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M18 Class Balance Adjustments

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  • devilxjkdevilxjk Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    Fighter, anvil of doom need a reduce vengeance cost, we must stop fight to often to take vengeance up
  • djnasty93djnasty93 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    as it is now top dmg of hunter its dot dmg from roots cause one 6% of crit severity its less than overall dmg of roots and for sure pray, predator 10% dmg on one target and distruptive shot for 10% dmg, i hate lower melee dmg, but in infernal citadel you need to hit hard with bot easily
  • rubytruerubytrue Member Posts: 475 Arc User
    Did rangers get a ninja nerf, especially to CotS?

    Enhanced conductivity now only procs (+50mag) on the Lightning Enhanced Weapon Strike (+30 mag lightning damage), and not on the rest of our attacks (Maybe its always been this way?) after activating CotS.

    Also, Nature's Envoy (after Forest Ghost) does not work on ranged at-wills.

    Would it be possible for Nature's Envoy and Blade Storm (and perhaps Twin Blade Storm) to work on archer builds?
  • djnasty93djnasty93 Member Posts: 145 Arc User
    Please take an eye on pvp when you increase 'Dc' dmg, Dc overperforming in pvp
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited December 2019

    djnasty93 said:

    Please take an eye on pvp when you increase 'Dc' dmg, Dc overperforming in pvp

    All powers should have a different magnitude if in pve or pvp to avoid insoluble balance headache. It has always been done with stats and control feats.
    Agreed, not to mention that some classes can give themselves CA over you which is an often underestimated advantage. Combined with the way critical severity is now multiplicative with combat advantage damage, 100% effective in pvp, and how most people think awareness is useless in pvp, classes that can easily gain CA over you can shred most players, even tanks. A measly 10k more combat advantage stat can net a big boost to a burst of damage if hit critically.

    In M16 combat would take forever, if build right, no one would die (which is why I ended up quitting the game for 4 months). In M17 it's very common to get killed in less than 2 seconds, especially if there is more than 1 opponent, and rogue and ranger will demolish anyone (which is why I'm about to quit the game for another 4 months). Rogues and Rangers can afford to build glass cannons because they can become "invisible" basically at-will, which is *the* best defensive ability in the game, hands down.

    Note, I say "Invisible", because there is no counter check given to players to reveal "stealth-ed" opponents. In D&D it's near impossible to "Sneak" into a brightly lit room full of enemies. You would have to use Invisibility combined with a move silently check.


    I don't know what caused the developers to make CA multiplicative with Critical Severity, while that might have been more appropriate before m16 when CAD was relatively low, and almost never went over 50% bonus, now it can go up to 100%, and I feel making it multiplicative at this point, broke a lot of balance that had been in place before. Even in PVE classes that can give themselves CA have a big advantage over those that can't in aoe situations.

  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    I See this pop up a lot in videos and other posts about how amazing and fun pre Mod 16 combat was, and how it should be brought back, but no one ever actually states why they think it was better, or what specific features they miss and how its different to now.
    What exactly do you mean?

    For me, the only thing I miss is faster more fluid combat, quicker dailies ( but not too quick) and lower CDs on encounters.

    I Do not miss buffing or life steal, it made content a joke where you could just stack up without moving ignoring everything and just bully through everything mindlessly.

    So im interested, what do you think is lacking now from before, and why? what did it bring to the game "Fun" wise
    And I mean for combat, not feat trees or boons or power points or any of that. Combat only
  • thekfdcase#5416 thekfdcase Member Posts: 31 Arc User
    > @tempus86#1158 said:
    > I See this pop up a lot in videos and other posts about how amazing and fun pre Mod 16 combat was, and how it should be brought back, but no one ever actually states why they think it was better, or what specific features they miss and how its different to now.
    > What exactly do you mean?
    >
    > For me, the only thing I miss is faster more fluid combat, quicker dailies ( but not too quick) and lower CDs on encounters.
    >
    > I Do not miss buffing or life steal, it made content a joke where you could just stack up without moving ignoring everything and just bully through everything mindlessly.
    >
    > So im interested, what do you think is lacking now from before, and why? what did it bring to the game "Fun" wise
    > And I mean for combat, not feat trees or boons or power points or any of that. Combat only

