Synergy Issue between Paladin and other healer

kangkeok · September 2019

Hi developer, I have brought this issue up on other thread(https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13122883 ). Sadly it is closed due to reason only the moderator who closed it knows. Anyway, like the previous thread has pointed out, there an is issue between the synergy of paladin with other healer class. When a paladin is geared enough to keep the party safe with his divine barrier, there is little to nothing for another healer to do. Since this mod has made healer's job is to heal ( which is good ), there are no secondary role for healer beside healing. That makes 10man content where healer are put into cooporating with each other, felt too easy especially when working with a geared paladin. While paladin are keeping the blue bar ( divine barrier ) full, the party hp remain untouched which leaves other healer to have nothing to do. Non paladin healer roles feels more like a backup healer who waits for the party to get bursted down rather than a healer who are able to co-heal the party consistently with paladin. That just makes non paladin healer's job too easy and boring.

To solve this, either cryptic need to gives healer a secondary job to do ( like upkeeping buff as suggested in my previous thread ) when the party hp are full or giving enough difficulty to a content to have both paladin and other healer to contantly heal the group. Although the latter might create a problem for casual player who dislike challenging content and other problem that accompany with the drop in dungeon completion statistic.

Anyway, this is as general view to all content in this game. Its not a reference solely to Tomm. So if Tomm difficutly is hard enough to have both healer busy and challenged, then its good. But I'm sure the same cant be said for other content. Thats why i propose to give non paladin healer a secondary job like upkeeping buff. However, i believe there are other solution which I leave that to the open suggestion and discussion in this thread.

namelesshero347 · September 2019

kangkeok said:

To solve this, either cryptic need to gives healer a secondary job to do ( like upkeeping buff as suggested in my previous thread ) when the party hp are full

Buffing... if you been around for the mod 16 transition, you should know this will be a non-starter.

kangkeok · September 2019

namelesshero347 said:

kangkeok said:

To solve this, either cryptic need to gives healer a secondary job to do ( like upkeeping buff as suggested in my previous thread ) when the party hp are full
Buffing... if you been around for the mod 16 transition, you should know this will be a non-starter.

It depends. If it is in the past where they makes the buff value way too big like 30% damage increase, 20% damage resist which is stackable to > 180% debuff/buff making end game content too trivial, then yes, it is bad. A 10% defense/offence buff that does not stack with itself but stack with other 5% buff from other class, I think its acceptable. Its all comes down in making the value right to make something viable but non overpowered ( in short, balanced ).

majorcharvenak · September 2019

If the buffs provided are additive then maybe there is a shot but like I mentioned in the thread before it was closed, why not add more DoT mechanics or litter the place with runic traps that provide effects that have to be cleared. That way you have one shieldbot and one cleanse/healbot for your healer spots in party.

kangkeok · September 2019

majorcharvenak said:
If the buffs provided are additive then maybe there is a shot but like I mentioned in the thread before it was closed, why not add more DoT mechanics or litter the place with runic traps that provide effects that have to be cleared. That way you have one shieldbot and one cleanse/healbot for your healer spots in party.

U mean HoT ( heal over time )? Yea, that's an idea but the problem is when u have shield on top of full hp, any type of heal is kinda useless since it does not do anything when someone's hp is full. Cleanse on the other hand does synergy but it a situational power.

mebengalsfan · September 2019

kangkeok said:
Hi developer, I have brought this issue up on other thread(https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13122883 ). Sadly it is closed due to reason only the moderator who closed it knows. Anyway, like the previous thread has pointed out, there an is issue between the synergy of paladin with other healer class. When a paladin is geared enough to keep the party safe with his divine barrier, there is little to nothing for another healer to do. Since this mod has made healer's job is to heal ( which is good ), there are no secondary role for healer beside healing. That makes 10man content where healer are put into cooporating with each other, felt too easy especially when working with a geared paladin. While paladin are keeping the blue bar ( divine barrier ) full, the party hp remain untouched which leaves other healer to have nothing to do. Non paladin healer roles feels more like a backup healer who waits for the party to get bursted down rather than a healer who are able to co-heal the party consistently with paladin. That just makes non paladin healer's job too easy and boring.

To solve this, either cryptic need to gives healer a secondary job to do ( like upkeeping buff as suggested in my previous thread ) when the party hp are full or giving enough difficulty to a content to have both paladin and other healer to contantly heal the group. Although the latter might create a problem for casual player who dislike challenging content and other problem that accompany with the drop in dungeon completion statistic.

