DC near useless in ToMM?

2

Comments

  • ramesh84
    ramesh84 Member Posts: 133 Arc User

    But I have serious question. Actually I am between 3 chairs. Focus on heal lock, try my dps loadout or switch all over towards Oathkeeper and enter mod 17. I feel like Soulweaver is a good addition to the trial but I find it hard to choose. What is the margin of power you should reach as a healer beside having 50%outgoing healing and as much critstat+critseverity as possible. Anyone got a recommendation?

    140k power is fine, crit>= power (with new comp gear is pretty cheap tnx gond).
    About which toon choose: successful runs teaches us it's very recommended to train with same players, or at least a pool of 10-15 players that could exchange in case someone's missing. Considering healer composition in parties, I would focus on the class that your forming group could lack the most.
  • malekith#8724
    malekith#8724 Member Posts: 48 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    Hello Toxicity my old friend...

    Every time there's a new trial or dungeon released, it's always the same TRUCKING HAMSTER nonsense. The world of NW gets split in twain between perceived elites (who can run the content easily w/ their small circle because they've practiced on the test server) & then everyone else.

    Fact is ToMM is going to be impossibly hard for most groups at this moment because of the learning curve. Once people understand mechanics more and more will be able to capably finish this trial. This also means many people won't be able to get rich right away from selling the drops.

    For anyone QQ over not being included in groups that's on you. Make your own teams, fail and learn and repeat the attempt again. This is a multi player game where no one, not you or I, is under any obligation to bring anyone else that they don't want for any reason at all.

    In the meantime, I'll sit tight. Inevitably the challenge of this trial will be adjusted just like it has happened for the others that came before. Moreover, I'm going to watch vids and learn what I can so I can be ready when the time comes. ATM, THIS is one of my faves...



  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User

    The main topic is hardly worth answering so why care that much about? DC runs near every tomm as Devout loadout, answered.

    Well that does not give u the right to hijack others people thread doesn't it? Go open a new thread and leave this topic as it is. Its just rude.
  • paulamyo#4926
    paulamyo#4926 Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    cdnbison said:

    Hi!

    I had some aticipation and ilussion to enter ToMM with my DC. I have been preparing for some time, getting companions and equipment with the sole intention to be able to enter and finish ToMM.

    I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields, as without them it seems near impossible to finish ToMM, and my DC is not wanted as DPS because it´s not a wizard or a rogue.

    This trial at this point seems designed for 4 classes, and HAMSTER the rest.

    Thanks for the dissapointment.

    Ok, a couple things stand out here:

    1. In your preparation, did you also get a group of people together to run with you? Crazy as it seems, having a guild / alliance to go with, or a solid friends list of people to contact is just as important for stuff like this. The folks that spent time on Preview working together are in-game now doing just that - grouping together, working together. They know each other, know what each brings, and know that they can count on each other in the fight. If you're just waving your arms in a chat channel, you're an unknown variable - which tends to be punished in content like this.

    2. There are 2 healer spots in ToMM. 1 for an OP (for dem shields, yo). That means in a group of 10, *1* slot is there for a Cleric or Templock. Most people know a solid healer, so that slot gets filled (see #1). It's not that they don't want *you*, or that they don't want *Clerics* - they just want a known quantity for the run.

    3. DPS - I main a cleric, and mostly in DPS spec. I do solid DPS, and have topped 100M in a one-wipe LoMM run - and even I will admit that a well played CW or TR will almost certainly humble me on the DPS charts. In content like ToMM, "does ok" doesn't cut it right now. Players want - for obvious reasons - as much bang for the buck as they can get. If someone had a choice between me as a DPS, or some of my alliance mates on the CWs / TRs, I'd totally get why they went with the heavier hitters.

    So, it's not that clerics aren't wanted - it's just that you're trying to fill one spot in a 10 person group, that was likely filled by "this healer I know".
    I like this post very much.

    1. I have a guild. We are a medium size guild and we will try to get ToMM done wen there are enough high end people online. Unfortunately, there is no ToMM-capable healer paladin in the guild. Just bad luck as many people has many characters. So our guild is probably very unlikely to end ToMM as it is right now, I assume it. And is because without one particular class it is much more difficult being very difficult to start with.

    2. Yeah, I understand that. But if top groups all have one OP, many many ToMM capable DCs or SW will stay out of these groups because there is no place for all of us.

    3. My experience is exactly the same. I mostly DPS too and would love to enter ToMM as DPS, but my class is considered subpar for that. YAY! HURRA! I can enter as DPS with the others being 5 wizards and be carried througt it? Yes, but so can do a monkey with a keyboard.

    As you say: So, it's not that clerics aren't wanted - it's just that you're trying to fill one spot in a 10 person group, that was likely filled by "this healer I know".

