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The Maths of the new Random Queue System



  • switchfoot#4577 switchfoot Member Posts: 3 Arc User
    One major problem I see with the cryptic logic is that they assume everyone has empty char slots where they can make a healer. The ftp players only have 2 slots. If they already filled them with dps or tank, then they either have to spend rl money or they have to delete a char to make a healer. Probably not going to happen in most cases.

  • akemnosakemnos Member Posts: 597 Arc User

    @arazith07 Thanks for taking the time to explain your points. I have a 25k Cleric, a 25.7k Paladin and a 24.7k Ranger. I also have multiples of every other class except SW. I disagree with several of your points, but that is your opinion and the way you play. I'm not here to try to teach you anything or tell you how you should play the game. Like I said I don't bother with Random Queues other than the occasional REQ to help out guildies or to farm LOMM, and those are always premade.

    My points are as stated in several posts in this thread and others, I am not here for myself. I am here for the new players who are probably not yet aware of these forums, and yes they do die and struggle with RLQ and RIQ even if you don't. If I really had my way RLQ would be blocked entirely for anyone who already has a level 80 character. Those people are more than capable of farming AD in other queues and in other ways. TBH I could care less about people who are crying because they can't farm AD quickly anymore. I know there are better and much faster ways to make AD. Those people are not going to quit the game because of bad experiences in queues or increased queue times. New people will quit, and this game can not afford to lose new people. I have seen it happen all too many times.

    The title of this thread is: THE MATHS OF THE NEW RANDOM QUEUE SYSTEM.
    So IMO all queues are relevant to this discussion.

    Wow this post is so full of itself that i almost laughed out loud while reading it. Why the hell should anyone be blocked from running this content? Just because someone say has a level 80 Ranger, why block that person from running this queue, and then block him from running it on his level 45 cleric. All this would do is cut the amount of people running the queue down to negligible levels. if you think the queue time is bad now how bad do you think it would be when >75% of the population cant run the queue?

    The Random Queues were made to specifically fight the low chance of a queue actually popping. People would spend an entire day in the old dungeon queues waiting for things like Cragmire Crypts to pop because literally no one else was queuing for them. For "being here" for the new players, what you just suggested would force them to quit even faster. Why continue playing a game when it seems like no one else actually is?
  • rafaeldarafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 662 Arc User
    the increased time in the queues (if measured against mod 15) also caused by the tank and heals changes, the increased const on heals for pallys made like 50% of the pally healers from my alliance to disapear, that people just moved to other toons

    The DPS patchs for Fighter and Clerics a re fun and that again works agains it more than 50% of the tank/fighters i know are playing DPS only because they hate the new tank playstyle... (My fighter is also included Here).

    When you make harder to high end healers and Tanks to work you also make much harder to make them, the reasonis taht theres only 1Tank 1 healer they CANT fail, they NEED to be ready and noone is born ready...

    when was easyer for End game healers to keep theyr tem mate alive was also much easyer for less well geared Pallys to work in hearder content, the way the thing where balanced killed the mid geared healers for hard stuff...
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    gripnir78 said:

    Generally if I was ever in a group which got Merchant Prince Folly or Manycoins Bank Heist, I was happy to abandon skirmish if I could see it was going to fail, and take the 30 min timer hit and go and do something else. And rejoin the queue later. It was never a problem.

    You trying to tell me that you never had MPF or Bank 2-3 times in a row? If that so you are RNG blessed....
    I don't remember getting Bank twice in a row no.

    And with MPF if I did get it twice in a row the second one I would grit my teeth and run it. Only ever failed once since random qs came in. That was a HAMSTER of a run though. Really amusing. Low DPS, no clue what to do. No healing. Trying to take down the t-rex for maybe 10 minutes. Multiple wipes. By the end I was laughing out loud
    I never had a problem with any Q expect once I have seen a failed Bank Heist. That is it and I get Bank Heist and MPF on a regular basis. I'm also maxed out Wizard so it helps ensure the group beats content just fine. I use to run two sets of gear one with all rads and one with black ice / demonics to ensure I had the required stats in lower content but after playing around a bit I gave up using Rads do to the slight increase in damage I was getting over going with the other enchantment builds. I find that players who run with max power tend to under perform in lower content do to having lower than needed stats. Ran with plenty of 200k+ power players that did a 1/2 of my damage in lower content.

    I think MPF and Bank Heist would be a bit easier if the devs actually did stat clamping vs. scaling. Clamping would cap us us if our stats exceed the maximum. Using Bank Heist as an example you need 57K for armor pen, crit, and accuracy. If I have say 68K but with scaling it drops down to 40K I'm not all that effective compared to a player who may have his or her stats lowered to say 53K.

