The more comments I see about this is ok or a good thing. I really think yall have lost sight of the whole meaning of this thread, We already know selling in game items doesn't violate ToS. But what we are forgetting is that in our rush to make AD from outfitting Wallet warrior's, is that we are essentially sending more and more ppl who are not ready for Tomm. But who now have the weapons so they now EXP and get in groups and Hamster it up. So this is a double edged sword yall, and dont forget. The AD you make from pulling ppl, will also diminish in the sense that. With a new influx of players who are completing Tomm now cause of pulling, will now add more to the auction house. And the undercutting war will escalate. We as players are going to continue to run Tomm as it's only semi challenging content we have and is profitable. These are just my opinions
I'd rather train people than give or sell stuff. Old adage. Give a man a fish he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish he will himself for a lifetime
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @groo111 said: > "...sending more and more ppl who are not ready for Tomm. But who now have the weapons so they now EXP and get in groups and Hamster it up."
Having weapons does not make you "exp".
Wallet Warriors will almost never have a perfectly logical gear-out and build. One "inspection" can easily identify a wallet warrior: random high-end BoE gear. And you should be posting "exp only" in your LFG anyway.
Don't want to run with a wallet warrior? Don't invite them to your party. Done. The wallet warriors will run with their own friends, guilds, alliances or PUGs that don't mind their inexperience.
So, how does that affect you? It doesn't. Live and let live.
It's not mutually inclusive: Not every player with purchased endgame gear is inexperienced.
> @groo111 said: "The AD you make... undercutting war will escalate. " So? That's Econ 101. Supply and demand. The true experiencep FTP still have first-mover advantage.
The rockstars who slaved away on preview, tested and mastered the new content make a killing. Good on them. They earned it.
Casual players master it next. A few will buy weapons. Too expensive for most. They grind it, earn weapons and fill the game with exp players. Now they start farming, driving the price down.
By the time the hapless wallet warriors are farming TOMM the AH is saturated. Price is low. Good. They don't deserve to make millions and they don't need milliins anyway. How is that a problem?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Personally, I had higher expectations overall, and ToMM disillusioned me about the "Community" in so many ways. Long long ago, in a galaxy far away, so many mods ago, when I was a noob, people took the time to explain thing, take with them, and demonstrate, even at the cost of a run failure. I've assumed the same, that people who completed will take the time to help others, and so on, without some agenda, just because we are all here for a game, and it does feel nice (at least IMO) not to carry or being carried, but to complete it as a group. How wrong I was.
Welcome to my world. Some of us have realized this for a while now.
It has been that way since at least Mod 10, with the big change to "super-hard dungeons" like FBI, instead of dungeons that could be finished by most groups.
I distinctly recall, in Mod 13, when CODG was the newest super-hard content, and right after when the "logout" exploit was fixed, there were evidently only a few people remaining who knew how to do the push-pull legit. So they, for a time, had a near-monopoly on the gold Enchanting Stones that dropped from there (they also dropped from TONG but much more rarely) - these were the TOMM rings of the moment. I would see their comments in public channels about selling the gold Enchanting Stones for as high a price as possible, and berating players who undercut the price too much. I have no doubt they engaged in some of the toxic behavior that we see today with TOMM.
Making this super-hard-core elitist content only brings out the worst in people. Aren't there already enough games out there that have this type of environment? Why does Neverwinter have to be in the same camp?
Personally, I had higher expectations overall, and ToMM disillusioned me about the "Community" in so many ways. Long long ago, in a galaxy far away, so many mods ago, when I was a noob, people took the time to explain thing, take with them, and demonstrate, even at the cost of a run failure. I've assumed the same, that people who completed will take the time to help others, and so on, without some agenda, just because we are all here for a game, and it does feel nice (at least IMO) not to carry or being carried, but to complete it as a group. How wrong I was.
Welcome to my world. Some of us have realized this for a while now.
It has been that way since at least Mod 10, with the big change to "super-hard dungeons" like FBI, instead of dungeons that could be finished by most groups.
I distinctly recall, in Mod 13, when CODG was the newest super-hard content, and right after when the "logout" exploit was fixed, there were evidently only a few people remaining who knew how to do the push-pull legit. So they, for a time, had a near-monopoly on the gold Enchanting Stones that dropped from there (they also dropped from TONG but much more rarely) - these were the TOMM rings of the moment. I would see their comments in public channels about selling the gold Enchanting Stones for as high a price as possible, and berating players who undercut the price too much. I have no doubt they engaged in some of the toxic behavior that we see today with TOMM.
Making this super-hard-core elitist content only brings out the worst in people. Aren't there already enough games out there that have this type of environment? Why does Neverwinter have to be in the same camp?
I actually think you are mixing the two and trying to claim they are the same people. If you remove the ability to sell high demand items then you remove incentive to run. Currently players will help other players run harder content because they also know at the same time they have a chance to pull something that makes them some AD at the other end. However; if you argue to change this, then you remove the desire for players to help other players drastically. Will there still be some players out there who help just to help? Sure there will, but that number will get smaller if you make all chest rewards BTA. There is a price for everything and part of the blame is also on you as well so you can't just say its some toxic players who are causing all the problems.
You have to look at this from all points of view. Are you doing enough to make your character ready to undertake this content or are you trying to sneak by with very little effort on your part to be prepared? This can rub some players the wrong way because they have taken the time, so why haven't you? Some times you need to ask yourself if it's rude to try and run content that you aren't ready for instead of expect everyone in the queue group to just accept that your character isn't ready.
I refused to run CoDG when it first came out because I didn't know how to handle the push pull until I mentioned it during a different dungeon run when the party was asked if everyone wanted to run it after we were finished. I told them I suck at push pull and wouldn't want to ruin the run. But they said they would teach me how to handle it and they did. After that I ran it constantly. I got lucky on getting that help but I also gave them chances to go with someone else rather than remain silent and leave the party assuming I could handle myself.
I have seen many times where players try to sneak into dungeons that they aren't ready for and they aren't even considerate enough to just state that they are new and are still trying to learn the mechanics. I respect players who admit that they are still in the learning phase, the patience is lost when they say nothing and it becomes obvious after a short time that they don't know the mechanics. This is when its annoying because things could have been prepared mean while what was wasted during a failed attempt?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Personally, I had higher expectations overall, and ToMM disillusioned me about the "Community" in so many ways. Long long ago, in a galaxy far away, so many mods ago, when I was a noob, people took the time to explain thing, take with them, and demonstrate, even at the cost of a run failure. I've assumed the same, that people who completed will take the time to help others, and so on, without some agenda, just because we are all here for a game, and it does feel nice (at least IMO) not to carry or being carried, but to complete it as a group. How wrong I was.
Welcome to my world. Some of us have realized this for a while now.
It has been that way since at least Mod 10, with the big change to "super-hard dungeons" like FBI, instead of dungeons that could be finished by most groups.
I distinctly recall, in Mod 13, when CODG was the newest super-hard content, and right after when the "logout" exploit was fixed, there were evidently only a few people remaining who knew how to do the push-pull legit. So they, for a time, had a near-monopoly on the gold Enchanting Stones that dropped from there (they also dropped from TONG but much more rarely) - these were the TOMM rings of the moment. I would see their comments in public channels about selling the gold Enchanting Stones for as high a price as possible, and berating players who undercut the price too much. I have no doubt they engaged in some of the toxic behavior that we see today with TOMM.
Making this super-hard-core elitist content only brings out the worst in people. Aren't there already enough games out there that have this type of environment? Why does Neverwinter have to be in the same camp?
I really don't want to open this usual interaction between us, but no, my gripe is on specific interactions, and some subset of people.
There are training runs for ToMM open to everyone, and there people from the original first group that finished that I can ask for help and they will help.
The main distinction between us and our position is that while you refuse to recognize it, is that my guild is not some elite uber uhdps whatever, but players with families, children, and obligations, with 95% are 35+ age. And still I aim to get everyone who is interested through, with almost daily trainings (or more correctly when I can get 10 players with the above restrictions), after half year we are mostly finally there, as a group.
Community is what you make of it, and in mine we will make those runs with pleb Barbies, and arbiter DC and whoever and whatever, may take longer, maybe some improvisations, some compromises, but it will be done.
Our interaction, beyond the lovely comments on that one popular blog, started on the topic of CoDG, and I distinctly remember it. There is a group of people who were / are willing to help players, as much as they can, and you choose to throw everyone into the same "Elitist jerks" bin and do so with choice words, please do not complain that no one is willing to help you after that. Yet Sharp went to that training CoDG attempt right after, and yet you didn't take it seriously enough that the random group composition didn't even get pass the elevator.
