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Some concerns about selling BoA/BoP items ingame
rysiek86
Member Posts: 145 Arc User
I would like to touch some issue that is happening ingame lately. Some people think that selling the Lionheart Weapon Set is absolutley all right for people who offer them some kind of currency. To be honest it doesnt matter what kind of currency this is... real cash/marks of potency/enchanting stones/whatever... The items are Bound to Account and should be obtained by effort of combined actions of players that play together in community such as guild or know eachother and form a solid group. The weapon as i understood should be some kind of reward to skilled players as developers mentioned it. The content is not obtainable for some people without a purpose. Taking additional benefit from Tower of the Mad Mage excluding chest drop is pure greed.
To me it is forbiden and such doings should be penaltied by permament ban for all the people who took a part with such occurrence...
I would like to hear opinion of other players.
I would love to get a clarification from developers with the issue.
I hope the players stop acting like freakin hyenas and see profit on every step possible (like ToMM itself was not profitable), than whine on everything is bad here (your actions make the game good or bad as well)
To me it is forbiden and such doings should be penaltied by permament ban for all the people who took a part with such occurrence...
I would like to hear opinion of other players.
I would love to get a clarification from developers with the issue.
I hope the players stop acting like freakin hyenas and see profit on every step possible (like ToMM itself was not profitable), than whine on everything is bad here (your actions make the game good or bad as well)
8
Comments
What about crafting?
Over the years... our crafting system gets upgraded occasionally, producing temporary BiS items. The top crafters with time on their hands.. make tens or hundreds of millions of AD on the market selling these items until the market becomes competitive and then the items become trash that few ever buy. Isn't there a better way?
I recommend that normal items crafted are sellable as always, but that crafter's with enough skill can create +1 to +X versions of the gear (increases as new mods are released), which is bound to their account. This way... skilled crafters can always create some gear for their characters that is BiS. How would this work? using fictional item... a Wolf Sword would be craftable and sellable at market by anyone. A crafter could create a "BtA" Wolf Sword by taking a Wolf Sword as one of the components, adding another component, and needing much more skill than a basic Wolf Sword. The result would be a Wolf Sword +1, same level req, but with more stats. A Wolf Sword +2 could be turned into a Wolf Sword +3, etc.. the limit would be set according to the MODs desires, to make sure crafting is always valuable.
You might think that is okay, but what happens is, you get a top end game player who has obtained what they wanted and then stop playing until new content comes out. What incentive do they have to run "difficult" content if there is no reward for them doing it? By removing items from being tradable on the AH you are slowly and surely cutting the numbers of players available to run the end game content. Which actually makes it worse for those middle ground players to run end game content. They are left running these dungeons with other players who lack experience which increases their chances of failure.
You need to increase or maintain this ability to sell BiS items on the auction house to maintain healthy queues for end game content. Remove this and the incentive to run the end game goes to zero.
So lets start... backwards. Devs and Support (GMs) answered clear in my opinion on the matter.
Here the dev talks about the hunts (which is an identical case) a year and a half ago. "Worry not, selling the drops is completely legitimate" "...or selling bound drops included on the spot...". Not sure how much more clear this can be.
There is also an answer from the support team from PWI but since it's not within the rules to publish the exact answer I will just say that Cryptic and PWI allows this as long as
a. One does not give the account to a 3rd person for farming (or any other reason)
b. No real cash take place in the transaction.
I want to point out that Cryptic won't even intervene in cases on scamming (not honoring the deal) as it's a verbal agreement between players. Their words, not mine.
I can go on how really this is NOT Illegal as few others trying to push it with some shameful tactics (Astra diamonds = cash), how its allowed on other games too etc but I think the dev's answer is more than enough. If you like tho we can expand on that even more.
Now sine its "legally" right the question that remains is... is it ethically right? That falls into another category and depending on the point of view a lot of things can be perceived as right or wrong. Is it ethically right for a player that copied someone else build to play and profit from said build pretending he is something that he is not? We often see players that don't know much about the game and/or class mechanics but because of some fine guides on the web... they perform well with everything that derives from it including loot. I can name few other examples too but for the time I will skip that part to keep this post relatively small and not open more topics and derail from the subject.