Anyway, this is as general view to all content in this game. Its not a reference solely to Tomm. So if Tomm difficutly is hard enough to have both healer busy and challenged, then its good. But I'm sure the same cant be said for other content. Thats why i propose to give non paladin healer a secondary job like upkeeping buff. However, i believe there are other solution which I leave that to the open suggestion and discussion in this thread.

They need to remove the blue bar and simply make it so that the paladin heals and not protects the health of its companions with a defensive barrier. With a well geared experienced paladin there is no need for a 2nd healer.

Unknown · September 2019

This content has been removed.

kangkeok · September 2019

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

kangkeok said:
Hi developer, I have brought this issue up on other thread(https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13122883 ). Sadly it is closed due to reason only the moderator who closed it knows. Anyway, like the previous thread has pointed out, there an is issue between the synergy of paladin with other healer class. When a paladin is geared enough to keep the party safe with his divine barrier, there is little to nothing for another healer to do. Since this mod has made healer's job is to heal ( which is good ), there are no secondary role for healer beside healing. That makes 10man content where healer are put into cooporating with each other, felt too easy especially when working with a geared paladin. While paladin are keeping the blue bar ( divine barrier ) full, the party hp remain untouched which leaves other healer to have nothing to do. Non paladin healer roles feels more like a backup healer who waits for the party to get bursted down rather than a healer who are able to co-heal the party consistently with paladin. That just makes non paladin healer's job too easy and boring.

To solve this, either cryptic need to gives healer a secondary job to do ( like upkeeping buff as suggested in my previous thread ) when the party hp are full or giving enough difficulty to a content to have both paladin and other healer to contantly heal the group. Although the latter might create a problem for casual player who dislike challenging content and other problem that accompany with the drop in dungeon completion statistic.

Anyway, this is as general view to all content in this game. Its not a reference solely to Tomm. So if Tomm difficutly is hard enough to have both healer busy and challenged, then its good. But I'm sure the same cant be said for other content. Thats why i propose to give non paladin healer a secondary job like upkeeping buff. However, i believe there are other solution which I leave that to the open suggestion and discussion in this thread.
They need to remove the blue bar and simply make it so that the paladin heals and not protects the health of its companions with a defensive barrier. With a well geared experienced paladin there is no need for a 2nd healer.

I don't think removing a class unique feature is a good idea. Divine barrier is what makes paladin a paladin. It distinguish a paladin from other healer. Take the barrier away only makes paladin an lesser version of DC since their function are more or less like a DC but with lesser heal mag and higher divinity consumption ratio. If u suggest to buff up their heal mag to the level equal to a DC, then u might as well call them DC.

majorcharvenak · September 2019

kangkeok said:

majorcharvenak said:
If the buffs provided are additive then maybe there is a shot but like I mentioned in the thread before it was closed, why not add more DoT mechanics or litter the place with runic traps that provide effects that have to be cleared. That way you have one shieldbot and one cleanse/healbot for your healer spots in party.
U mean HoT ( heal over time )? Yea, that's an idea but the problem is when u have shield on top of full hp, any type of heal is kinda useless since it does not do anything when someone's hp is full. Cleanse on the other hand does synergy but it a situational power.

Nope. I meant DoT (damage over time). This would be caused by lingering negative effects, to the party/team, that would have to be removed by the healer using cleanse, warlock's bargain, or cleansing touch. These effects could be direct damage over time or effect to overall stats like hp or con or damage debuffs applied to the party. The MEs were a perfect example of this imho. Yes, a well geared player could probably bull his/her way through but they would be hampered by the effect until it was removed or it expired. The kicker is that with cleanse and warlock's bargain its a one time cast to remove it but with cleansing touch it has to be cast at one target at a time making it pretty divinity cost prohibitive to bring a second pally as the second heals.

mebengalsfan#9264 said:

They need to remove the blue bar and simply make it so that the paladin heals and not protects the health of its companions with a defensive barrier. With a well geared experienced paladin there is no need for a 2nd healer.

