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pug guide to roles
mrbogus
Member Posts: 12 Arc User
Any class: LEARN THE DUNGEON! If your first time in a certain one then SAY SO AT THE START! Otherwise there are videos on Youtube!
Tank - to take/soak damage from everything as much as possible. It's usually impossible to take agro from everything in a dungeon, but at least try and block damage.
Important stats - hp, defense, awareness, INCOMING HEALING*, stamina regeneration, deflect, crit avoid, then anything else. Capping armor penetration helps to keep agro.
*it does no good to have a ton of hp and no incoming healing %!!!
DPS - to deal damage, buff the team (if able), and to REZ THOSE IN NEED (tank and healer shouldn't have to**).
Important stats - Armor penetration, critical strike, accuracy, combat advantage, crit severity, power, then everything else stating with defense.
**the tank has more to deal with, and the healer should be on guard to heal; also has way more to deal with.
Healer - to keep the tank and self alive, and anyone else if able. Why just that? The tank and healer are the 2 keys to success most often. Of coarse, help where else able.
Important stats - power, crit strike***, outgoing healing, defense, hp, armor penetration (depending on class this might differ as important), all other defensive stats (but the first 3 are the most important).
***it's best to have 1.25 x your power in crit strike (100k power means 125k crit).
If you need heals, then heal yourself, unless the healer is healing you just fine! So often a healer is blamed for not healing someone so far out of range, or has no incoming heal %. Even healers use a HP stone here and there, since their heals aren't unlimited by some factor. My favorite lately is a dps complaining about no heals in RTQ, yet is WAY out of range and has -25% incoming healing.
If you're a tank, then you should be able to hold agro on a boss, and block enough for the healer not to panic (HAMSTER happens though).
If you're a healer, don't waste your heals on someone with -25% incoming healing, especially if the tank needs attention.
I decided to write this after a hellish night as a healer (testing pug queue). It may seem bias, but it's just truth. I've played all roles at one time or another to say I know enough.
the night: RTQ pug = CoDG fail to new players not listening
RTQ pug - repeat
REQ pug - CR fail, but most of the team listened and did well. The tank disconnected so we decided to abandon
REQ pug - FBI I quit and took 30min lockout since the team was rude, the pally tank had -25% incoming healing (NO excuse for that!), and I was tanking as a healer SW.
RTQ pug - entered abandoned CoDG, left
RTQ pug - entered Tia run who knows how far along, but saw in raid chat "WTF is going on?" and 2 party slots open; left instantly.
RTQ pug - Demo success! A bit chaotic, and people opening portals for no reason, but success. Some dps was asleep first round. 1 dps complained about lack of heals, when they had -25% incoming, and didn't understand the healer classes at all (or the stuns/ can't heal when we're dead).
REQ pug - CN success! Most of the group knew their roles and didn't complain. 1 person didn't self heal ever, so I let him die a few times (can only have so many sparks to waste). Even I used a hp stone a couple times!
~end rant/advice
EDIT: the best utility slot enchantment by far is Tactical (azure if below lvl75). Dark adds far too little, and any that drop bags etc are junk (even as a FtP player).
Tank - to take/soak damage from everything as much as possible. It's usually impossible to take agro from everything in a dungeon, but at least try and block damage.
Important stats - hp, defense, awareness, INCOMING HEALING*, stamina regeneration, deflect, crit avoid, then anything else. Capping armor penetration helps to keep agro.
*it does no good to have a ton of hp and no incoming healing %!!!
DPS - to deal damage, buff the team (if able), and to REZ THOSE IN NEED (tank and healer shouldn't have to**).
Important stats - Armor penetration, critical strike, accuracy, combat advantage, crit severity, power, then everything else stating with defense.
**the tank has more to deal with, and the healer should be on guard to heal; also has way more to deal with.
Healer - to keep the tank and self alive, and anyone else if able. Why just that? The tank and healer are the 2 keys to success most often. Of coarse, help where else able.
Important stats - power, crit strike***, outgoing healing, defense, hp, armor penetration (depending on class this might differ as important), all other defensive stats (but the first 3 are the most important).
***it's best to have 1.25 x your power in crit strike (100k power means 125k crit).
If you need heals, then heal yourself, unless the healer is healing you just fine! So often a healer is blamed for not healing someone so far out of range, or has no incoming heal %. Even healers use a HP stone here and there, since their heals aren't unlimited by some factor. My favorite lately is a dps complaining about no heals in RTQ, yet is WAY out of range and has -25% incoming healing.
If you're a tank, then you should be able to hold agro on a boss, and block enough for the healer not to panic (HAMSTER happens though).
If you're a healer, don't waste your heals on someone with -25% incoming healing, especially if the tank needs attention.
I decided to write this after a hellish night as a healer (testing pug queue). It may seem bias, but it's just truth. I've played all roles at one time or another to say I know enough.
the night: RTQ pug = CoDG fail to new players not listening
RTQ pug - repeat
REQ pug - CR fail, but most of the team listened and did well. The tank disconnected so we decided to abandon
REQ pug - FBI I quit and took 30min lockout since the team was rude, the pally tank had -25% incoming healing (NO excuse for that!), and I was tanking as a healer SW.