But anyway, this is offtopic, some things I have very long memory for, but I really shouldn't go into that,.
Tier 1, 2 dungeons were harder at their time than FBI. CN was significantly harder at its time than FBI. We argued about this on many occasions, and at the end, for you "most groups" are random solo pugs, while this is not reality if to look at any functioning alliance or into the game population in general. And "most groups" in the general sense, can actually finish anything with no issues, and could do so at the relevant time, even if it took couple of wipes, and some adapting, except ToMM which indeed needs work and training.
Lol thx for all those exciting explanations of real life terms . Everyone has opinions on this matter, and ima stick with mine. I'd rather teach than pull. I'd rather help then get paid. If yall need or want training We at the Relentless alliance. Set up training runs for whole server. Wednesday's at 5pm utc and at 10 pm utc. And on other days ran by others in alliance. Contact @groo111 in game or @LILITH#8998@fingolfin#9928 on discord
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @groo111 said: > Lol thx for all those exciting explanations of real life terms . Everyone has opinions.
Supply and demand is not an opinion. Price elasticity is not an opinion. First-mover advantage is not an opinion. These are quantifiable laws of economics. You can see proof of these laws in the NW AH .
Making BoE gear sellable on AH does not hurt the economy. Fact. Measurable. Not opinion.
Gotta push back on this statement. "Either you're a greedy AH farmer ... OR ... you're an altruistic angel of mercy selflessly helping others." False dichotomy.
Took learned ToMM from others on preview. Those same ezperts are farming ToMM today.
All of the best guides for ToMM are based on the testing by these hardcore preview players.
Your Alliance training runs are teaching mechanics they decifered. Most of us wouldn't have a clue how the mechanics work without their efforts on preview. Many of them still support training runs. And farm rings. At the same time. Not binary.
Propper respect to you for the training runs. Keep up the good work.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Last time I looked the ToMM weapons were BtA on pick up. No chance of those being sold. And they shouldn't be as they have to bought with special currency. I co think that we should have the ability to farm things like ToMM, or Tales, for currency to items for our alts. My tank had a much easier time getting tales runs than any of my other toons.
All other items that drop from chest rewards, dungeon completion rewards(not currency like demonic icor), items from starlight parcels, or gift of simril groups should be 100% unbound on pick up. There are already several items that are unbound in this game that are sellable/tradeable, and items from chest drops should NOT be BtA/BtC on pick up. BtA at worst on equip, fine, especially items bought with any kind of currency, including but not limited to ad zen, or whatever the currency du jour is this mod...
I personally will probably skip farming the ToMM weapons. I can't remember the set bonus right now, but I remember thinking "meh", I was the same way with the watcher weapons. However I do want to run ToMM once just to notch my bedpost so to speak, but that look near impossible on xbox right now.
I personally will probably skip farming the ToMM weapons. I can't remember the set bonus right now, but I remember thinking "meh", I was the same way with the watcher weapons. However I do want to run ToMM once just to notch my bedpost so to speak, but that look near impossible on xbox right now.
Same.
Pretty much.
I actually found myself in CoDG the other week and explained I hadn't been there before and had no idea what to do. Yeah my bad.
Zero response from the party.
I offered to leave if it was going to spoil the run [I got dragged in from a RQ they were half way through] as my barbie "tank" isn't fabulous at tanking.
Zero response.
We finished off the last Boss pretty easily to my amazement.
But going back on topic - there should be way more items unbound and that would help the mid range players get to top range quicker. Maybe that isn't a popular opinion. But it is mine and I am sticking to it.
Make every drop unbound for the duration of the Winter Festival would be a great Christmas Present.
I really don't want to open this usual interaction between us, but no, my gripe is on specific interactions, and some subset of people.
There are training runs for ToMM open to everyone, and there people from the original first group that finished that I can ask for help and they will help.
The main distinction between us and our position is that while you refuse to recognize it, is that my guild is not some elite uber uhdps whatever, but players with families, children, and obligations, with 95% are 35+ age. And still I aim to get everyone who is interested through, with almost daily trainings (or more correctly when I can get 10 players with the above restrictions), after half year we are mostly finally there, as a group.
Community is what you make of it, and in mine we will make those runs with pleb Barbies, and arbiter DC and whoever and whatever, may take longer, maybe some improvisations, some compromises, but it will be done.
Our interaction, beyond the lovely comments on that one popular blog, started on the topic of CoDG, and I distinctly remember it. There is a group of people who were / are willing to help players, as much as they can, and you choose to throw everyone into the same "Elitist jerks" bin and do so with choice words, please do not complain that no one is willing to help you after that. Yet Sharp went to that training CoDG attempt right after, and yet you didn't take it seriously enough that the random group composition didn't even get pass the elevator.
But anyway, this is offtopic, some things I have very long memory for, but I really shouldn't go into that,.
Tier 1, 2 dungeons were harder at their time than FBI. CN was significantly harder at its time than FBI. We argued about this on many occasions, and at the end, for you "most groups" are random solo pugs, while this is not reality if to look at any functioning alliance or into the game population in general. And "most groups" in the general sense, can actually finish anything with no issues, and could do so at the relevant time, even if it took couple of wipes, and some adapting, except ToMM which indeed needs work and training.
That's funny, I seem to recall things a little differently.
I recall that you helped to start a channel, NW_Legit_Community, that was *originally*, back in Mod 1 or so, a very helpful place for players to get advice and help and exploit-free dungeon runs. The population of that channel changed over time, so that by Mod 13 or so, that place was nothing like what it was back when you started it. There were still a few helpful players, but from my perception anyway, it had a lot more players, *including known exploiters* (kinda ironic for a "Legit" channel), who would prefer to sit around and lecture everyone else on what to do. And yes they were being elitist jerks about it. Because I called out the bad behavior of some of those players on the channel you started, you chose to take it personally as some criticism *of you*. I did not criticize you. I criticized them. I am and continue to be appreciative of your work. But not everyone on that channel were as helpful as you. Far from it.
And since you chose not to go on the training run that I organized, you don't really have first hand knowledge of what happened. I will let Sharp speak to his experience if he chooses to do so. But yes our team did not get very far. I tried my best in that attempt and I'm insulted that you think I didn't take it seriously enough. It was a *training run*. What was I supposed to do, ask for EXP for a training run? A more thoughtful reflection on that event might lead someone to conclude "hey, maybe that content is harder than I originally thought". But no you chose to take it as an indictment of me. Because you are perpetually offended by a misunderstanding from years ago and you refuse to let it go.
Lastly, @micky1p00 , I think you live in a bubble of privilege that you don't even seem to realize. You have built a strong guild and you should be very proud of what you have done. Just realize that most other guilds don't have the same level of achievement that you have for yours. Your experience is not typical nor normal. It is way above average. I just now checked who was participating in TOMM runs, and of the seven active instances, two of them had players from your guild in them. I think that is a remarkable achievement. How many other guilds do you think can make that claim? Not many. I would be surprised if there were more than 10 people in my entire alliance that have finished TOMM. I don't say this to ask for pity or anything. I say this simply to put into perspective what you have done. I have been in a few other guilds, other than my current one, and my experience with those has been similar to what I experience now: there are maybe 2-3 players who are really dedicated and try to beat the hardest content right away, but most are just there to relax and have fun and they don't really care about finishing TOMM the first week of launch. I find this more relaxed attitude to be far preferable.
And yes, for me, "most groups" would be a random PUG group. My opinion is that if the members of a randomly selected team meet the entrance requirement for a dungeon, that that team should have at least a 50% chance of finishing the dungeon successfully. That was my experience back in the Mod 1/2 days of running T2 dungeons, and yes most of the time when I did T2 dungeons back then, it was with random PUG teams. The exception was Old CN, but even then, a random team could still have a pretty good chance of defeating at least the first boss or two, and get some reward for the effort. If the devs want to make dungeons as hard as TOMM, then there should be some type of reward for partial completion, just like Old CN. So, if a team finishes just the first phase of TOMM, the team should get something like a +3 or +4 ring (probably should be a bound ring, otherwise there will be all sorts of toxic behavior). Or perhaps some other currency that players on those teams can *eventually* use to get a higher tier reward. Maybe bring back the Weapon Fragment idea from original MC/VT - have something like a 2% chance for a random weapon fragment to drop from Phase 1 and if you get all three fragments you can get the Lionheart Weapon that way.
