I think I disagree with the claim that dps characters cost more than support characters - at least in the case of the tank, though I spent a lot of AD on my cleric too.
After m16 hit, all of my dps characters were back on their feet that day. My pally on the other hand has taken me months to figure out. I only really experienced anything like a breakthrough a couple weeks ago. Could just be me personally, but I wound up dumping more time and resources into that one character than any of the other five, and I still find it to be my most difficult character to play effectively in a queue as well as in the solo campaign. It's the only one of my characters to actually need legendary 900+ gear even though it's still in SKT. By comparison, my warlock is a third of the way through Ravenloft and despite all the issues with that class, is still quite comfortable with level 600-700 equipment. My wizard still in Spinward Rise with all the hand-me-downs has been outperforming the lot of them right out of the box. I've hardly spent anything on that one.
I think this is just another reason why encouraging newer players to tank is a big mistake.
They can't.
They don't have the resources to make something that has decent enough dps to get through the campaign content on their own, is able to turn out enough threat when playing with others, and is able to survive situations when it actually does manage to maintain its threat level.
I don't know what They're hoping new players will learn by encouraging them to bring tanks into rq, but I doubt it's going to be something positive.
Post edited by frogwalloper#6494 on
4
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @frogwalloper#6494 said: > I think I disagree with the claim that dps characters cost more than support characters - at least in the case of the tank, though I spent a lot of AD on my cleric too. > > After m16 hit, all of my dps characters were back on their feet that day. > My pally on the other hand has taken me months to figure out. I only really experienced anything like a breakthrough a couple weeks ago. Could just be me personally, but I wound up dumping more time and resources into that one character than any of the other five, and I still find it to be my most difficult character to play effectively in a queue as well as in the solo campaign. It's the only one of my characters to actually need legendary 900+ gear even though it's still in SKT. > I think this is just another reason why encouraging newer players to tank is a big mistake. > > They can't. > > > I don't know what They're hoping new players will learn by encouraging them to bring tanks into rq, but I doubt it's going to be something positive.
This was my experience also. "DPS costing more" to gear for random Q and endgame? Nope. Tanks have far more stat requirements. Also the consequences of a tank NOT capping a stat are higher than for a dps.
DPS need power and crit and armor pen. If not, they are dead weight.
Tank needs HP and defense and power and armor pen and crit avoidance and incoming healing and crit. If not, the whole party is dead.
When Mod 16 castrated my GF tank and bored my DC healer, I retired them and promoted alts CW and Pally Tank to mains.
Which cost more? Pally. Twice as expensive.
And after I invest twice the cost into Pally, spend 3 months figuring it out, what do tanks get in random Q?
Constantly sprinting to keep up with dps who think "first in"="paingiver".
Constantly fighting to regain aggro from the 2-3 mob groups ahead aggroed by epeens who think they, not the tank, set the pace of the run.
Yes, despite the Mod16 changes we are right back THERE again.
TLDR Random-ready tank is more expensive and less fun than dps.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
6
tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
I think the problem is forcing us to run content we ran thousand of times during 6 years to get a few ADs.
DPS running first can be a litle faster, sometimes the tank is really slow, and we have to admit it, on trash mobs not as useful as it should be.
> I think I disagree with the claim that dps characters cost more than support characters - at least in the case of the tank, though I spent a lot of AD on my cleric too.
>
> After m16 hit, all of my dps characters were back on their feet that day.
> My pally on the other hand has taken me months to figure out. I only really experienced anything like a breakthrough a couple weeks ago. Could just be me personally, but I wound up dumping more time and resources into that one character than any of the other five, and I still find it to be my most difficult character to play effectively in a queue as well as in the solo campaign. It's the only one of my characters to actually need legendary 900+ gear even though it's still in SKT.
> I think this is just another reason why encouraging newer players to tank is a big mistake.
>
> They can't.
>
>
> I don't know what They're hoping new players will learn by encouraging them to bring tanks into rq, but I doubt it's going to be something positive.
This was my experience also. "DPS costing more" to gear for random Q and endgame? Nope.
Tanks have far more stat requirements. Also the consequences of a tank NOT capping a stat are higher than for a dps.