Truth be told I don't mind hiring or getting hired at all, and truth be told it doesn't affect you personally at all. They don't steal your weapon and give it to someone else. You still get to own what is yours. As the dev said in his post, this brings other aspects. From one side, the loot from tomm is progressively not worth it so by doing this the people who run find one more reason to do it in the form of a secure profit. On the other side the players that cant/wont like to do it now get to own the weapons to use them for whatever else they do. This is what I call a win/win situation that makes both groups happy. Why would anyone not related to either groups feel offended... it's beyond me.
I'm afraid without being 100% certain that this post you made has other reasons tho.
Fame??? If once vanity depends on a weapon they use... I won't expand on that. I always thought that our action and performance makes us who we are and not our items, I might be wrong tho.
Fortune? I think there's the real reason. Maybe someone is afraid that they will lose their slice of the pie or that said slice will get smaller? Well in that case I think you know who to call "freakin hyenas". Because it's nice to talk with facts and not... fiction, here are some of the comments that were made from, well you know who and it's about what is really bothering you with the subject. I blurred the names as that is not important (no naming/shaming) but the content is.
Key word... cross with our business!!!
Control about price...
I can show some other lovely comments if need be but I think we all get the idea.
If you personally think something is wrong, its absolutely your right to do or not do it, but you don't have the right to tell other people to do... or not do it.
If I am wrong in any way i will appologize, but i want to see a clear statment from the Devs that Selling Lionheart Weapons set is totaly all right.
Untill than my side is obvious... it shouldnt take place to take any profit from the person you carry. (because you are friends right
To the point. You may want to see a clear statement but you did lie to people that you had already an answer and its 100% illegal. If not, please prove me wrong by posting said ticket/answer from a dev of the game. It's strange how they did answer you right away when the company is on vacation mode but they don't answer you now... Let alone tha devs, dont answer tickets nor make game policies when it comes to bans.
It's important of course to ask the correct question right? If for example one asked "Can I do runs for real money/cash" of course the answer is NO. Now if one hides the fact that they asked about real money and present it as a different answer, well that tells a lot about the quality of said person. Others did ask tho PWI and got an answer that is it allowed.
GM IORA said exactly this
What I hate about posts like this is that you people lie about things and intentions. At least I can respect @groo111 cause he was honest and straight to the point. Regardless if I agree or disagree at least he has the courage to say the real reason and not being hypocritical and lie and try to bully people in fear of losing AD while calling other people " freakin hyenas".
So let's recap.
Devs and Game Masters answered that it's allowed to do that regardless if we like it or not and that is a fact. You have zero standing talking about bans in order to push your own agenda and profits.
That's my 2 cents.
PS. This is not a personal attack btw, I only answered to your comments that I think they are wrong.
Merry Xmas.
Ethics? I really wouldn't worry that this is an ethics problem. If anything, it may fix an ethics problem.
For my own reasons, I have deliberately never set foot in ToMM, but am looking to now, just because of the weapons, and what mod 18 does *not* appear to offer.
Let's examine, from a reasonable perspective, the history of ToMM, and consider the ethics:
-First up, ToMM was set up to elitist, by the devs. The ethics behind NW, as an MMO, has always been to emphasize skill over gear. Not this run. The gear barrier was set really, really high. You need to have a very, very expensive build to walk through the front door.
- ToMM is clearly highly scripted - badly, badly scripted. We're talking 9 phases of reacting to "Simon says", like some Mario Bros platform game. I haven't been in, but I have been warned, and all the ToMM videos look almost exactly the same. This is defintiely not what I like in an open world action MMO. This is about very high repeditive memorization. I heard enough from others to feel that I wouldn't support doing this, to not enourage further modules like this. Nothing against those who like that kind of thing, but, a whole module lost to that play syle?
- As far as making AD is concerned, the whole ToMM concept was bought into, at the alpha and beta stage, by a handful of content streamers and theory crafters, who were at elite stage, and perhaps clearly bored with the current content.
These guys, and their friends, made millions and millions and millions of AD when ToMM landed for the rest of us. If you checked the AH, it was the same names, again, and again, and again, asking very high prices. I don't disagree that they should have got an advantage, and the DEVs clearly weren't concerned, but be aware of the ToMM history, and try to avoid double standards on ethics positions.