And I disagree that FBI at launch was easier than T2 dungeons. With FBI at launch, teams would fail at *just the hill climb part*. I was in teams that could not get past first boss of FBI. But the real indication that FBI was harder than the T2 dungeons, was that it was nearly impossible to find a random group willing to take you in to FBI unless you were at near-BIS status already, UNLIKE the T2 dungeon days.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited December 2019
First, a correction in order, I didn't start it, nor I'm a member for a while now.
You called me an elitist jerk, not someone, me, for trying to explain you how to do the codg push pull, or more exactly saying that it was nerfed and now you can walk it, and not dodge. I may still have the screenshots somewhere of that pleasantries. Like I've said, some things I can't remember even if I try, and some things I do not forget.
Second, no, you didn't make proper group, because it was "just training runs" (yes, you said so, that it doesn't matter because it is training run), you had a mess of classes, no debuffs, no buffs. I knew exactly what went there, and who was there. Making a random group without care to fill even the basic roles is not a difficult content, sorry, it is lack of proper group making, and I don't mean UVHDPS 7868543K IL, but at the time, classes and buffs had meaning.
I believe you are mistaken, 1 instance, we were all now in ToMM (who could be). But where your mistake is, is that we didn't do it 1 week after release, hell, we still have a lot of trouble doing it, and started doing live only recently, we just try to get it done as a group, a guild. We do not recruit by item level, or by gameplay skill, or any game related metric, but by attitude, and interaction, and it has costs, and trade offs.
I don't know where this assumption comes from, back in the day, a random pug group was the worst experience conceivable, and the chance of success is minimal. But in any case, why would a random group, which is already on average on the bottom of our capability distribution will have 50% chance with minimal requirements? I never could understand that assumption, or request. Solo PuG that just met requirements should have 90% fail rate. There are few factors that dictate success, communication / team work, gear / build (making a char), skill / roation. Each, can compensate for another. A group that starts with negative team work and mostly 0 communication, with players who at the time knew nothing about proper builds (otherwise most didn't random queued, they learned better once familiarized with the game), and skill, which in this context I'll also throw into experience, in MMOS and NW, where many players who got familiar with what goes against what moved on from public Queue. Some ofc didn't make the transition, but those are minority, in large people either quit, or found other grouping avenues.
A recommended IL should result in 50% - 50% chance, and success depending on the team work and skill. Minimal to enter, is what it is minimal to enter.
Yet you know that by Cryptic numbers most content has over 90% completion rate? Look for no worries post on the subject, it was in the context of random queues changes.
So I don't know if fortunately or unfortunately, but I'm not in some privileged bubble, I've used to group the exact same place that was available to you, /legit, but I insisted to not pug, and you insisted on solo puging.
In the current alliance which will be the third I am in, most of the players are new. And when I say new, I mean REALLY new, and yet, runs are done, with patience, wipes here and there, and failures here and there, but at the end, it goes well. Because people try, they form groups, communicated, and help each other. This is not some special bubble, this is the minimum I would expect from any alliance or guild, or whatever.
I don't know what guilds you were in except the current one (unless that changed recently), but I've been a for a while in NW, and at least most of the guilds at least aim to do content together. A guild can be very nice, but if you login and need to go and pug, then the there is a problem and if you login and choose to pug instead of doing the effort of making a guild group, then it is a failure on both sides and something really not well. This is not some poke against your guild, this is as general concept and belief.
That is the base, doing ToMM or whatever comes later, first you do FBI, as a group.
PS Your current guild, and mine, (And others ofc) were in the same alliance at the day of alliance inception, and I, and some others, were in your guild open channel until long ago.
About last part, old dungeons were significantly harder, how many groups got stopped at Karru first boss? That fire giant woman. How many couldn't deal with mad dragon heals? SP? Premades failed. People farmed pirate king, because the rest was too hard.
Groups can't fail on the climb in FBI, it doesn't reset, you kill one giant, wipe, and kill the next, it is literally doable one kill at a time. You can quit there thought which many do prematurely looking for the fastest run. But yes, I've been in failed runs everywhere, so? I just don't go and ask for content nerfs or blame others, I learn and improve, and try to help others do the same.
Please wake up. People run stuff, people complete stuff, people do what the base of MMOs require them to do (and as much as some resist and dislike it) they socialize and form communities, guilds, and so on. Queuing alone is not the reality for most players, and if it becomes one, NW needs to close its doors, as construction of social groups is the main retention mechanism around. There was just a discussion about tomm on reddit, and I"ve checked, 50 people running at a time of the check, and 20 guilds, and at weekend it was even busier. But ToMM is not the metric and not the topic (between us), you requested nerfs to all content in the name of the pug groups. Please, for once, try focusing on strengthening your guild, take people to runs, and you may discover, that with persistence, and some stubbornness, a group can get through the hill in FBI, or a guild can learn to do ToMM even if it takes half year and still with failures. And perhaps even more, you will find out that doing things with friends, even if slower than other veraities, is more rewarding, and the game in general is less about farming the next worthless group of pixels, but the experience you have with other people.
I don't know where this assumption comes from, back in the day, a random pug group was the worst experience conceivable, and the chance of success is minimal.
This description does not describe my experience. It was YOUR experience, but it wasn't MY experience. Please try to see this. I think this is part of the problem here. Your experiences aren't necessarily generalizable to everyone who plays this game. Including this:
Groups can't fail on the climb in FBI, it doesn't reset, you kill one giant, wipe, and kill the next, it is literally doable one kill at a time.
I SAW GROUPS FAIL ON THE HILL CLIMB IN FBI. I saw it with my own eyes. Groups that could not kill a group of giants + bears + orcs in a particular segment of the hill climb. Maybe that never ever ever happened to you. If so, good for you. But I've seen it happen. This tended to happen at the first group of mobs on the second plateau. Because if a person dies, then it is a long ride from the campfire back to the mobs, and if everyone dies, the mobs reset. Please acknowledge that there are other experiences beyond the ones that you experience. This is part of the privilege bubble that you seem to be in. Because you didn't experience it, you assume that it never happens. Please just LISTEN to other people when they describe their experiences. That is all I ask.
There was just a discussion about tomm on reddit, and I"ve checked, 50 people running at a time of the check, and 20 guilds, and at weekend it was even busier.
So 50 players distributed among 20 guilds in 5 different TOMM instances. Which just proves my point. Each guild has a couple of very dedicated players and they come together outside of their guilds to form TOMM groups. How many of those 5 TOMM instances had all 10 players from the same guild?
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
The Took is gonna start crying if "Mom and Dad" keep fighting.
Jeff is the heart and soul of the "average joe" of NW. He inspires shmoes like Took to keep playing.
Micky is the scientific mind with deep knowledge of the maths and the mechanics. She inspires dimwits like Took to test and theorycraft.
We need you both for this game to survive.
Took wishes to arbitrate. We have heard where you disagree. Let's start with common ground then work outward. Tell us where you agree on the topic of this thread. Can you both state aspects of the other's opinion you AGREE with?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
Making this super-hard-core elitist content only brings out the worst in people. Aren't there already enough games out there that have this type of environment? Why does Neverwinter have to be in the same camp?
I guess it might bring out the worst, but that's not all it does - it also brings out the best.
I haven't had a chance or need to pay for a run. I've only just started playing ToMM, and I'm pretty slow (rubbish) at working my way through to a better and better completion %. Despite the risks of a failed run from taking a new player along, I've found a great bunch of guys n gals that are very giving and forgiving. It's been the most positive gaming experience I've had for a while
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited December 2019
It was the experience of the largest channel at the time, yes that one, that many fled into (mod 2-4) because players either exploited, or failed. This is why it was so successful, and please, don't forget I'm playing this longer than you, I've pugged it all, being at zerg channels and off. You can't have it both ways, you can't complain that the success rate is lower than what you expect at 50% and then say it is all sunshine.
Go look at general content people run, people form core groups in their alliances and guild, want RTQ? Alliances form those all the time, and so on. Don't believe me? Look up, how many same alliance or friends or whatever per instance, and then ask yourself how is that per devs data, as was posted, the completion rates are 90%+, 80%+ and even the outliers like the older broken tiamat had 60%+ (before the last changes which were done to correct that)
So do tell me, who is in the bubble? No matter how bubbly I am, the numbers show that the vast majority of the player base run things successfully.
In your world, having friends and community is a taboo (yes, take a look at your own reddit posts). I'm sorry, but no, you don't need to be a skilled player (I'm not), you need to understand the difference between MMO and solo game, and the core difference was in those 3 pillars I've explained, Team work / communication, gear / build, skill / execution. Some are great at all 3, some are only in few, I've picked the first as focus and it allows me to complete whatever with mediocre gear (relative terms to the content), and even more mediocre skill. This is what guilds, alliance, community discords and everyone else do, except you.