    So, I can accept that "Clerics are not desired for ToMM" is an exageration. Let´s say: Clerics that does not have a ToMM-valid group on their guild or channel are very unlikely to enter ToMM with any chance of success, even if they are well geared an capable.
  • schietindebux
    schietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    The thread was answered 10 times right from the start, nothing to add nothing to discuss except the good old balance question as allways. So I could write same stuff once more, or simply recommand to press "O" type in tower of mad mage and watch the actual classes inside the dungeon. Now you know exactly who runs it (or tries to), no need to ask anyone, maybe rude but a simple fact.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User

    cdnbison said:

    Hi!

    I had some aticipation and ilussion to enter ToMM with my DC. I have been preparing for some time, getting companions and equipment with the sole intention to be able to enter and finish ToMM.

    I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields, as without them it seems near impossible to finish ToMM, and my DC is not wanted as DPS because it´s not a wizard or a rogue.

    This trial at this point seems designed for 4 classes, and HAMSTER the rest.

    Thanks for the dissapointment.

    Ok, a couple things stand out here:

    1. In your preparation, did you also get a group of people together to run with you? Crazy as it seems, having a guild / alliance to go with, or a solid friends list of people to contact is just as important for stuff like this. The folks that spent time on Preview working together are in-game now doing just that - grouping together, working together. They know each other, know what each brings, and know that they can count on each other in the fight. If you're just waving your arms in a chat channel, you're an unknown variable - which tends to be punished in content like this.

    2. There are 2 healer spots in ToMM. 1 for an OP (for dem shields, yo). That means in a group of 10, *1* slot is there for a Cleric or Templock. Most people know a solid healer, so that slot gets filled (see #1). It's not that they don't want *you*, or that they don't want *Clerics* - they just want a known quantity for the run.

    3. DPS - I main a cleric, and mostly in DPS spec. I do solid DPS, and have topped 100M in a one-wipe LoMM run - and even I will admit that a well played CW or TR will almost certainly humble me on the DPS charts. In content like ToMM, "does ok" doesn't cut it right now. Players want - for obvious reasons - as much bang for the buck as they can get. If someone had a choice between me as a DPS, or some of my alliance mates on the CWs / TRs, I'd totally get why they went with the heavier hitters.

    So, it's not that clerics aren't wanted - it's just that you're trying to fill one spot in a 10 person group, that was likely filled by "this healer I know".
    I like this post very much.

    1. I have a guild. We are a medium size guild and we will try to get ToMM done wen there are enough high end people online. Unfortunately, there is no ToMM-capable healer paladin in the guild. Just bad luck as many people has many characters. So our guild is probably very unlikely to end ToMM as it is right now, I assume it. And is because without one particular class it is much more difficult being very difficult to start with.

    2. Yeah, I understand that. But if top groups all have one OP, many many ToMM capable DCs or SW will stay out of these groups because there is no place for all of us.

    3. My experience is exactly the same. I mostly DPS too and would love to enter ToMM as DPS, but my class is considered subpar for that. YAY! HURRA! I can enter as DPS with the others being 5 wizards and be carried througt it? Yes, but so can do a monkey with a keyboard.

    As you say: So, it's not that clerics aren't wanted - it's just that you're trying to fill one spot in a 10 person group, that was likely filled by "this healer I know".

    So, I can accept that "Clerics are not desired for ToMM" is an exageration. Let´s say: Clerics that does not have a ToMM-valid group on their guild or channel are very unlikely to enter ToMM with any chance of success, even if they are well geared an capable.
    If now the false claims and exaggerations are behind us, we can move to point

    1:

    The issue with grouping is the same and always be the same, there X people that compete for Y spots, unless you form the group, then your spot is assured (if people want to run with you). This is not a snarky comment, this is how it is.

    There are groups that figured how to do it, and do it with OP, comes in handy that probably the best OP on the server is part of the group. And the rest have followed the OP thing.
    Yes, no doubt that it is easier, and the barrier can cover for mistakes and lower stats if the OP time it correctly, but there is a butt.

    You can do several things:

    Do it without OP, with balanced stats appropriately, you can take the hits. Add to this a good combination of artifacts (damage debuff) and why not.. The fact that everyone do one way doesn't mean it's the only way. Yes, you wont get it done in 20 tries, but lets be honest, most groups wont get it done in 50 anyway.

    You can help and gear an OP. Start on preview, take someone who knows what they are doing, and willing to OP (if you have enough people to begin with) and gear them there for free. Start training, if you get to the point that you can do it, chip in and help them get there on live.

    Do like some do and spam every grouping channel conceivable "lf OP exped tomm"..

    Or last but not least, reach out, alliance, discords, etc.. There are people who are willing to learn, help them to help you. make groups, ask to join groups... This is valid to the 9432085490 DPS that compete for the 6 slots, as the much fewer DCs that compete or 1. Same issues.

    In any case, whatever combination of people you have, you shouldn't have waited for live, go preview, train, check those guides, when you can write that you know what you are doing you already a step above many others that we see left and right now. You can do very well without an OP for first and second phases.