- This single target elitist AD spinner happens to be an exact fit for the strength of the Wizard/Arcanist. Now, there's a huge impression that Arcanists need a solid nerf, and it's coming next mod - done in such a way that not only will Arcanist have it's AOE nerfed as well, but there are unintended (unrealized) nerfs that go through to the badly performing Thaum as well, which the DEVs tried to boost, without realizing that the Arcanist nerf-hammer actually made the Thaum worse too. It's a mess, just another ToMM side effect.
- What does ToMM mean to all those that never made the ToMM elitist track? Well, they kinda lost a whole module. They paid millions for rings via the AH, haven't seen a new dungeon since mod 16, and look set to miss out on one of the most important MMO upgrades for several modules - a good weapon set. Lionheart is clearly, easily the best, apparently to be used only by those that are of the elite grade, or their friendsm- those who need them the least.
- What about great weapon alternatives? They should go for the Watcher set instead? Mod 16 was a difficult transition to a better world. The way to make sense of run was do to MEs until you were just too sick of running them, and the "Watcher" spin-offs within that left a very bad taste in many mouths.
People are pretty uninspired by the mod 18 weapon set (the bonus is nothing special, when you're at a point you finally get it, you don't really need it anymore, and it only works in one place). Plus, no weapon excitement on the master crafting horizon.
- What about the queue structure problems of ToMM? If you want to get into it, how many elites need to be available to carry you? How many great drops are available, at the end, across that large group? You simply can't ignore the requirement for some self-interest, to the point where elites are now advertising that you need the Lionheart set already to join their group! Fantastic, now those that have already made it, are essentially locking it to themselves, to continue making AD as fast and reliably as possible. Bad luck to those who haven't made it there yet! The MMO reality folks! It's structurally just too plain difficult to put ToMM groups together for new players.
- What if these weapons weren't bound, and people could sell them in the AH for millions and millions of AD? That's just the standard AH concept. Ethics doesn't crack a mention there. At least, with this path, people get to experience the mod 17 dungeon.
- Why should ToMM weapons be so different from ToMM rings? The rings are a straight AD buy in the AH, missing out on the MMo run experience.
In my opinion, ToMM seemed like a reasonable concept at the time, but had had many difficult, unintended consequences.
The DEVs would probably be thankful that something is happening to make ToMM more accessible to more players.
What're the ToMM run prices? I don't know. The higher they are, the clearer the demonstration of difficulties in the ToMM concept, but they'll probably end up far less than what people paid for ToMM rings in the earlish days.
Hey, if it finally means some good weapons, and draws players together, exhausted from MEs/FEs/XEs, with enough self interest to grind through unfortunate "Simon says" platform-style mechanics, I'm all for it.
Everybody wins.
They are apparently BtA when equipped, and like everything else that is not bound until equipped, they are fair game to be sold, traded, or given away as the owner sees fit.
You want clarification from the devs? There it is.
If they wanted these to be untradeable they would have made them untradeable.
They would be in the AH, fetching much more than legendary rings, if they could be traded/sold.
Let's imagine that Developers decide to bring new Pack as almost every pre-mod period brings us. This Pack contains some new cool looking mount, some fantastic title, some campaign currency boost and... The Lionheart Weapon set ! One whole weapon set to choose whatever character you pick to open with. The standart price of such packs is around 10'000 ZEN without special offer.
What will you say now Weapon selling defenders ?? Is it fine for you ?? Oh hell no !! And i bet you will scream: "Cryptic its Pay to Win !!! Why are you destroying the game by bringing such things to the game !!!!" And id say , because it will help to obtain more founds to improve our overall experiance in quality of the game.
Wait a minute, so company that runs the game cant implement such things... but the players who are doing excatly the same (someones pays you to win the weapon set to be strict) are cool right ??.
You will say but it costs ZEN ! You must bring your wallet here... yes ?? Not at all, we have a fantastic transfer method... so all the Marks of Potency or Enchantings stones you get can be sold for Astral Dimonds in auction house and transfered to ZEN... 10'000 zen is 7'500'000 milion ad right ?? How much do u want for the weapon set ?? Do you have the bravery to tell it here ?? Would you put the effort still to to carry "friends:D" there ??