Your guild doesn't run, help organize runs, or move guild. BTW like yours, ours using a custom channel, to allow people to be in time zone guild, or guilds they don't want to leave while still also be with us. Communities are not about exclusivity but about allowing people to have fun and enjoy the game.
Please enough with the twisting, you claim that I have some uber guild that I don't know what? No, sorry, no. (as much as I do would love to consider us the best at everything) There are guilds that complete ToMM in guild / in alliance only, THC, Toms guild (Natsu, and I can't spell their guild name), Civil Anarchy I think did alliance completion, and others. Some did it early, some did it recently, we are not them, I've explained this before, the difference between me and you for example, will be that I keep organizing and trying, and failing, until we get it done, with the casual group of plebs that we are. Because that is what gaming about.
You give up before you even tried. You know that you can gear to whatever you want on preview, and try... Here a novel idea, How about doing a guild thing, set a time, explain everyone how to get to preview, organize some gear, and do some guild event each weekend, ToMM attempts or "Learn the m18 dungeon".
Some guilds have few people who push to the top, some have more, some are organized to accommodate being at the top (THC) and some cater to RP or new players. All that is not relevant, your constant issue is with years old content, which you fail, and is not a normal experience for players, and again, that was demonstrated by simple completion rate numbers.
To quote: "The queue maps that had poor completion rates were the ones called out earlier in the thread, everything else has very high completion rates and the majority have above 90%. " (FBI is not one of the poor completion rated maps, CR, Tiamat, bank heist, and some others.)
"LoMM is a good example of that. On PC it is up to an 87% completion rate (public not private matches), while on console it is closer to 80% due to it being newer and players are still gearing up in the new stat structure. It also has a 38 minute average run time on PC, which is one of the highest. That does indicate that a decent portion of the population is still struggling with this dungeon. In this case though, that is expected as for console it is the highest piece of content in the game and on PC it is still the second highest piece of content. The expert queue is meant to be a place players are challenged."
This repeats every time, please once consider that perhaps your experience is not what the majority of the player base experience. Yes, which is what you try to argue about me, but I have the numbers and experience in multiple alliances, and being in almost every public NW related thing, from Facebook groups to discords, to channels, to back up my impression.
FBI: Except that that group doesn't reset. You can quit it, you can die there, you can do many things, but the only way to fail it, if the entire group wipes and didn't manage to kill a single mob, if so then they had an issue in the communication department, no one waited for the others, didn't focus mobs, didn't focus that orc which calls for help, and so on. Or the tank thinks they are dps. And dps that they are tank. The difference is in a case like that I'll take matters to my hands, explain to people what to do, and stick there until it gets done to the best of my ability.
Sounds nice, but it's not as general as you make it seem to be @micky1p00 ... or at least from what I heard and have seen. I have seen/experienced great training runs, I have had communication, but often impatience and elitism, too. As you probably still know, I pugged my share, and often it was simply because I don't like RQs, and for some times that was the only thing my past alliances did... It is not so easy to find a guild that meets one's needs completely. Sometimes, that means I'm rushed more than I would like, other times it means I need to be more patient than I'm in the mood for, but thats okay, communication is key. Only that at the end of the day when I can't find people to run what I'd like to run (or what I couldn't do at the time it was meta and now it's extinct) I still end up with pugs. Thats okay. We are gonna do our best. (I do not recall having anything dungeon-related explained to me in a halfway nice way besides my first lomm. Sounds nice being new running with you) But I have also noticed that I cannot do with the way many many bis players are going about difficult content. You might know differently with people that communicate well and well... have some sort of mature personality, but I have also seen different when it comes to endgame, also with tomm - and its a bit disheartening. I can see those arguments. I'm actually positively surprised by every post in which you state how down-to-earth your experiences seem.
But for me personally, I wouldn't consider switching guilds I have been with for such a long time just because it wouldn't provide me with similar minded people for premade. We are all far too different people and many are far more driven to finish every piece of content in a fast manner than me. What I really mean: its a matter of pace and also, in regards to tomm, whether to experience content second-hand or trying it out for yourself before. A matter of how goal- and how story-oriented people are.
I wouldn't say that people wanna play this game solo. I think its hard to find a way to play it in a way everybody in the same group is comfortable with. We can't all meet each others "needs". Most people I vibe with are not here anymore, and when I run with new people, I of course try to adjust to the pace and the abilities. But when its challenging content I personally found it hard to find new people that are not quick to judge and quick to kick.
That's of course my own fault, may it be unwillingness to really search for new people or inability to run the most important content of each mod (I usually lag behind 1 mod) but there are so many fish in the sea, I don't just "find" people that I wanna run with and that wanna run with me constantly.
So whatever I was trying to say; if you are right and the majority is fine then great! I sure hope so! NW needs some ppl playing should they really wanna stick around for another few years. I have talked to and seen people quit with tomm, because they came back for it and got ready for it and thats how far they got. But I'm not them, so I can't argue if it was their people skills (I like them, if that tells you something about their ppl skills, or mine lol) or tomm. But maybe one day I'll get back to it and notice that it was indeed just a lack of communication or dedication or whatever. You are probably right, even if you are generalizing. (Like, organizing guild preview tests and stuff like that.)
- bye bye -
2
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I'm not saying that everything is sunshine and rainbows, there are issues in everything, and like I wrote earlier, I saw good things, and I was disappointed as I was expecting more out of people, from guild leaders, to people who are skilled, and so on.
The above argument with ChemJeff goes eons ago, long long before ToMM, though a lot does apply to ToMM, the discourse is more general.
I completely understand that sometimes people just want to press a button and enter a dungeon, or just can't find the people to run with them something they want to do, so they pug, if it via queue system or other ways. The disagreement will be, what happens next, and how much it happens.
My point is that with a global look of things, most players do not pug when given other options.
And that entering a dungeon with random people, where you (general) not over-gearing it significantly (less possible now with the caps) will put you at a disadvantage, yet the success rate, currently, is not abysmal as some portray it, and more so doing so with a group at minimal requirements should not give the expectation of 50% chance of success but it should be lower.
There is a high completion rate, that reinforces the above scenario, which is the disagreement here, where Chemjeff claims that his experience (solo pug) is the typical one, with the failures of years old content.
I agree that everyone have their pace, and priorities, and different interests even in the same common little pond we call NW. And the same with guilds, some prefer smaller guilds (we are one) knowing that it hurts the availability of people, some prefer larger, some end-game, some more casual and so many more less game related aspects.
It is a choice of tradeoffs, and at the end, this is why I dislike the above attitude (not yours), If I would choose one over another, and choose not to do something about it, like for example a super casual guild, then it is my choice, I would not complain "Make end-game available at lunch for everyone, super casual too" This, "You know a theorycrafter, then it explains it all, you must be in a bubble, the rest have different experience", is just false on this extent, we make our trade offs, and our choices, and if someone doesn't make the connections and community they are comfortable to overcome difficulty then why the blame the world? It was a personal choice of tradeoffs. (again this is an explanation of the discussion before and not aimed at you)
Anyway, trailed off, if you do want to give tomm training a try (and it may end up good experience or bad, no promises), feel free to contact me, in-game or discord (trainings are on preview, so gear can be upgraded easily). I do hope you play something dpsish and in EUish timezones though.
Thank you for reaching out and explaining it to me, you are right of course. I can see how things are put in perspective, e.g. if I run a pug in MC or run a pug in folly, the completion rates are of course high, as it usually is enough if there is 1-2 halfway good dps. Completion rates for more difficult content shouldn't be over 90% (if that really is the case) with pugs, otherwise one might think the content is too easy to pull off with complete strangers and no communication.
If there is no new content and no possible progression in usual casual-player-content or systems, they (we) might also end up bored and suddenly start side-eyeing endgame content (or ancient content before just sitting around) and well... Have no existing groups/channels/friends that want to help with that type of sudden endeavour :'D I also saw old content fail, due to multiple reasons, always pugged, but mostly because communication wasn't possible. That makes times like these with people on breaks and lots of new people in pugs (that suddenly can run nearly everything) more difficult. But yes, the easiest solution to this is premade. I didn't want to step between "mom and dad fighting" xP
1. I never said "friends are taboo" (lol). What I complained about, was that given the transition in Mod 10 to super-hard dungeons, and the buffing meta that also emerged, was that the strength of one's friends list became disproportionately more important than the strength of one's own character. You could have the best DPS character on the server but if you didn't also have 4 buffers on speed-dial willing to help you out, you might as well have the worst character on the server. And so DPS characters who were NOT in the top tier (such as myself), stood no chance in this environment. That was my complaint. At least state it accurately if you are going to attempt to argue against it. 2. I never claimed that failures in old content was TYPICAL of what I experience TODAY. Most of the time, today, when I solo pug content, it is successfully completed. That includes FBI, even CoDG now (since the consequences from the push/pull were basically eliminated). The 90% completion rate that you cited is broadly consistent with what I experience as well. So do not claim that I think that random pug groups fail today left and right with old content, because that is not what I claim.