DPS need power and crit and armor pen. If not, they are dead weight.
Tank needs HP and defense and power and armor pen and crit avoidance and incoming healing and crit. If not, the whole party is dead.
When Mod 16 castrated my GF tank and bored my DC healer, I retired them and promoted alts CW and Pally Tank to mains.
Which cost more? Pally. Twice as expensive.
And after I invest twice the cost into Pally, spend 3 months figuring it out, what do tanks get in random Q?
Constantly sprinting to keep up with dps who think "first in"="paingiver".
Constantly fighting to regain aggro from the 2-3 mob groups ahead aggroed by epeens who think they, not the tank, set the pace of the run.
Yes, despite the Mod16 changes we are right back THERE again.
TLDR
Random-ready tank is more expensive and less fun than dps.
Yeah I made a hasty tank loadout for my otherwise DPS fighter and just couldn't hold aggro [I admit I am a bit rusty on tanking] over the DPS guys and also just move really slowly.
I added in the mount insignia movement buff, so I can get to the fight quicker.
But it still feels hopeless without changing most of my enchants or getting more for the tank load out.
And after I invest twice the cost into Pally, spend 3 months figuring it out, what do tanks get in random Q? Constantly sprinting to keep up with dps who think "first in"="paingiver". Constantly fighting to regain aggro from the 2-3 mob groups ahead aggroed by epeens who think they, not the tank, set the pace of the run.
Which takes us right back to the fact that most of the content in the lower queues is easier to complete - without - a tank. DPS can get away with rushing ahead there.
And yet again, newer players learn a valuable lesson contrary to what was intended - that the tank is a rubbish class that can safely be ignored. When things go wrong, rather than realize - "Oh, we should have waited for the tank to get aggro," it's just as easy to conclude, "If we had two more wizards instead of that useless paladin and cleric, we would have won," or "we would have won faster."
Even if the queue wait times decrease, this is still such a poor decision.
Well.. my experience with solo RQs is a little bit different. I run RLQ-RIQ-RAQ daily with an occasional REQ thrown in for fun if I feel like it. I usually use some sort of healer or tank for RLQ-RIQ-RAQ(bonus) and my main Wiz for REQ.
(Note this is on PC.. CODG is removed from queues on PC.)
RLQ always is easy.. i tend to bring one of my poor and ungeared healer invoke alts for this, and there never are significant issues. RIQ can be somewhat more challenging. I usually bring a 22k Cleric or a 23.5k Fighter for this. Mostly runs are trivial, but there are some spots like Folly and Bank Heist that can create problems with low dps. RAQ also usually is completeable. I usually run this on my 23.5k Fighter. (As you can see there is a trend with using better geared characters for the higher queues). The problem in RAQ tends to be people not knowing the tactics. Even in groups where my Fighter is top dps(which means the dps is really low) we can usually complete the runs, but it sometimes takes a bit of teaching tactics and some time. REQ. Running this on my 25k Wizard. It mostly works out, I think we have had to replace some dps at Arcturia occasionally, but overall not too bad.
In sum: I rarely do not complete an RQ run, but sometimes it requires some persistence and patience. That is also one of the reasons I like solo RQs.. the experience is different each time. The probability of failing just adds some exitement to otherwise boring runs.
REQ will probably be similar in 2 months on consoles. People have too many problems with mimics and barely the necessary stats. It's also more difficult to help another player if you're ranged DPS due to not being able to zoom out the camera as much and adjust FOV (and the genius who decided to bring a Soul Sight Crystal which visuals we also can't disable lol) and tank & healer can also join the DPS after their first mimic is down to end the phase faster, which seems better then killing 4 - 5 mimics while the DPS can't kill one.
Mates- I said it is harder to be an OK DPS vs an OK support class in RLQ and RIQ. I said an OK not a good one.
I can see how that might be true of healers in the lower queues, but not tanks. I don't believe there's such a thing as an ok tank. The character either tanks or it dies, or it's forgotten - by both allies and enemies.
Five'll get you twenty that pc players are seeing this all the time now in skirmishes like Master of the Hunt.
One more witness of leeching. The old queues were full of noobs and everybody running the wrong way, but at least everybody was running. NOW it´s pretty much routine to be one short before the endboss.