Like I mentioned, if you introduce more negative effects and damage over time effects to the dungeons it will necessitate the need for the other healer, as even an experienced and well geared pally will be hard pressed to both heal/shield and cleanse the effects.

frogwalloper · September 2019

Maybe just change Divine Intervention so that those barriers are applied by something with an actual cooldown.

kangkeok · September 2019

majorcharvenak said:

Nope. I meant DoT (damage over time). This would be caused by lingering negative effects, to the party/team, that would have to be removed by the healer using cleanse, warlock's bargain, or cleansing touch. These effects could be direct damage over time or effect to overall stats like hp or con or damage debuffs applied to the party. The MEs were a perfect example of this imho. Yes, a well geared player could probably bull his/her way through but they would be hampered by the effect until it was removed or it expired. The kicker is that with cleanse and warlock's bargain its a one time cast to remove it but with cleansing touch it has to be cast at one target at a time making it pretty divinity cost prohibitive to bring a second pally as the second heals.

ok I got what u mean. Adding negative debuff or runic trap like in ME seems to be a good idea since paladin cleansing touch are single target, that would need DC/SW to step in. Great idea.

thefabricant · September 2019

I believe the screenshot speaks for itself about how required OPs are for ToMM. (It isn't mine, I was busy PoEing at the time, but the point stands.)

namelesshero347 · September 2019

LOL only one healer. Maybe all healers should start to worry that only one will be taken going forward.

kangkeok · September 2019

thefabricant said:

I believe the screenshot speaks for itself about how required OPs are for ToMM. (It isn't mine, I was busy PoEing at the time, but the point stands.)

If u read closely from my first post, it isn't about Tomm or how paladin is required. Its about the synergy between paladin and other healer. While paladin shield are up, there are just nothing for the other healer to heal making them idling while waiting the party to get bursted. So your point is kinda off topic here.

majorcharvenak · September 2019

So...another round of ~~nerfs~~ 'adjustments' for the healers perhaps? Apparently they are still 'over-performing' if only ONE healer is required. 🙄

majorcharvenak · September 2019

kangkeok said:

thefabricant said:

I believe the screenshot speaks for itself about how required OPs are for ToMM. (It isn't mine, I was busy PoEing at the time, but the point stands.)
If u read closely from my first post, it isn't about Tomm or how paladin is required. Its about the synergy between paladin and other healer. While paladin shield are up, there are just nothing for the other healer to heal making them idling while waiting the party to get bursted. So your point is kinda off topic here.

To me it just means the BiS folks need more stuff thrown at them during the trial. Traps they can't avoided or have to be disarmed for the rogue (or even ranger) to take care of as an additional duty. Runes and glyphs that drop increase the damage received or lengthens cooldown or a myriad of other debilitating effects unless removed. Instead... we'll probably get more 'adjustments.'

Unknown · September 2019

This content has been removed.

mebengalsfan · September 2019

majorcharvenak said:

kangkeok said:

thefabricant said:

I believe the screenshot speaks for itself about how required OPs are for ToMM. (It isn't mine, I was busy PoEing at the time, but the point stands.)
If u read closely from my first post, it isn't about Tomm or how paladin is required. Its about the synergy between paladin and other healer. While paladin shield are up, there are just nothing for the other healer to heal making them idling while waiting the party to get bursted. So your point is kinda off topic here.
To me it just means the BiS folks need more stuff thrown at them during the trial. Traps they can't avoided or have to be disarmed for the rogue (or even ranger) to take care of as an additional duty. Runes and glyphs that drop increase the damage received or lengthens cooldown or a myriad of other debilitating effects unless removed. Instead... we'll probably get more 'adjustments.'

ToMM isn't the problem ATM it is the imbalance between roles and classes. Role wise one healer should not be a norm for ToMM it should be 2-3. The other problem is on the other end of the spectrum where certain classes are over performing than what was expected and if they were not ToMM would be more difficult and other class damage dealers would be in the groups.

One issue the devs are working on, damage imbalance. The other issue around only needing a healer can be resolved by the devs resolving the damage imbalance; enemies will do more damage and their health will go up to reflect our damage going up with this change. The higher damaging classes will probably be impacted the most as they will probably not gain or gain little in damage compared to the other classes; this would level out the playing field a bit.

IMO further changes are warranted in the game to our gear. Gear should just have two stats combined and HPs. This would make it easier on the devs and make it easier for players to balance out the characters. This update would allow the devs to up gear combined stats a bit and it would make 2 and 3 stat enchantments valuable again. It would also make higher end gear stronger just do to it having higher overall stats.

If all of these changes were implemented the game would be in a better place.

As for the discussion on the OP with other healers; it isn't just with an OP it is having two healers in a group this happens. Now content would be better if the group had to split up and do various task taking along 1 healer and 1 tank. If mechanics required two healers such as a boss places one healer in a prison for 30 seconds and every time a healer is freed soon the other is placed in the prison/box, etc... reflective mechanics that causes no cleansing DoT damage, etc.. there are so many ways the devs can resolve the 1 healer issue and the first IMO is resolving the damage formula and implementing that formula across the game for everything.

schietindebux · September 2019

thefabricant said:

I believe the screenshot speaks for itself about how required OPs are for ToMM. (It isn't mine, I was busy PoEing at the time, but the point stands.)

