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Are you planning to balance weapon and armor enchants?

khandran#2092 khandran
khandran#2092
 Member Posts: 67 Arc User
in PvE Discussion
Since mod 16 you decided to nerf some weapon and armor enchants and not nerf others. Examples..vorpal, holy avenger, shadowclad - why did you decide leave these so powerful and then you have really useless nerfed enchantments like feytouched or dread and others? Add diverse weapon/armor enchants with different powers that are useful in different ways, maybe to different classes.

Are there any plans to review enchants in the near future or is that it?
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Comments

  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,152 Arc User
    My understanding is that the damage bonus is equal and it is only the special effect that sets them apart now. Like Flaming and Plague Fire, the only difference is what color you set your enemies alight with.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • khandran#2092 khandran
    khandran#2092
         Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    greywynd said:

    My understanding is that the damage bonus is equal and it is only the special effect that sets them apart now. Like Flaming and Plague Fire, the only difference is what color you set your enemies alight with.

    You're telling me that the dot from dread equals the 50% critical severity to all at wills encounters and dailies fro vorpal? Or Feytouched which debuffs enemy on daily use...surely you mean something else.
  • skrewfaz3d#1482 skrewfaz3d
    skrewfaz3d#1482
         Member Posts: 109 Arc User
    > @greywynd said:
    > My understanding is that the damage bonus is equal and it is only the special effect that sets them apart now. Like Flaming and Plague Fire, the only difference is what color you set your enemies alight with.

    Well, I'm not sure if they changed it but plaguefire looks blue but doesn't burn enemies with 'blue fire' (if it did, I'd probably be regretting turning it in) they just burn with regular fire sadly
  • greywyndgreywynd Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 7,152 Arc User
    khandran#2092 said:


    You're telling me that the dot from dread equals the 50% critical severity to all at wills encounters and dailies fro vorpal? Or Feytouched which debuffs enemy on daily use...surely you mean something else.

    "This enchant does X damage of Y type to all your attacks." This is pretty much standard across the board now by enchant rank.

    The crit sev for Vorpal, the Feytouched debuff, etc. Falls under the "special effect" of that enchant.
    I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
  • khandran#2092 khandran
    khandran#2092
         Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    khandran#2092 said:


    You're telling me that the dot from dread equals the 50% critical severity to all at wills encounters and dailies fro vorpal? Or Feytouched which debuffs enemy on daily use...surely you mean something else.

    "This enchant does X damage of Y type to all your attacks." This is pretty much standard across the board now by enchant rank.

    The crit sev for Vorpal, the Feytouched debuff, etc. Falls under the "special effect" of that enchant.
    Ya which are obviously the defining features of the weap enchants and not as unimportant as "Like Flaming and Plague Fire, the only difference is what color you set your enemies alight with". Same for armor enchants.
  • khandran#2092 khandran
    khandran#2092
         Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    @nitocris83 any plans for devs to rebalance them?
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    What I dislike is that devs destroyed the Dread with mod 16. It was a vorpal with higher crit severity but only for encounters vs. the vorpal having its bonus being applied to all attacks.

    Played a round a bit with all enchantments and the one that truly needs to be fixed is the vorpal. I would suggest toning down the bonus to crit severity to 1/2 of what it currently is as that is to much of a bonus in critical damage. I would than look at other weapon enchantments and see where they can be adjusted to get it more inline with the updated vorpal.

    As for armor enchantments; Fireburst is probably the most broken one that does damage; it needs to have a % chance of applying the damage added to it.

    Shadow Clad and Bark shield also should be reviewed/adjusted as needed.

    Soul Forge is a joke armor enchantment as if you get revived you still have reviving sickness and after so many you are basically worthless as a damage dealer or tank.