    2:
    DC and SW are not simply left out. You think that you were not invited because there is a need for OP, but lets think of this, if tomorrow all the healing OP become suddenly DC, you think you would have been invited so much faster? Your chances are indeed better, but there are many factors here, like was pointed out. People do not like unknowns, they will always rather invite someone they know, or proven. Either for reasons of skill, or attitude or many other reasons, but it all comes to that, for others you are a pug, and that is not to your advantage. Like I wrote earlier, it is the same if you were a CW or TR.

    3: True, and sucks, could have been worse, could have been a single role class that doesn't work well. If 5 wizards can carry a monkey with a keyboard though, not so sure about that.



    "Let´s say: Clerics that does not have a ToMM-valid group on their guild or channel are very unlikely to enter ToMM with any chance of success, even if they are well geared an capable. "

    And what difference the class makes here? You think CW or TR or HR or whatever, are exempt of the hardships of grouping in the wilds. Same HAMSTER everywhere.
    But the point of contention here, is that you decided that you failed before you even did something about it. At least to my impression, so you looked for a group, you didn't find, so here we are.
    This is a "gave up" situation. As I've wrote, either go further, or work with what you have. You know what, even if you do not complete it, isn't trying with your friends is what the game is all about? For me it is.
  • paulamyo#4926
    paulamyo#4926 Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    I don´t know where you read that I have given up. I just said that my guild will try it even knowing that it will be near impossible for us. If I´m entering ToMM from the minute 1 is precissely to have some guidance for them wen we try and so we have some distance advanced towards the inevitable failure.

    I have entered and will continue entering ToMM many times to learn, with groups that have 0% chance of finishing, just for learning.

    Why do you assume that I´m not capable of understand that it is difficult and I need some practice and khowledge for doing it correctly? You are not the only one that khow how this works, so don´t talk like that is the case.

    My post is for making it clear that my oppinion right now it that I´m very dissapointed that the imbalance between classes makes this trial a very difference experience for ones and others. At least LoMM at its first days was difficult but all classes where strugling more or less the same to learn the mechanics.

    This is not a "learn the mechanics" or "equip correcltly" issue that i´m talking about, I´m aware of those and know how to deal with them. Surprise, you are not the only one that can do that.

    The problem is the "Your class is bad, don´t bother me with your presence" problem.
  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User

    Hi!

    I had some aticipation and ilussion to enter ToMM with my DC. I have been preparing for some time, getting companions and equipment with the sole intention to be able to enter and finish ToMM.

    I am very dissapointed when I have discovered that my DC is not wanted as healer because of the need of the paladin shields, as without them it seems near impossible to finish ToMM, and my DC is not wanted as DPS because it´s not a wizard or a rogue.

    This trial at this point seems designed for 4 classes, and HAMSTER the rest.

    Thanks for the dissapointment.

    This is not true at all.
    Took was in early/closed preview.
    Took ran ToMM a few times in early/closed preview on my DC.
    Sucked, but that doesn't really count because it has been patched many times since then.

    But have run/won ToMM several times since then on preview w my DC... (spoiler) when running PREMADE with friends who read the guides and did strategy pregame communication.

    At LEAST one OP healer is greatly needed.
    But DC is not at all excluded.

    "Optimal" does not mean "mandatory".

    As in all things NW related, Took suggest you...

    1) Read the guides/watch the YT videos
    2) Do not PUG.
    Make your own party from Guildies/Alliance/Friends.

    In premade party, YOU make the rules. Frak the flavor-of-the-day meta.

    Your DC is only excluded because you are making yourself a slave to the fickle and uninformed whims of LFG.
    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • micky1p00
    micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,540 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    I don´t know where you read that I have given up. I just said that my guild will try it even knowing that it will be near impossible for us. If I´m entering ToMM from the minute 1 is precissely to have some guidance for them wen we try and so we have some distance advanced towards the inevitable failure.

    I have entered and will continue entering ToMM many times to learn, with groups that have 0% chance of finishing, just for learning.

    From "Clerics that does not have a ToMM-valid group on their guild or channel are very unlikely to enter ToMM with any chance of success"

    Sounds to me like "I will never going to succeed", and you even wrote above "distance advanced towards the inevitable failure"
    Yes, failure is likely per run, but it doesn't mean that overall, your group and you can't succeed, there are several ways, with OP, without OP. So yes, looked to me like you gave up on success, which I don't agree with. If you didn't, then all the better.


    Why do you assume that I´m not capable of understand that it is difficult and I need some practice and khowledge for doing it correctly?

    Why you think I've even implied something like that? All I've said that if you wanted some advantage over other DCs on the spot, where many will be known friends or players to those who make the groups, you need some of a head start, if you had it, good, if not, then not.


    You are not the only one that khow how this works, so don´t talk like that is the case.