It seems you still dont get my point, and you flaten the topic to my personal wealth ingame... I dont mind your wallets i dont mind your Dimonds quantities... What i mind is: you are breaking the bond established by all the players progressing Tower of the Mad Mage. Who of us was not carried here in any way ?? Who of us who put enormous effort to learn the mechanics didnt want to help another person to learn them too ?? All the people colaborated together, invited eachother to the friend list because they knew: "that person is the one i can rely on when i ask to join my team". Can you rely on person who bought the weapon, i bet not , because you will probably never see this person again and will never come back on ToMM because it is still a mistery how does the trial works ??
Kudos to all the people i met and spend time on Tower of the Mad Mage.
Kudos to all who helped their guildies and friends to teach them the trial mechanics and consider the Weapon set as an ultimate reward for cooperation and hard time spent there on learning.
I hope I precised my general idea and Im still looking forward to get the response from the Developers.
Thank you and Merry Xmas
Pay To Win (PTW) means that one can get something by buying (paying) when the others CAN'T obtain said item in any other way including farming, and by doing so the paying player would be stronger compared to the others (Win) by having the advantage. If a company allows multiple avenues including zen store, its not PTW but rather Pay to Advance or Pay to Rush.
Again you demonstrate a clear bias because of your and your friends greed for AD and market control and to support your case you ignore what the dev said clearly in his comment. Go above and read the yellow marked sessions of his comment and then read what GM Iora said. It is intended and by design. What you or I or others believe has zero leverage after that point. Saying we try to bypass and trying to make it look like in offense when the developer said it's allowed can only be described as pure blindsight. Do you doubt the developer?
As for your other points you really sound offended and triggered. "How much do u want for the weapon set ?? Do you have the bravery to tell it here ?? " I can ask you the same btw. How much do you want market control on selling rings? How much do you want the others to stay back so you can milk more AD? You and your friends should really be ashamed.
Also not sure why you keep mentioning "friends". Literally no one here mentioned friends and I think in your desperate effort to promote your greediness you are making cases that aren't there. Just out of curiosity tho. When you have your friends come home and help you with let's say painting a wall or moving furniture or anything hard labor related, won't you after buy them dinner or at least drinks for their trouble and time? If on top you know that your friends spend money to come to you (in game that is for rez scrolls, health stones, potions/food etc) wouldn't you at least offer to compensate for the cost of those if anything else? Please spare me your morality when all you and your friends do is buying the rings from people to only sell them higher. Legitimate as it is, you make the people more unhappy than those runs we do to that at we have a win/win situation. People may pay but they get a chance to get weapons and rings which of course they won't buy from you, or as seen above you afraid they will undercut you. ALL FOR AD.
You say you don't mind wallets and AD but what I saw in the messages show a different story. You make a mistake here tho by mixing game experience with the weapons. If one wants to do TOMM to learn it as many did and we help them do it, they are still free to do so (and they will) regardless of this. Sharing that time with friends is as good as any time spend with friends. Is that taken away from you and I somehow? You act like all the sudden you or I or others can't do any of the things you said. Since this is going on did you do less runs? You had less fun apart when you see lower prices in AH?
"you are breaking the bond established by all the players progressing Tower of the Mad Mage"
How does one person getting a weapon break said bond? If anything, it's the opposite but you would never understand. I think you are trying to trigger and act emotionally by appealing to the "bond" on purpose instead of using logic. I can assure you bond is still there and on top people make new friends which is the opposite of what you try to describe.
If anything I will let you know that those runs brought more people together than you think and both sides are extremely happy about those runs and I'm glad to see more people jumping in and now 2 groups running it. In discords people are more talkative and tease each other about those runs. They log and are eager to run once again and not complain about bad loot. Where is the difference?
Now my turn to ask you some questions.
Why are you so "hurt"? if one person gets a weapon this way which in one or two modules won't even worth and they are willing to compensate a team for their effort and help, why is that bothering you? is your self esteem so low that a weapon is all you have to show for yourself?
Why do you care what others do in game, specially when the devs/gms said its allowed? Do you know them? run with them? are your game pixels depending on them?
"Can you rely on person who bought the weapon, i bet not , because you will probably never see this person again " and you would lose that bet as of course I can is a lot of cases. A lot of players are actually good players but don't want to do the trial. Because they don't want due to time constraints (you do now that tomm takes a lot of time to learn and even more doing it) or repetitive battle in their opinion, they opt out of doing it. I can name few other reasons but the point is, because they don't do tomm, it doesn't mean they are bad as you try to imply. And why should I care if I see that person again or not. There are a lot of good people I never see again.. what kind of argument is that? and about if they do tomm afterwards... what that has to do with anything? If they do, they do, if not good for them too.