    I don't think enchantments need a full over haul but some minor adjustments would go a long way to balancing them out.
  • mrimsogoodmrimsogood Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    > @mebengalsfan#9264 said:
    > (Quote)
    > The reality is that the other enchantments are fine; vorpal is to strong, so adjusting vorpal to be inline with the others is less work for the development team than adjusting all others.

    How is Vorpal too strong?
  • khandran#2092 khandran
    khandran#2092
         Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    What I dislike is that devs destroyed the Dread with mod 16. It was a vorpal with higher crit severity but only for encounters vs. the vorpal having its bonus being applied to all attacks.

    Played a round a bit with all enchantments and the one that truly needs to be fixed is the vorpal. I would suggest toning down the bonus to crit severity to 1/2 of what it currently is as that is to much of a bonus in critical damage. I would than look at other weapon enchantments and see where they can be adjusted to get it more inline with the updated vorpal.

    As for armor enchantments; Fireburst is probably the most broken one that does damage; it needs to have a % chance of applying the damage added to it.

    Shadow Clad and Bark shield also should be reviewed/adjusted as needed.

    Soul Forge is a joke armor enchantment as if you get revived you still have reviving sickness and after so many you are basically worthless as a damage dealer or tank.

    I don't think enchantments need a full over haul but some minor adjustments would go a long way to balancing them out.

    As long as the end result is a fairly balanced set of weapon enchants which provide a variety of bonuses that are all useful it doesn't matter if you nerf vorpal or just make the other enchants better. Maybe do a little of both. But other enchantments are just not fine, they are not in a good place and they are boring. Enchants like dread of feytouched lag so much behind though that it would be great if they did make them better, along with all others. And ya armor enchants like should forge are also a total joke.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    khandran#2092 said:

    mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    What I dislike is that devs destroyed the Dread with mod 16. It was a vorpal with higher crit severity but only for encounters vs. the vorpal having its bonus being applied to all attacks.

    Played a round a bit with all enchantments and the one that truly needs to be fixed is the vorpal. I would suggest toning down the bonus to crit severity to 1/2 of what it currently is as that is to much of a bonus in critical damage. I would than look at other weapon enchantments and see where they can be adjusted to get it more inline with the updated vorpal.

    As for armor enchantments; Fireburst is probably the most broken one that does damage; it needs to have a % chance of applying the damage added to it.

    Shadow Clad and Bark shield also should be reviewed/adjusted as needed.

    Soul Forge is a joke armor enchantment as if you get revived you still have reviving sickness and after so many you are basically worthless as a damage dealer or tank.

    I don't think enchantments need a full over haul but some minor adjustments would go a long way to balancing them out.

    As long as the end result is a fairly balanced set of weapon enchants which provide a variety of bonuses that are all useful it doesn't matter if you nerf vorpal or just make the other enchants better. Maybe do a little of both. But other enchantments are just not fine, they are not in a good place and they are boring. Enchants like dread of feytouched lag so much behind though that it would be great if they did make them better, along with all others. And ya armor enchants like should forge are also a total joke.
    Dread offer the ability for the player to forgo critical strike or is it armor pen for other stats but with how bonding works, etc.. there is no need for an enchantment like that. That is where the devs failed; they allowed us to max our stats with ease. I would remove go back through the gear and remove power and the bonus stats from all gear pieces and only have combined stat and HP. Combine would include power. This would improve the game greatly and make content harder without doing anything to the content because we all would feel the affect from lower stats. Than we would also all need to readjust our enchantments to make up for the loss crit, armor pen, etc... that would be the better way to go just on gear. This would improve the non-vorpal enchantments. Than vorpal would be ok if you can hit the 50% crit but you wouldn't focus on crit first you would get armor pen and accuracy up first to maximize your base damage before you even consider critical damage.

    Game still needs some adjustments.
  • markhawkmanmarkhawkman Member Posts: 117 Arc User
    How would you say Frost compares to the others? I can definitely see how giving enemies a small recharge penalty isn't great, but what about the movement penalty?
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    My character Tsin'xing
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    rjc9000 said:

    Likely not going to happen due to the weapon enchant procs that deal 5% of the proccing attacks.