    I don't know if it's a blue moon, or the stars align in some way? Where I've said that I know something special, I've suggested to you some practical things.
    Don't like it, fine, I guess indeed the post intent was just for some sympathy for poor DCs, shame though that the current DC situation is much much better than many other classes and roles, Hello Barbie DPS, SW DPS, etc..


    My post is for making it clear that my oppinion right now it that I´m very dissapointed that the imbalance between classes makes this trial a very difference experience for ones and others. At least LoMM at its first days was difficult but all classes where strugling more or less the same to learn the mechanics.

    Yes, there is imbalance, shame though that DCs are actually in a good spot in all the imbalance mess.


    This is not a "learn the mechanics" or "equip correcltly" issue that i´m talking about, I´m aware of those and know how to deal with them. Surprise, you are not the only one that can do that.

    1. Where I've even implied that I'm the only one that can do anything? Actually I'm not 100% sure of the combination of damage debuff and defense debuff that will need to both do it without OP and pass the DPS check, and minimal investment into HP.

    2. If you know and understand what needs to be done for the above, to run without OP, then why not do it?


    The problem is the "Your class is bad, don´t bother me with your presence" problem.

    This is great, but as was repeatedly proven, doesn't apply to healer DC. DPS DC, sure, for some, mostly pugs, healer NO.
  • paulamyo#4926
    paulamyo#4926 Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    I love this.

    You both say more or less:

    YOU ARE WRONG. On the dps part you are right, but YOU ARE WRONG. On the healer part a paladin is greatly needed, DC its just ok, but YOU ARE WRONG.

    facepalm
    Post edited by paulamyo#4926 on
  • sobi#1980
    sobi#1980 Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    devilxjk said:

    just tomm is not for all, you have to wait for mod 18 like others. It's like an "extra content". Take it easy.

    i would only ask to @asterdahl if they are also monitoring which classe are playing Tomm to balance in mod 18

    So damn rude! Give me back my by $200 dollars i spend over time to reach Bis, just to be told that my class is not needed at end game. Apparently a warlock complements the paladin much better in TOMM and lots of my guild mates also don't like DC's.

    Just because TOMM was completed with a DC in group doesn't mean that DC's have it easy. Take for example a wizard 150k power and 200k power. Both can finish it but the latter will have it much easier. I am a DC main but have not tried TOMM as of yet but so far the perception is telling me that DC's are not wanted for their main paragon lmao. Any DC who has completed it with around same requirements that pallies require, can they give some insight onto this? All i see are non DC main's sprinkling salt on our wounds.
  • nigantar
    nigantar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 28 Arc User
    what do u mean with "requirements"? stats n stuff?
  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    devilxjk said:

    just tomm is not for all, you have to wait for mod 18 like others. It's like an "extra content". Take it easy.

    i would only ask to @asterdahl if they are also monitoring which classe are playing Tomm to balance in mod 18

    So damn rude! Give me back my by $200 dollars i spend over time to reach Bis, just to be told that my class is not needed at end game. Apparently a warlock complements the paladin much better in TOMM and lots of my guild mates also don't like DC's.

    Just because TOMM was completed with a DC in group doesn't mean that DC's have it easy. Take for example a wizard 150k power and 200k power. Both can finish it but the latter will have it much easier. I am a DC main but have not tried TOMM as of yet but so far the perception is telling me that DC's are not wanted for their main paragon lmao. Any DC who has completed it with around same requirements that pallies require, can they give some insight onto this? All i see are non DC main's sprinkling salt on our wounds.
    apparently u know nothing about the trial, just assume things, and come to the forum to complain for the sake of complaining.
    Most finished runs were with a DC, but u conviniently ingore that. U cry about your guild excluding your cleric, when that is not the Problem of ToMM or this community, but only of your guild.
    And somehow u know that a CW with 150k Power can finish the Trial, when u havent even entered once.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    The misconception about a pally is better than a DC that has been widespread are due to people only talk about the obvious ( pally's shield ) but never talk about those that is there but isn't obvious. Such as pally's low heal magnitude and their high divinity consumption ( DC heals 600 magnitude 140 divinity cost vs pally 350 magnitude 100 divinity cost ). Everyone thought of pally shield as 350 mag heal + 350 shield = 700hp > 600 heal mag of a DC. The problem is that does not represent all the fact but a part of it. I have already explain it in other thread but I guess I'll copy paste it here again.



    "Let me give u a better illustration in a situation where DC heal are better than pally. When a person with 500k hp is hit 350k damage by a boss leaving him with 150k hp and the healer only have time to cast 3 heal before the next 350k land again.

    For pally case, lets say he heals for 70k. The first heal provide 70k heal + 70k shield, 2nd and 3rd provide only 70k heal each since shield don't stack. Total of 210k hp are healed with 70k shield provided. That give the person 150k + 210k + 70k shield = 360k hp + 70k shield. The next attack, 360k hp + 70k shield - 350k damage = 80k hp + 0 shield. For the next attack, the person hp is left with 10k hp and the next, he is dead.