"I hope I precised my general idea " As I said on my other commend there are 2 reasons you might object. Fame and Fortune and you now demonstrated both. You never addressed any of my points which only shows how wrong you and your group are, and you try to deflect and divert by trying to wave a morality flag and appeal to emotions. I do believe in your head you think you are right and try to wave a holy war but all of us here know the real reasons now. In case you wonder why I say holy war...
Weapons = skill and status & and all for profit and market control. Both Wrong.
A small advice if you may consider it: Stop thinking of what other people do with their game and focus on what you do. If what they do doesn't affect you like steal your items or block you from running content in the way you want etc (other than undercut you of course :P) you have no right to tell anyone what to do or not do and even more so, say it's illegal or bannable offense. If you are a great player, you will still be regardless of what weapons others use. If you are a bad one, you will still be bad even with the best weapons. Weapons are irrelevant to being good or bad. They just put a small emphasis on your character but they don't define a player.
Andorra Bell
Guild Leader The Holy Crusaders
https://www.theholycrusaders.com/
If you don't mind lets stick to the topic and not bring in other issues and try to make irrelevant connections and derail the conversation. To each his own I guess. You won't do it, others will. Its balanced in some strange way.
1. It is indeed 100% legal, as long as it is in-game items.
2. Market control? Fame and fortune? Am I the only one that noticed that the time of big AD from ToMM long passed, rings at 30k will not bring fame or fortune. Probably easier to sell Xunas and Bulletes from CoDG or doing stupid PF on average per time spent.
3. It is usually the same people who request "Looking for X for ToMM exp must have weapons" that also sell those weapon runs. Yet we know that you, obviously, don't need to have the weapons to complete it, otherwise where the weapons would come from.. So the question becomes, how it is called when someone puts an artificial barrier and then charges for a way to pass it?
4. Friends compensate? Posting in Zone and lfg and various channels "Selling weapons, pm" (paraphrasing). Those that I saw are not friends compensating, this is pure and simple trading and selling. Which akin to squeezing the last bit of AD from ToMM now since the rewards themselves are not really sell high, people found a new way to make profit. So lets not pretend this is done for any friends, greater good, or whatever. It is a pure revenue thing. Also there is that little tiny part of requesting for a price...
5. The value of the weapons is in the time spent, as in earned via work. You can buy grades, and you can buy whole degrees nowdays, nepotism buys positions without qualifications, and so many other ills of society that obviously it devalues the whole system.
Is it black and white? Not at all, want to help actual friends, help them to learn, help them to complete, but lets not compare that to selling, those are not the same.
6. If someone doesn't have the time, no biggie, there are plenty of really nice weapons out there, Burnished, Alabaster, Warden, which will not prevent anyone from doing LoMM or mod18 Avernus thing. If you can't put the time or the will, it's ok to not have the weapons. Simple as that.
Just to be clear tho the "friends" concept was not brought by me and I'm not sure how it got into this conversation. This has nothing to do with friends and how one treats them.
The OP made a comment about this being illegal and people should get banned. Thats was my main objection and the heart of my comments. I don't like when people try to push other people into doing or not doing things by imposing their opinions on others,
Someone doesn't like to do it? Fine and I will support their opinion on not doing it.
Someone else likes to do it? Same as above.
That simple.
2: The players that pay they dont want owe a favor thats why they pay they dont want to do it for free.
3: selling rings to poeple they dont deserve them isnt the same as to sell the weapons to the poeple they dont deserve them?
4: each group has its own rules we do whatever we want as long is legal.
If someone wants the weapons, they can train, learn, do it, or if they don't have the time or don't like ToMM (and both completely valid) they can stay with burnished, nothing wrong with that.
3) No, not the same, rings are unbound, and meant to be sold. Weapons are bound and meant to be earned.
Some people work hard to get to medical school, some get their rich parents to donate a new library to the University. Admission criteria is set by the University so both legal in some backwater countries, but we don't have to like it.
4) This is not a group issue, this is overall community behaviour, and while I'm sure you don't care about what I think about this, and that is valid too, I have much less respect to people who try to earn AD on something that in a good community should be offered as mutual help - and other people indeed do training runs, help others to learn and help with groups, and all the respect to them.