    With weapon enchantment DPS "normalized", players can "focus on" the mostly useless extra effects on everything not named Vorpal.

    Funnily enough, with practically everyone having At-will base damage being kinda meh. Aura of Courage nuked from orbit, and the Crit cap being lowered to 50%, the Mod 11.5 proc style weapon enchants might have had players use more than just Vorpal.

    khandran#2092 said:

    holy avenger, shadowclad - why did you decide leave these so powerful

    I am not sure how either of these are "powerful" when Holy Avenger is a very small heal and minor defensive boost while shadowclad more or less means you can survive hits anyways without the stacks...
    mrimsogood said:


    How is Vorpal too strong?

    Because everything else save Bronzewood may as well not have a secondary effect.
    mebengalsfan#9264 said:


    The reality is that the other enchantments are fine; vorpal is to strong, so adjusting vorpal to be inline with the others is less work for the development team than adjusting all others.

    Noworries, is that you?

    I suppose making everything equally bland and boring is "one" way to ensure everything is "balanced."
    In prior mods this game was over the top with enchantments, buffs, debuffs, etc... Mod 16 goal was to make the game very simple and they did that but do to internal communication issues something were missed or coded incorrectly. Hopefully those will be fixed. Once that is in play I hope the devs revisit armor stat bonuses as we should be getting HP and combined rating on each piece and that is it. It would make higher IL gear better simply do to it having a higher combined rating. This also would encourage us to use 2 and 3 stat enchantments again; it would also reduce our power across the board and bring the challenge back to the game.

    All content would need some adjustment or maybe with the updated formula and this change to gear no adjustment would be needed. The nice thing is we wouldn't see 200K power on our character as we would have to raise our armor pen, critical strike, accuracy, etc... through enchantments.

    I would bring back the enchantment vendor for 2 weeks as well.

    I think an update like that would reduce vorpal useful as we would first want armor pen and accuracy than critical strike.

    Overall the game needs more tweaking.
  • juan#5043 juan
    juan#5043
         Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    Always the same, the solution must be nerfear how little power is left instead of strengthening the underutilized items, so that the "poor developers do not have to work," do they do it for free?, The game is pretty nerf enough to suggest more nerfeos still to "balance the system" ... But is it that no one has noticed the continued escape of players? .... simply amazing
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  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    juan#5043 said:

    Always the same, the solution must be nerfear how little power is left instead of strengthening the underutilized items, so that the "poor developers do not have to work," do they do it for free?, The game is pretty nerf enough to suggest more nerfeos still to "balance the system" ... But is it that no one has noticed the continued escape of players? .... simply amazing

    You do realize its two people doing all the coding. With that said they also have other things to do and taking things away makes it easier than buffing things up.

    Using gear as an example, each mod they have to consider the impact that gear has with its unique stat, how power to give each piece based on IL, etc... if the stats were simply combined and HP it would allow the devs to focus on other developmental work that could add to the game such as better mechanics in dungeons, unique gear bonuses, improvement to enchantments, etc..

    Until Magic the Gather is deployed and patched a few time for bugs NWO is a running a skeleton crew so anything to make it easier for them the better. What I want is more complexity, going back to the days of having multiple buffers, etc.. What we have now is very simplistic and well boring at times.

  • khandran#2092 khandran
    khandran#2092
         Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:



    I am not sure how either of these are "powerful" when Holy Avenger is a very small heal and minor defensive boost while shadowclad more or less means you can survive hits anyways without the stacks...

    Imagine an environment where all the stats and invisibility from shadowclad matter, where all those are infinitely more powerful than the other armor enchants which give you close to nothing in comparison..that environment is called pvp. I use barkshielf for pve but be sure that in pvp you can't do much without shadowclad this mod.