    Many players running the RLQ and RIQ simply don't have the bonding runestones or legendary companions to make up for the scaling of their stats. It is why I think the devs need to adjust scaling a bit if they remove the requirements for support roles for skirmishes.

    The other thing I want to point is that RAD isn't what the bonus should be, it should be just Astral Diamond and there would be no cap when you run a random Q for that bonus. If the devs did that we would see more healers and tanks qing up for content.
  • sgtpostal#4408 sgtpostal Member Posts: 373 Arc User
    lol 4 pages on this topic.... an most of them complaints.... an this issue aint even hit console yet lol.......... think they gunna change it back?
    (sarcasticly) noOoOoOoOoOooo PROB NOT just keep ecplaining and "justifying" these changes.....
    lol smh ring around the rosey anybody
  • tchefi#6735 tchefi Member Posts: 316 Arc User
    edited September 2019

    The other thing I want to point is that RAD isn't what the bonus should be, it should be just Astral Diamond and there would be no cap when you run a random Q for that bonus. If the devs did that we would see more healers and tanks qing up for content.

    Was more or less the case before the 100k rAD account wide refinement cap (before mod 14 it was character 36k cap + recycling purple and some of the blue stuff for rAD if i remember correctly).

    People with an army of alts could do RLQ (or even before the random queues was implemented, cloak tower/ToS and eToS/eSoT multiple times) for hours, digging a HUGE gap in AD wealth between players with massive amount of playtime and casual players with no daily regularity or less than 1-2h of playtime + very high prices on AH (i can remember myself selling a lot of 99xblack perls for 8k to 10k AD, glorious legendary mount pack was something around 25M to 30M AD) + huge issues with boting/AD sellers on external websites.
    Back to this time, 2hours/day in RLQ (half of my playtime), jumping from an alt to another (and before random queues had appeared, 2 hours of eToS/Cloak tower) for me was between 500k to 800k AD/day. And it was not the most efficient way to farm rAD/AD... only one of the easiest.

    Someone who was only able to do 50k AD/day before mod14 should be able to be the same amount nowdays (if he doesn't wait for ages the start of the random queues xD), but back then he was seeing things in AH 3x or 4x more expensive than today.

    When the 100k limit was implemented i was not fond of it obviously, but i also aknowledge the fact that it has help my ally getting more populated, casual players (can't play much per day or can play only 2 days per week for exemple) were not droping the game as fast as they were before (because low hope without k$€£ to really one day be able to more or less catch up).

    Make the role bonus direct AD, even once per toon, and yep, though it doesn't seem very efficient, i would probably throw some of my tanks (12 in my army) or some of my healers (10 in my alt army) a bit in RLQ and maybe sometimes RIQ (as they all have enough of basic equipment to do a reasonnable job), especially if VIP 15% bonus and 50% bonus from praying applied on the role AD. But we also may go back to dig a gap between casual and hardcore (on a more little scale though) and probably see prices rising a bit in general on AH.

    If it is once per account per queue, that should maybe help a little bit to fluidify the RLQ and RIQ while not being a game breaker between harcore and casual, although with that i already see myself organizing rotations between me and ally/guildmates to share profits in RIQ/RAQ/REQ (so not really helping external people)
    Post edited by tchefi#6735 on
  • avoie68#6606 avoie68 Member Posts: 6 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    The new eventdungeon needs a tank/healer and 3 dds? are u kidding me how long should it take to done the 10 run each day 10 hour? im a new player but now im really done with this game
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User

    regenerde said:

    ... or they simply move to another country, where they can at least get a job they actually enjoy.

    Sure, some can do that if the see a better country and have the inclination to do so. But most will just stay at their soul-sucking job. Who knows, maybe some even get good at the job and learn to enjoy it.
    Pay me 100 €/ h and I will quit my job and play a GF or DC for 8 h a day. As long as this is supposed to be fun, I play the class I want and not the one you want. My main is a CW, but I have a well geared DC and GF, too. I had to threaten a DPS player with a place on my ignore list, bc he did not stop complaining, how selfish I was, to level up my main first and not my DC. Really, what is up with this crowd? Every single one a single child with divorced parents fighting for their attention or what is the reason for this entitlement?
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • arazith07arazith07 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,343 Arc User
    The thing is, I regularly am helping the new players in my guild. Running lower queues with them, giving them pointers etc. They are much more capable than a lot of higher geared players give them credit for. Especially when someone is there to point them in the right direction. Those who don't communicate only have themselves to blame.
    akemnos said:

    asterdahl said:

    Hi everyone, thanks for sharing your feedback and thoughts. We know that many of you are frustrated with the increased queue times, and I'd like to apologize for the increased wait times. We made changes to the required roles for skirmishes after looking over the data from the past few months: many groups randomly matched with non-standard group compositions had a lot more trouble with certain skirmishes. If we made adjustments to make those skirmishes easier, they would be absolutely trivial when the queue system put a standard group together, so after much debate we decided to enable role restrictions for public skirmishes instead.

