everybody that reads- make a party , do not give up.
.

Have you ever played CR. The 2nd boss is combo of 1st and 2nd boss there.

They repeat the break casket from MC (now just spore)
Or the Hand grab from VT (now just imps)
You have a rip off of the first boss in FBI in this 1st boss it is just a repeat of same old stuff with fresh paint
Portals From CN etc etc etc

Unknown · February 2020

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mynaam · February 2020

magdalena#1708 said:
No, I joined yesterday, thank you for asking.
What exactly is that combo because I see no resemblance.
So the Manticore is the same fight as the Bone Devil, right?
And destroying something harmful is proper to do only 1 time in history. It does not matter what is the harmful object, is a copy, do not do it.
Of course there are portals , Vallenhas is not in Hell yet, devils and demons have to come from another plane. They can not use cars.
.

Oh welcome you will like this game we need new players

CR 2nd boss have 4 pillars this boss have 4 pillar, cr you hide behind 4 pillars here you hide behind pillars . 1st boss in cr the floor fill with damaging circles here it fills with damaging circles cr 2nd boss is a dps race here 2nd boss is dps race same thing just different paint

And we are supposed to be in avernus that is where the infernal Citadel is . I know in game it is not clear but that is where it is in the lore it is in HELL the 1st layer

EDIT. I found it funny to see trees growing in hell

micky1p00 · February 2020

mynaam said:

I complain about content only only for BIS players and none for non bis players do not twist my words.

So that's an example of players looking for only BiS:

mynaam said:

[Pro PlaYeR LfG...]EDIT@EDIT: lf2m Citadel (heal, dps) exp speed runs

This is less than 24h after the dungeon was released EXPERIENCE only is the norm!

Sorry, but that's not a BiS only dungeon, and that is not a player looking for item level or BiS.

mynaam said:

The fact is For more than a year non bis players have had 0 content. many can't even do lomm and the BIS get fed and rest stepped on.

Let me understand this, so many (I don't know what many is that, I'm in an alliance full of new people and everyone runs lomm),
but still lets say many didn't run LoMM yet, is LoMM is 0 content. They never ran it, it's pristine new to them. Or if a person can't do LoMM with all the free ME gear, and all the Juma stuff, then what new content you demand for them? More leveling quests? Maybe some fetch quests in helms hold?

mynaam said:

Don't worry, we'll get to run that dungeon in about 2 years after they make more unplayable content for us.
This is a comment i took from another forum Does this sound like a healthy situation (I did not write this)

If a chooses not to progress, they may not leave the leveling zone for 6 years. So? The tools are here, A person can get extremely well off just with Juma bags, and MEs. Or should everything be granted for free, and all new content should doable naked.

MMO is about progress, what is not new to you now, is new to someone who still didn't do it. You don't redo episode one 10 times. You add episode 2, 3, 4, 5 so people can progress. And release new episodes as you can so everyone keep watching the show.

mynaam said:

I make my groups.

I saw your group just now, 0 people from your guild (except you), and everyone higher IL than me.
So who is the one makes it exclusionary?

mynaam said:
So after doing The Infernal Citadel a few times this is my opinion about this BIS only dungeon:

BTW, if it's BiS only, should we assume you are BiS?

Unknown · February 2020

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micky1p00 · February 2020

mynaam said:

"Don't worry, we'll get to run that dungeon in about 2 years after they make more unplayable content for us."

This is a comment i took from another forum Does this sound like a healthy situation (I did not write this)

That's the spirit you push towards in every community you are part of.

Instead of helping people to achieve something, you encourage whining and quieting. By your testament "Many people didn't complete LoMM"? If I would see someone like that, I'll grab them by the ears and put through LoMM, if they want it or not.
Not go on the forums and complain. And if there is new content, we sit and do it until we can do it, because that's the point of team work, and community (at least to the best of our ability)

Took me half year, but everyone who wanted, finished ToMM in my guild.

nooneatza · February 2020

Just for the sake of the discussion. In m14 people were complaining everything was for bis players only (cr, codg, tong came before)
So the devs added acq. inc., a full campaign dedicated to new players, with an equally easy skirmish.
May i ask, why was that campaign so hated ?

jaggid · February 2020

I had stopped playing for a few years, due to not having enough time to really play, and just returned at the start of the year. I say this to show that I am NOT one of the players the new dungeon is aimed at.

And I gotta say, OP, your complaint makes no sense. New content should, mostly, be designed as something for folks who have done everything else....it just makes sense; those that haven't done everything else have plenty of other things they can do.

ecrana · February 2020

mynaam said:
The fact is For more than a year non bis players have had 0 content. many can't even do lomm and the BIS get fed and rest stepped on.