Is it legal? As in does the ToS explicitly forbid this? No it doesn't forbid, but not all things that are not explicitly forbidden should be done, wouldn't it be nice to see sometimes a bit beyond personal gain, and do something for the overall health of the community. Especially when the clear intention is weapons = earned, rings / artifact or anything that unbound = sold. Yet, ofc, that doesn't make it "forbidden".
I guess it is the concept of earned that is fluid here.
Bottom line, I guess, there is nothing much to go on about this, some will keep doing it, and others (me included) will keep not liking it. But opinions are opinions, we all have them, and they....
In my opinion we have 2 separate issues. One is to learn the dungeon/mechanics etc and the other is to get a weapon set that only drops in there. People make it sound like the two are mutually inclusive. It's a different thing if one wants to learn the dungeon as that person will still seek training teams/groups and guidance and still try to do it and it's another if one wants an item from there and doesn't care about the dungeon itself and never plans to come back. One may see it as immoral but at the end is a decision and a conscious choice that no one should force another to do or not do by pointing fingers.
To close this and to be honest I would agree with people on the moral issue up to an extend, but being able to look behind the curtain of most groups I do ToMM, I only see people worrying that others will come in and get a share of the pie and undercut etc. Don't take my word I can send you 100s of screenshots to see. Almost none expressed an issue with a person having the weapons doing whatever else they kept doing.
My 2 cents
One is the easier one, and its key is here: "How is it different from grinding tomm for weapons to sell? "
You actually can't grind ToMM for weapons to sell, the weapons are bound, so you invite a person as dead weight, they ask the person to sit on the campfire while they 9 complete the run, and the person gets the 1 weapon that drop (or whatever arrangement goes by weapon type).
So ToMM has 2 incentives to play it, one is direct to char progress and achievement (and I guess status), the Weapons, and the second economical, the rings and artifact. This method turns the first into the second, by creating a "completion token" for the ToMM runs, and as opposed to old campaigns, I doubt that devs like it. (That doesn't mean that anyone will do anything about it now, or can do something about it)
Also in this case, there is no AH involved, and I doubt that it affects the ZAX in meaningful way, even if the few people that do buy use ZAX to get AD.
The second will be the entry barrier. MW had equal entry for everyone (discounting a specific bug), you put the dime, you unlock, you sell. In this case, people on purpose add to the groups requirements the "must have weapons" when you don't need those, just to sell the runs to get them and prevent newer players to ToMM to get them otherwise.
IMO, this is the HAMSTER part of the process, a group that clearly can finish it as 9 people chooses to sell it instead of giving a player who trained for months a chance to see a return for their labor.
Personally, I had higher expectations overall, and ToMM disillusioned me about the "Community" in so many ways. Long long ago, in a galaxy far away, so many mods ago, when I was a noob, people took the time to explain thing, take with them, and demonstrate, even at the cost of a run failure.
I've assumed the same, that people who completed will take the time to help others, and so on, without some agenda, just because we are all here for a game, and it does feel nice (at least IMO) not to carry or being carried, but to complete it as a group. How wrong I was. I think we have the game rules, and the intent that we understand from them, and the values we bring with us. I think the core disagreement of some of us, is not legality, but those values and expectations we believe in as individuals and come from outside the game. Not the same, but IMO, closely related. The main incentive to learn the mechanics and do live runs is the weapons, especially when the rest lowered in value.
Upgrading your char, learning the mechanics, and getting a group enough times to get the weapons is much more AD, time and effort, and with that comes a sense of achievement. That shortcut devalues that sense of achievement, as in "Why I've put months of training, upgrading the char, etc.. when x threw couple of mil and got them"
Learning the mechanics just to learn the mechanics is not an incentive enough to do ToMM, the rewards must match the effort. I don't fully agree, if something will be stopped by "pointing fingers", then there was some consensus that it was morally wrong, otherwise that type of pressure wouldn't work. Ofc, in pointing fingers I mean figuratively about the subject, and not specific people.
Also any discussion and "accusation" should be truthful, and if the action is within the ToS, then it is within the ToS.