Outstanding but i got one question. Is this a factor for BIS groups with optimal communication, like "I lion now" ?

Swift Golden Lion: Aureal Armament now properly grants a shield equal to 30% of the target's hit points, increased from 3.33%.

thestia · September 2019

My wizard only has 147k standing power, so far from BiS. But we were all on discord, though we didn't need to be. You only really need to use the lion during superstorm.

kangkeok · September 2019

Again people, this isn't a thread about how paladin is not needed, neither is a thread for people to boast about completion without a paladin. Would appreciate if u guys stick to the topic or let the issue sink into oblivion and not mention it again.

kors · September 2019

majorcharvenak said:
So...another round of ~~nerfs~~ 'adjustments' for the healers perhaps? Apparently they are still 'over-performing' if only ONE healer is required. 🙄

No, it's not "overperforming". Simply people there are really good experienced with ToMM and its mechanics and they are able to avoid most of the AoE and damages.

kangkeok said:

To reply to your start question: no, I'm in disagreement with you about paladin healer. Healer paladin has not a good heals like the Cleric, it's job is to create barriers and this is what he/she does. So, I don't see non-sinergies between healing classes. Yes, toons have barrier, but maybe they need to be fulled in health, or, more, they are so low with HP and need a healer that can provide their full healing. Then paladin can make barrier.
That's why I'm not in agreement with you.
If you think, it's only something that happens if the other healer is a good one. Can happen the same if there is a good Cleric and can happen the same if there is a good Warlock healer. If in a 10 people queue one of the two healer is a really good player as well as a strong character (and well built), probably the other healer has not so much to do.
But this kind of thing (at least for me) didn't happen so often so, I still think 2 healers in a 10 people queue can be in synergy because the group need both of them.

kangkeok · September 2019

kors#9447 said:

If you think, it's only something that happens if the other healer is a good one. Can happen the same if there is a good Cleric and can happen the same if there is a good Warlock healer. If in a 10 people queue one of the two healer is a really good player as well as a strong character (and well built), probably the other healer has not so much to do.
But this kind of thing (at least for me) didn't happen so often so, I still think 2 healers in a 10 people queue can be in synergy because the group need both of them.

Good point. So I guess the issue here is not about synergy between healer class mechanic then. Literally anyone with high enough gear, be it a paladin or a cleric or a warlock, as long as one is capable of keeping the party alive, the other healer are just there as a back up. Even on 2 DC setup, when one DC is geared enough to fully heal the group to full, the other DC simply has no need to heal.

So the synergy issue here are more about player communication rather than the healer class mechanic. When there are 2 or more healer in a group, players need to decide on who is the main and who is the backup so they don't waste heal on top of each other heals. Or they can take one really BIS cleric/paladin/warlock and open the other slot for dps. Guess all is fine and dandy here then.

paulamyo · September 2019

thefabricant said:

I believe the screenshot speaks for itself about how required OPs are for ToMM. (It isn't mine, I was busy PoEing at the time, but the point stands.)

7 DPSs and only 2 different classes. Great. It´s all well balanced there. There are 7 dps classes and only 2 are used in top content. Hurray!

Having only 1 healer in ToMM is somehow a good new for healers? What?

For the On topic: I should suggest that there are no healing mechanics exclusive to any class. Perhaps each class should EXCEL one mechanic, for example OP in shields, DC in burst, SW in HoT. But all the classes should be capable of using the 3 mechanics.

It´s just my opinion.

majorcharvenak · September 2019

All of this, to me at least, goes back to my point that a trail that requires two healers should have the mechanics to truely test two healers and their respective builds. Something that justifies the need otherwise what's the point. All three healing classes have two basic functions (irrespective a pally's addition of shields) - Heal & removing negative effects. It should be set up that (despite build/skill/mechanics knowledge) you can't avoid them all and someone or multiple team mates will get hit with something that requires fixing. If one healer is all that's required to keep a top group at full health then something needs to change. Either increase the damage, types of damage or effects that requires that second healer to step up and assist, otherwise why bother. The 'synergy' could come in the form of one healer covering the heals and the other covering or removing the Dots, negative effects, etc. It shouldn't be considered a top end trail if one healer is so disengaged as to be not needed and easily replaced with another DPS. Either add more mechanics or increase the pain. My two coppers.

thefabricant · September 2019

paulamyo#4926 said:

thefabricant said:

I believe the screenshot speaks for itself about how required OPs are for ToMM. (It isn't mine, I was busy PoEing at the time, but the point stands.)
7 DPSs and only 2 different classes. Great. It´s all well balanced there. There are 7 dps classes and only 2 are used in top content. Hurray!