And I am also not saying that TOMM should be available to everyone, I am not saying give everyone a trophy, I am saying mainly in my arguments that choosing to solo queue for dungeons shouldn't be regarded as some mark of shame, and that random groups shouldn't be treated poorly just for that reason alone.
"And that entering a dungeon with random people, where you (general) not over-gearing it significantly (less possible now with the caps) will put you at a disadvantage, yet the success rate, currently, is not abysmal as some portray it, and more so doing so with a group at minimal requirements should not give the expectation of 50% chance of success but it should be lower. "
Why should it be lower? My argument is essentially statistical in nature: if you have a randomly-selected group of people asked to perform a task, where the threshold for successfully performing the task rests somewhere around the median of the group, then one would expect the net result of these trials to be about 50/50.
I get the impression that you think teamwork & cooperation should be a MANDATORY component for dungeons. That if the team doesn't actively cooperate on some level - not just that everyone independently knows the mechanics, but that the team should communicate and cooperate with each other in real time - that the team should stand a very high chance of failure. Is that the case?
And @dread4moor thank you for your comments. This isn't really "mom and dad fighting", just two people with a disagreement.
And yes, for me, "most groups" would be a random PUG group. My opinion is that if the members of a randomly selected team meet the entrance requirement for a dungeon, that that team should have at least a 50% chance of finishing the dungeon successfully
The answer is simple; then TOMM would be way too easy to complete. The whole purpose of TOMM was to introduce the most difficulty dungeon for hardcore gamers, something they had never experienced, and whilst content should always be accessible for the masses, the fact remains that Cryptic is considerably lacking in manpower. So a simple solution to this would have been to tone down TOMM and the rewards, by grading it into difficulties, but looking at the class UN-balance as of right now, I think we should just be happy if they actually listen to the community and balance classes. Random Pug = no communication + hardly no synergy/ coordination, in stark contrast to the design of TOMM. Even if they nerf Halaster, i still don't think random PUG will ever work, especially without a caller!
But in short, TOMM with a random group would be extreme and an utter walk in the park. It might as well then be content for the casuals and not for hardcore players. But you do bring up a good argument, it requires a pletheora of resources and communication, familiarity and even knowledge of your class (especially if you want to grind it for profit) but that is not a fault in TOMM in itself, it does what it was intended to do, that is more of a accessibility issue and somewhere balance. Cryptic needs to work on balancing first, and then make content more accessible. You can find more information on this in the CDP topic "accessibility".
Even if it doesnt violate the TOS, I find this entirely disgusting, just like I find charging guildies for *remaining* in a guild over time disgusting (donations on join make sense to weed out guild hoppers). I will have nothing to do with this and encourage my guildies and the entire game to not have it either. Andorra Bell Guild Leader The Holy Crusaders
Disgusting? Really?
In that case you can call every MCrafter selling his created items a disgusting as well.
I doubt I'm gona be wrong here, but I belive leveling a toon to full mastercrafting in all specs is even harder and more expensive and time/resources consuming then learning how to run TOMM.
I've made couple of hundreds of MC weapons, rings etc when those were BIS. Few of those I gave to my friends for free, when those were expensive I tried to make them for my guildies for free from their own materials (so using my skilled toon and best crafting items and potions out there for free).
But about 95% of these items I sold to paying customers. I dont care what are their reasons. I dont care if ADs they paid me are form farming or ZEN exchange.
I know that they were able to try to level up MC same as I did - but from different reasons - they choose not to.
So they had oportunity AND CHOOSE to buy those items from me or any other MCrafter out there. Simple as that.... cant find anything disgusting in that....
I aloso havent seen anythng disgusting in selling Tyrant armor or weapon set or aby other hunts related items.
Do you really feel disgusted in real life when you have to pay for something you cant create or make yourself? Really?
P.S. Just for the record - I am having a vacation from NV. I log irregulary to collect a key. So I never been to TOMM and I dont care about it too much
But if I decide to came back and those TOMM weapons stll would be worth getting I wont mind to go and buy myself oportunity to get them. Heck I belive I will have a chance to buy something from players who bought so much items from me back in a days:D.
Comments
> "...sending more and more ppl who are not ready for Tomm.
But who now have the weapons so they now EXP and get in groups and Hamster it up."
Having weapons does not make you "exp".
Wallet Warriors will almost never have a perfectly logical gear-out and build.
One "inspection" can easily identify a wallet warrior: random high-end BoE gear.
And you should be posting "exp only" in your LFG anyway.
Don't want to run with a wallet warrior?
Don't invite them to your party.
Done.
The wallet warriors will run with their own friends, guilds, alliances or PUGs that don't mind their inexperience.
So, how does that affect you?
It doesn't.
Live and let live.
> @groo111 said:
"So this is a double edged sword yall"
False assumption.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white
It"s not binary:
There are many shaded of grey between pure FTP and pure wallet warrior.
It's not mutually inclusive:
Not every player with purchased endgame gear is inexperienced.
> @groo111 said:
"The AD you make... undercutting war will escalate. "
So?
That's Econ 101. Supply and demand.
The true experiencep FTP still have first-mover advantage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-mover_advantage
The rockstars who slaved away on preview, tested and mastered the new content make a killing. Good on them.
They earned it.
Casual players master it next. A few will buy weapons. Too expensive for most. They grind it, earn weapons and fill the game with exp players. Now they start farming, driving the price down.
By the time the hapless wallet warriors are farming TOMM the AH is saturated. Price is low.
Good. They don't deserve to make millions and they don't need milliins anyway.
How is that a problem?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
It has been that way since at least Mod 10, with the big change to "super-hard dungeons" like FBI, instead of dungeons that could be finished by most groups.
I distinctly recall, in Mod 13, when CODG was the newest super-hard content, and right after when the "logout" exploit was fixed, there were evidently only a few people remaining who knew how to do the push-pull legit. So they, for a time, had a near-monopoly on the gold Enchanting Stones that dropped from there (they also dropped from TONG but much more rarely) - these were the TOMM rings of the moment. I would see their comments in public channels about selling the gold Enchanting Stones for as high a price as possible, and berating players who undercut the price too much. I have no doubt they engaged in some of the toxic behavior that we see today with TOMM.
Making this super-hard-core elitist content only brings out the worst in people. Aren't there already enough games out there that have this type of environment? Why does Neverwinter have to be in the same camp?
You have to look at this from all points of view. Are you doing enough to make your character ready to undertake this content or are you trying to sneak by with very little effort on your part to be prepared? This can rub some players the wrong way because they have taken the time, so why haven't you? Some times you need to ask yourself if it's rude to try and run content that you aren't ready for instead of expect everyone in the queue group to just accept that your character isn't ready.
I refused to run CoDG when it first came out because I didn't know how to handle the push pull until I mentioned it during a different dungeon run when the party was asked if everyone wanted to run it after we were finished. I told them I suck at push pull and wouldn't want to ruin the run. But they said they would teach me how to handle it and they did. After that I ran it constantly. I got lucky on getting that help but I also gave them chances to go with someone else rather than remain silent and leave the party assuming I could handle myself.
I have seen many times where players try to sneak into dungeons that they aren't ready for and they aren't even considerate enough to just state that they are new and are still trying to learn the mechanics. I respect players who admit that they are still in the learning phase, the patience is lost when they say nothing and it becomes obvious after a short time that they don't know the mechanics. This is when its annoying because things could have been prepared mean while what was wasted during a failed attempt?
There are training runs for ToMM open to everyone, and there people from the original first group that finished that I can ask for help and they will help.
The main distinction between us and our position is that while you refuse to recognize it, is that my guild is not some elite uber uhdps whatever, but players with families, children, and obligations, with 95% are 35+ age. And still I aim to get everyone who is interested through, with almost daily trainings (or more correctly when I can get 10 players with the above restrictions), after half year we are mostly finally there, as a group.
Community is what you make of it, and in mine we will make those runs with pleb Barbies, and arbiter DC and whoever and whatever, may take longer, maybe some improvisations, some compromises, but it will be done.