A community can set standards of what is "good" and "bad", for better or worse, and regardless of the written "law" enforced by external entity. IMO this is unfortunate, and perhaps in some away it is meant to appeal to the motivation of those who sell the weapons, for example an easy argument will be "You earn on the weapons now, but you devalue your own loot in the overall scheme of things, so it's not profitable"
This is just an assumption. Personally, I put a lot of effort into getting everyone I know and want to finish ToMM, through it, with almost daily training runs. I want to see people who put the effort, complete it, and without payments, carry, and whatever. And yes, I think others paying for the shortcuts devalue that effort.
It is extremely unlikely that anyone will care about my personal weapons or status, as I mostly do not join those groups that only care about profit. Nor undercutting wars or flipping or whatever, I just match the lowest and that is that.
There are people, like @groo111 who did (and still does) many training runs, for anyone who just wanted to come, with the full knowledge that that will increase the AH competition on the rings.
At the end I don't expect everyone to be the poster child of altruism, but yes, to think twice about the health of the game, the community and so on. At the end, a person who just buys the weapons and keeps doing their thing do not really "need" the weapons, their most significant contribution is in hard content, and as an achievement reward. It just lowers the chance of future player engagement in hard content, and hence lowers the chance of the devs investing into creating said content in the future.
I want just to note that I was expecting world war forum PvP, due to the topic, and I'm surprised that how civil the discussion has remained.
Ofc also all the above is my opinion and nothing more, I don't presume to force, enforce or anything to anyone.
This is more of a balancing issue than OP's mentioned issue, but according to the rules, as long as no real life money is involved, it is but legal. However, morally you can point fingers on others but this is done with the consent of the buyer. Sure, you can go ahead and call the seller/s greedy for not carrying that one noob but i am 100% sure that a big part of this problem is balancing. I wouldn't second blaming the dev's for this because you reap what you Sow. TO those who think that balancing issues currently are unintentional, they you clearly are lacking in the business side of things.
I do want to point out that Lion heart is actually a big part of completing TOMM. Of course if you have few good and geared wizards, then you probably don't need it, but I am thinking more in terms of none of the dps having lion heart. Then the dps loss would be huge. That's something the dev's really should consider in the future.
As the only dps cleric in my guild, I know i was carried though TOMM for the weapon set eventhough i had weeks of practice on preview and i don't think i suck that much with cleric. I was told that as long as you are not doing around 250k encpds throughout TOMM, you are being carried and i was not doing that much and nor do i do that much currently in LIVE with lion heart and I have 200k power as well. The best barb in our guild is maxing out out on 250kencpds with Personal artifact in TOMM and he is one of the only barbs you'll ever see do that much damage. That's Hamster why the dev's should sort out the damn balancing issue. On preview things look better for dps cleric but i have no incentive to run TOMM live and being carried. People don't realize that a slow dps will mean you will go through additional mechanics and it just puts the burden on the performing dps to play perfect. That's absolutely not right and considering that the rest of the people want to grind TOMM, which is completely different to just completing TOMM, than any bottleneck in dps is going to be a lot of time waste and not to mention the effort.
Don't even get me started on the worthless vanity pets...
I have no clue what they charge for a Drok's Run today, but it was a service offered by one player to another. I don't like skipping ahead. I never bought a run, but I made a lot of platinum back then. Best of all you didn't have to advertise, some person would be asking and you offered the service. If your service was cash, then no deal, we dealt in virtual game currency only.
This game offers the service to avoid playing entire campaigns with buyout tokens. Cryptic may think you are cutting into their profits by offering a service that would prevent them from making a sale. It doesn't matter what anyone here tells you. If Cryptic says your service is illegal, then prepare to get the ban hammer.
Just killing time...
They earned it. Let them sell it.
Those who remember the old CN know farm-to-AH was the rule, not the exception.
Took made a mint from "Dungeon Hour" farming.
There's no adverse affect on fairness.
It's simple economics: market segmentation.
1) There will be hardcore FTP who grind out their gear and pay no money. They supply the best players to carry the weak ones and supply the AH w good gear.
2) There will be casual players (the majority) who grind most of their gear but ocassionally buy zen and hit the AH for what they can afford.
3) There will be weekend wallet whales who buy zen and AH the best gear available. They supply the IRL $ to keep the game alive.
All three are needed for a healthy economy.
The pure wallets with bought BiS gear usually have sucky build and poor playstyle anyway, so it's not an unfair advantage, ITHO.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.