I'm not even going to bother reading most of your statements. This right here sums up the level of thought put into your arguments.

If a player can't do LoMM, why would they, or should they, even be attempting to do IC?

Do you comprehend progression? Your arguments are always the same.

Oh no, this new shiny thing is only for endgamers, what should the rest of the players do? Oh wait, the rest can't even beat LoMM yet but what should they do? I know, let's not beat the old content and build up our toons. Instead, let's argue that the new content isn't for us?

Maybe work on beating the content in the order of progression that has been laid out?

genadine · February 2020

ToMM was supposed to be for the very best amongst the player base, they even beta tested it so it fit them perfectly, now they do the self same thing again for M18.

Neverwinter has 3 types of player;

1. The new ones they come they like they spend cash
2. The Elite Veterans they whine there is nothing, beta test to suit themselves and never spend a dime
3. The rest and all we get is ..!..

Devs need to stop catering for the .5% loudmouths who don't help others only themselves, let them go lose them they wont be missed, make content for the majority not the minority and the game will live.

Inclusive not Exclusive.

mynaam · February 2020

magdalena#1708 said:
It was sarcasm.
I guess we should make every building with aleatory numbers of walls and pillars. 4 is just assetflip.
If you hide behind them is old, if you hide in a small safe place is old, if you hide in a magical shield is old.
Do not hide.
AoE damage is old, target damage is old. Does not even matter that every damage has a cause , a reason and a special effect.
TIC is above Avernus, devils use portals.
Making babies is old too, just assetflip at its best.
.

So you cannot understand sarcasm when it comes back at you lol

So what you are saying is

That in a mod with a map called Avernus we never go to Avernus(even on that map)?
The fact that the zone is in the avernus map means it is not in avernus.
Same with the dungeon based on that zone ?
That is just proving my point This mod has some serious faults including IC

mynaam · February 2020

ecrana#2080 said:

mynaam said:
The fact is For more than a year non bis players have had 0 content. many can't even do lomm and the BIS get fed and rest stepped on.
I'm not even going to bother reading most of your statements. This right here sums up the level of thought put into your arguments.

If a player can't do LoMM, why would they, or should they, even be attempting to do IC?

Do you comprehend progression? Your arguments are always the same.

Oh no, this new shiny thing is only for endgamers, what should the rest of the players do? Oh wait, the rest can't even beat LoMM yet but what should they do? I know, let's not beat the old content and build up our toons. Instead, let's argue that the new content isn't for us?

Maybe work on beating the content in the order of progression that has been laid out?

So you do not even know what i am talking about and just comment on the bit you like to read?

Let me sum it up for you.

There is a bis and normal player divide.
This means Most players cannot even do most dungeons due to the devs ignoring them.
I can bet 50%+ of level 80 players have not won CR yet(Years old dungeon !!!!!). That is due to neglect.

Stating that devs should neglect non bis players and only care about load BIS few just proves my point!

micky1p00 · February 2020

genadine#7803 said:

Neverwinter has 3 types of player;

1. The new ones they come they like they spend cash
2. The Elite Veterans they whine there is nothing, beta test to suit themselves and never spend a dime
3. The rest and all we get is ..!..

Devs need to stop catering for the .5% loudmouths who don't help others only themselves, let them go lose them they wont be missed, make content for the majority not the minority and the game will live.

Inclusive not Exclusive.

I only see one type of people that whine here. I also see that those same type of people are those that do not help others.
How is that possible that the same person, the OP, claims that there are so many players who didn't finish LoMM? And at the same time forms a BiS groups to easily run Citadel.

Is there no end to hypocrisy? How it is possible that such a person can't form a group and help people gear up and learn to do LoMM?

Consider for a moment, that the Devs actually do content for the majority, they do a normal progress path. Maybe, just maybe, there are plenty of people who are trying and running Citadel now, and those that do not understand how MMORPG progression works and whine about it, are a 0.5% loudmouth minority.

wilbur626 · February 2020

@mynaam : Has there ever been easier to farm for gear progression than after M16 launch ? M18 made it even easier with the introduction of Juma and heroic farming. If players are doing what they are supposed to (farm gear, comp gear, comp upgrade tokens, wards, enchanting stones, marks and even mounts) they will have no problem achieving needed stats for latest content.

hustin1 · February 2020

IMO the problem is that way too many dungeons rely on DPS checks, and you need BIS players to make it past those checks. There are no alternative playstyles for beating that content.