RTQ pug - entered abandoned CoDG, left
RTQ pug - entered Tia run who knows how far along, but saw in raid chat "WTF is going on?" and 2 party slots open; left instantly.
RTQ pug - Demo success! A bit chaotic, and people opening portals for no reason, but success. Some dps was asleep first round. 1 dps complained about lack of heals, when they had -25% incoming, and didn't understand the healer classes at all (or the stuns/ can't heal when we're dead).
REQ pug - CN success! Most of the group knew their roles and didn't complain. 1 person didn't self heal ever, so I let him die a few times (can only have so many sparks to waste). Even I used a hp stone a couple times!
~end rant/advice
EDIT: the best utility slot enchantment by far is Tactical (azure if below lvl75). Dark adds far too little, and any that drop bags etc are junk (even as a FtP player).
4
Comments
2: and what do you do when you're casting healing on the tank and the DPS moved out of range? Do you stop casting to go heal the one who's out of place? nope. Healers only have so much to use for resources AND range. They can't move while casting either. It's hardest to heal people who don't stay in range is on a pally though (they move like a rock). It doesn't take long to dodge your way back into the group. A good healer will not worry about the 1 DPS that doesn't know healer classes for the good of the group. It's also not their job to babysit (keep track of where everyone is if they're out of place).
3: I'm sure all healers know that since they also use pots and not just waste powers on themselves (at least they shouldn't most of the time). Once again it's up to the dps to be within the range to be healed, otherwise they can heal themselves and not complain.
4: I'm pretty sure that's what the OP was saying. DPS can usually stop to rez players much easier than a tank or healer.
When I go as a healer I don't even bother when someone has -25% incoming heals unless I absolutely can...because they obviously don't care about heals at all. In that case I'm usually on my pally, so those players will get heals if in range of the tank when the tank gets the shield refreshed. I'm sure they'll notice they get far less shield than other dps with + incoming heals %....not to mention next to nothing for missing hp healed.
On a final note, it's also up to the DPS to protect the healer when mobs spawn on bosses...unless the tank has it covered already. This usually applies more when the healer is either a warlock or cleric. A pally is melee type healer, thus can stay close to the tank to keep themselves healed along with the tank. It's still good to keep an eye on how often the pally need to self heal (depending on how well they're geared/how many mobs/how much damage they deal). In the end, DPS is most often the easiest role to play.
I ran Lomm and I have healed lomm since the 2nd week it was open for me in mod 16. I have ran it over 200 times at least. So I go in for REDQ and the bugs were rampant. Then someone scolded me for having 27% out going when I have ran the dungeon on 9% outgoing in the past. It's overrated. The issue was the "standing" bug. For those that don't know, the dps that gets trapped in the cocoon even if they get fully healed, if they all of a sudden stand up while still in the cocoon, you need to completely heal them again from 0% up to 100% health or they will die. So basically you need to completely heal them twice because of this bug.
Another bug we were experiencing was we could be attacking Arcturia but mimics were still coming down their paths. So half were attacking the boss the others were continuing to attack mimics. This was causing many golems to spawn and then once again one ignorant dps was wondering why I was unable to keep the tank alive and started complaining about me only having 27% outgoing healing. You can't heal anyone when there are 20 golems constantly bashing people. Doesn't matter if you had 150% outgoing you aren't going to survive that many golems when the boss still has 50% + health bar and probably another round of mimics coming.
The dungeon is also scaling so if you aren't self nerfing yourself by using "older" gear and insist on running newer gear, you basically cause more problems for the party. It is just another example of how the game has zero progression. Get new gear but it is only useful in new content. If you want to run older content you need to go back to old gear.
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1254235/rusted-iron-leggings-a-bad-design-choice-by-the-developers/p1
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1253458/m18-rewards/p2
PUG 2: queues as healer, actual role is DPS
PUG 3-5: might actually be DPS. Or bots...
You are trying to say a warlock, paladin or cleric on heal build actually go in but instead attempt to dps rather than heal? Sure that is possible but simply not the case. Mostly due the fact that their heal builds are far inferior to their dps builds. But even if it were true, so what? You wan't to force heal only as a possibility for a heal build? Because that would just cause no one to want to run it. It is incredibly boring if all your encounters are only healing.
I've also never seen any bots at all in randoms and I pug them all the time. So what are you even talking about?
As far as the tank going dps well they have a slightly better edge on this issue. It does not matter all that much for them.
I disagree with "The main dps is the tank in the majority of random runs.". Most often the tank has agro (though SOMETIMES your statement comes true). That's an unintended role switch, but also why I talk about tanks too. In that case I would direct my healing to you, at least until the supposed tank took agro.
"If the first dps died 90% it means tank and healer can not keep the party alive, the only chance we have is to kill the mobs before they kill us. So you failed already , if we stop - its wipe." is absolute HAMSTER and you know it. It's not up to the healer and tank for dps to avoid the heavy aoe damage. I play as dps too. Sometimes you just get into a bad place. It happens. I don't turn around and blame the healer or tank for it. That's why you have the ability to dodge (unless a glitched boss).