    For DC case, since pally heals for 70k ( with 350 magnitude ), with the same stat, cleric will heal at 120k ( with 600 magnitude ). Total heal = 120k x 3 = 360k. That will give the person 150k hp + 360k heal = 500k with 10k over heal. The next attack will leave the person 150k hp again. Again the DC heal for 360k hp and the person is back to full again.

    That's is what happen when u fight boss like Ras'nisi. That extra layer of protection only bring pally heal to DC heal level for the first heal. Shield do not stack, that brings pally heal down to half as effective as DC heal. Does pally save more divinity in this case? Even if he does, whats the point? The person is dead. Does pally perform better than DC in this case? Does the 10k overheal matter? I don't think so. How effective does both of this healer heal is situational and rely on their healing pros and cons. What u see are just pros of pally heal but failed to see the pros of DC heal."



    That's a situation where pally heals fail and DC heals prevail. It put pally at a much inferior position than a DC because its an unavoidable spiral of doom when the pally fail to out heal the damage. That is why they are given feat to enhance their shield (emissary of warding ) and a feat to proc those shield ( critical touch ) to compensate their low heals. That makes pally a luck based healer since their normal heals are bad and their reliance on proccing Emissary of warding.

    Some people may argue using valaruos strike will cause shield to proc 24/7 but I can say that is not entirely true. I have tested the loadout myself and I can say it proc frequently but not indefinitely. Once the crit shield stop proc, that's when pally are going to have trouble. Not just their low heal magnitude are giving them a hard time to recover the group hp, but they are too busy spamming heal to be able to hit the mob to continue their critical touch proc. In addition to that, their divinity consumption is much more expensive than DC which caused pally to burn more divinity that DC do under stressful situation. In short, pally rely heavily on critical shield to keep his group safe and they are very divinity sensitive. They can't handle prolong spam of heal. When their critical touch stop procing, that's when they start spiral down the hill.

    That is why for a trial like Tomm, u need a high healing rate healer to accompany the pally. Else, the fate of that group are hanging upon the pally's luck to proc of his critical touch shield. Once that fail, its an inevitable wipe when the pally are unable to out heal the damage or proc any crits. A lot of people who don't play pally, does not know this. They only see the obvious that's the pally ability to proc a huge shield but when the pally fail to save them from the boreworm phase, they blame pally for being bad without knowing that its actually those kind of situation that are pally's archilies heel. So when 4 scorpion situation happen during triobran phase, I wont be surprise if pally are unable to cope when he fail to proc his critical touch. Sorry about the wall of text but I find it a necessity to clarify things up.

    Off topic, an advice for people out there, try not to let your pally spam too much heal. When u see your pally spamming heal, its a sign that his divinity are gonna run dry sooner than u think.
    Post edited by kangkeok on
  • devilxjk
    devilxjk Member Posts: 97 Arc User
    i have to be more specific, so i spoke for "dps side" so DC/barb/fighter/warlock, are totaly out of the games

  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    sobi#1980 said:

    devilxjk said:

    just tomm is not for all, you have to wait for mod 18 like others. It's like an "extra content". Take it easy.

    i would only ask to @asterdahl if they are also monitoring which classe are playing Tomm to balance in mod 18

    So damn rude! Give me back my by $200 dollars i spend over time to reach Bis, just to be told that my class is not needed at end game. Apparently a warlock complements the paladin much better in TOMM and lots of my guild mates also don't like DC's.

    Just because TOMM was completed with a DC in group doesn't mean that DC's have it easy. Take for example a wizard 150k power and 200k power. Both can finish it but the latter will have it much easier. I am a DC main but have not tried TOMM as of yet but so far the perception is telling me that DC's are not wanted for their main paragon lmao. Any DC who has completed it with around same requirements that pallies require, can they give some insight onto this? All i see are non DC main's sprinkling salt on our wounds.
    nigantar said:

    Ok....let me put it that way.....i am a Devout-DC and i have beaten the trial 10 times by now....how can u even think that dc´s are not welcome in ToMM-groups? If u can handle the mechanics and u know what to do u will always be welcome ;)

    nigantar said:

    what do u mean with "requirements"? stats n stuff?

    @sobi#1980 Feel free to ask him. I don't really care what the general perception is when there are only 2 groups which have completed the trial and my group is 1 of them. We are telling you dc works in the trial. Maybe, instead of listening to the random BS people say in channels, look at the @handles of the people with rings on the AH and then look to who is giving advice in this thread.
  • johonxgalt
    johonxgalt Member Posts: 93 Arc User
    What is funny to me is that the DC was probably the most desired class for a very very long time. Most runs were 2 DC, a tank, a DPS and the last depended on the content.

    I cannot recall any DC prior to mod 16 coming on the forums saying it was not fair that they got to join any group but others could not.