  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan
    mebengalsfan#9264
         Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    ecrana#2080 said:

    mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    You do realize its two people doing all the coding. With that said they also have other things to do and taking things away makes it easier than buffing things up.

    Using gear as an example, each mod they have to consider the impact that gear has with its unique stat, how power to give each piece based on IL, etc... if the stats were simply combined and HP it would allow the devs to focus on other developmental work that could add to the game such as better mechanics in dungeons, unique gear bonuses, improvement to enchantments, etc..

    Until Magic the Gather is deployed and patched a few time for bugs NWO is a running a skeleton crew so anything to make it easier for them the better. What I want is more complexity, going back to the days of having multiple buffers, etc.. What we have now is very simplistic and well boring at times.

    Please stop making excuses for the way the company has decided to split up workloads. That's just an excuse. Plenty of small teams have put out good work. Everyone like to think they have some behind the scenes knowledge as to the every day responsibilities each dev faces.

    The fact is you don't know what the repercussions of taking things out versus just doing the job right would be.

    You're guessing that it would make things easier because you're only thinking about the now.

    Do you think it would be easier for them to revert course and have to fix every single piece of gear in the game that currently has stats just to make it all combined rating & hp? No offense but I've seen what an "excellent job" they manage when they're tasked with making broad changes to the overall game. The odds are more likely that they would break many things.

    Let's also look at it from the gear aspect. A lot of times you have to choose between stats when picking gear. That's part of the puzzle in figuring out what gear, etc you want to use to hit your caps.

    If you make everything combined ratings and remove stats, well you might as well delete a large amount of the gear too because without those variations in stats then all gear would end up largely the same within it's item level. Right now you might need to choose between 4 different protege pants that offer slightly different variations in stats. Going your route those 4 pieces of gear would now all be the exact same thing.

    You talk about bringing back complexity while arguing that you want to simplify things (further than they already are).

    I'm not saying the thought is a bad one. But implementation is not as simplistic as you make it sound.

    And most teams would probably say "yeah we've got the shell already and it's easier to make/design 20 pieces of gear every 3 months then go back and clean up thousands of pieces of gear once".

    You make it sound like the gear design is a strenuous process for them...nowadays it's more like add 300-500 to each stat on that gear and call it something new. Lazy design at its finest.
    I'm personally tired of us being over powered. Content is to easy and removing the extra stats would hinder us a bit and force us to use other enchantments not called Radiants and that would make us do less damage. I'm all for less damage, making content more challenging and engaging.

    Right now content is a bore because even a the lower end damage dealer can burn through LoMM without much fuss and when you take a group of the stronger damage dealing classes and players with proper builds you just basically stroll through the content.

    I like MMO where content is so challenging it takes even experienced groups weeks to beat it. ToMM looks like it could be that content but given how things seem to go I'm sure it will be easier once all DD are closer in damage.

  • malakay#8027 malakay
    malakay#8027
         Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    mebengalsfan#9264 said:

    ecrana#2080 said:

    mebengalsfan#9264 said:



    I'm personally tired of us being over powered. Content is to easy and removing the extra stats would hinder us a bit and force us to use other enchantments not called Radiants and that would make us do less damage. I'm all for less damage, making content more challenging and engaging.

    Right now content is a bore because even a the lower end damage dealer can burn through LoMM without much fuss and when you take a group of the stronger damage dealing classes and players with proper builds you just basically stroll through the content.

    I like MMO where content is so challenging it takes even experienced groups weeks to beat it. ToMM looks like it could be that content but given how things seem to go I'm sure it will be easier once all DD are closer in damage.

    Overpowered has a better solution than nerfing everything all the time, new enemies with higher hp bars and damage, and boom you keep growing! People like growing, not shrinking, its quite basic really, nerfs nerfs nerfs, shrink shrink shrink, make things more powerfull, and keep people growing their chars to match up, also more money for them!!!!
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:


    Noworries, is that you?