thefabricant · February 2020

The way you go on and on about this topic @mynaam I would swear you were part of some Neverwinter Activist group. Maybe you should start one, I can even recommend a name, the "Economic Freedom Fighters." You fight against the BiS players, making sure to expropriate any content not aimed at the casual player without compensation directly into the hands of the poor, underprivileged casual. Make sure to include some songs like, "kill the bis."

akemnos · February 2020

lets make one thing clear here. Experienced and BIS are not even close to the same thing so I am not sure why the original post is so hyped up on people asking for Experienced people. That exact same thing has happened in every single mod since the game was released. Those people are just concerned with running it as fast as possible and having others who have completed it makes it easier for them.

If you dont like that mindset then dont run with them and form your own team.

Now i haven't had a chance to run the dungeon yet but i am expecting to maybe run it with my guild this weekend. While i am at the necessary stat caps i am no where near BIS. Do i expect difficulties running the dungeon, of course, due i expect that might be some wipes as we learn? Sure.

do i expect to be locked out of the content entirely because i am not BIS in all my slots - no. That is not required.

If people are unable to run older content such as LOMM then why would they expect to be able to run newer more difficult content successfully? What they should be doing is trying to figure out why they cannot run LOMM and working on fixing that first. Once that is done then it by default will become much easier to run the newer content.

aerhythia · February 2020

wilbur626 said:
@mynaam : Has there ever been easier to farm for gear progression than after M16 launch ? M18 made it even easier with the introduction of Juma and heroic farming. If players are doing what they are supposed to (farm gear, comp gear, comp upgrade tokens, wards, enchanting stones, marks and even mounts) they will have no problem achieving needed stats for latest content.

Don't know if doing chores is more rewarding then in previous mods. What would be better is when you could also progress your character from running dungeons. "Run Valindra since it's a new dungeon for a new player" sums up the entire problem. And when a dungeon like Citadel launches the problem only becomes more evident.

tom#6998 said:
Once the devs fix the gear progression in this game, it hopefully will make sense to progress trough all those dungeons again.

They didn't do anything like that in Mod 15, 16, 17 and 18 unfortunately. At least they seem to have acknowledged the problem now.

ecrana · February 2020

mynaam said:
So you do not even know what i am talking about and just comment on the bit you like to read?

Let me sum it up for you.

There is a bis and normal player divide.
This means Most players cannot even do most dungeons due to the devs ignoring them.
I can bet 50%+ of level 80 players have not won CR yet(Years old dungeon !!!!!). That is due to neglect.

Stating that devs should neglect non bis players and only care about load BIS few just proves my point!

There should be a BiS and normal player divide. They're in two different phases of the game. To pretend they're alike and should have access to the exact same content is ridiculous. And nowhere have I ever argued that content shouldn't be made for all players. The point here is that there is content for newer players to work on until they can do the latest content. It's called everything up to M18.

Don't act like there's nothing available a player thats only been here for 3-6 months. If someone has some deep anxiety because they have to do A, B & C before they can access D that's their problem.

18 mods of content for the newer players to run but here you are, a vet player, acting as if you're the voice of the new player.

I can also bet that a good part of those 50% you claim can't beat CR yet are unable to beat it due to their own issues not dev issues.

Your arguments are nonsense. Your initial statements are completely biased nonsense. Your 50% CR statistic is fabricated out of thin air nonsense. You are spewing a ton of nonsense and it's just the same old drumroll you've been beating for ages. We all get it. BiS = eeeeeevvvvvvil. Majority = abused plaeyrbase that gets nothing ever ever ever given to them (except for every single mod created that was a cakewalk).

And I did read your entire post. I wouldn't have been able to pick out the one statement of yours that was worth a rebuttal if I hadn't read through all the drivel.

I was being flippant in pointing out that nothing you said had any merit.

Let me get just my post ready for the Mod 19 dungeon..... {in before mynaam is complaining that newer players can't run 28k IL locked content]

jules · February 2020

ecrana#2080 said:

I can also bet that a good part of those 50% you claim can't beat CR yet are unable to beat it due to their own issues not dev issues.

This. This also extends to me, to some extent, because if I cannot run/do not run a dungeon due to my own circumstances, how can I expect the game (or other players) to make up for it for me?