    As a result, queue times, specifically for the most populous role (DPS) have increased. In order to alleviate the issue, this Thursday's build will include the addition of role bonuses to the random leveling queue. Players who queue as the role most currently in need for the leveling queue will receive bonus rough AD. In addition, the leveling queue will correctly display the required roles.

    We understand that there are certain skirmishes which are trivial even with a sub-optimal group composition, and that skilled players can get through almost any queue in the random leveling queue with not only a sub-optimal but an incomplete group. However, the random leveling queue is meant to be comfortable for new players to join in and learn how the game works. We made these adjustments so that the basics of tanking and healing would be reinforced early on, and so that the random leveling queue didn't lean so heavily towards only popping a handful of skirmishes because it would always build groups entirely out of DPS.

    We believe that the addition of role bonuses along with the community adjusting to the changes over the next few weeks will greatly alleviate the increased queue times. We will continue to monitor the queue times moving forward and make any adjustments as needed, we appreciate your patience in the meantime!

    @asterdahl i understand this above post about the Random queues but this does not help at all for non random queues. I have just read that this change is now affecting the new CTA event as well and that is game breaking.

    Let say it is a 30 minute wait for the queue, that means to get 10 runs in i need to have 300 minutes of waiting time just to get my tokens. That means that for each day i need to be online for a minimum of 5 hours (as a dps) toon to get a single days token. While that might be feasible for me during the weekend it is definately not feasible during the week which means i am 100% unable to get all the available tokens.

    Not to mention what happens when all the heals/tanks run out? I dont know what the actual numbers are but say the numbers thrown around like 70% dps, 20% tank, and 10% heals is accurate then that means after only 10% of the population gets their daily token the other 90% of the population is now unable to progress at all. The rewards for running the skirmish directly are underwhelming so i dont see a lot of people just continually running for the fun of it. If even some do it is still not nearly enough. Even if every single healer class ran this twice as many times as need that still means 80% of the population is unable to progress.

    I am sure the entire population would rather seem the random failure than not being able to progress at all.

    Math is a bit wrong here, for every healer, there are 3 dps and 1 tank that also gets the queue done. So using those numbers, once all the healers get their 10 runs in for the day, 50% of the pop is still needing the event, not 90%. Then if healers run twice, it's 20% of the pop (all of which are dps) that are left out. But ofc no one will actually do that, so we are left with 50% of the pop left out. Now this wouldn't be much of a problem if 1/7th of the DPS population convert to healers (even if just for the event), most wouldn't even have to switch characters to do this either, since clerics and warlocks can queue as both. That small shift in numbers causes a near 100% event participation and moves queues faster.
  • namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,099 Arc User
    regenerde said:

    But enough with the double talk and let's cut to the chase, unless you and any other player that's supporting these changes have actually started spending more money on NWO, there isn't anything left to discuss.

    Actually, I have not spent any money in years. With the RAD backlog I have, I don't think I ever will spend another dollar. I started mod 16 with a 7.5 million RAD backlog. It is down to 6.3 million now. Running REQ with "not fun" roles have worked out very well for me economically. And the fast RLQ/RIQ runs also helped keep the RAD burn rate low, till now.
  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    I can solo it in 6 min... It take me more time to wait to go inside than to actually doing the cta... R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S
  • lordtweety#3604 lordtweety Member Posts: 275 Arc User

    I can solo it in 6 min... It take me more time to wait to go inside than to actually doing the cta... R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S

    This right here sounds like what I'll be doing. And seriously, 30 min wait time is just messed up. For a CTA event. Not even a dungeon run.