Our interaction, beyond the lovely comments on that one popular blog, started on the topic of CoDG, and I distinctly remember it. There is a group of people who were / are willing to help players, as much as they can, and you choose to throw everyone into the same "Elitist jerks" bin and do so with choice words, please do not complain that no one is willing to help you after that.
Yet Sharp went to that training CoDG attempt right after, and yet you didn't take it seriously enough that the random group composition didn't even get pass the elevator.
But anyway, this is offtopic, some things I have very long memory for, but I really shouldn't go into that,.
Tier 1, 2 dungeons were harder at their time than FBI. CN was significantly harder at its time than FBI. We argued about this on many occasions, and at the end, for you "most groups" are random solo pugs, while this is not reality if to look at any functioning alliance or into the game population in general. And "most groups" in the general sense, can actually finish anything with no issues, and could do so at the relevant time, even if it took couple of wipes, and some adapting, except ToMM which indeed needs work and training.
> Lol thx for all those exciting explanations of real life terms . Everyone has opinions.
Supply and demand is not an opinion.
Price elasticity is not an opinion.
First-mover advantage is not an opinion.
These are quantifiable laws of economics. You can see proof of these laws in the NW AH .
Making BoE gear sellable on AH does not hurt the economy. Fact. Measurable. Not opinion.
> @groo111 said:
> I'd rather help then get paid.
Gotta push back on this statement.
"Either you're a greedy AH farmer ... OR ... you're an altruistic angel of mercy selflessly helping others."
False dichotomy.
Took learned ToMM from others on preview. Those same ezperts are farming ToMM today.
All of the best guides for ToMM are based on the testing by these hardcore preview players.
Your Alliance training runs are teaching mechanics they decifered.
Most of us wouldn't have a clue how the mechanics work without their efforts on preview.
Many of them still support training runs.
And farm rings.
At the same time.
Not binary.
Propper respect to you for the training runs. Keep up the good work.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
All other items that drop from chest rewards, dungeon completion rewards(not currency like demonic icor), items from starlight parcels, or gift of simril groups should be 100% unbound on pick up. There are already several items that are unbound in this game that are sellable/tradeable, and items from chest drops should NOT be BtA/BtC on pick up. BtA at worst on equip, fine, especially items bought with any kind of currency, including but not limited to ad zen, or whatever the currency du jour is this mod...
I personally will probably skip farming the ToMM weapons. I can't remember the set bonus right now, but I remember thinking "meh", I was the same way with the watcher weapons. However I do want to run ToMM once just to notch my bedpost so to speak, but that look near impossible on xbox right now.
Pretty much.
I actually found myself in CoDG the other week and explained I hadn't been there before and had no idea what to do. Yeah my bad.
Zero response from the party.
I offered to leave if it was going to spoil the run [I got dragged in from a RQ they were half way through] as my barbie "tank" isn't fabulous at tanking.
Zero response.
We finished off the last Boss pretty easily to my amazement.
But going back on topic - there should be way more items unbound and that would help the mid range players get to top range quicker. Maybe that isn't a popular opinion. But it is mine and I am sticking to it.
Make every drop unbound for the duration of the Winter Festival would be a great Christmas Present.
HO HO HO
I recall that you helped to start a channel, NW_Legit_Community, that was *originally*, back in Mod 1 or so, a very helpful place for players to get advice and help and exploit-free dungeon runs. The population of that channel changed over time, so that by Mod 13 or so, that place was nothing like what it was back when you started it. There were still a few helpful players, but from my perception anyway, it had a lot more players, *including known exploiters* (kinda ironic for a "Legit" channel), who would prefer to sit around and lecture everyone else on what to do. And yes they were being elitist jerks about it. Because I called out the bad behavior of some of those players on the channel you started, you chose to take it personally as some criticism *of you*. I did not criticize you. I criticized them. I am and continue to be appreciative of your work. But not everyone on that channel were as helpful as you. Far from it.
And since you chose not to go on the training run that I organized, you don't really have first hand knowledge of what happened. I will let Sharp speak to his experience if he chooses to do so. But yes our team did not get very far. I tried my best in that attempt and I'm insulted that you think I didn't take it seriously enough. It was a *training run*. What was I supposed to do, ask for EXP for a training run? A more thoughtful reflection on that event might lead someone to conclude "hey, maybe that content is harder than I originally thought". But no you chose to take it as an indictment of me. Because you are perpetually offended by a misunderstanding from years ago and you refuse to let it go.
Lastly, @micky1p00 , I think you live in a bubble of privilege that you don't even seem to realize. You have built a strong guild and you should be very proud of what you have done. Just realize that most other guilds don't have the same level of achievement that you have for yours. Your experience is not typical nor normal. It is way above average. I just now checked who was participating in TOMM runs, and of the seven active instances, two of them had players from your guild in them. I think that is a remarkable achievement. How many other guilds do you think can make that claim? Not many. I would be surprised if there were more than 10 people in my entire alliance that have finished TOMM. I don't say this to ask for pity or anything. I say this simply to put into perspective what you have done. I have been in a few other guilds, other than my current one, and my experience with those has been similar to what I experience now: there are maybe 2-3 players who are really dedicated and try to beat the hardest content right away, but most are just there to relax and have fun and they don't really care about finishing TOMM the first week of launch. I find this more relaxed attitude to be far preferable.
And yes, for me, "most groups" would be a random PUG group. My opinion is that if the members of a randomly selected team meet the entrance requirement for a dungeon, that that team should have at least a 50% chance of finishing the dungeon successfully. That was my experience back in the Mod 1/2 days of running T2 dungeons, and yes most of the time when I did T2 dungeons back then, it was with random PUG teams. The exception was Old CN, but even then, a random team could still have a pretty good chance of defeating at least the first boss or two, and get some reward for the effort. If the devs want to make dungeons as hard as TOMM, then there should be some type of reward for partial completion, just like Old CN. So, if a team finishes just the first phase of TOMM, the team should get something like a +3 or +4 ring (probably should be a bound ring, otherwise there will be all sorts of toxic behavior). Or perhaps some other currency that players on those teams can *eventually* use to get a higher tier reward. Maybe bring back the Weapon Fragment idea from original MC/VT - have something like a 2% chance for a random weapon fragment to drop from Phase 1 and if you get all three fragments you can get the Lionheart Weapon that way.
And I disagree that FBI at launch was easier than T2 dungeons. With FBI at launch, teams would fail at *just the hill climb part*. I was in teams that could not get past first boss of FBI. But the real indication that FBI was harder than the T2 dungeons, was that it was nearly impossible to find a random group willing to take you in to FBI unless you were at near-BIS status already, UNLIKE the T2 dungeon days.
You called me an elitist jerk, not someone, me, for trying to explain you how to do the codg push pull, or more exactly saying that it was nerfed and now you can walk it, and not dodge. I may still have the screenshots somewhere of that pleasantries.
Like I've said, some things I can't remember even if I try, and some things I do not forget.
Second, no, you didn't make proper group, because it was "just training runs" (yes, you said so, that it doesn't matter because it is training run), you had a mess of classes, no debuffs, no buffs. I knew exactly what went there, and who was there.
Making a random group without care to fill even the basic roles is not a difficult content, sorry, it is lack of proper group making, and I don't mean UVHDPS 7868543K IL, but at the time, classes and buffs had meaning.
I believe you are mistaken, 1 instance, we were all now in ToMM (who could be). But where your mistake is, is that we didn't do it 1 week after release, hell, we still have a lot of trouble doing it, and started doing live only recently, we just try to get it done as a group, a guild.
We do not recruit by item level, or by gameplay skill, or any game related metric, but by attitude, and interaction, and it has costs, and trade offs.
I don't know where this assumption comes from, back in the day, a random pug group was the worst experience conceivable, and the chance of success is minimal. But in any case, why would a random group, which is already on average on the bottom of our capability distribution will have 50% chance with minimal requirements?
I never could understand that assumption, or request. Solo PuG that just met requirements should have 90% fail rate. There are few factors that dictate success, communication / team work, gear / build (making a char), skill / roation. Each, can compensate for another. A group that starts with negative team work and mostly 0 communication, with players who at the time knew nothing about proper builds (otherwise most didn't random queued, they learned better once familiarized with the game), and skill, which in this context I'll also throw into experience, in MMOS and NW, where many players who got familiar with what goes against what moved on from public Queue. Some ofc didn't make the transition, but those are minority, in large people either quit, or found other grouping avenues.