    I miss all the things you mentioned - both the ones you like, and the ones you dislike

    Buffing was brilliant! It was what made DCs fun to play for me, and recovery was absolutely pivotal for that playstyle. (And for many other classes too.) My main - a GWF (I refuse to use the laughable new moniker slang) - was a beast, and lifesteal plus self-buffing allowed for the precise up-close-&-personal melee approach that class is *supposed* to have (and did have).

    Ultimately it boils down to this for me: I enjoy the fruits of my labor, and in a game such as this, that absolutely means being able to steamroll all but the latest content solo once I'm BIS/near-BIS. Mod 16 obliterated that, and I've had no great desire to play since then.

    I suppose it's not all bad, though. I've saved a lot of money, and added it to my stock portfolios instead, and the time sink that is MMOs being removed from my free time schedule means I've experienced many other more satisfying things.

    So why do I still comment? Because this game did have a great & fun fast combat system, and it pains me to see well-put-together things destroyed - call it an aversion to vandalism. Also, I detest incompetence and bald-faced lies, and think neither should be rewarded nor go unmarked.
  • nemesrichnemesrich Member Posts: 85 Arc User
    What's the new dps/tank/healer order in mod 18 in your opinion?
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 578 Arc User
    edited January 1

    Many of you gave feedback that you'd like some balance adjustments now, rather than waiting for bigger/more accurate ones in a later module so that balance could be closer in the short term.


    Whisperknife:

    • Impact Shot - magnitude increased to 400
    • Shadow Strike - magnitude increased to 375
    • Shuriken Toss - magnitude increased to 45
    • Vengeance Pursuit - base magnitude increased to 150, stealthed bonus magnitude increased to 550, but also fixed issues with multi-proccing when it shouldn't have been
    • Dagger Threat - maximum benefit is now 20' instead of 15'
    • Gutterborn's Touch - no longer increases awareness, now increases ranged damage by 5%
    • Blitz - stealthed usage no reduces encounter cooldowns by 2s

    Love the Whisperknife changes. Maybe after this we wont see 100% Assassin Rogues. As a Whisperknife myself, I just want to add 2 suggestions.

    Disheartening Strike (At-Will) . This At-Will is currently bugged. Its DoT does 50 magnitude instead of the 100 magnitude the skill states, and it only lasts 5 seconds instead of 10 seconds. SUGGESTION: revise the tooltip to actual, but add to the effect that if a target dies while under the effects of the DoT, the Whisperknife gains 5% Stealth. One of the biggest complaints i see about Whisperknife is that it has slow Stealth regen. Disheartening Stike is a single target skill that deals less damage than any other at will. This would give it welcome utility as a support at-will.

    Cloud of Steel (at-will): This skill is rarely used by Rogues and does poor damage. Versus a single target, Shuriken Toss deals more damage. SUGGESTION: raise the damage increase to 5% per stack. It is tough to stack and can only really occur versus bosses... the extra 25% damage will not make it a preferred at-will, but at least it could then be useful to Whisperknives with a lot of range damage bonus.

    *** These two at-will changes would NOT increase damage of either paragon. Right now the skills are garbage. Changing them would make them viable alternative options. ***

  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,173 Arc User



    - Arcane Singularity: The control effect is so weak that monsters easily run out of the area of skill. Even if a monster sucks, it does not fall in the center of the skill area, only where it managed to run.

    This is pretty true for any control skill in the game. Either monsters resist way too much any kind of control or control is too weak to start with.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,173 Arc User

    I See this pop up a lot in videos and other posts about how amazing and fun pre Mod 16 combat was, and how it should be brought back, but no one ever actually states why they think it was better, or what specific features they miss and how its different to now.
    What exactly do you mean?