    Every class has its time to shine, DC and GWF had a very long run as leader of the pack. Time to let a few other classes shine.
  • paulamyo#4926
    paulamyo#4926 Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    What is funny to me is that the DC was probably the most desired class for a very very long time. Most runs were 2 DC, a tank, a DPS and the last depended on the content.

    I cannot recall any DC prior to mod 16 coming on the forums saying it was not fair that they got to join any group but others could not.

    Every class has its time to shine, DC and GWF had a very long run as leader of the pack. Time to let a few other classes shine.

    I can understand people thinking like that: ey, others suffered before, you can suffer now. I have played other classes before. I have been on the winning side sometimes, and on the losing side other times. I dont like it anyway. It is worse when the imbalance gets to the point where you need specific classes to end the content.

    I say: I want more or less class balance now! No mandatory classes, no classes let out of content because they should DPS but cant.

    I´m being told several times: developers are aware of the imbalance and will be addresing it in the future. But this game allways had big class imbalances. And allways they are being taking care "in the future".

    Then YEARS pass, and some new module arrives. I understand the necessity of new content to maintain player base, but it clearly pushes the balance issue down in the priority line. And new module introduces new unbalance. And you are told again: it will be taken care in the future.

    I like to DPS with my DC. I like it very much. I was not complaining (at lest in the forum) of the imbalance with other classes (the ones that have it better,and the ones that have it worse) because at least LoMM can be done with any class. You need to know the mecanics, it will be 22 minutes or 30, but if you do well you will finish it.

    Thats not the case with ToMM. And I´m not ok with that.

    Edit: I´m not asking to lower the difficulty of ToMM, just give us an even chance.
    Post edited by paulamyo#4926 on
  • paulamyo#4926
    paulamyo#4926 Member Posts: 73 Arc User
    To the people saying: Ey, the group that made it several times had a DC.

    Yeah, I know that. And perhaps if I switch that DC with mine and do it with the same group I can do it. I´m not saying otherwise.

    The problem is that even if with my guild or other groups we have a party of well geared, mechanics knowing people we have it much more difficult if we dont have a healer paladin and most of the DPSs are from the "not-best" classes.

    Its the almost mandatory classes thing that bothers me here.
  • planestrider#4331
    planestrider#4331 Member Posts: 60 Arc User
    So this causes one major problem: Casual players may grind as hard as they want, they're left out. In theory, a random party needs to be able to run the content. All that happens otherwise is the same as here: Those left behind lifting their voice, and those who are able to run the top tier content (not all, but an obvious and loud amount) telling them to shut up, blaming them in the process.
    Seriously, the ingame situation is bad enough as it is, but comments like "the problem is you" and "do you have everything maxed out?", passive aggression, gaslighting and half-hidden provocation all over the place, really makes me want to quit. And while I'm aware that some people never change, the game in its current state is at fault as well due to its structures kindling such behavior.
  • dread4moor
    dread4moor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,154 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    devilxjk said:

    just tomm is not for all, you have to wait for mod 18 like others. It's like an "extra content". Take it easy.

    i would only ask to @asterdahl if they are also monitoring which classe are playing Tomm to balance in mod 18

    So damn rude! Give me back my by $200 dollars i spend over time to reach Bis, just to be told that my class is not needed at end game. Apparently a warlock complements the paladin much better in TOMM and lots of my guild mates also don't like DC's.
    Any DC who has completed it with around same requirements that pallies require, can they give some insight onto this? All i see are non DC main's sprinkling salt on our wounds.
    Full BiS can be purchased for only $200?
    Damn. Took missed that zen store sale. Hope they bring it back.

    Look, mate, this has happened many many times before.
    Content favors one class or meta build over others.

    Anyone remember the broken OP "Bubbledin"? No other tank would do.
    GF ITF power stacking? Made GFs must-have in party.
    TR SoD one-shotting Orcus? Why take any other main DPS?

    Sheep spam "LF meta class with X stat and X gear and X item level only".
    Then the tears start flowing in forum.
    It's your own fault for buying into the myth of LFG wisdom.
    Most LFG posts are blindly following rumors, not doing research.

    As has been repeatedly said:

    Read the guides and then gather friends/guildies/alliances and ...
    Make. Your. Own. Party.

    It can be done w a DC.


    JrUzbQw.jpg?1
    I am Took.
    "Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
  • tom#6998
    tom#6998 Member Posts: 952 Arc User

    So this causes one major problem: Casual players may grind as hard as they want, they're left out. In theory, a random party needs to be able to run the content. All that happens otherwise is the same as here: Those left behind lifting their voice, and those who are able to run the top tier content (not all, but an obvious and loud amount) telling them to shut up, blaming them in the process.
    Seriously, the ingame situation is bad enough as it is, but comments like "the problem is you" and "do you have everything maxed out?", passive aggression, gaslighting and half-hidden provocation all over the place, really makes me want to quit. And while I'm aware that some people never change, the game in its current state is at fault as well due to its structures kindling such behavior.