Just finished a run where eventually the missing char came slowly running up all the way from the start. Here I learned it was probably a multi-boxer.
This sort of thing always happens when smart-hamsters try to force people out of their funzone into the "proper" way of doing things. Hamsterholes immediately game the system. Congrats @asterdahl, you gamed yourself and us.
Well, got into a Dread Legion run today where two players were playing like bloody lemmings and dying over and over again, another did pretty much nothing besides standing around inside the cave for several minutes and then standing around at the cave entrance in the arena, while the rest of us were fighting through the enemy waves.
It got better towards the end, when the lemmings were replaced with some real players, and we even got the leecher vote kicked right before the skirmish was finished... but that's just a one in a hundred runs outcome, most of the time the leechers get their reward and carry on leeching all day long.
Any words of wisdom on HAMSTER like that from anyone in charge around here, or at the very least something official on when ALL companions will become usefull again?!
devs got all that wrong on tanks, they were suppose to be train to run faster with armor as they level up, they became more muscular and fine honed reflex, just look at Sir Knox, he really beefed up and not quiet overwieghted. also they completely nerf tanks' taunting range, they forced tank players to get up get toe to toe with mobs and expect to taunt on spot, just cant do it since some dps dont want to wait and decided to play tanker without any fighter's protection. Into the Fray was taken out, no longer protect the groups or buffs. devs biggest blunder and worst mistake ever. in some areas there are several cluster mobs and pretty dense, too close for tauntings, end up fighting 3-4 sets of mobs at once. dps are doing "so loud" that make entire roomful of mobs instead they need tank to taunt "hey you" just to pull 1 group of mobs, seem most dps dont have patience for one group a time, and want go in "all in", and often wiped the party as mobs killed dps and healer in process. Mod 15 reset all that, and those 'tactics' are already obsolute and outdated, i am sure dps still doesnt know fighter's tree are completely changed, they still in mindset of pre-mod 15, denying and often blames on tank and healers, and when they use "DPS tracker" and see when tank is not doing enough damages, they either kick tank out or they quit the dungeon. that why i am so upset with "stat chasing" builds, it feel like playing calculator racing to meet requirements. and very costly when getting C-wards for upgrades.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. 12k Justicar in Throne today. You see dps that low all the time in there and they don't grace the floor like that. The second runner up was a 13k Blademaster.
... something really has to change here, it looks like some players don't even bother with getting the gear from the Barovian/Undermountain intro quest(s) for their level 70+ characters anymore. They just keep on leeching all day long with whatever loot they picked up or any items they got from dungeon/skirmish reward chests.
And those characters are of course running around as healer or tank... on the bright side, i'm getting the rAD role bonus with my DPS characters pretty regular now too. So i guess we have enough healers/tanks in the RLQ atm., but i doubt that this will improve the overall gaming experience for regular players in the long run.
it looks like some players don't even bother with getting the gear from the Barovian/Undermountain intro quest(s) for their level 70+ characters anymore.
You can blame the frikkn keys for that too. As a brandnew player you have to suddenly grind ALL the damn campaigns at once because you need a hundred different keys for a possible chest. Nobody got time for that and VIP isn´t helping at all with it either, as you only get the damn lockbox keys.
Ermmm, i'm pretty sure that those players don't waste any time on grinding their way through campaigns for boons or keys either... and the Undermountain gear set is handed to anyone, that picks up the quest behind Sgt. Knox in PE and then talks to him again in the Moonstone Mask.
It's not like the Barovian intro quest, where you might have to fight a little bit and travel through different areas to get the Vistani gear set. Not to mention that every Undermountain set comes with R8 enchantments slotted for every single character, plus some decent starter companion equipment pieces as well.
Not getting that set with a level 70+ character is my book simply saying "Fudge you!" to all your fellow players...
Likely it is not just newcomers that do not know better that is the problem. Newcomers should improve themselves out of low IL pretty fast, and most find the UM loot cache once they get to 70.
The main issue probably is undergeared and and no-attention alts that are run through RLQ to spend the invoke bonus. But even if you are badly geared, there is not reason to not at least TRY to contribute.