    For me, the only thing I miss is faster more fluid combat, quicker dailies ( but not too quick) and lower CDs on encounters.

    I Do not miss buffing or life steal, it made content a joke where you could just stack up without moving ignoring everything and just bully through everything mindlessly.

    So im interested, what do you think is lacking now from before, and why? what did it bring to the game "Fun" wise
    And I mean for combat, not feat trees or boons or power points or any of that. Combat only

    I'm with you on this, especially on lower CDs on encounters. Lower recovery rates have basically killed the ranger playstile. Warden is still viable but stuck into a fixed routine you can never change or adjust.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    I do miss recovery, while also understanding the reason for removing it. Too much recovery broke the concepts behind having encounter and daily powers that were used to turn the tide of battle.

    I think one problem that we have is a very limited selection of mostly very weak at-wills, and then you can only have 2 slotted at any given moment. So we have 3 encounters that mean something, but we can only use them once per encounter, usually (hence "encounter power"). Then, we are left poking at monsters with straws. One problem I have with wizard and rogue atm is a lack of good aoe at-wills. Barbarians have a really good aoe at-will. Sure you have chilling cloud on thaum and shuriken toss on wk, but they are lack luster or slow to affect multiple targets, or have weird animations and/or slow cast times. However, thaum is being turned into a trash mob clearing path which is what whisperknife is imho, and I really don't see a point in spending a loadout for trash clearing, an aoe build for fights that last longer than 10 seconds will do just fine at trash clearing, BUT, lack of aoe at wills on assassin and arcanist.

    I think we need a larger selection of at-wills that are slightly more powerful, and each paragon path should have a good aoe at-will that feels natural, like Rangers and Barbarians have.

    Another problem I have is these artifact sets that clearly benefit one class over all others, rangers and the daily activation artifact sets. Daily use is too sporadic for these sets to really be useful in any boss fight last more than 2 minutes, which is why orcus set will probably still be bis for everything except CN, the new zone and boss fights that end in 30 seconds. I also don't like that you release a set that is only useful in the new zone, which means it might be bis there, for a mod, then in all likelihood we will have to switch again in m19 and have 3 different sets to switch out in order to be maximally effective in various content. Seems like a scam. You (the developers) could have made orcus set obsolete in m16 simply by removing the dependency of using dailies from arcturia's and trobraind's sets and adjusting the damage bonuses accordingly.

  • rikitakirikitaki Member Posts: 449 Arc User


    Love the Whisperknife changes. Maybe after this we wont see 100% Assassin Rogues.

    For me Rogue = Deft Strike. It is the most fun power of the whole class. I mean, for daily running around, boss fights might benefit from other choices more...
    A rogue without DS? Well, OK, the smoke bomb is a nice thingy, but I really feel that switching to a paragon without DS is gutting the fun out of the class.

    So, regardless the changes, as long as Whisperknife does not have DS, it is not tempting. For me, of course.
  • paddy#2344 paddy Member Posts: 1 New User
    I see it’s nice to to buff up some of the characters that’s always a great sign, I’m super annoyed and feel let down by the encounter magnitude boosts to the warlock compared to other class encounter magnitude boosts, the only encounter boost to get any decent magnitude boost is the dreadtheft which is a gamble when used due to only doing great damage to a horde of enemy’s when they grouped.. single target build for the warlock is so bad due to the single targets magnitude damage being so low. Only decent magnitude damage attack is killing flames at 500-750. So I’d like to see some better magnitude on the warlock,
  • quickfoot#7851 quickfoot Member Posts: 451 Arc User
    edited January 5
    Hi I know this thread has become quite long, but I just want to make sure of something concerning all the nerfs to Wizard and Arcanist in particular.