    I'll take my main through and probably help my girlfriend get tokens. All the pugs out there trying to get their CTA completed, I wish you the best of luck.
    Main: Angels Scar
    Guild: Ruathym Corsairs
  • kors#9447 kors Member Posts: 110 Arc User

    As I wrote elsewhere, asking for a Minimum Stats requirement instead of Minimum Item Level requirement is an utopia. But there are simple solutions that can be done:

    - When a queue, dungeon or trial is selected must be wrote in a CLEAR and HIGHLIGHTED way the minimum stats required per role, in order to make a player aware of the stats he/she needs to that queue, dungeon or trial;
    - Tank and Healer roles are not needed in every skirmish. The real needed thing is to balance some of them, like the ManyCoin Bank where adds can deal too many damage able to one-shot players;
    - As @oremonger#9999 said, levelling a Tank it's hard do to, especially if it's well built (for group content) and he/she needs to do the campaigns. To do a daily campaign quest can get lot of time because the Divinity and the lack of offensive stats (indeed a good tank well built for group content is focused on defensive stats and HP). End-Gamer players can switch a bit enough things like enchantments and/or companion gears and companion bonuses to do new campaigns, but a new player can't;
    - Must be added, at least for old dungeons and trials, a tooltip that explain their mechanics;
    - The suggestions in the L menu should be upgraded and must be HIGHLIGHTED the importance of BONDING RUNESTONES and Companion as well as the main stats needed per role. Normally happens that a new player get lost in the game, wasting lots of AD for not needed stuff and so on and not everyone check on Google, that's why they should be able to find all the informations they need IN the game.
  • grrowler#0622 grrowler Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    I was really surprised logging in today to neverwinter to run the CTA bridge skirmish (I was not aware of the queue role requirements change). I signed up for a queue and was waiting about 3-5 minutes, and began wondering if it was broken.

    and then I looked up the forums and found what was going on.

    I generally play my main which is (now) a cleric arbiter. While I was waiting for the queue, I decided to set up the second loadout to a devout healer cleric (which I have never played). After setting that up, I tried the CTA queue and instantly got notification to join.

    Each subsequent queue was almost instantaneous... it was sort of fun playing a healer, although I felt really bad, because I do not think I was very good and was learning along the way to the detriment of the fellow party members. honestly, I can now see the benefit though of having a healer in the party as opposed to 5 x dps (I remember running the last CTA garrandur and the instances with 5 x dps were either super quick or punishingly long and death-filled). it sort of annoys me that in order to get the CTA's done, I have to sacrifice playing the way that I am used to, but in a way, it is a good learning experience for me to play in a healing role.

    one odd thing that happened was that after a few runs, someone invited me to their private queue to continue running the CTA. The queue's seemed to fill quickly, I am assuming because the cleric role was already satisfied?

    I was wondering: could you join a queue in a healer role, but then use the campfire at entrance to switch loadout to dps?
  • dread4moordread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,148 Arc User
    @stoniar No. You can change loudout but cannot change role in random Q.
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User
    Looks like they are trying to provide incentives for more tanks and healers at end game, and forcing those requirements into the lower Random Queues to enforce it and then hoping people will progress through to end game.

    There would need to be a lot of incentive to end up with more healers. Not sure about OP, but DC heals has got to be the least amount of fun I have ever had playing a game. It is just god awful boring. I have a 24K DC and I have zero interest in making it end game worthy.

    Fix the game play and maybe more people will play heals.

    Tank is less HAMSTER but still.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,104 Arc User

    > @lantern22 said:

    > Looks like they are trying to provide incentives for more tanks and healers at end game, and forcing those requirements into the lower Random Queues to enforce it and then hoping people will progress through to end game.


    > There would need to be a lot of incentive to end up with more healers. Not sure about OP, but DC heals has got to be the least amount of fun I have ever had playing a game. It is just god awful boring. I have a 24K DC and I have zero interest in making it end game worthy.


    > Fix the game play and maybe more people will play heals.


    > Tank is less <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> but still.

    NW post-Mod 15

    DC Heal experience:


    Watch bars.


    Okay. Pray. Pray.

    Tank is hurt! HEAL!

    Oh. He took a potion.


    He's fine.


    Watch HP bars.

    Ooh. Big AoE coming.

    DPS isn't dodging?

    YES! Finally.

    Boom! He's hurt!


    Alriiight... he's fine now...

    Pray. Pray...

    Rinse and repeat.


    lol, that just about nails it. But I think you missed a couple of actions

    OK divinity bar is full. Okay use crappy at-will for a while
    . . . . . . . .

    Watch HP bars.
    Ooh. Big AoE coming.
    DPS isn't dodging?
    YES! Finally.
    Boom! He's dead!
    better go Rez

    Jokes aside tho, Took's description just brilliantly sums up how boring it is
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