0
lordaeolosMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 167Arc User
People really don't think much about the value of experience. I have been playing this game for over 6 years now, and as an example: for grins I deleted a character this week and started a brand new character and joined the RLQ as soon as I was eligible.. I created a Rogue, queued in at that low level, took about 30 minutes for the queue to pop (so i continued the leveling campaigns while i waited), wound up with a decently geared 80 Rogue in the same queue, and then proceeded to out DPS that other Rogue 3 to 1, and no that other Rogue wasn't sitting around idle... What I am getting at is there are a lot of variables that can make or break a queue, even a RLQ.
As for the queue wait time, I was doing leveling content so I didn't find the queue wait time to be obtrusive as a pretend new player.. but when I'm on one of my BiS toons with everything I want but more AD, those wait times are obnoxious, I'm just sitting there staring at the screen counting down the seconds. Thing is, even if you put a whole party together I've seen queue wait times go past 5 minutes... It's not a great experience for veteran players
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
The main issue probably is undergeared and and no-attention alts that are run through RLQ to spend the invoke bonus. But even if you are badly geared, there is not reason to not at least TRY to contribute.
I think so too. I'll always rather queue with a couple green players than an alt 'cause the green players actually try.
Also, there are always going to be a few players who know about the freebies but for whatever reason prefer to do without. Sometimes the ones using the free sets are really good, but more often they're the worst of the lot. Everyone rolls their eyes at the oddball that queues with purple primals, then he/she goes on to kick everyone's butts. Everyone nods their heads sagely at the dime a dozen with orange alabasters, then he/she totally sucks. It's not the gear.
While I do not know because I do not do RLQ anymore. I would think that if it is MotH/DL you are referring to, those afks are probably used to trigger MotH/DL. Dungeon runs cannot be leeched.
Well, data i'd like to see would be how many characters run RLQs without any reasonable breaks 24/7, don't upgrade their equipment in any meaningful way and funnel all their earning into another account...
It would also be interesting to know, if the support has taken a closer look at those kind of "players" or at the very least flagged those accounts to follow the AD flow and find the main account behind these alt. armies, so that the main accounts can be removed from the game in the end.
Standard Random Queue: (Leveling + Intermediate Skirmishes) 5,000 AD bonus each run, up to 3x per day. Advanced Random Queue: (Intermediate + Advanced) 5,000 AD bonus each run, up to 3x per day.
In addition to the above, each dungon/skirmish/trial would give an AD bonus once per week tailored to its difficulty/time, whether you queue it specifically or pull it randomly does not matter. (example below)
- WEEKLY BONUS - Clock Tower (2,000 AD) Master of the Hunt (2,000 AD) Temple of the Spider - normal (4,000 AD) Merchants Folly - (6,000 AD) Temple of the Spider - hard (8,000 AD) Manycoins Bank (8,000 AD) Tiamat (9,000 AD) FBI (12,000 AD) TONG (13,000 AD) CODG (13,000 AD) Castle Ravenloft (16,000 AD) LoMM (20,000 AD)
In this system, there is more variety to the random queue, and there is incentive to play all the missions weekly. The daily AD reward is the same for low level as high, in order to ensure new players actually trying out new dungeons have adequate team support. The queues are split so that advanced players are not 'forced' to play low-level content if they do not want to. Another advantage is that you can queue missions directly to gain the weekly awards... you could even solo them if you wanted. The random daily bonuses would retain and tack on 2,500 AD for role bonus.
While I do not know because I do not do RLQ anymore. I would think that if it is MotH/DL you are referring to, those afks are probably used to trigger MotH/DL. Dungeon runs cannot be leeched.
I don't know about DL, but I'd assume that one's still a leech magnet. MotH is about the same. Throne's the one where I feel like I've seen an uptick. Always well geared players who know enough to get into the starting circle, then that's the last they move until the boss is dead. That one surprises me because it's so long you'd think people would put in at least a little effort to avoid getting kicked and waiting another 30+ minutes to queue. But kick votes are hit or miss in there - 'less someone's going bananas on the hulks then everyone wants their head.
Comments
After m16 hit, all of my dps characters were back on their feet that day.