    ToMM isnt in Random que, the devs stated the dont expect any random Party to be able to complete it. So no, even in Theory a random party DOES NOT need to be able to beat ToMM.
  • kangkeok
    kangkeok Member Posts: 1,123 Arc User
    edited August 2019

    To the people saying: Ey, the group that made it several times had a DC.

    Yeah, I know that. And perhaps if I switch that DC with mine and do it with the same group I can do it. I´m not saying otherwise.

    The problem is that even if with my guild or other groups we have a party of well geared, mechanics knowing people we have it much more difficult if we dont have a healer paladin and most of the DPSs are from the "not-best" classes.

    Its the almost mandatory classes thing that bothers me here.

    In my opinion, it is almost as mandatory to have a DC/SW in the group as did with a pally. While pally shield is good, the group still need a high magnitude healer just in case big shield don't proc or got eaten up by huge damage faster than the pally could proc a new shield.

    Also, in a 10 man trial, 2 spot are for healer class. That means the role for shield provider and high healing rate healer could co-exist. Why fighting for the spot when the role of those 2 type of healer are different? One is to provide shield while the other are to provide heals? Why compare an apple with an orange on which is better? Why feel that DC are less needed in Tomm than a pally when the role that they fill are different? If u want to fill the role of a shield provider, u could just play as a pally.
  • sobi#1980
    sobi#1980 Member Posts: 401 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    micky1p00 said:

    I was expecting only some constructive responses, and oviously I was not getting that.

    The only thing that I expect is that the classes are balanced and some class is not the one necessary for the content. Would you go to ToMM with a DC and a SW? Most people wouldn´t, as I can see for the classes asked.

    And you are all talking all about healers, but DC is not designed only as a healer. All of you are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as a healer. Why is Arbiter so back that you even don´t mention the posssibility to enter as DPS?

    Because your main complain it about a healer and you compared to OP on several of your posts.

    Did you buy all your companions and gear as DPS or as a healer? If I were you, and can't afford both, I would gear a healer, because there is practically an assured spot there.

    Now why is it important if I go with a DC and an SW, or not, or DC and OP, the DC is there anyway, or you are a DC. You have a spot, your argument is moot.


    Constructive doesn't mean jump on the 'agree' bandwagon and support your 'infallible' arguments.
    When you are simply wrong, you are simply wrong.

    You were constructively shown that you are wrong, and what to do about it. It's up to you know try to either wriggle this argument with no end, or go and form a group..
    Groups for end-game ( a true end-game ) are not pugs, you need guild, friends, and the 'networking' it takes, or you can ofc form a pug group, did we see you do, "Looking for 2 tanks, 4 DPS for TOMM?" I guess not.
    NOPE , OP's argument is far from moot. Pallies get a guaranteed spot because of their shields, the top 3 dps are always the choice and fighter/barbs are good tanks. Heck you can even go pally tank.

    The odd ones are DC and SW as both can never go TOMM as dps unless they are Bis x 2. SW however is better ST healer and complements Pally the best and as the latest TOMM guide also recommends. DC is needed and probs is played more than SW, but the point still stands that healing is their main paragon. They should even be above pallies since they can also tank, just because another class is suffering i.e. warlocks, that doesn't make our complaints moot.

    If some DC's that have finished ToMM can comment about the gear they used, then things will be simplified. Even a 150k power dps can finish TOMM but a 200k can do it even better but 50k at end game is a hefty amount. In short, if DC's are required to go much more gear for the same content as pallies then that is a serious issue to begin with and the same goes for warlocks.

    These 2 classes are suffering the most, don't act like you main them and have spend 100's of dollars and hours into this game to reach BiS. I can relate and i know how it feels. Heck, i don't even want to go healer but i understand other classes are in the same boat.
  • mebengalsfan#9264
    mebengalsfan#9264 Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    sobi said:

    NOPE , OP's argument is far from moot. Pallies get a guaranteed spot because of their shields, the top 3 dps are always the choice and fighter/barbs are good tanks. Heck you can even go pally tank.

    The odd ones are DC and SW as both can never go TOMM as dps unless they are Bis x 2. SW however is better ST healer and complements Pally the best and as the latest TOMM guide also recommends. DC is needed and probs is played more than SW, but the point still stands that healing is their main paragon. They should even be above pallies since they can also tank, just because another class is suffering i.e. warlocks, that doesn't make our complaints moot.

    If some DC's that have finished ToMM can comment about the gear they used, then things will be simplified. Even a 150k power dps can finish TOMM but a 200k can do it even better but 50k at end game is a hefty amount. In short, if DC's are required to go much more gear for the same content as pallies then that is a serious issue to begin with and the same goes for warlocks.

    These 2 classes are suffering the most, don't act like you main them and have spend 100's of dollars and hours into this game to reach BiS. I can relate and i know how it feels. Heck, i don't even want to go healer but i understand other classes are in the same boat.