    I suppose making everything equally bland and boring is "one" way to ensure everything is "balanced."

    I fail to see how making Vorpal useless makes the worthless ones any better. We need good enchants that do more things. Vorpal used to do extra crit damage on 100% of attacks and no one wanted it at the time...
  • santralafaxsantralafax Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,896 Arc User
    edited September 2019
    mebengalsfan#9264 said:


    In prior mods this game was over the top with enchantments, buffs, debuffs, etc... Mod 16 goal was to make the game very simple and they did that but do to internal communication issues something were missed or coded incorrectly. Hopefully those will be fixed. Once that is in play I hope the devs revisit armor stat bonuses as we should be getting HP and combined rating on each piece and that is it. It would make higher IL gear better simply do to it having a higher combined rating. This also would encourage us to use 2 and 3 stat enchantments again; it would also reduce our power across the board and bring the challenge back to the game.

    All content would need some adjustment or maybe with the updated formula and this change to gear no adjustment would be needed. The nice thing is we wouldn't see 200K power on our character as we would have to raise our armor pen, critical strike, accuracy, etc... through enchantments.

    I would bring back the enchantment vendor for 2 weeks as well.

    I think an update like that would reduce vorpal useful as we would first want armor pen and accuracy than critical strike.

    Overall the game needs more tweaking.

    Mod 16 made this game boring. Yaaaaawn. If you want to denote that as simplified, sure, it was made simple and grindy. Neverwinter used to be known for its great combat system. Not anymore.

    Weren't you just suggesting that people move to Greedfall or something in another thread???
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,261 Arc User
    OFC they will rebalance all the enchantments, and be sure vorpal wont be the best. Its part of the economy cycle.

    Then all the guys with BOUND vorpals will come to the forum with torches. After a week of flaming, the devs will put the exchange vendor again for 2 weeks and then everything continues.

    We are old here arent we?
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  • khandran#2092 khandran
    khandran#2092
         Member Posts: 67 Arc User
    santralafax said:

    rjc9000 said:


    Noworries, is that you?

    I suppose making everything equally bland and boring is "one" way to ensure everything is "balanced."

    I fail to see how making Vorpal useless makes the worthless ones any better. We need good enchants that do more things. Vorpal used to do extra crit damage on 100% of attacks and no one wanted it at the time...
    It's not about making them objectively better - but relatively better. Vorpal and shadowclad are just so much better than the rest that changes are warranted. Ideally they would improve the other weapon enchants though and perhaps also fine tune vorpal/shadowclad.
  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    santralafax said:

    rjc9000 said:


    Noworries, is that you?

    I suppose making everything equally bland and boring is "one" way to ensure everything is "balanced."

    I fail to see how making Vorpal useless makes the worthless ones any better. We need good enchants that do more things. Vorpal used to do extra crit damage on 100% of attacks and no one wanted it at the time...
    People started using other weapon enchants over the vorpal when Janne's website showed the decrease in crit sev over 150%, and it was combined with combat adv as well. The crux of the argument as I recall, was based on 2 comps, the siegemaster 4% dps, or the 10% crit severity from cambion magus/Erinyes. Once it was shown that the 10% crit severity was giving less than the siegemaster 4% dps, people shifted. Other weapon enchants that gave % damage, were slightly better than the vorpal, the vorpal dropped. As of now, there is no crit sev cap or relative decrease on Janne's new formula, it's ignored. My guess is they don't "nerf" the vorpal, they again will put decrease in crit sev effectiveness after 150-175-200% or something. The other options would be to tweak what other weapon enchants do, or nerf the vorpal. Or they do nothing haha. As for armor enchants, elven battle is bugged, and not in a good way, soulforged is bugged and makes immunity period too long, shadowclad has no cooldown, barkshield stacks don't matter as much due to people's HP exploding from last mod. Honestly don't think anyone in development has tried any to see what the state is.
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