    From my understanding these nerfs are a result of data collected from ToMM runs, and I just want to make sure that you (the devs) are looking at it in detail and not just as a whole. For example, not just "Arcanist is doing X% more damage than other classes on average, so lets nerf some of arcanist's class features to balance it out."

    The reason I am concerned is because I've been doing LoMM runs all day on my Wizard who has 190k power, in groups not consisting of another Wizard/Thaum, and all about the same power levels. I use common builds that are widely accepted as being FotM builds, and I consistently do NOT out perform others, if anything, I'm lagging behind, haven't been in first place paingiver at all today (even a soulweaver warlock using a bunch of tenebrous did more damage than I).

    I want to point out again that these are groups not consisting of a Thaumaturge in the group and this is important. Smolder has been bugged since even before mod 16, and in mod 16 now there is directed flames. The bug is this, if I am on Arcanist, and another Wizard is on Thaum and applies smolder, every time I apply chill, I proc his smolder and directed flames doing damage for myself, as Arcanist.

    I just want to make sure that this bug isn't the reason why you guys are nerfing arcanist so much, when in reality you should be fixing that interaction with smolder, chill, and other wizards.

  • aerhythia#3255 aerhythia Member Posts: 159 Arc User

    I See this pop up a lot in videos and other posts about how amazing and fun pre Mod 16 combat was, and how it should be brought back, but no one ever actually states why they think it was better, or what specific features they miss and how its different to now.
    What exactly do you mean?

    For me, the only thing I miss is faster more fluid combat, quicker dailies ( but not too quick) and lower CDs on encounters.

    I Do not miss buffing or life steal, it made content a joke where you could just stack up without moving ignoring everything and just bully through everything mindlessly.

    So im interested, what do you think is lacking now from before, and why? what did it bring to the game "Fun" wise
    And I mean for combat, not feat trees or boons or power points or any of that. Combat only

    DCs were buffing AP gain and lower encounter cooldowns. So you basically use your daily every 4 seconds or so to decrease cooldowns by 2 seconds. In addition to that you also have to hit allies with Divine Glow, cast BtS/FF every 8 seconds, cast one of the At-Wills every 10 seconds in range of allies and cast another encounter every few seconds on one or two of the DPS. All of that obviously trying to achieve no downtime in buffs. Compare this to some DPS classes or Devout cleric nowadays where 2/3 of the time you're doing nothing or using At-Wills which deal little damage. Combat was objectively more engaging. DPS had to be mindful of buffs that are not up 100% of the time like GFs commander strike and HRs Longstrider + the encounter that only buffs encounters.

    The problem was that buffs were multiplicative with each other. So a GF at 500% effectiveness from buffs was able to simply double that effectiveness to 1000% (for his own damage). Double damage skill just added a whopping 500% of relative increase. That was the only flaw. Normally you would expect a skill like that at 500% effectiveness to bump it to 600%, which is only a 20% relative increase.

    Similarly Lifesteal was based on the amount of damage dealt. Literally 100% of the damage you're dealing. Even DoTs were dealing >10k hits easily. Again normally you expect only a portion of damage dealt would be used.

    Thanks for bringing this up again and reminding me of better times!

    Personally I don't mind more methodical, strategic and slower combat if done right. If not I wouldn't play turn based games. But as you said the fluidity worked great, to a point were the combat was faster and more engaging then many other MMOs or games in general that were made with primarily flashy looking action combat in mind.

    Even now for Hellbringer and Dreadnought instead of lowering cooldowns a bit they just increase magnitude of everything. Hopefully with Mod 19 they will be able to take a look into this and are able to make it a bit more fluid again.
  • noworries#8859 noworries Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 532 Cryptic Developer


    From my understanding these nerfs are a result of data collected from ToMM runs, and I just want to make sure that you (the devs) are looking at it in detail and not just as a whole. For example, not just "Arcanist is doing X% more damage than other classes on average, so lets nerf some of arcanist's class features to balance it out."

    That is not where the balance changes can from. They came from data which included a much wider view of the game with lots of different endgame content.
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