    As a healer clerics are getting into ToMM but as damage dealer forget it. If you are not getting into ToMM and have the stats, start your own group and since you are a healer that is one less support role you need to find.
  • thefabricant
    thefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    sobi#1980 said:

    micky1p00 said:

    I was expecting only some constructive responses, and oviously I was not getting that.

    The only thing that I expect is that the classes are balanced and some class is not the one necessary for the content. Would you go to ToMM with a DC and a SW? Most people wouldn´t, as I can see for the classes asked.

    And you are all talking all about healers, but DC is not designed only as a healer. All of you are assuming that if I enter ToMM, it will be as a healer. Why is Arbiter so back that you even don´t mention the posssibility to enter as DPS?

    Because your main complain it about a healer and you compared to OP on several of your posts.

    Did you buy all your companions and gear as DPS or as a healer? If I were you, and can't afford both, I would gear a healer, because there is practically an assured spot there.

    Now why is it important if I go with a DC and an SW, or not, or DC and OP, the DC is there anyway, or you are a DC. You have a spot, your argument is moot.


    Constructive doesn't mean jump on the 'agree' bandwagon and support your 'infallible' arguments.
    When you are simply wrong, you are simply wrong.

    You were constructively shown that you are wrong, and what to do about it. It's up to you know try to either wriggle this argument with no end, or go and form a group..
    Groups for end-game ( a true end-game ) are not pugs, you need guild, friends, and the 'networking' it takes, or you can ofc form a pug group, did we see you do, "Looking for 2 tanks, 4 DPS for TOMM?" I guess not.
    NOPE , OP's argument is far from moot. Pallies get a guaranteed spot because of their shields, the top 3 dps are always the choice and fighter/barbs are good tanks. Heck you can even go pally tank.

    The odd ones are DC and SW as both can never go TOMM as dps unless they are Bis x 2. SW however is better ST healer and complements Pally the best and as the latest TOMM guide also recommends. DC is needed and probs is played more than SW, but the point still stands that healing is their main paragon. They should even be above pallies since they can also tank, just because another class is suffering i.e. warlocks, that doesn't make our complaints moot.

    If some DC's that have finished ToMM can comment about the gear they used, then things will be simplified. Even a 150k power dps can finish TOMM but a 200k can do it even better but 50k at end game is a hefty amount.
    nigantar said:

    with 140k power/ 140k crit ( round about ) u should be fine + 80k def and 85k crit-avoid and like 380k hp

  • sobi#1980
    sobi#1980 Member Posts: 401 Arc User

    sobi#1980 said:

    devilxjk said:

    just tomm is not for all, you have to wait for mod 18 like others. It's like an "extra content". Take it easy.

    i would only ask to @asterdahl if they are also monitoring which classe are playing Tomm to balance in mod 18

    So damn rude! Give me back my by $200 dollars i spend over time to reach Bis, just to be told that my class is not needed at end game. Apparently a warlock complements the paladin much better in TOMM and lots of my guild mates also don't like DC's.
    Any DC who has completed it with around same requirements that pallies require, can they give some insight onto this? All i see are non DC main's sprinkling salt on our wounds.
    Full BiS can be purchased for only $200?
    Damn. Took missed that zen store sale. Hope they bring it back.

    Look, mate, this has happened many many times before.
    Content favors one class or meta build over others.

    Anyone remember the broken OP "Bubbledin"? No other tank would do.
    GF ITF power stacking? Made GFs must-have in party.
    TR SoD one-shotting Orcus? Why take any other main DPS?

    Sheep spam "LF meta class with X stat and X gear and X item level only".
    Then the tears start flowing in forum.
    It's your own fault for buying into the myth of LFG wisdom.
    Most LFG posts are blindly following rumors, not doing research.

    As has been repeatedly said:

    Read the guides and then gather friends/guildies/alliances and ...
    Make. Your. Own. Party.

    It can be done w a DC.



    Want me to show you the proof of me spending over $200? Its gone higher now btw. I don't know what you mean by Bis can be pruchased by $200 because a Bis leg mount is 11mil AD minimum! That alone is $119 lmao.

    Then one r15 enchantment is 2.5mil i.e. radiants. That alone is ... do the maths for each enchantment and bondings. Its way over $200.

    Also, i joined after the jubilee sale and i am 21.6k AC with mostly Bis gear and baphomet set. Just doing my boons at the moment which should easily take me to 22.5k +.

    I don't want my class to shine, at least don't give me sht like wait till next module to play the latest content. Have ran LoMM million times now, what do you want me to do? Then when new content comes and i get hyped to go as dps, i am reminded that its not even a option lol. When i try to go healer, i am told that you have to do harder than a pally of the same gear. No matter where you look, there is a disadvantage which if you check my 2nd post, only DC and SW are going through as of now. A small buffs is all we asking, why have you got your pants on fire for?

  • aixis2000
    aixis2000 Member Posts: 211 Arc User
    edited August 2019
    2 groups could do it already, awesome , gratz!

    Post edited by aixis2000 on