I think everybody that does not consider themselves able to run the latest content due to whatever reason should consider that there are plenty others that can do so just fine. I know relatively new players that hitch dungeon rides and carry their own weight just fine (I heard) in Tong/Codg/CR/Lomm and will do well in IC too, and the only reason that others are not is because of themselves (me included).
In assuming that giving the game a new goal to work towards every other mod (AI ... yeah not so much) is somehow an issue now one would also accept ruining the game for many many others that seemingly have no issue whatsoever with this course.
I mean: Whatever the issues are, and no matter how valid they might be; it's not a reason to take the fun somebody else has from running new "challenging" content (as we know, you can just give it 2-3 weeks to take off the first edge, like with the mimics: When people know what to expect they can also start considering carrying/doing training runs, whatever) away from them to fit one's own very personal dream of this game.

As always, with new dungeons: Find a group if you can carry your own weight (and, yeah, you can do that without meeting IC stats at all) or wait until the edge is off to find a group that can help you carry your weight. Or, if you can't stomach running it, don't run it.
There is plenty other options to make a profit in the game. It doesn't have to be the newest dungeon.

And, for the BIS issue: Pls go and watch some of the groups for dungeons and how away from BIS they are. There are M16-new-players running IC.
If you cannot run it, or rather would not run it, it doesn't automatically have to be the same way for other players. (Often, new players are bolder than some casual vets in asking for runs/groups and get to the cake faster. Whose problem is that, tho?)

Unknown · February 2020

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wintersmoke · February 2020

ecrana#2080 said:

mynaam said:
So you do not even know what i am talking about and just comment on the bit you like to read?

Let me sum it up for you.

There is a bis and normal player divide.
This means Most players cannot even do most dungeons due to the devs ignoring them.
I can bet 50%+ of level 80 players have not won CR yet(Years old dungeon !!!!!). That is due to neglect.

Stating that devs should neglect non bis players and only care about load BIS few just proves my point!
There should be a BiS and normal player divide. They're in two different phases of the game. To pretend they're alike and should have access to the exact same content is ridiculous. And nowhere have I ever argued that content shouldn't be made for all players. The point here is that there is content for newer players to work on until they can do the latest content. It's called everything up to M18.

Don't act like there's nothing available a player thats only been here for 3-6 months. If someone has some deep anxiety because they have to do A, B & C before they can access D that's their problem.

18 mods of content for the newer players to run but here you are, a vet player, acting as if you're the voice of the new player.

I can also bet that a good part of those 50% you claim can't beat CR yet are unable to beat it due to their own issues not dev issues.

Your arguments are nonsense. Your initial statements are completely biased nonsense. Your 50% CR statistic is fabricated out of thin air nonsense. You are spewing a ton of nonsense and it's just the same old drumroll you've been beating for ages. We all get it. BiS = eeeeeevvvvvvil. Majority = abused plaeyrbase that gets nothing ever ever ever given to them (except for every single mod created that was a cakewalk).

And I did read your entire post. I wouldn't have been able to pick out the one statement of yours that was worth a rebuttal if I hadn't read through all the drivel.

I was being flippant in pointing out that nothing you said had any merit.

Let me get just my post ready for the Mod 19 dungeon..... {in before mynaam is complaining that newer players can't run 28k IL locked content]

Every single mod (with the exception of AI) is aimed at the BIS players. None of the dungeons is a cake-walk when they are released. They only become so after the fact because of power creep.

plasticbat · February 2020

The latest content should always be the hardest.
New player played the older and easier content and then progress to the tougher one.
I cannot do the toughest one neither but one day, I hope I can. It can be sooner or later. I pace my own progression.
If I can do the latest without my own progression, what is my point playing this game?
What is the challenge?
I play the game for the challenge (which has been less and less) and not be a tourist coming to Disney to do the tea pot ride.
As others said, every dungeon from every mod (not AI though and that was the reason it was a big failure) was the toughest one when it came out.

thany · February 2020

plasticbat said:
The latest content should always be the hardest.
New player played the older and easier content and then progress to the tougher one.
I cannot do the toughest one neither but one day, I hope I can. It can be sooner or later. I pace my own progression.
If I can do the latest without my own progression, what is my point playing this game?
What is the challenge?
I play the game for the challenge (which has been less and less) and not be a tourist coming to Disney to do the tea pot ride.
As others said, every dungeon from every mod (not AI though and that was the reason it was a big failure) was the toughest one when it came out.

True, but good luck with that - "one day, I hope i can". Well, maybe, when modul 27 arrives you'll finish this content.
Or you can buy zen, and well... Something is really "fishy" here lately. Anyway, fishy or not, it'll be nice to play without this huge lag/rubber/redirecting and all what we get. Or give us some "european" servers.

The Infernal Citadel another BIS only Asset flip

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