My pally on the other hand has taken me months to figure out. I only really experienced anything like a breakthrough a couple weeks ago. Could just be me personally, but I wound up dumping more time and resources into that one character than any of the other five, and I still find it to be my most difficult character to play effectively in a queue as well as in the solo campaign. It's the only one of my characters to actually need legendary 900+ gear even though it's still in SKT. By comparison, my warlock is a third of the way through Ravenloft and despite all the issues with that class, is still quite comfortable with level 600-700 equipment. My wizard still in Spinward Rise with all the hand-me-downs has been outperforming the lot of them right out of the box. I've hardly spent anything on that one.
I think this is just another reason why encouraging newer players to tank is a big mistake.
They can't.
They don't have the resources to make something that has decent enough dps to get through the campaign content on their own, is able to turn out enough threat when playing with others, and is able to survive situations when it actually does manage to maintain its threat level.
I don't know what They're hoping new players will learn by encouraging them to bring tanks into rq, but I doubt it's going to be something positive.
> I think I disagree with the claim that dps characters cost more than support characters - at least in the case of the tank, though I spent a lot of AD on my cleric too.
>
> After m16 hit, all of my dps characters were back on their feet that day.
> My pally on the other hand has taken me months to figure out. I only really experienced anything like a breakthrough a couple weeks ago. Could just be me personally, but I wound up dumping more time and resources into that one character than any of the other five, and I still find it to be my most difficult character to play effectively in a queue as well as in the solo campaign. It's the only one of my characters to actually need legendary 900+ gear even though it's still in SKT.
> I think this is just another reason why encouraging newer players to tank is a big mistake.
>
> They can't.
>
>
> I don't know what They're hoping new players will learn by encouraging them to bring tanks into rq, but I doubt it's going to be something positive.
This was my experience also. "DPS costing more" to gear for random Q and endgame? Nope.
Tanks have far more stat requirements. Also the consequences of a tank NOT capping a stat are higher than for a dps.
DPS need power and crit and armor pen. If not, they are dead weight.
Tank needs HP and defense and power and armor pen and crit avoidance and incoming healing and crit. If not, the whole party is dead.
When Mod 16 castrated my GF tank and bored my DC healer, I retired them and promoted alts CW and Pally Tank to mains.
Which cost more? Pally. Twice as expensive.
And after I invest twice the cost into Pally, spend 3 months figuring it out, what do tanks get in random Q?
Constantly sprinting to keep up with dps who think "first in"="paingiver".
Constantly fighting to regain aggro from the 2-3 mob groups ahead aggroed by epeens who think they, not the tank, set the pace of the run.
Yes, despite the Mod16 changes we are right back THERE again.
TLDR
Random-ready tank is more expensive and less fun than dps.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
DPS running first can be a litle faster, sometimes the tank is really slow, and we have to admit it, on trash mobs not as useful as it should be.
I added in the mount insignia movement buff, so I can get to the fight quicker.
But it still feels hopeless without changing most of my enchants or getting more for the tank load out.
DPS can get away with rushing ahead there.
And yet again, newer players learn a valuable lesson contrary to what was intended - that the tank is a rubbish class that can safely be ignored. When things go wrong, rather than realize - "Oh, we should have waited for the tank to get aggro," it's just as easy to conclude, "If we had two more wizards instead of that useless paladin and cleric, we would have won," or "we would have won faster."
Even if the queue wait times decrease, this is still such a poor decision.
I don't believe there's such a thing as an ok tank.
The character either tanks or it dies, or it's forgotten - by both allies and enemies.
Five'll get you twenty that pc players are seeing this all the time now in skirmishes like Master of the Hunt.
It got better towards the end, when the lemmings were replaced with some real players, and we even got the leecher vote kicked right before the skirmish was finished... but that's just a one in a hundred runs outcome, most of the time the leechers get their reward and carry on leeching all day long.
Any words of wisdom on HAMSTER like that from anyone in charge around here, or at the very least something official on when ALL companions will become usefull again?!
also they completely nerf tanks' taunting range, they forced tank players to get up get toe to toe with mobs and expect to taunt on spot, just cant do it since some dps dont want to wait and decided to play tanker without any fighter's protection. Into the Fray was taken out, no longer protect the groups or buffs. devs biggest blunder and worst mistake ever.
in some areas there are several cluster mobs and pretty dense, too close for tauntings, end up fighting 3-4 sets of mobs at once. dps are doing "so loud" that make entire roomful of mobs instead they need tank to taunt "hey you" just to pull 1 group of mobs, seem most dps dont have patience for one group a time, and want go in "all in", and often wiped the party as mobs killed dps and healer in process.