I think it's time you roll a healer to see the broader spectrum, but don't think so highly of yourself to think my post is about you. I talk about all 3 roles. There just happens to be more to say about dps since most often when someone is dead, the tank actually has agro, and the healer is busy keeping him alive, but the dps doesn't bother to go rez the other player. Tell me where I'm wrong in that case. Sure if I'm healing and someone died way closer to me than the rest of the team, I'll go rez them. Many times there's a barb (for example) hacking and slashing at a boss, someone died on the other side from where I was, and the barb just keeps hacking and slashing away.
@some1stolemynickname Thanks GP for your input. I know you know what I mean haha
@krumple01 Thanks for your input too. I didn't know about the cocoon bug, but I've only run lomm a few times. I've seen that mimic bug though. Luckily I was with my alliance on a run, so I didn't get blamed haha. As for bots, I've seen them often in the 2 lower runs, but never in RTQ or REDQ. I don't usually run those 2 anymore because of it.
I returned a few months ago after taking a long break from mod 14. It's as if players have forgotten how to find information, or don't bother to try, and completely negate role differences. The point of my post was to give an idea of how my night went, and set some general guidelines for roles. It's basically the best way to play as a team.
Will it always work? Of coarse not, but why not try? Maybe if players were directed to a general guideline of how to play their role they'd perform better.
How many times have you seen dps rush into a boss to hit before the tank has a chance to, then complain about the tank not taking agro? Just an example of poor judgement.
If they did make this an intended mechanic, it just proves my point again that cryptic is a terrible game designer. Why make "older" content more difficult for less or obsolete rewards? This standing issue was not present in the dungeon before but now that it's there, it makes the dungeon more difficult because players aren't even aware that it can happen. Only healers really know it occurs.
It's only that way because of what I've previously stated. I've completed it 3 times in random pug runs, so it IS possible.
The recent additions(LoMM, CR, CoDG) are problems mostly because people do not know the tactics. This will fix itself over time.
In most cases however, an unknowable character could be to a far extent helped by instructions in chat. So what really annoys me is people not reading, listening and responding to chat, in particular people that are obviously new to the zone.
I usually have a high threshold for kicking people, but not being able to communicate when needed = immediate kick.
If each player is doing their job correctly that should never happen.
Will say i pitty mrbogus must of been one hell of a night.
It hasn't been a year since Mod 16 dropped. I'd say the system is working fine, though the player base is slacking. I do believe that was the intent of this thread to begin with. Don't blame the devs or the game for players not playing the game correctly!
Somewhere between all or nothing really is where self healing is what the OP was talking about. Don't wait for heals if you're low on HP since they might be busy elsewhere. If I'm on one of my healers and I see someone sitting at 10% hp for 10 sec or more while the tank is in trouble, they won't get any special treatment from me. I need to use my Stone of Health once in a while, so why can't they?
If you do self heal, you're more likely to be accepted as someone worthy of healing, but only if you know where you should be in the first place.
Yesterday I was on my fighter as a tank for REDQ. The healer was really good, but the DPS was subpar at best. We got ECC...easy right? Well it's not easy to tank the last boss when the DPS lacks so badly that the room fills with fire before he even drops 1/4 hp of the bar.
The first try we had to pop the water 3x and got him down to about 1/3 HP before it was just the healer and I...we wiped to restart. 2nd try went a bit worse, since the DPS died off fast. Was it my fault or the healers? It was the fault of the DPS! One stood in the center of the fire burning til dead (derp or lag?), and the other 2 were at the opposite end of the room. The cleric left the run, followed by the 3 DPS. I stuck around waiting on reinforcements.
4 players joined...we started...the DPS was much better....the healer didn't heal at all. Luckily I had defensive encounters on or i would've been dead a few times (yes I had agro most of the time). I self healed through it.
What's the point of this story? You aren't the only one who doesn't always get a good healer, but a tank doing their job should be the healers priority. When I'm on my main (TR) I can survive by dodging and self healing here and there just fine. When I need heals I know where to be. I hardly play my main now since healers and tanks are always harder to get, and I like to help where I can. So why are the healers and tanks lacking to begin with? I'd say mainly due to players not playing their roles as noted by the OP. DPS is by far the easiest role to play, with a few exceptions. AMEN! Another person understands what he was getting at. It's just too bad I wasn't on to help him through that night.
I'm sorry if your definition differs from reality. Self heal just means healing yourself...doesn't matter the source.
"You are a healer not because that is all you do , but because it is what you do better."
Thanks for proving my point about your lack of knowledge on healer classes. I bet you didn't even know a paladin can AoE stun/a warlock can buff the team while debuffing mobs/a cleric can attack in between if the healing isn't drastic. It doesn't matter if the damage is less...it's still damage. I've even solo finished boss fights on my cleric and paladin many times....good thing the DPS was there!...oh wait....how'd the boss die if I was the only one left?
You don't understand the points being made by the OP...continue to make less of a case as you go on...I now just treat you as a troll.