3, actually. Our rogues had finished doing their 20 runs/week on rogue and had swapped to other classes in order to max out their scrolls.

darthpotater · September 2019

Another option is to split the incoming dmg between HP bar and Shield bar so DCs and Warlocks have something to heal and a shield cannot protect you if you have for example 5000 hp / 50K shield and you receive a 20k dmg hit.

We still have temporal hp (yellow bar) that could be there too but it could have the same mechanic. If you have temporal hp + shield the dmg could split / 3.

Just an idea.

kangkeok · September 2019

darthpotater said:
Another option is to split the incoming dmg between HP bar and Shield bar so DCs and Warlocks have something to heal and a shield cannot protect you if you have for example 5000 hp / 50K shield and you receive a 20k dmg hit.

We still have temporal hp (yellow bar) that could be there too but it could have the same mechanic. If you have temporal hp + shield the dmg could split / 3.

Just an idea.

That's a great Idea. It should elevate most of the problem if paladin shield does not absorb 100% of the damage but only part of it, making heals are still needed in keeping the hp full.

kors · September 2019

kangkeok said:

kors#9447 said:

If you think, it's only something that happens if the other healer is a good one. Can happen the same if there is a good Cleric and can happen the same if there is a good Warlock healer. If in a 10 people queue one of the two healer is a really good player as well as a strong character (and well built), probably the other healer has not so much to do.
But this kind of thing (at least for me) didn't happen so often so, I still think 2 healers in a 10 people queue can be in synergy because the group need both of them.

Good point. So I guess the issue here is not about synergy between healer class mechanic then. Literally anyone with high enough gear, be it a paladin or a cleric or a warlock, as long as one is capable of keeping the party alive, the other healer are just there as a back up. Even on 2 DC setup, when one DC is geared enough to fully heal the group to full, the other DC simply has no need to heal.

So the synergy issue here are more about player communication rather than the healer class mechanic. When there are 2 or more healer in a group, players need to decide on who is the main and who is the backup so they don't waste heal on top of each other heals. Or they can take one really BIS cleric/paladin/warlock and open the other slot for dps. Guess all is fine and dandy here then.

It's a bit more complicated... It depends a lot also from other players. The healer can be a great one, but if the others are mad and get lots of damage it's easy for the "main" healer (as you said) to go out of divinity. In that case there is not a "main" and a "backup" healer. And, for what I saw in randoms, it's what happens most of the times. Both the healers are needed at the same level

kors · September 2019

majorcharvenak said:
All of this, to me at least, goes back to my point that a trail that requires two healers should have the mechanics to truely test two healers and their respective builds. Something that justifies the need otherwise what's the point. All three healing classes have two basic functions (irrespective a pally's addition of shields) - Heal & removing negative effects. It should be set up that (despite build/skill/mechanics knowledge) you can't avoid them all and someone or multiple team mates will get hit with something that requires fixing. If one healer is all that's required to keep a top group at full health then something needs to change. Either increase the damage, types of damage or effects that requires that second healer to step up and assist, otherwise why bother. The 'synergy' could come in the form of one healer covering the heals and the other covering or removing the Dots, negative effects, etc. It shouldn't be considered a top end trail if one healer is so disengaged as to be not needed and easily replaced with another DPS. Either add more mechanics or increase the pain. My two coppers.

Have you ever tried ToMM? As I said before... if the group posted by Thefabricant beat ToMM with only one healer it's only thanks their abilities (to dodge) and knoledge of the trial. I can assure that damages there are crazy high and it's not needed to increase them again. You can be one-shotted if you fail only once, to be clear.

kors · September 2019

kangkeok said:

darthpotater said:
Another option is to split the incoming dmg between HP bar and Shield bar so DCs and Warlocks have something to heal and a shield cannot protect you if you have for example 5000 hp / 50K shield and you receive a 20k dmg hit.

We still have temporal hp (yellow bar) that could be there too but it could have the same mechanic. If you have temporal hp + shield the dmg could split / 3.

Just an idea.
That's a great Idea. It should elevate most of the problem if paladin shield does not absorb 100% of the damage but only part of it, making heals are still needed in keeping the hp full.

And what about, for example, the cocoon during Arctruria's fight? A thing like that can totally breake OP healing mechanics...

Synergy Issue between Paladin and other healer

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