Mod 15 reset all that, and those 'tactics' are already obsolute and outdated, i am sure dps still doesnt know fighter's tree are completely changed, they still in mindset of pre-mod 15, denying and often blames on tank and healers, and when they use "DPS tracker" and see when tank is not doing enough damages, they either kick tank out or they quit the dungeon.
that why i am so upset with "stat chasing" builds, it feel like playing calculator racing to meet requirements. and very costly when getting C-wards for upgrades.
The second runner up was a 13k Blademaster.
And those characters are of course running around as healer or tank... on the bright side, i'm getting the rAD role bonus with my DPS characters pretty regular now too. So i guess we have enough healers/tanks in the RLQ atm., but i doubt that this will improve the overall gaming experience for regular players in the long run.
It's not like the Barovian intro quest, where you might have to fight a little bit and travel through different areas to get the Vistani gear set. Not to mention that every Undermountain set comes with R8 enchantments slotted for every single character, plus some decent starter companion equipment pieces as well.
Not getting that set with a level 70+ character is my book simply saying "Fudge you!" to all your fellow players...
The main issue probably is undergeared and and no-attention alts that are run through RLQ to spend the invoke bonus. But even if you are badly geared, there is not reason to not at least TRY to contribute.
As for the queue wait time, I was doing leveling content so I didn't find the queue wait time to be obtrusive as a pretend new player.. but when I'm on one of my BiS toons with everything I want but more AD, those wait times are obnoxious, I'm just sitting there staring at the screen counting down the seconds. Thing is, even if you put a whole party together I've seen queue wait times go past 5 minutes... It's not a great experience for veteran players
Guild Leader: Mistaken Identity (formerly Midnight Express)
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See my Youtube Channel for guides and more
"Don't ever become a pessimist... a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events."
Also, there are always going to be a few players who know about the freebies but for whatever reason prefer to do without. Sometimes the ones using the free sets are really good, but more often they're the worst of the lot. Everyone rolls their eyes at the oddball that queues with purple primals, then he/she goes on to kick everyone's butts. Everyone nods their heads sagely at the dime a dozen with orange alabasters, then he/she totally sucks. It's not the gear.
Queue times are pretty bad for dps.
Also, could be my imagination, but it sure seems like there's a lot more afk/leeching now. I wasn't expecting that.
It would also be interesting to know, if the support has taken a closer look at those kind of "players" or at the very least flagged those accounts to follow the AD flow and find the main account behind these alt. armies, so that the main accounts can be removed from the game in the end.
Standard Random Queue: (Leveling + Intermediate Skirmishes) 5,000 AD bonus each run, up to 3x per day.
Advanced Random Queue: (Intermediate + Advanced) 5,000 AD bonus each run, up to 3x per day.
In addition to the above, each dungon/skirmish/trial would give an AD bonus once per week tailored to its difficulty/time, whether you queue it specifically or pull it randomly does not matter. (example below)
- WEEKLY BONUS -
Clock Tower (2,000 AD)
Master of the Hunt (2,000 AD)
Temple of the Spider - normal (4,000 AD)
Merchants Folly - (6,000 AD)
Temple of the Spider - hard (8,000 AD)
Manycoins Bank (8,000 AD)
Tiamat (9,000 AD)
FBI (12,000 AD)
TONG (13,000 AD)
CODG (13,000 AD)
Castle Ravenloft (16,000 AD)
LoMM (20,000 AD)
In this system, there is more variety to the random queue, and there is incentive to play all the missions weekly. The daily AD reward is the same for low level as high, in order to ensure new players actually trying out new dungeons have adequate team support. The queues are split so that advanced players are not 'forced' to play low-level content if they do not want to. Another advantage is that you can queue missions directly to gain the weekly awards... you could even solo them if you wanted. The random daily bonuses would retain and tack on 2,500 AD for role bonus.