A recommended IL should result in 50% - 50% chance, and success depending on the team work and skill. Minimal to enter, is what it is minimal to enter.
Yet you know that by Cryptic numbers most content has over 90% completion rate? Look for no worries post on the subject, it was in the context of random queues changes.
So I don't know if fortunately or unfortunately, but I'm not in some privileged bubble, I've used to group the exact same place that was available to you, /legit, but I insisted to not pug, and you insisted on solo puging.
In the current alliance which will be the third I am in, most of the players are new. And when I say new, I mean REALLY new, and yet, runs are done, with patience, wipes here and there, and failures here and there, but at the end, it goes well. Because people try, they form groups, communicated, and help each other. This is not some special bubble, this is the minimum I would expect from any alliance or guild, or whatever.
I don't know what guilds you were in except the current one (unless that changed recently), but I've been a for a while in NW, and at least most of the guilds at least aim to do content together. A guild can be very nice, but if you login and need to go and pug, then the there is a problem and if you login and choose to pug instead of doing the effort of making a guild group, then it is a failure on both sides and something really not well. This is not some poke against your guild, this is as general concept and belief.
That is the base, doing ToMM or whatever comes later, first you do FBI, as a group.
PS Your current guild, and mine, (And others ofc) were in the same alliance at the day of alliance inception, and I, and some others, were in your guild open channel until long ago.
About last part, old dungeons were significantly harder, how many groups got stopped at Karru first boss? That fire giant woman. How many couldn't deal with mad dragon heals? SP? Premades failed. People farmed pirate king, because the rest was too hard.
Groups can't fail on the climb in FBI, it doesn't reset, you kill one giant, wipe, and kill the next, it is literally doable one kill at a time. You can quit there thought which many do prematurely looking for the fastest run. But yes, I've been in failed runs everywhere, so? I just don't go and ask for content nerfs or blame others, I learn and improve, and try to help others do the same.
Please wake up. People run stuff, people complete stuff, people do what the base of MMOs require them to do (and as much as some resist and dislike it) they socialize and form communities, guilds, and so on.
Queuing alone is not the reality for most players, and if it becomes one, NW needs to close its doors, as construction of social groups is the main retention mechanism around.
There was just a discussion about tomm on reddit, and I"ve checked, 50 people running at a time of the check, and 20 guilds, and at weekend it was even busier. But ToMM is not the metric and not the topic (between us), you requested nerfs to all content in the name of the pug groups. Please, for once, try focusing on strengthening your guild, take people to runs, and you may discover, that with persistence, and some stubbornness, a group can get through the hill in FBI, or a guild can learn to do ToMM even if it takes half year and still with failures. And perhaps even more, you will find out that doing things with friends, even if slower than other veraities, is more rewarding, and the game in general is less about farming the next worthless group of pixels, but the experience you have with other people.
But I will just say this: This description does not describe my experience. It was YOUR experience, but it wasn't MY experience. Please try to see this. I think this is part of the problem here. Your experiences aren't necessarily generalizable to everyone who plays this game. Including this: I SAW GROUPS FAIL ON THE HILL CLIMB IN FBI. I saw it with my own eyes. Groups that could not kill a group of giants + bears + orcs in a particular segment of the hill climb. Maybe that never ever ever happened to you. If so, good for you. But I've seen it happen. This tended to happen at the first group of mobs on the second plateau. Because if a person dies, then it is a long ride from the campfire back to the mobs, and if everyone dies, the mobs reset. Please acknowledge that there are other experiences beyond the ones that you experience. This is part of the privilege bubble that you seem to be in. Because you didn't experience it, you assume that it never happens. Please just LISTEN to other people when they describe their experiences. That is all I ask.
@chemjeff @micky1p00 ,
The Took respects you both.
Jeff is the heart and soul of the "average joe" of NW. He inspires shmoes like Took to keep playing.
Micky is the scientific mind with deep knowledge of the maths and the mechanics. She inspires dimwits like Took to test and theorycraft.
We need you both for this game to survive.
Took wishes to arbitrate.
We have heard where you disagree.
Let's start with common ground then work outward.
Tell us where you agree on the topic of this thread. Can you both state aspects of the other's opinion you AGREE with?
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
I haven't had a chance or need to pay for a run. I've only just started playing ToMM, and I'm pretty slow (rubbish) at working my way through to a better and better completion %.
Despite the risks of a failed run from taking a new player along, I've found a great bunch of guys n gals that are very giving and forgiving.
It's been the most positive gaming experience I've had for a while
This is why it was so successful, and please, don't forget I'm playing this longer than you, I've pugged it all, being at zerg channels and off.
You can't have it both ways, you can't complain that the success rate is lower than what you expect at 50% and then say it is all sunshine.
Go look at general content people run, people form core groups in their alliances and guild, want RTQ? Alliances form those all the time, and so on. Don't believe me? Look up, how many same alliance or friends or whatever per instance, and then ask yourself how is that per devs data, as was posted, the completion rates are 90%+, 80%+ and even the outliers like the older broken tiamat had 60%+ (before the last changes which were done to correct that)
So do tell me, who is in the bubble? No matter how bubbly I am, the numbers show that the vast majority of the player base run things successfully.
In your world, having friends and community is a taboo (yes, take a look at your own reddit posts). I'm sorry, but no, you don't need to be a skilled player (I'm not), you need to understand the difference between MMO and solo game, and the core difference was in those 3 pillars I've explained, Team work / communication, gear / build, skill / execution.
Some are great at all 3, some are only in few, I've picked the first as focus and it allows me to complete whatever with mediocre gear (relative terms to the content), and even more mediocre skill. This is what guilds, alliance, community discords and everyone else do, except you.
Your guild doesn't run, help organize runs, or move guild. BTW like yours, ours using a custom channel, to allow people to be in time zone guild, or guilds they don't want to leave while still also be with us. Communities are not about exclusivity but about allowing people to have fun and enjoy the game.
Please enough with the twisting, you claim that I have some uber guild that I don't know what? No, sorry, no. (as much as I do would love to consider us the best at everything)
There are guilds that complete ToMM in guild / in alliance only, THC, Toms guild (Natsu, and I can't spell their guild name), Civil Anarchy I think did alliance completion, and others.
Some did it early, some did it recently, we are not them, I've explained this before, the difference between me and you for example, will be that I keep organizing and trying, and failing, until we get it done, with the casual group of plebs that we are.
Because that is what gaming about.
You give up before you even tried. You know that you can gear to whatever you want on preview, and try... Here a novel idea, How about doing a guild thing, set a time, explain everyone how to get to preview, organize some gear, and do some guild event each weekend, ToMM attempts or "Learn the m18 dungeon".
Some guilds have few people who push to the top, some have more, some are organized to accommodate being at the top (THC) and some cater to RP or new players. All that is not relevant, your constant issue is with years old content, which you fail, and is not a normal experience for players, and again, that was demonstrated by simple completion rate numbers.
To quote:
"The queue maps that had poor completion rates were the ones called out earlier in the thread, everything else has very high completion rates and the majority have above 90%. " (FBI is not one of the poor completion rated maps, CR, Tiamat, bank heist, and some others.)
"LoMM is a good example of that. On PC it is up to an 87% completion rate (public not private matches), while on console it is closer to 80% due to it being newer and players are still gearing up in the new stat structure. It also has a 38 minute average run time on PC, which is one of the highest. That does indicate that a decent portion of the population is still struggling with this dungeon. In this case though, that is expected as for console it is the highest piece of content in the game and on PC it is still the second highest piece of content. The expert queue is meant to be a place players are challenged."
This repeats every time, please once consider that perhaps your experience is not what the majority of the player base experience. Yes, which is what you try to argue about me, but I have the numbers and experience in multiple alliances, and being in almost every public NW related thing, from Facebook groups to discords, to channels, to back up my impression.
FBI:
Except that that group doesn't reset. You can quit it, you can die there, you can do many things, but the only way to fail it, if the entire group wipes and didn't manage to kill a single mob, if so then they had an issue in the communication department, no one waited for the others, didn't focus mobs, didn't focus that orc which calls for help, and so on. Or the tank thinks they are dps. And dps that they are tank.
The difference is in a case like that I'll take matters to my hands, explain to people what to do, and stick there until it gets done to the best of my ability.
As you probably still know, I pugged my share, and often it was simply because I don't like RQs, and for some times that was the only thing my past alliances did... It is not so easy to find a guild that meets one's needs completely. Sometimes, that means I'm rushed more than I would like, other times it means I need to be more patient than I'm in the mood for, but thats okay, communication is key. Only that at the end of the day when I can't find people to run what I'd like to run (or what I couldn't do at the time it was meta and now it's extinct) I still end up with pugs. Thats okay. We are gonna do our best.
(I do not recall having anything dungeon-related explained to me in a halfway nice way besides my first lomm. Sounds nice being new running with you)
But I have also noticed that I cannot do with the way many many bis players are going about difficult content. You might know differently with people that communicate well and well... have some sort of mature personality, but I have also seen different when it comes to endgame, also with tomm - and its a bit disheartening. I can see those arguments.
I'm actually positively surprised by every post in which you state how down-to-earth your experiences seem.
But for me personally, I wouldn't consider switching guilds I have been with for such a long time just because it wouldn't provide me with similar minded people for premade. We are all far too different people and many are far more driven to finish every piece of content in a fast manner than me.
What I really mean: its a matter of pace and also, in regards to tomm, whether to experience content second-hand or trying it out for yourself before. A matter of how goal- and how story-oriented people are.
I wouldn't say that people wanna play this game solo. I think its hard to find a way to play it in a way everybody in the same group is comfortable with. We can't all meet each others "needs".
Most people I vibe with are not here anymore, and when I run with new people, I of course try to adjust to the pace and the abilities. But when its challenging content I personally found it hard to find new people that are not quick to judge and quick to kick.
That's of course my own fault, may it be unwillingness to really search for new people or inability to run the most important content of each mod (I usually lag behind 1 mod) but there are so many fish in the sea, I don't just "find" people that I wanna run with and that wanna run with me constantly.
So whatever I was trying to say; if you are right and the majority is fine then great! I sure hope so! NW needs some ppl playing should they really wanna stick around for another few years.
I have talked to and seen people quit with tomm, because they came back for it and got ready for it and thats how far they got. But I'm not them, so I can't argue if it was their people skills (I like them, if that tells you something about their ppl skills, or mine lol) or tomm.
But maybe one day I'll get back to it and notice that it was indeed just a lack of communication or dedication or whatever. You are probably right, even if you are generalizing.
(Like, organizing guild preview tests and stuff like that.)
The above argument with ChemJeff goes eons ago, long long before ToMM, though a lot does apply to ToMM, the discourse is more general.
I completely understand that sometimes people just want to press a button and enter a dungeon, or just can't find the people to run with them something they want to do, so they pug, if it via queue system or other ways.
The disagreement will be, what happens next, and how much it happens.
My point is that with a global look of things, most players do not pug when given other options.
And that entering a dungeon with random people, where you (general) not over-gearing it significantly (less possible now with the caps) will put you at a disadvantage, yet the success rate, currently, is not abysmal as some portray it, and more so doing so with a group at minimal requirements should not give the expectation of 50% chance of success but it should be lower.
There is a high completion rate, that reinforces the above scenario, which is the disagreement here, where Chemjeff claims that his experience (solo pug) is the typical one, with the failures of years old content.
I agree that everyone have their pace, and priorities, and different interests even in the same common little pond we call NW. And the same with guilds, some prefer smaller guilds (we are one) knowing that it hurts the availability of people, some prefer larger, some end-game, some more casual and so many more less game related aspects.
It is a choice of tradeoffs, and at the end, this is why I dislike the above attitude (not yours), If I would choose one over another, and choose not to do something about it, like for example a super casual guild, then it is my choice, I would not complain "Make end-game available at lunch for everyone, super casual too"
This, "You know a theorycrafter, then it explains it all, you must be in a bubble, the rest have different experience", is just false on this extent, we make our trade offs, and our choices, and if someone doesn't make the connections and community they are comfortable to overcome difficulty then why the blame the world? It was a personal choice of tradeoffs.
(again this is an explanation of the discussion before and not aimed at you)
Anyway, trailed off, if you do want to give tomm training a try (and it may end up good experience or bad, no promises), feel free to contact me, in-game or discord (trainings are on preview, so gear can be upgraded easily). I do hope you play something dpsish and in EUish timezones though.
I can see how things are put in perspective, e.g. if I run a pug in MC or run a pug in folly, the completion rates are of course high, as it usually is enough if there is 1-2 halfway good dps. Completion rates for more difficult content shouldn't be over 90% (if that really is the case) with pugs, otherwise one might think the content is too easy to pull off with complete strangers and no communication.
If there is no new content and no possible progression in usual casual-player-content or systems, they (we) might also end up bored and suddenly start side-eyeing endgame content (or ancient content before just sitting around) and well... Have no existing groups/channels/friends that want to help with that type of sudden endeavour :'D
I also saw old content fail, due to multiple reasons, always pugged, but mostly because communication wasn't possible. That makes times like these with people on breaks and lots of new people in pugs (that suddenly can run nearly everything) more difficult. But yes, the easiest solution to this is premade. I didn't want to step between "mom and dad fighting" xP
1. I never said "friends are taboo" (lol). What I complained about, was that given the transition in Mod 10 to super-hard dungeons, and the buffing meta that also emerged, was that the strength of one's friends list became disproportionately more important than the strength of one's own character. You could have the best DPS character on the server but if you didn't also have 4 buffers on speed-dial willing to help you out, you might as well have the worst character on the server. And so DPS characters who were NOT in the top tier (such as myself), stood no chance in this environment. That was my complaint. At least state it accurately if you are going to attempt to argue against it.
2. I never claimed that failures in old content was TYPICAL of what I experience TODAY. Most of the time, today, when I solo pug content, it is successfully completed. That includes FBI, even CoDG now (since the consequences from the push/pull were basically eliminated). The 90% completion rate that you cited is broadly consistent with what I experience as well. So do not claim that I think that random pug groups fail today left and right with old content, because that is not what I claim.
And I am also not saying that TOMM should be available to everyone, I am not saying give everyone a trophy, I am saying mainly in my arguments that choosing to solo queue for dungeons shouldn't be regarded as some mark of shame, and that random groups shouldn't be treated poorly just for that reason alone.
"And that entering a dungeon with random people, where you (general) not over-gearing it significantly (less possible now with the caps) will put you at a disadvantage, yet the success rate, currently, is not abysmal as some portray it, and more so doing so with a group at minimal requirements should not give the expectation of 50% chance of success but it should be lower. "
Why should it be lower? My argument is essentially statistical in nature: if you have a randomly-selected group of people asked to perform a task, where the threshold for successfully performing the task rests somewhere around the median of the group, then one would expect the net result of these trials to be about 50/50.
I get the impression that you think teamwork & cooperation should be a MANDATORY component for dungeons. That if the team doesn't actively cooperate on some level - not just that everyone independently knows the mechanics, but that the team should communicate and cooperate with each other in real time - that the team should stand a very high chance of failure. Is that the case?
And @dread4moor thank you for your comments. This isn't really "mom and dad fighting", just two people with a disagreement.
But in short, TOMM with a random group would be extreme and an utter walk in the park. It might as well then be content for the casuals and not for hardcore players. But you do bring up a good argument, it requires a pletheora of resources and communication, familiarity and even knowledge of your class (especially if you want to grind it for profit) but that is not a fault in TOMM in itself, it does what it was intended to do, that is more of a accessibility issue and somewhere balance. Cryptic needs to work on balancing first, and then make content more accessible. You can find more information on this in the CDP topic "accessibility".
In that case you can call every MCrafter selling his created items a disgusting as well.
I doubt I'm gona be wrong here, but I belive leveling a toon to full mastercrafting in all specs is even harder and more expensive and time/resources consuming then learning how to run TOMM.
I've made couple of hundreds of MC weapons, rings etc when those were BIS.
Few of those I gave to my friends for free, when those were expensive I tried to make them for my guildies for free from their own materials (so using my skilled toon and best crafting items and potions out there for free).
But about 95% of these items I sold to paying customers.
I dont care what are their reasons.
I dont care if ADs they paid me are form farming or ZEN exchange.
I know that they were able to try to level up MC same as I did - but from different reasons - they choose not to.
So they had oportunity AND CHOOSE to buy those items from me or any other MCrafter out there.
Simple as that.... cant find anything disgusting in that....
I aloso havent seen anythng disgusting in selling Tyrant armor or weapon set or aby other hunts related items.
Do you really feel disgusted in real life when you have to pay for something you cant create or make yourself?
Really?
P.S. Just for the record - I am having a vacation from NV. I log irregulary to collect a key. So I never been to TOMM and I dont care about it too much
But if I decide to came back and those TOMM weapons stll would be worth getting I wont mind to go and buy myself oportunity to get them. Heck I belive I will have a chance to buy something from players who bought so much items from me back in a days:D.